Mailing List Archive

Regarding the Fundraising Banner
Hello all,

I would appreciate it if you could copy & translate this message to
your relevant communities; I'll also post it to a couple of the
mailing lists.

First: Does Wikimedia have a funding crisis, does it need to ask
people for money?

The Wikimedia Foundation is a non-profit organization, and the vast
majority of its funding comes from fundraising and grants. It operates
more than 300 servers which keep Wikipedia alive, the associated
hosting and bandwidth, and the staff needed to support it. Its annual
expenses for the current fiscal year amount to approximately $6
million. We have already raised $2 million of that, which leaves us
with a gap of $4 million which we need to raise through donations
small and large.

If we fail to meet our budgeted revenue goals during and past this
fundraiser, we will eventually have to lay off staff and reduce our
capacity planning for servers and bandwidth, both of which will
directly affect your experience of Wikipedia. If you feel, for
example, that developers are often slow to respond to requests, well,
imagine how much worse it will be if we have to lay off some of them.
If you feel that editing is often slow, imagine how much worse it will
be if we cannot pay for additional servers or needed software
improvements.

As you know, the world is in economic crisis. At this point in time,
we do not know what the impact of this economic crisis will be on the
Wikimedia Foundation. We need to meet our targets to continue to
operate Wikipedia.

I realize that having a banner on the site you read and/or edit every
day is not convenient. We plan to create a smaller (plaintext) version
of the banner for signed in users. But we do not plan to reduce the
banner size of the standard banner, at least not until we have a
better idea of what the online fundraiser revenue will be for this
year. We are doing some systematic A/B testing of different banners
with different messages, and as we learn more, we will iterate the
banners further.

We do need to raise the funds to operate Wikipedia, so that you can
continue to use it, both as a reader and a contributor. Rather than
invite antagonism, I want to invite your collaboration in refining and
developing the banners. We are open to community suggestions here --
please feel free to post mock-ups on Meta Wiki at this page:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fundraising_2008/design_drafts

However, if we feel (or measure) that a banner will significantly
reduce the number of donations received, we will not use it. So if
your primary goal is to make the banner smaller or less "obtrusive",
rather than making it more effective or at least retaining its current
level of effectiveness, I don't think we'll come up with something
that can replace the current banners.

Please let's remember that the Wikimedia Foundation exists to support
this project's continued existence, and the Wikimedia movement
internationally. This means we need to create awareness for the fact
that we need to raise money, just like any other charity. This
fundraising drive will run until January 15. Until then, I ask for
your patience and cooperation in making it work.

Please feel free to contact me: erik(at)wikimedia(dot)org. Thanks,
Erik Möller 22:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

--
Erik Möller
Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
Erik Moeller schreef:
[cut]
> However, if we feel (or measure) that a banner will significantly
> reduce the number of donations received, we will not use it. So if
[cut]

about reducing the number of donations;

So far I can see is the main donation page ...

http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate/Now/en

... in all languages a plain translation of the EN donation page.

The commonly used way of payment differs from place to place. In some
country's people are almost born with a credit card in there pocket. In
other places a credit card is not used a lot and do most people do not
like to use it online if the have it.

In some country's the still use a lot cheques, in other country's many
people do not know anymore what that is because the are virtually exstinct.

My point is that by only translating but not localizing you have losses
of donations because the most suitable donation channel is not presented
clearly and potential donateurs can get driven away by the huge emphasis
on "Donate by credit card".

Walter

--
Contact: walter AT wikizine DOT org
Wikizine.org - news for and about the Wikimedia community


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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
Erik Moeller wrote:
> However, if we feel (or measure) that a banner will significantly
> reduce the number of donations received, we will not use it. So if
> your primary goal is to make the banner smaller or less "obtrusive",
> rather than making it more effective or at least retaining its current
> level of effectiveness, I don't think we'll come up with something
> that can replace the current banners.
Several things why banner should not be obtrusive:
1) Due to some differences in different cultures some people would
decide never to visit Wikipedia rather than to donate :(
2) The previous year banner looked like we asked people to donate us,
now we are *begging* them to donate us. The difference between asking
and begging is that begging is considered to be a very bad form. Read your
message. The first thought that people have when they see that banner is
"Oh no, they are also affected by financial crysis". Do we really want
to let people
think that? (see point one to answer this question)

--vvv

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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
2008/11/5 Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@gmail.com>:
> Several things why banner should not be obtrusive:
> 1) Due to some differences in different cultures some people would
> decide never to visit Wikipedia rather than to donate :(
>
> 2) The previous year banner looked like we asked people to donate us,
> now we are *begging* them to donate us. The difference between asking
> and begging is that begging is considered to be a very bad form. Read your
> message. The first thought that people have when they see that banner is
> "Oh no, they are also affected by financial crysis". Do we really want
> to let people
> think that? (see point one to answer this question)

Our goal is to actually track how these different messages perform. If
we find that making the messages smaller does not significantly affect
donations, we'll make them smaller. If we find that changing the tone
increases donations, we'll change the tone. We feel that the current
full-size appeal is an acceptable size for a once a year campaign,
especially once logged in users can fully collapse it easily. But
there's no reason to maintain this size if reducing it results in
equal or greater impact.

But, we don't want to make any assumptions.Yes, it is meant to attract
attention and give exposure to the fact that we're a charity which
relies on people's donations, something most people don't even know
about us. Attracting sufficient attention and giving sufficient
exposure to this messaging is a precondition to keeping the site
operational and taking our mission forward, and core to how Wikipedia
is currently sustained.
--
Erik Möller
Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
Erik Moeller wrote:
> 2008/11/5 Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@gmail.com>:
>> Several things why banner should not be obtrusive:
>> 1) Due to some differences in different cultures some people would
>> decide never to visit Wikipedia rather than to donate :(
>>
>> 2) The previous year banner looked like we asked people to donate us,
>> now we are *begging* them to donate us. The difference between asking
>> and begging is that begging is considered to be a very bad form. Read your
>> message. The first thought that people have when they see that banner is
>> "Oh no, they are also affected by financial crysis". Do we really want
>> to let people
>> think that? (see point one to answer this question)
>
> Our goal is to actually track how these different messages perform. If
> we find that making the messages smaller does not significantly affect
> donations, we'll make them smaller. If we find that changing the tone
> increases donations, we'll change the tone. We feel that the current
> full-size appeal is an acceptable size for a once a year campaign,
> especially once logged in users can fully collapse it easily. But
> there's no reason to maintain this size if reducing it results in
> equal or greater impact.
>
> But, we don't want to make any assumptions.Yes, it is meant to attract
> attention and give exposure to the fact that we're a charity which
> relies on people's donations, something most people don't even know
> about us. Attracting sufficient attention and giving sufficient
> exposure to this messaging is a precondition to keeping the site
> operational and taking our mission forward, and core to how Wikipedia
> is currently sustained.


Yeah. And this is true internationnally, not in the USA only.
Attracting attention of donors outside the USA should ALSO be your
mission. And attracting attention to the fact we are not only an
american organization should imho, also be your mission. What are you
doing to do that ?


Ant


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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
Walter is absolutely right. In the Netherlands for instance people transfer
money. They are used to transfer money within the country. Most people feel
uncomfortable in transferring money to Belgium. This means that the WMF
should have a Dutch banking account.

When you transfer money, it costs nothing. People in the Netherlands hate
fattening banks for no good reason. It is one reason why many just do not
use credit cards except for going abroad when you typically do not have a
choice. If you want Dutch people to massively contribute, you address them
and you address this issue.
Thanks,
GerardM

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 12:04 AM, Walter Vermeir <walter@wikipedia.be> wrote:

> Erik Moeller schreef:
> [cut]
> > However, if we feel (or measure) that a banner will significantly
> > reduce the number of donations received, we will not use it. So if
> [cut]
>
> about reducing the number of donations;
>
> So far I can see is the main donation page ...
>
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate/Now/en
>
> ... in all languages a plain translation of the EN donation page.
>
> The commonly used way of payment differs from place to place. In some
> country's people are almost born with a credit card in there pocket. In
> other places a credit card is not used a lot and do most people do not
> like to use it online if the have it.
>
> In some country's the still use a lot cheques, in other country's many
> people do not know anymore what that is because the are virtually exstinct.
>
> My point is that by only translating but not localizing you have losses
> of donations because the most suitable donation channel is not presented
> clearly and potential donateurs can get driven away by the huge emphasis
> on "Donate by credit card".
>
> Walter
>
> --
> Contact: walter AT wikizine DOT org
> Wikizine.org - news for and about the Wikimedia community
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
This is also true for Germans. I for example don't even have a credit card,
and I grew up in a time when international transferring of money did cost
extra (it should not do anymore, but most people don't know that). In the
explanation (in English only, for Germans) the Belgian account appears
anywhere in the end, below.

Besides the "localization", what Walter and Florence mentioned, a major
problem is the lack of a Wikimedia dictionary. The translations don't show a
full consistency, also not to other mentions of certain expressions. On
German language Wikimedia sites I find for "chapter":
* "Lokale Sektionen" (WMF "donate/de")
* "(nationale) Wikimedia-Organisationen" (WM-DE)
* "Schwesterorganisation (der Wikimedia Foundation)" (WM-AT)
* "Wikimedia-Verein" (WM-CH)
Especially the expression "local" is translated often too literally, where
it should be "national" or "Landes-". In German "lokal" means "related to a
town".

What would you think about a Wikimedia dictionary for such terms?

Ziko



2008/11/6 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>

> Hoi,
> Walter is absolutely right. In the Netherlands for instance people transfer
> money. They are used to transfer money within the country. Most people feel
> uncomfortable in transferring money to Belgium. This means that the WMF
> should have a Dutch banking account.
>
> When you transfer money, it costs nothing. People in the Netherlands hate
> fattening banks for no good reason. It is one reason why many just do not
> use credit cards except for going abroad when you typically do not have a
> choice. If you want Dutch people to massively contribute, you address them
> and you address this issue.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 12:04 AM, Walter Vermeir <walter@wikipedia.be>
> wrote:
>
> > Erik Moeller schreef:
> > [cut]
> > > However, if we feel (or measure) that a banner will significantly
> > > reduce the number of donations received, we will not use it. So if
> > [cut]
> >
> > about reducing the number of donations;
> >
> > So far I can see is the main donation page ...
> >
> > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate/Now/en
> >
> > ... in all languages a plain translation of the EN donation page.
> >
> > The commonly used way of payment differs from place to place. In some
> > country's people are almost born with a credit card in there pocket. In
> > other places a credit card is not used a lot and do most people do not
> > like to use it online if the have it.
> >
> > In some country's the still use a lot cheques, in other country's many
> > people do not know anymore what that is because the are virtually
> exstinct.
> >
> > My point is that by only translating but not localizing you have losses
> > of donations because the most suitable donation channel is not presented
> > clearly and potential donateurs can get driven away by the huge emphasis
> > on "Donate by credit card".
> >
> > Walter
> >
> > --
> > Contact: walter AT wikizine DOT org
> > Wikizine.org - news for and about the Wikimedia community
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
Ziko van Dijk
NL-Silvolde
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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
An international money transfer does cost as much in European Community as
it costs to transfer money within your country. This means that all
Europeans should be able to transfer money to Belgium at this same cost.
However, I have been told that some Italian banks do not comply with this
European directive.

However, as most people are not used to this, they will not consider
transferring money to Belgium. Also Ziko is right when he indicates that the
lack of prominence to bank transfers will ensure that people will only see
Paypal and credit cards... Paypal is hardly known by Europeans. Dutch banks
have an alternative way of paying a way that is somewhat cheaper then
Paypal.
Thanks,
Gerard


On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk@googlemail.com>wrote:

> This is also true for Germans. I for example don't even have a credit card,
> and I grew up in a time when international transferring of money did cost
> extra (it should not do anymore, but most people don't know that). In the
> explanation (in English only, for Germans) the Belgian account appears
> anywhere in the end, below.
>
> Besides the "localization", what Walter and Florence mentioned, a major
> problem is the lack of a Wikimedia dictionary. The translations don't show
> a
> full consistency, also not to other mentions of certain expressions. On
> German language Wikimedia sites I find for "chapter":
> * "Lokale Sektionen" (WMF "donate/de")
> * "(nationale) Wikimedia-Organisationen" (WM-DE)
> * "Schwesterorganisation (der Wikimedia Foundation)" (WM-AT)
> * "Wikimedia-Verein" (WM-CH)
> Especially the expression "local" is translated often too literally, where
> it should be "national" or "Landes-". In German "lokal" means "related to a
> town".
>
> What would you think about a Wikimedia dictionary for such terms?
>
> Ziko
>
>
>
> 2008/11/6 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
>
> > Hoi,
> > Walter is absolutely right. In the Netherlands for instance people
> transfer
> > money. They are used to transfer money within the country. Most people
> feel
> > uncomfortable in transferring money to Belgium. This means that the WMF
> > should have a Dutch banking account.
> >
> > When you transfer money, it costs nothing. People in the Netherlands hate
> > fattening banks for no good reason. It is one reason why many just do not
> > use credit cards except for going abroad when you typically do not have a
> > choice. If you want Dutch people to massively contribute, you address
> them
> > and you address this issue.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 12:04 AM, Walter Vermeir <walter@wikipedia.be>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Erik Moeller schreef:
> > > [cut]
> > > > However, if we feel (or measure) that a banner will significantly
> > > > reduce the number of donations received, we will not use it. So if
> > > [cut]
> > >
> > > about reducing the number of donations;
> > >
> > > So far I can see is the main donation page ...
> > >
> > > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate/Now/en
> > >
> > > ... in all languages a plain translation of the EN donation page.
> > >
> > > The commonly used way of payment differs from place to place. In some
> > > country's people are almost born with a credit card in there pocket. In
> > > other places a credit card is not used a lot and do most people do not
> > > like to use it online if the have it.
> > >
> > > In some country's the still use a lot cheques, in other country's many
> > > people do not know anymore what that is because the are virtually
> > exstinct.
> > >
> > > My point is that by only translating but not localizing you have losses
> > > of donations because the most suitable donation channel is not
> presented
> > > clearly and potential donateurs can get driven away by the huge
> emphasis
> > > on "Donate by credit card".
> > >
> > > Walter
> > >
> > > --
> > > Contact: walter AT wikizine DOT org
> > > Wikizine.org - news for and about the Wikimedia community
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Ziko van Dijk
> NL-Silvolde
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>
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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 10:58 AM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hoi,
> An international money transfer does cost as much in European Community as
> it costs to transfer money within your country. This means that all
> Europeans should be able to transfer money to Belgium at this same cost.
> However, I have been told that some Italian banks do not comply with this
> European directive.
>
> Some English banks will charge more for an international trandfer as well.
And furthermore, online banking normally does not allow international money
transfer. A debit/credit card is normally a better option...
Cruccone
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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 10:58 AM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> An international money transfer does cost as much in European Community as
> it costs to transfer money within your country. This means that all
> Europeans should be able to transfer money to Belgium at this same cost.
> However, I have been told that some Italian banks do not comply with this
> European directive.

It's true.

The countries which uses Euro or have some agreements with EU (ie
Switzerland) has reduced all costs for international money transfer in
Europe. Switzerland has followed this way at the end of this year.

A money transfer in Italy from Switzerland, for example, some months
ago has had a cost of 5 CHF, today some banks apply the some costs of
internal money transfer.

Ilario

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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
The United Kingdom is not part of the Eurozone. Consequently there are costs
and risks involved in transferring money. Credit cards are more expensive
and as Ziko indicated many Europeans just do not use them.
Thanks,
GerardM

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Marco Chiesa <chiesa.marco@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 10:58 AM, Gerard Meijssen
> <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > An international money transfer does cost as much in European Community
> as
> > it costs to transfer money within your country. This means that all
> > Europeans should be able to transfer money to Belgium at this same cost.
> > However, I have been told that some Italian banks do not comply with this
> > European directive.
> >
> > Some English banks will charge more for an international trandfer as
> well.
> And furthermore, online banking normally does not allow international money
> transfer. A debit/credit card is normally a better option...
> Cruccone
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
When I transfer money to Italy, I have done this in the past, there should
be no costs involved both to me and the recipient. At worst the recipient
should not pay more then he would for receiving money from within Italy.
Thanks,
GerardM

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:17 AM, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 10:58 AM, Gerard Meijssen
> <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > An international money transfer does cost as much in European Community
> as
> > it costs to transfer money within your country. This means that all
> > Europeans should be able to transfer money to Belgium at this same cost.
> > However, I have been told that some Italian banks do not comply with this
> > European directive.
>
> It's true.
>
> The countries which uses Euro or have some agreements with EU (ie
> Switzerland) has reduced all costs for international money transfer in
> Europe. Switzerland has followed this way at the end of this year.
>
> A money transfer in Italy from Switzerland, for example, some months
> ago has had a cost of 5 CHF, today some banks apply the some costs of
> internal money transfer.
>
> Ilario
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
By the way, talking to French and Swiss here, the translation of "donate
locally" for French has been suggested to be

"Donnez près de chez vous"

The sentence is slightly funny, but that's the best we could come up
with as "donate locally" simply does not translate well.

This is what will appear on the French speaking donation page, leading
to French and Swiss chapter.

If there are other suggestions, please speak up :-)

Ant

Ziko van Dijk wrote:
> This is also true for Germans. I for example don't even have a credit card,
> and I grew up in a time when international transferring of money did cost
> extra (it should not do anymore, but most people don't know that). In the
> explanation (in English only, for Germans) the Belgian account appears
> anywhere in the end, below.
>
> Besides the "localization", what Walter and Florence mentioned, a major
> problem is the lack of a Wikimedia dictionary. The translations don't show a
> full consistency, also not to other mentions of certain expressions. On
> German language Wikimedia sites I find for "chapter":
> * "Lokale Sektionen" (WMF "donate/de")
> * "(nationale) Wikimedia-Organisationen" (WM-DE)
> * "Schwesterorganisation (der Wikimedia Foundation)" (WM-AT)
> * "Wikimedia-Verein" (WM-CH)
> Especially the expression "local" is translated often too literally, where
> it should be "national" or "Landes-". In German "lokal" means "related to a
> town".
>
> What would you think about a Wikimedia dictionary for such terms?
>
> Ziko
>
>
>
> 2008/11/6 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
>
>> Hoi,
>> Walter is absolutely right. In the Netherlands for instance people transfer
>> money. They are used to transfer money within the country. Most people feel
>> uncomfortable in transferring money to Belgium. This means that the WMF
>> should have a Dutch banking account.
>>
>> When you transfer money, it costs nothing. People in the Netherlands hate
>> fattening banks for no good reason. It is one reason why many just do not
>> use credit cards except for going abroad when you typically do not have a
>> choice. If you want Dutch people to massively contribute, you address them
>> and you address this issue.
>> Thanks,
>> GerardM
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 12:04 AM, Walter Vermeir <walter@wikipedia.be>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Erik Moeller schreef:
>>> [cut]
>>>> However, if we feel (or measure) that a banner will significantly
>>>> reduce the number of donations received, we will not use it. So if
>>> [cut]
>>>
>>> about reducing the number of donations;
>>>
>>> So far I can see is the main donation page ...
>>>
>>> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate/Now/en
>>>
>>> ... in all languages a plain translation of the EN donation page.
>>>
>>> The commonly used way of payment differs from place to place. In some
>>> country's people are almost born with a credit card in there pocket. In
>>> other places a credit card is not used a lot and do most people do not
>>> like to use it online if the have it.
>>>
>>> In some country's the still use a lot cheques, in other country's many
>>> people do not know anymore what that is because the are virtually
>> exstinct.
>>> My point is that by only translating but not localizing you have losses
>>> of donations because the most suitable donation channel is not presented
>>> clearly and potential donateurs can get driven away by the huge emphasis
>>> on "Donate by credit card".
>>>
>>> Walter
>>>
>>> --
>>> Contact: walter AT wikizine DOT org
>>> Wikizine.org - news for and about the Wikimedia community
>>>
>>>
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>
>
>


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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@...> writes:
> Hoi,
> Walter is absolutely right. In the Netherlands for instance people transfer
> money. They are used to transfer money within the country. Most people feel
> uncomfortable in transferring money to Belgium. This means that the WMF
> should have a Dutch banking account.

Yes, that is true. But because the national money transfer systems are now very
soon going to be abolished that is not a practical solution anymore. Or the
money must be directed to the accounts of the chapters if the exist.

Normally the people in the euro-zone must have now 2 money transfer systems the
can use; the national one and the IBAN-system. And the IBAN-system is being
used more and more by company's who send a bill to there customers.

Best would be to just give a IBAN account number and label it as "European Bank
Account" and not say anything about Belgium. There is no need to. If you have
the IBAN number, and maybe the BIC, that is all you need.

Walter


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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
In my experience you have to know both the organisation and the address.
Without this my banking software does not allow me to transfer money.
Stating that the Belgian bank account* IS* the European bank account makes
absolute sense..
Thanks,
GerardM

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 4:35 PM, Walter Vermeir <walter@wikipedia.be> wrote:

> Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@...> writes:
> > Hoi,
> > Walter is absolutely right. In the Netherlands for instance people
> transfer
> > money. They are used to transfer money within the country. Most people
> feel
> > uncomfortable in transferring money to Belgium. This means that the WMF
> > should have a Dutch banking account.
>
> Yes, that is true. But because the national money transfer systems are now
> very
> soon going to be abolished that is not a practical solution anymore. Or the
> money must be directed to the accounts of the chapters if the exist.
>
> Normally the people in the euro-zone must have now 2 money transfer systems
> the
> can use; the national one and the IBAN-system. And the IBAN-system is being
> used more and more by company's who send a bill to there customers.
>
> Best would be to just give a IBAN account number and label it as "European
> Bank
> Account" and not say anything about Belgium. There is no need to. If you
> have
> the IBAN number, and maybe the BIC, that is all you need.
>
> Walter
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
Erik Moeller wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I would appreciate it if you could copy & translate this message to
> your relevant communities; I'll also post it to a couple of the
> mailing lists.
>
> First: Does Wikimedia have a funding crisis, does it need to ask
> people for money?
>
> The Wikimedia Foundation is a non-profit organization, and the vast
> majority of its funding comes from fundraising and grants. It operates
> more than 300 servers which keep Wikipedia alive, the associated
> hosting and bandwidth, and the staff needed to support it. Its annual
> expenses for the current fiscal year amount to approximately $6
> million. We have already raised $2 million of that, which leaves us
> with a gap of $4 million which we need to raise through donations
> small and large.
>
> If we fail to meet our budgeted revenue goals during and past this
> fundraiser, we will eventually have to lay off staff and reduce our
> capacity planning for servers and bandwidth, both of which will
> directly affect your experience of Wikipedia. If you feel, for
> example, that developers are often slow to respond to requests, well,
> imagine how much worse it will be if we have to lay off some of them.
> If you feel that editing is often slow, imagine how much worse it will
> be if we cannot pay for additional servers or needed software
> improvements.
>
> As you know, the world is in economic crisis. At this point in time,
> we do not know what the impact of this economic crisis will be on the
> Wikimedia Foundation. We need to meet our targets to continue to
> operate Wikipedia.
>
> I realize that having a banner on the site you read and/or edit every
> day is not convenient. We plan to create a smaller (plaintext) version
> of the banner for signed in users. But we do not plan to reduce the
> banner size of the standard banner, at least not until we have a
> better idea of what the online fundraiser revenue will be for this
> year. We are doing some systematic A/B testing of different banners
> with different messages, and as we learn more, we will iterate the
> banners further.
>
> We do need to raise the funds to operate Wikipedia, so that you can
> continue to use it, both as a reader and a contributor. Rather than
> invite antagonism, I want to invite your collaboration in refining and
> developing the banners. We are open to community suggestions here --
> please feel free to post mock-ups on Meta Wiki at this page:
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fundraising_2008/design_drafts
>
> However, if we feel (or measure) that a banner will significantly
> reduce the number of donations received, we will not use it. So if
> your primary goal is to make the banner smaller or less "obtrusive",
> rather than making it more effective or at least retaining its current
> level of effectiveness, I don't think we'll come up with something
> that can replace the current banners.
>
> Please let's remember that the Wikimedia Foundation exists to support
> this project's continued existence, and the Wikimedia movement
> internationally. This means we need to create awareness for the fact
> that we need to raise money, just like any other charity. This
> fundraising drive will run until January 15. Until then, I ask for
> your patience and cooperation in making it work.
>
> Please feel free to contact me: erik(at)wikimedia(dot)org. Thanks,
> Erik Möller 22:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
>



Talking about the banner and currencies, I am not quite sure why some
languages are in dollars and others are in euros. It might make sense in
Deutsch (mostly Deutsch people will donate and of course, they will
donate in euros preferably), but not really in French (canadian, french,
swiss, algerian etc... all use different currencies). I expect the
Foundation receive quite a lot from canadians... who will find odd to
find an american organization propose a donation in euros.

But beyond this, I noted an oddity.
The banner is currently suggesting donating 30 dollars, 75 dollars or
100 dollars per default. Thank god, people can choose to give other
values and in particular less. Given that the average donation in the
past was 30 dollars, suggesting 30 dollars as minimal value is... bold.

But other languages, such as german, also propose 30/75/100, but not in
dollars... in euros. Unfortunately, a 30 dollars today is below 20 euros
today. So, a minimal gift of 30 euros is more about 40-45 dollars.
I do not think it is a good idea to suggest different values according
to languages. Somehow, it strikes me as "unequal". I think we should
stick to dollars in any cases. Imho.

(I am not going to scream about this, I just find it is not a good idea).

Ant


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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:10 PM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:
> But other languages, such as german, also propose 30/75/100, but not in
> dollars... in euros. Unfortunately, a 30 dollars today is below 20 euros
> today. So, a minimal gift of 30 euros is more about 40-45 dollars.
> I do not think it is a good idea to suggest different values according
> to languages. Somehow, it strikes me as "unequal". I think we should
> stick to dollars in any cases. Imho.

It's true that the market exchange rate makes 30 euros converted to US
dollars more than 30 dollars. On the other hand, the purchasing power
of 30 euros in Europe is more or less equal to 30 dollars in the US.
So, it's actually perfectly fine to ask Europeans to donate 30 euros.
Looking at how actual donations turn out, it seems that the 30 is
actually used by a lot. It is indeed bold, but boldness is what
fortune favors, right?

Sebastian

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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Talking about the banner and currencies, I am not quite sure why some
> languages are in dollars and others are in euros. It might make sense in
> Deutsch (mostly Deutsch people will donate and of course, they will
> donate in euros preferably), but not really in French (canadian, french,
> swiss, algerian etc... all use different currencies). I expect the
> Foundation receive quite a lot from canadians... who will find odd to
> find an american organization propose a donation in euros.
>
> But beyond this, I noted an oddity.
> The banner is currently suggesting donating 30 dollars, 75 dollars or
> 100 dollars per default. Thank god, people can choose to give other
> values and in particular less. Given that the average donation in the
> past was 30 dollars, suggesting 30 dollars as minimal value is... bold.
>
> But other languages, such as german, also propose 30/75/100, but not in
> dollars... in euros. Unfortunately, a 30 dollars today is below 20 euros
> today. So, a minimal gift of 30 euros is more about 40-45 dollars.
> I do not think it is a good idea to suggest different values according
> to languages. Somehow, it strikes me as "unequal". I think we should
> stick to dollars in any cases. Imho.
>
> (I am not going to scream about this, I just find it is not a good idea).
>
> Ant
>

It is perhaps noteworthy that last year the donation text box was
prefilled with $50, and that was accompanied by a very discernible
spike in the number of donors giving $50.

On the other hand, roughly 60% of donations and 20% of income from
past drives arrived in amounts of $20 or less.

-Robert Rohde

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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
Sebastian Moleski wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:10 PM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> But other languages, such as german, also propose 30/75/100, but not in
>> dollars... in euros. Unfortunately, a 30 dollars today is below 20 euros
>> today. So, a minimal gift of 30 euros is more about 40-45 dollars.
>> I do not think it is a good idea to suggest different values according
>> to languages. Somehow, it strikes me as "unequal". I think we should
>> stick to dollars in any cases. Imho.
>
> It's true that the market exchange rate makes 30 euros converted to US
> dollars more than 30 dollars. On the other hand, the purchasing power
> of 30 euros in Europe is more or less equal to 30 dollars in the US.
> So, it's actually perfectly fine to ask Europeans to donate 30 euros.
> Looking at how actual donations turn out, it seems that the 30 is
> actually used by a lot. It is indeed bold, but boldness is what
> fortune favors, right?
>
> Sebastian


Yeah, yeah right, IF you are asking to europeans.

And that's the whole point. When you ask in German, you probably have
95% of chance of finding a european.
But if you ask in French, not. Not all French speaking people are
europeans. And for many of them, non europeans, 30 euros is a hell of an
amount to give.

For example, the monthly salary of a university professor in Algeria is
400 euros. In comparison, a university professor is richer in Algeria
than a university professor in France. But the Algerian professor would
never give 30 euros.

We know that there are inequalities in the World. But I really see not
why on average we would ask 30 dollars to an english speaking one,
whilst on average we would ask 45 equivalent dollars to a french
speaking one.

Ant


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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 5:10 PM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Talking about the banner and currencies, I am not quite sure why some
> languages are in dollars and others are in euros. It might make sense in
> Deutsch (mostly Deutsch people will donate and of course, they will
> donate in euros preferably), but not really in French (canadian, french,
> swiss, algerian etc... all use different currencies). I expect the
> Foundation receive quite a lot from canadians... who will find odd to
> find an american organization propose a donation in euros.
>
> But beyond this, I noted an oddity.
> The banner is currently suggesting donating 30 dollars, 75 dollars or
> 100 dollars per default. Thank god, people can choose to give other
> values and in particular less. Given that the average donation in the
> past was 30 dollars, suggesting 30 dollars as minimal value is... bold.
>
> But other languages, such as german, also propose 30/75/100, but not in
> dollars... in euros. Unfortunately, a 30 dollars today is below 20 euros
> today. So, a minimal gift of 30 euros is more about 40-45 dollars.
> I do not think it is a good idea to suggest different values according
> to languages. Somehow, it strikes me as "unequal". I think we should
> stick to dollars in any cases. Imho.
>
> (I am not going to scream about this, I just find it is not a good idea).
>
> Ant
>
>

I rely on the translators and the people who *live* in the country to
figure out what amount to give. For example, for Bulgarian we were
definitely not going to do 15 Euros... that's a *lot* of money for
people in Bulgaria (where most of the Bulgarians are).

There really isn't a reason to complain about the currency, there's a
drop-down where you can select the one that you prefer. :-) We had to
pick the one that fit best with the speakers of the language *and*
that was offered by PayPal (if there was no available option, we'd use
the default: USD). Within those parameters, I think we are doing a
pretty good job.

If you have any comments about a specific language and find that it
would be way too much to ask of the local people (not something like
"they are asking more of Europeans!" because I agree with Sebmol as he
said earlier), please drop me a line. ;-)

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

---
Note: This e-mail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails sent to
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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
Casey Brown wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 5:10 PM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Talking about the banner and currencies, I am not quite sure why some
>> languages are in dollars and others are in euros. It might make sense in
>> Deutsch (mostly Deutsch people will donate and of course, they will
>> donate in euros preferably), but not really in French (canadian, french,
>> swiss, algerian etc... all use different currencies). I expect the
>> Foundation receive quite a lot from canadians... who will find odd to
>> find an american organization propose a donation in euros.
>>
>> But beyond this, I noted an oddity.
>> The banner is currently suggesting donating 30 dollars, 75 dollars or
>> 100 dollars per default. Thank god, people can choose to give other
>> values and in particular less. Given that the average donation in the
>> past was 30 dollars, suggesting 30 dollars as minimal value is... bold.
>>
>> But other languages, such as german, also propose 30/75/100, but not in
>> dollars... in euros. Unfortunately, a 30 dollars today is below 20 euros
>> today. So, a minimal gift of 30 euros is more about 40-45 dollars.
>> I do not think it is a good idea to suggest different values according
>> to languages. Somehow, it strikes me as "unequal". I think we should
>> stick to dollars in any cases. Imho.
>>
>> (I am not going to scream about this, I just find it is not a good idea).
>>
>> Ant
>>
>>
>
> I rely on the translators and the people who *live* in the country to
> figure out what amount to give. For example, for Bulgarian we were
> definitely not going to do 15 Euros... that's a *lot* of money for
> people in Bulgaria (where most of the Bulgarians are).
>
> There really isn't a reason to complain about the currency, there's a
> drop-down where you can select the one that you prefer. :-) We had to
> pick the one that fit best with the speakers of the language *and*
> that was offered by PayPal (if there was no available option, we'd use
> the default: USD). Within those parameters, I think we are doing a
> pretty good job.
>
> If you have any comments about a specific language and find that it
> would be way too much to ask of the local people (not something like
> "they are asking more of Europeans!" because I agree with Sebmol as he
> said earlier), please drop me a line. ;-)
>


Yeah. The line has been dropped in the past two messages already, I am
not going to repeat myself. But as I said, this is my opinion, and I am
not going to make a drama of that. To a certain extent, I do not care.



However, I care about French and I care about not trying to show that
France is the center of the world.

I switched the French speaking page to dollars instead of Euros.
Now, IF you have a good argument for the Foundation, an american
organization, to decide to fundraise in euros rather than any other
currency WHEN the interface is in French, I'll listen carefully.
What I know is that there are essentially four French speaking countries
in Europe. One is France and we suggest they give to the chapter. One is
Switzerland and we suggest they give to the chapter (and their currency
is not euro anyway). Granted, Belgian and Luxembourg people will give to
WMF in euros perhaps. But I am pretty sure the addition of Belgian and
Luxembourg will end up less than French canadian or African
contributors. So, there is no sense putting euros by default.

I wish I, a French, would not have to explain others that France is not
the center of the French speaking world...

Oh wait... but maybe it is ? Jeee, sorry :-)


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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 12:41 AM, Casey Brown <cbrown1023.ml@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 5:10 PM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > Talking about the banner and currencies, I am not quite sure why some
> > languages are in dollars and others are in euros. It might make sense in
> > Deutsch (mostly Deutsch people will donate and of course, they will
> > donate in euros preferably), but not really in French (canadian, french,
> > swiss, algerian etc... all use different currencies). I expect the
> > Foundation receive quite a lot from canadians... who will find odd to
> > find an american organization propose a donation in euros.
> >
> > But beyond this, I noted an oddity.
> > The banner is currently suggesting donating 30 dollars, 75 dollars or
> > 100 dollars per default. Thank god, people can choose to give other
> > values and in particular less. Given that the average donation in the
> > past was 30 dollars, suggesting 30 dollars as minimal value is... bold.
> >
> > But other languages, such as german, also propose 30/75/100, but not in
> > dollars... in euros. Unfortunately, a 30 dollars today is below 20 euros
> > today. So, a minimal gift of 30 euros is more about 40-45 dollars.
> > I do not think it is a good idea to suggest different values according
> > to languages. Somehow, it strikes me as "unequal". I think we should
> > stick to dollars in any cases. Imho.
> >
> > (I am not going to scream about this, I just find it is not a good idea).
> >
> > Ant
> >
> >
>
> I rely on the translators and the people who *live* in the country to
> figure out what amount to give. For example, for Bulgarian we were
> definitely not going to do 15 Euros... that's a *lot* of money for
> people in Bulgaria (where most of the Bulgarians are).
>
> There really isn't a reason to complain about the currency, there's a
> drop-down where you can select the one that you prefer. :-) We had to
> pick the one that fit best with the speakers of the language *and*
> that was offered by PayPal (if there was no available option, we'd use
> the default: USD). Within those parameters, I think we are doing a
> pretty good job.
>
> If you have any comments about a specific language and find that it
> would be way too much to ask of the local people (not something like
> "they are asking more of Europeans!" because I agree with Sebmol as he
> said earlier), please drop me a line. ;-)
>
> --
> Casey Brown
> Cbrown1023

I agree with Casey, that if possible, the donation amounts should be
tailored to the people being reached by the given language.


What I would like as well, if possible, is support from the technical side
to have detailed as detailed statistics about the different currencies as
there are for US dollar (e.g. the percentage of donations matching exactly
one of the three options on the donation page), and also the ability to look
at the data already presented (total amount, average, min, max in a given
currency) to be available denominated in the original currency as well. I am
not sure, but having this extra data might confirm if the correct default
amounts were guessed correctly, or if the least chosen amount should be
substituted for a different one.

Best regards,
Bence Damokos


> ---
> Note: This e-mail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails sent
> to
> this address will probably get lost.
>
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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
For those who like stats, like I do, it would appear that the first
two days of this drive have slightly more than doubled the comparable
period last year, both in terms of donors and total income.

That is probably indicative of a pretty good presentation this year
(and a fairly poor one at the start of last year). Overall traffic
has been flat (or marginally negative) relative to last year if you
accept Alexa values.

-Robert Rohde

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Casey Brown wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 5:10 PM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Talking about the banner and currencies, I am not quite sure why some
>>> languages are in dollars and others are in euros. It might make sense in
>>> Deutsch (mostly Deutsch people will donate and of course, they will
>>> donate in euros preferably), but not really in French (canadian, french,
>>> swiss, algerian etc... all use different currencies). I expect the
>>> Foundation receive quite a lot from canadians... who will find odd to
>>> find an american organization propose a donation in euros.
>>>
>>> But beyond this, I noted an oddity.
>>> The banner is currently suggesting donating 30 dollars, 75 dollars or
>>> 100 dollars per default. Thank god, people can choose to give other
>>> values and in particular less. Given that the average donation in the
>>> past was 30 dollars, suggesting 30 dollars as minimal value is... bold.
>>>
>>> But other languages, such as german, also propose 30/75/100, but not in
>>> dollars... in euros. Unfortunately, a 30 dollars today is below 20 euros
>>> today. So, a minimal gift of 30 euros is more about 40-45 dollars.
>>> I do not think it is a good idea to suggest different values according
>>> to languages. Somehow, it strikes me as "unequal". I think we should
>>> stick to dollars in any cases. Imho.
>>>
>>> (I am not going to scream about this, I just find it is not a good idea).
>>>
>>> Ant
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I rely on the translators and the people who *live* in the country to
>> figure out what amount to give. For example, for Bulgarian we were
>> definitely not going to do 15 Euros... that's a *lot* of money for
>> people in Bulgaria (where most of the Bulgarians are).
>>
>> There really isn't a reason to complain about the currency, there's a
>> drop-down where you can select the one that you prefer. :-) We had to
>> pick the one that fit best with the speakers of the language *and*
>> that was offered by PayPal (if there was no available option, we'd use
>> the default: USD). Within those parameters, I think we are doing a
>> pretty good job.
>>
>> If you have any comments about a specific language and find that it
>> would be way too much to ask of the local people (not something like
>> "they are asking more of Europeans!" because I agree with Sebmol as he
>> said earlier), please drop me a line. ;-)
>>
>
>
> Yeah. The line has been dropped in the past two messages already, I am
> not going to repeat myself. But as I said, this is my opinion, and I am
> not going to make a drama of that. To a certain extent, I do not care.
>
>
>
> However, I care about French and I care about not trying to show that
> France is the center of the world.
>
> I switched the French speaking page to dollars instead of Euros.
> Now, IF you have a good argument for the Foundation, an american
> organization, to decide to fundraise in euros rather than any other
> currency WHEN the interface is in French, I'll listen carefully.
> What I know is that there are essentially four French speaking countries
> in Europe. One is France and we suggest they give to the chapter. One is
> Switzerland and we suggest they give to the chapter (and their currency
> is not euro anyway). Granted, Belgian and Luxembourg people will give to
> WMF in euros perhaps. But I am pretty sure the addition of Belgian and
> Luxembourg will end up less than French canadian or African
> contributors. So, there is no sense putting euros by default.
>
> I wish I, a French, would not have to explain others that France is not
> the center of the French speaking world...
>
> Oh wait... but maybe it is ? Jeee, sorry :-)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Bence Damokos <bdamokos@gmail.com> wrote:
> What I would like as well, if possible, is support from the technical side
> to have detailed as detailed statistics about the different currencies as
> there are for US dollar (e.g. the percentage of donations matching exactly
> one of the three options on the donation page), and also the ability to look
> at the data already presented (total amount, average, min, max in a given
> currency) to be available denominated in the original currency as well. I am
> not sure, but having this extra data might confirm if the correct default
> amounts were guessed correctly, or if the least chosen amount should be
> substituted for a different one.
>

There is *some* of this information present that you ask for on:
<http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Special:ContributionStatistics>.
The rest might be possible to get if you convinced David Strauss to
help. ;-)

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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Re: Regarding the Fundraising Banner [ In reply to ]
Florence Devouard wrote:
> I expect the
> Foundation receive quite a lot from canadians...
No doubt considerably less than if it were tax deductible. Tax
deductibility is actually quite generous here when it can be used.
Anyone whose total donations to all qualifying charities exceeds $200
will effectively get back a little more than half of that excess.

Ec

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