Mailing List Archive

Hoi,
It is because of the "qqq" messages that there is such a great reason to
localise at Betawiki. When you are one of the first to localise a message,
it can take a considerable amount of effort to learn what a message is
about. Much of this pain is taken away by the Betawiki developers, but there
is still a fair amount of documentation that needs to be done.

The person best situated to create the help text is the developer of the
software; he/she knows best what the message is there for. It is also an
excellent investment in time as it will benefit the 298 languages that we
currently support.

When you localise, there are indeed two parts to it; there is the general
localisation that is done best at Betawiki and there are the adaptations
that are the result of project specific needs. I am of the opinion that it
is best to first get the standard localisation done because it makes it much
easier for the whole of the community to understand what specific changes
are needed.

I am quite happy to state that this is my strong opinion. I disagree however
that a community always has primacy in considerations like this. Most
relevant are the arguments behind the opinions expressed. When the community
has good arguments they can get their way, when they do not they should not.
The notion that I am not a member of the requesting community is irrelevant
to the quality of my arguments.

NB I blogged about the "qqq" messages today and included a screen dump.
http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2008/11/providing-context-to-localisers_18.html
Thanks,
GerardM

On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 7:54 AM, Dovi Jacobs <dovijacobs@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Gerard, thank you for your kind comments. I think the system you have set
> up at Betawiki is extraordinary, and is a fantastic tool for helping people
> access "the sum of all knowledge" in their own languages.
>
> The "qqq" messages are a fantastic idea (though I can't quite see where to
> find them of Betawiki...)
>
> For Hebrew we would like the extension set up with due haste. We prefer
> translating the messages when we can test their meanings in context and
> revise our translations accordingly. We also plan to make some important
> local modifications to the interface that are Wikisource-specific (such as
> the parameters for defining the quality of a page), but we cannot even begin
> to do so until the extension has been installed!
>
> This last factor is a need that Betawiki, outstanding as it is, cannot
> provide for.
>
> A good part of the interface has already been translated in any case. It
> would reflect good will on your part if you clarified that while your
> suggestions are personal recommendations, you nonetheless understand that
> the decisions of communities with other views should be honored and
> implemented.
>
> I ask the developers to implement the decision of the Hebrew Wikisource
> community as found in Bug 14648, along with the other languages that they
> have kindly implemented recently. We have been waiting for this for quite a
> long time, and will provide a quality localization of the system messages.
> While Gerard's views on localization-as-prerequisite-in-every-case are
> important to consider, he is not a member of the community that has
> requested the extension.
>
> Link: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14648
>
> Dovi
>
>
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On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 4:53 AM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am quite happy to state that this is my strong opinion. I disagree however
> that a community always has primacy in considerations like this. Most
> relevant are the arguments behind the opinions expressed. When the community
> has good arguments they can get their way, when they do not they should not.
> The notion that I am not a member of the requesting community is irrelevant
> to the quality of my arguments.

The policy for fulfilling shell requests is and has always been that
they will be fulfilled if agreement of the relevant community can be
demonstrated, and they're technically acceptable and in line with wiki
principles and so on (no $wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit'] = false;).
The opinions of those outside the community are AFAIK not considered
when fulfilling such requests, unless they point out technical
problems or similar.

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Hoi,
There is nothing in what you say what I have not already expressed. If an
argument has sufficient validity, it should be considered.
Thanks,
GerardM

On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Aryeh Gregor
<Simetrical+wikilist@gmail.com<Simetrical%2Bwikilist@gmail.com>
> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 4:53 AM, Gerard Meijssen
> <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I am quite happy to state that this is my strong opinion. I disagree
> however
> > that a community always has primacy in considerations like this. Most
> > relevant are the arguments behind the opinions expressed. When the
> community
> > has good arguments they can get their way, when they do not they should
> not.
> > The notion that I am not a member of the requesting community is
> irrelevant
> > to the quality of my arguments.
>
> The policy for fulfilling shell requests is and has always been that
> they will be fulfilled if agreement of the relevant community can be
> demonstrated, and they're technically acceptable and in line with wiki
> principles and so on (no $wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit'] = false;).
> The opinions of those outside the community are AFAIK not considered
> when fulfilling such requests, unless they point out technical
> problems or similar.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Dovi, you're already in the queue which is being worked through; should
be done within the next few days.

- -- brion

Dovi Jacobs wrote:
> Gerard, thank you for your kind comments. I think the system you have
> set up at Betawiki is extraordinary, and is a fantastic tool for
> helping people access "the sum of all knowledge" in their own
> languages.
>
> The "qqq" messages are a fantastic idea (though I can't quite see
> where to find them of Betawiki...)
>
> For Hebrew we would like the extension set up with due haste. We
> prefer translating the messages when we can test their meanings in
> context and revise our translations accordingly. We also plan to make
> some important local modifications to the interface that are
> Wikisource-specific (such as the parameters for defining the quality
> of a page), but we cannot even begin to do so until the extension has
> been installed!
>
> This last factor is a need that Betawiki, outstanding as it is,
> cannot provide for.
>
> A good part of the interface has already been translated in any case.
> It would reflect good will on your part if you clarified that while
> your suggestions are personal recommendations, you nonetheless
> understand that the decisions of communities with other views should
> be honored and implemented.
>
> I ask the developers to implement the decision of the Hebrew
> Wikisource community as found in Bug 14648, along with the other
> languages that they have kindly implemented recently. We have been
> waiting for this for quite a long time, and will provide a quality
> localization of the system messages. While Gerard's views on
> localization-as-prerequisite-in-every-case are important to consider,
> he is not a member of the community that has requested the extension.
>
>
> Link: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14648
>
> Dovi
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing
> list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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Dovi,
I really appreciate the work that is done to localise FlaggedRevs on
Betawiki.. I expect that this prepatory work will improve the success of the
implementation a lot. Currently FlaggedRevs is fully localised.
Thanks,
GerardM



2008/11/21 Brion Vibber <brion@wikimedia.org>

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Dovi, you're already in the queue which is being worked through; should
> be done within the next few days.
>
> - -- brion
>
> Dovi Jacobs wrote:
> > Gerard, thank you for your kind comments. I think the system you have
> > set up at Betawiki is extraordinary, and is a fantastic tool for
> > helping people access "the sum of all knowledge" in their own
> > languages.
> >
> > The "qqq" messages are a fantastic idea (though I can't quite see
> > where to find them of Betawiki...)
> >
> > For Hebrew we would like the extension set up with due haste. We
> > prefer translating the messages when we can test their meanings in
> > context and revise our translations accordingly. We also plan to make
> > some important local modifications to the interface that are
> > Wikisource-specific (such as the parameters for defining the quality
> > of a page), but we cannot even begin to do so until the extension has
> > been installed!
> >
> > This last factor is a need that Betawiki, outstanding as it is,
> > cannot provide for.
> >
> > A good part of the interface has already been translated in any case.
> > It would reflect good will on your part if you clarified that while
> > your suggestions are personal recommendations, you nonetheless
> > understand that the decisions of communities with other views should
> > be honored and implemented.
> >
> > I ask the developers to implement the decision of the Hebrew
> > Wikisource community as found in Bug 14648, along with the other
> > languages that they have kindly implemented recently. We have been
> > waiting for this for quite a long time, and will provide a quality
> > localization of the system messages. While Gerard's views on
> > localization-as-prerequisite-in-every-case are important to consider,
> > he is not a member of the community that has requested the extension.
> >
> >
> > Link: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14648
> >
> > Dovi
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing
> > list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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> =18ay
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Hi, we've entered December. Has my worry has come true, namely that interim discussion of localization would send the request to never-never land? It would be great if he.wikisource could be implemented :-)

In general, for those who are interested in the topic, information on the implementation of Flagged Reviews may be found at this page:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/FlaggedRevs

In my opinion, priority should be given to custom implementation at as many wikis as possible. Only in this way can its long-term effectiveness be tested. Great resources were rightfully invested in creating this extension, which is (in my opinion) an essential part of the functionality of a wiki environment. It is also, on a cultural level, a necessary tool for improving public attitudes about the reliability of wiki projects.

(The latter reason is, especially, the reason we want it on he.wikisource. Only with a function like this can we convince certain organizations to make their texts open-content, by guaranteeing that an authoritative version will appear on the wiki website, not subject at all to vandalism or to well-meaning deprecation.)

So let's get it implemented as widely as possible and track its effectiveness!

Dovi
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Dovi, you're already in the queue which is being worked through; should
> be done within the next few days.
>
> - -- brion






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Hoi,
With 93.68% of the messages for FlaggedRevs localised, I do argue that the
implementation of FlaggedRevs should be done when feasible for the Hebrew
Wikisource. The Hebrew community at Betawiki deserve to see the fruits of
their labout reflected in an implementation.
Thanks,
GerardM

2008/12/1 Dovi Jacobs <dovijacobs@yahoo.com>

> Hi, we've entered December. Has my worry has come true, namely that interim
> discussion of localization would send the request to never-never land? It
> would be great if he.wikisource could be implemented :-)
>
> In general, for those who are interested in the topic, information on the
> implementation of Flagged Reviews may be found at this page:
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/FlaggedRevs
>
> In my opinion, priority should be given to custom implementation at as many
> wikis as possible. Only in this way can its long-term effectiveness be
> tested. Great resources were rightfully invested in creating this extension,
> which is (in my opinion) an essential part of the functionality of a wiki
> environment. It is also, on a cultural level, a necessary tool for improving
> public attitudes about the reliability of wiki projects.
>
> (The latter reason is, especially, the reason we want it on he.wikisource.
> Only with a function like this can we convince certain organizations to make
> their texts open-content, by guaranteeing that an authoritative version will
> appear on the wiki website, not subject at all to vandalism or to
> well-meaning deprecation.)
>
> So let's get it implemented as widely as possible and track its
> effectiveness!
>
> Dovi
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Dovi, you're already in the queue which is being worked through; should
> > be done within the next few days.
> >
> > - -- brion
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Thanks Gerard.

Dovi

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] [Wikitech-l] FlaggedRevs status/news?
To: dovijacobs@yahoo.com, "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 2:54 AM

Hoi,
With 93.68% of the messages for FlaggedRevs localised, I do argue that the implementation of FlaggedRevs should be done when feasible for the Hebrew Wikisource. The Hebrew community at Betawiki deserve to see the fruits of their labout reflected in an implementation.

Thanks,
       GerardM

2008/12/1 Dovi Jacobs <dovijacobs@yahoo.com>

Hi, we've entered December. Has my worry has come true, namely that interim discussion of localization would send the request to never-never land? It would be great if he.wikisource could be implemented :-)



In general, for those who are interested in the topic, information on the implementation of Flagged Reviews may be found at this page:



http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/FlaggedRevs



In my opinion, priority should be given to custom implementation at as many wikis as possible. Only in this way can its long-term effectiveness be tested. Great resources were rightfully invested in creating this extension, which is (in my opinion) an essential part of the functionality of a wiki environment. It is also, on a cultural level, a necessary tool for improving public attitudes about the reliability of wiki projects.




(The latter reason is, especially, the reason we want it on he.wikisource. Only with a function like this can we convince certain organizations to make their texts open-content, by guaranteeing that an authoritative version will appear on the wiki website, not subject at all to vandalism or to well-meaning deprecation.)




So let's get it implemented as widely as possible and track its effectiveness!



Dovi

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> Hash: SHA1

>

> Dovi, you're already in the queue which is being worked through; should

> be done within the next few days.

>

> - -- brion













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Dovi Jacobs wrote:
> Hi, we've entered December. Has my worry has come true, namely that
> interim discussion of localization would send the request to
> never-never land?

No, localization is not at issue here and never has been.

You're in the queue:
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14648

and will be reached as time permits.

- -- brion
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