Mailing List Archive

New list admin: Ral315
Dear all,
please welcome with me User:Ral315 as new third list admin of
foundation-l. He has volunteered to help, noting that there has been
somewhat of a backlog in the moderation queue recently, and Austin and
I are glad to accept his offer.

You will most probably know Ral315 already well as current
editor-in-chief of the Wikipedia Signpost, so I'll skip the extended
introduction.

Best wishes,
Michael
for the foundation-l list administrators

--
Michael Bimmler
mbimmler@gmail.com

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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
2008/8/17 Michael Bimmler <mbimmler@gmail.com>

> Dear all,
> please welcome with me User:Ral315 as new third list admin of
> foundation-l. He has volunteered to help, noting that there has been
> somewhat of a backlog in the moderation queue recently, and Austin and
> I are glad to accept his offer.
>
> You will most probably know Ral315 already well as current
> editor-in-chief of the Wikipedia Signpost, so I'll skip the extended
> introduction.
>
> Best wishes,
> Michael
> for the foundation-l list administrators
>
> --
> Michael Bimmler
> mbimmler@gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

Hmm... what made you choose Ral? I don't see him very active on this list at
all... last post was June 30th... (
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2008-June/044457.html).
I'd have personally preferred a more "veteran" person to take on the role of
admin, but maybe that's just me.

--
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(User:Majorly)
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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
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Michael Bimmler wrote:
> Dear all,
> please welcome with me User:Ral315 as new third list admin of
> foundation-l. He has volunteered to help, noting that there has been
> somewhat of a backlog in the moderation queue recently, and Austin and
> I are glad to accept his offer.
>
> You will most probably know Ral315 already well as current
> editor-in-chief of the Wikipedia Signpost, so I'll skip the extended
> introduction.
>
> Best wishes,
> Michael
> for the foundation-l list administrators
>


How did you choose him? There was no notice to the list.

- --
Best,
Jon

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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
folks, please. If Michael thinks he's a good guy, I'm fine with it. I
don't think that mawning on how he made the choice etc will help a
lot. Welcome, Ral315!

Lodewijk

2008/8/17 Jon <scream@datascreamer.com>:
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> Hash: SHA1
>
> Michael Bimmler wrote:
>> Dear all,
>> please welcome with me User:Ral315 as new third list admin of
>> foundation-l. He has volunteered to help, noting that there has been
>> somewhat of a backlog in the moderation queue recently, and Austin and
>> I are glad to accept his offer.
>>
>> You will most probably know Ral315 already well as current
>> editor-in-chief of the Wikipedia Signpost, so I'll skip the extended
>> introduction.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Michael
>> for the foundation-l list administrators
>>
>
>
> How did you choose him? There was no notice to the list.
>
> - --
> Best,
> Jon
>
> [User:NonvocalScream]
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> =Tvo7
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>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
2008/8/17 effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com>

> folks, please. If Michael thinks he's a good guy, I'm fine with it. I
> don't think that mawning on how he made the choice etc will help a
> lot. Welcome, Ral315!
>
> Lodewijk
>

I'm not particularly interested *how* he was chosen... more *why*

I don't distrust Michael, but his idea of a good person may and will differ
from other people's.

NVS and I also offered to help months ago, but nothing came of that.

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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
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effe iets anders wrote:
> folks, please. If Michael thinks he's a good guy, I'm fine with it. I
> don't think that mawning on how he made the choice etc will help a
> lot. Welcome, Ral315!
>

With all respect, I think I might object to this choice for the
foundation list. But I want to here Michael first.


- --
Best,
Jon

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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
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effe iets anders wrote:
> folks, please. If Michael thinks he's a good guy, I'm fine with it. I
> don't think that mawning on how he made the choice etc will help a
> lot. Welcome, Ral315!
>


I would also be very interested to know why there was no response to my
offer to volunteer. There was one other public offer, and he is very
active on the list as well. I am not understanding.
- --
Best,
Jon

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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
Al Tally wrote:
> 2008/8/17 effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com>
>
>> folks, please. If Michael thinks he's a good guy, I'm fine with it. I
>> don't think that mawning on how he made the choice etc will help a
>> lot. Welcome, Ral315!
>>
>> Lodewijk
>>
> I'm not particularly interested *how* he was chosen... more *why*
>
> I don't distrust Michael, but his idea of a good person may and will differ
> from other people's.
>
> NVS and I also offered to help months ago, but nothing came of that.
>
So in other words, the reason you're critical of the person chosen is
because you were passed over?

--Michael Snow


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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
List administration is a list administrators job. I am totaly fine
with it if the list administrators handle the administration,
including new admin-appointments. This kind of stuff is not something
to decide on the list itself. I am fine with elaborations etc, I don't
care. But on the other side, I just go with Michael here, I trust his
judgement on what is needed and who is better. (this unless there is a
huge major problem with a new or old admin on a structural basis of
course)

kr, lodewijk

2008/8/17 Jon <scream@datascreamer.com>:
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>
> effe iets anders wrote:
>> folks, please. If Michael thinks he's a good guy, I'm fine with it. I
>> don't think that mawning on how he made the choice etc will help a
>> lot. Welcome, Ral315!
>>
>
>
> I would also be very interested to know why there was no response to my
> offer to volunteer. There was one other public offer, and he is very
> active on the list as well. I am not understanding.
> - --
> Best,
> Jon
>
> [User:NonvocalScream]
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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
2008/8/17 Michael Snow <wikipedia@verizon.net>

> So in other words, the reason you're critical of the person chosen is
> because you were passed over?
>
> --Michael Snow
>

That is just an additional reason I'm kind of surprised at this request.
Michael never replied to Jon or myself when we offered to help several
months ago. I can think of better people for this task. I've had several
problems with Ral in the past, and finding out he "volunteered to help" here
is the icing on the cake really.

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(User:Majorly)
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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
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Michael Snow wrote:
> Al Tally wrote:
>> 2008/8/17 effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com>
>>
>>> folks, please. If Michael thinks he's a good guy, I'm fine with it. I
>>> don't think that mawning on how he made the choice etc will help a
>>> lot. Welcome, Ral315!
>>>
>>> Lodewijk
>>>
>> I'm not particularly interested *how* he was chosen... more *why*
>>
>> I don't distrust Michael, but his idea of a good person may and will differ
>> from other people's.
>>
>> NVS and I also offered to help months ago, but nothing came of that.
>>
> So in other words, the reason you're critical of the person chosen is
> because you were passed over?
>
> --Michael Snow
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


Mr. Snow,

With respect - I think he stated he was critical because of the current
choices inactivity. Not the fact that he was passed over. Where in
Wikimedia did you come up with that?


He even stated why he was critical here:

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2008-August/045330.html



- --
Best,
Jon

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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
Jon wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Michael Snow wrote:
>
>> Al Tally wrote:
>>
>>> 2008/8/17 effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>> folks, please. If Michael thinks he's a good guy, I'm fine with it. I
>>>> don't think that mawning on how he made the choice etc will help a
>>>> lot. Welcome, Ral315!
>>>>
>>>> Lodewijk
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I'm not particularly interested *how* he was chosen... more *why*
>>>
>>> I don't distrust Michael, but his idea of a good person may and will differ
>>> from other people's.
>>>
>>> NVS and I also offered to help months ago, but nothing came of that.
>>>
>>>
>> So in other words, the reason you're critical of the person chosen is
>> because you were passed over?
>>
>> --Michael Snow
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
>
> Mr. Snow,
>
> With respect - I think he stated he was critical because of the current
> choices inactivity. Not the fact that he was passed over. Where in
> Wikimedia did you come up with that?
>
I asked because when something like this is brought up so quickly, the
very natural inference is that it is the real motivation for the
challenge, not the reason initially stated as a pretense. I observe that
neither of the existing list admins, and Austin especially, is noted for
being an especially high-volume poster to the list.

And on a mailing list where people regularly complain about the volume
of posts detracting from the discussion, it seems rather misplaced to
consider that kind of activity the primary criterion for those who might
help moderate. There are enough concerns about "editcountitis" in the
community, let's not import it from wikis to mailing lists.

--Michael Snow


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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
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Michael Snow wrote:
> Jon wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Michael Snow wrote:
>>
>>> Al Tally wrote:
>>>
>>>> 2008/8/17 effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> folks, please. If Michael thinks he's a good guy, I'm fine with it. I
>>>>> don't think that mawning on how he made the choice etc will help a
>>>>> lot. Welcome, Ral315!
>>>>>
>>>>> Lodewijk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I'm not particularly interested *how* he was chosen... more *why*
>>>>
>>>> I don't distrust Michael, but his idea of a good person may and will differ
>>>> from other people's.
>>>>
>>>> NVS and I also offered to help months ago, but nothing came of that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> So in other words, the reason you're critical of the person chosen is
>>> because you were passed over?
>>>
>>> --Michael Snow
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>
>>
>> Mr. Snow,
>>
>> With respect - I think he stated he was critical because of the current
>> choices inactivity. Not the fact that he was passed over. Where in
>> Wikimedia did you come up with that?
>>
> I asked because when something like this is brought up so quickly, the
> very natural inference is that it is the real motivation for the
> challenge, not the reason initially stated as a pretense. I observe that
> neither of the existing list admins, and Austin especially, is noted for
> being an especially high-volume poster to the list.
>
> And on a mailing list where people regularly complain about the volume
> of posts detracting from the discussion, it seems rather misplaced to
> consider that kind of activity the primary criterion for those who might
> help moderate. There are enough concerns about "editcountitis" in the
> community, let's not import it from wikis to mailing lists.
>
> --Michael Snow
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


I think the criteria I would like to see more is a involvement in
volunteer activities on a WM foundation level as opposed to a local
project level. Not posting specifically to this list... however that is
a plus.

- --
Best,
Jon

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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
Michael Snow wrote:
>
> I asked because when something like this is brought up so quickly, the
> very natural inference is that it is the real motivation for the
> challenge, not the reason initially stated as a pretense. I observe that
> neither of the existing list admins, and Austin especially, is noted for
> being an especially high-volume poster to the list.
>
> And on a mailing list where people regularly complain about the volume
> of posts detracting from the discussion, it seems rather misplaced to
> consider that kind of activity the primary criterion for those who might
> help moderate. There are enough concerns about "editcountitis" in the
> community, let's not import it from wikis to mailing lists.
>
> --Michael Snow
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

Michael, there's questionable merit to the complaints that the volume of
posts detract from the discussion, and inevitably the people making
those complaints are always on the top posters for the month list.
Please don't try to import a few people's elitist values to the rest of
the list. It's lead to censorship and moderation in the past, something
that was (rightfully) criticized of the other list admins/moderators.
Whether someone posts a lot should absolutely NOT be a disqualification
for their consideration as a list admin -- in fact, a strong familiarity
and activity with this list and its members should be a requirement. It
certainly would fix some of the issues we've had with the moderation on
this list in the past.

Let me also just say that while my first response to Majorly and Jon's
response was "Holy shit, that's out of line", I think the chair of the
board's involvement in making accusations and imputing motives against
them, as well as suggesting (in not so many words) that people post less
to this list, is even more out of line.

I suggest that this thread dies an immediate, horrible and voluntary
death, and we all move on with our lives and let Ral do his job.

-Dan


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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
> Hmm... what made you choose Ral? I don't see him very active on this list at
> all... last post was June 30th...

I have no idea if Ral is or isn't a good choice, but I think being an
infrequent poster is a good thing (as long as he's a frequent reader).
You can't fairly moderate a discussion you are taking part in, so if
he were a frequent poster he would either have to stop posting or not
moderate the threads he's posting to, which would make him a less
useful member of the admin team.

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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
Dan Rosenthal wrote:
> Michael Snow wrote:
>
>> I asked because when something like this is brought up so quickly, the
>> very natural inference is that it is the real motivation for the
>> challenge, not the reason initially stated as a pretense. I observe that
>> neither of the existing list admins, and Austin especially, is noted for
>> being an especially high-volume poster to the list.
>>
>> And on a mailing list where people regularly complain about the volume
>> of posts detracting from the discussion, it seems rather misplaced to
>> consider that kind of activity the primary criterion for those who might
>> help moderate. There are enough concerns about "editcountitis" in the
>> community, let's not import it from wikis to mailing lists.
>>
> Michael, there's questionable merit to the complaints that the volume of
> posts detract from the discussion, and inevitably the people making
> those complaints are always on the top posters for the month list.
>
Sorry, but this is simply not true, regardless of the merit of the
complaints (enough different people complain that I think we should at
least listen, although I'm not sure how much weight to give such
complaints). From a thread a few months ago where the issue was raised:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2008-March/039442.html
(Mathias Damour)
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2008-March/039506.html
(Lars Aronsson)
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2008-March/039509.html
(Dmcdevit)
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2008-March/039531.html
(Anders Wegge Jakobsen, agreeing with Lars)

These are all from people who post no more than occasionally (Lars is
the most active, but I doubt he's ever been near the top of the list for
a month). Nevertheless, they are regular readers and all people whose
opinions I would value, even if I might not always agree with them.
> Whether someone posts a lot should absolutely NOT be a disqualification
> for their consideration as a list admin
Who said it should be a disqualification? I merely suggested that given
the complaints, it might not be the best qualification.
> Let me also just say that while my first response to Majorly and Jon's
> response was "Holy shit, that's out of line", I think the chair of the
> board's involvement in making accusations and imputing motives against
> them, as well as suggesting (in not so many words) that people post less
> to this list, is even more out of line.
>
I'm not personally suggesting people post less to this list, simply
reminding us about the longstanding concerns. Sorry for not making that
more clear, and I didn't single anyone out as posting excessively. I
would like to think that it's okay to take the views of others into
consideration.

I don't understand how, though, if something is seriously out of line,
being chair of the board should disqualify me from saying that it is out
of line. My comments on this subject have been purely my own in any
case, not representing the board or the foundation, should anyone be
wondering.

--Michael Snow


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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
As another formerly high volume poster to this list who also volunteered as
moderator,
I think Ral will do fine and see no problem with the selection.

As an aside, I've stopped posting the top posters list (which has been
mentioned
several times) due to the various objections.

Nathan
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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 7:18 PM, Michael Bimmler <mbimmler@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
> please welcome with me User:Ral315 as new third list admin of
> foundation-l. He has volunteered to help, noting that there has been
> somewhat of a backlog in the moderation queue recently, and Austin and
> I are glad to accept his offer.
>
> You will most probably know Ral315 already well as current
> editor-in-chief of the Wikipedia Signpost, so I'll skip the extended
> introduction.
>
> Best wishes,
> Michael
> for the foundation-l list administrators<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l>
>

I should say for the record that I have no intent to add or remove anyone
from moderation for quite a while; my offer to volunteer was strictly to
approve e-mails sitting in the moderation queue. The only reason I offered
was that I noticed that a few e-mails were approved recently that had been
sent more than a week before, and I figured that was a sign that Michael and
Austin might have needed some help. I hope and expect that my work on the
list is as mundane, non-controversial and invisible as possible.

As far as my list inactivity goes, I read the list on a daily basis, but
lately I've noticed that others tend to make my points for me, and are much
more articulate in expressing their views. I think a lot of the "top
posters" add a significant amount to discussion and their posts are
worthwhile; for myself, I find that the more I post, the less I tend to say.

--
[[User:Ral315]]
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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 8:41 AM, effe iets anders
<effeietsanders@gmail.com> wrote:
> folks, please. If Michael thinks he's a good guy, I'm fine with it. I
> don't think that mawning on how he made the choice etc will help a
> lot.
Hear hear.
Welcome, Ral315, and thanks for offering help.

> Welcome, Ral315!
>
> Lodewijk
>
> 2008/8/17 Jon <scream@datascreamer.com>:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Michael Bimmler wrote:
>>> Dear all,
>>> please welcome with me User:Ral315 as new third list admin of
>>> foundation-l. He has volunteered to help, noting that there has been
>>> somewhat of a backlog in the moderation queue recently, and Austin and
>>> I are glad to accept his offer.
>>>
>>> You will most probably know Ral315 already well as current
>>> editor-in-chief of the Wikipedia Signpost, so I'll skip the extended
>>> introduction.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Michael
>>> for the foundation-l list administrators
>>>
>>
>>
>> How did you choose him? There was no notice to the list.
>>
>> - --
>> Best,
>> Jon
>>
>> [User:NonvocalScream]
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>> HNAAn3O6uz2UwSpXKKb5CJt/2YEaYpfa
>> =Tvo7
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>>
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>>
>
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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
I must say, I'm astonished what kind of seemingly uncontroversial
decisions can spark so much drama again.

In fact, I echo Dan's suggestions that this thread should die again
very quickly (for reasoning see below), but I figured that it would
again be seen very negatively if I didn't respond here, so let me make
a short statement:

1) It is my opinion that Wikipedia would not be as successful as it
is, if we had not Assumed Good Faith of each other at times. Can we
please also apply this to this list (administration)?

2) Some people here opposed Ral's appointment on procedural grounds
("How did you choose him? Why was this not a democratic process with a
survey?"). Now, opposing a candidate (under such circumstances as we
have them here) on merely procedural reasons seems rather meritless to
me. May I suggest that you first wait to see how Ral does his job? In
fact, in the best case you will hardly notice him doing anything,
which is the way it should be. If you have good reason to complain
later, you can still start a 'vote of no-confidence' here...

3) Others questioned his experience or activity: By all means, I can't
take this serious. Ral has been here longer than many of you (or at
least those who are the loudest critics), his en.wp involvement
started in September 2004.
And no, to anticipate a counter-argument, this is not irrelevant in
this context -- he has a good grasp of Wikimedia affairs (obviously,
as Signpost editor), he is experienced in dealing with..."difficult
users" and thus he is in my eyes perfectly qualified for the job.
That he is a less frequent poster than others on the other hand is
really irrelevant here - he is not here to actively moderate any
*discussion* (panel-style), he is here to moderate a *discussion
list*. That's a fine but important difference. In fact, it gives him
more time to do moderation work while you guys fire away your 10 posts
an hour ;-)

4) One last point about procedure: We received many applications, both
off- and onlist. We considered all of them and have now chosen Ral315,
that's the way application systems work. I'm not a friend of model
letters ("Unfortunately your application was not successful, I hope
you will apply again for other functions blablabla") and thus the
approach was rather "Only successful applicants will be contacted".
Sorry, if this wasn't made clear.
And no, it's not practical to make an appointment hearing or even a
vote for the job of list administrator. If you don't trust us as a
team, organise a sound vote of no-confidence and if the board (or the
technical staff or whomever) are satisfied that this vote reflects
broad consensus, I'm sure they will replace us with other list
administrators.

Please, let Ral315 do his job now and if you want to explore this
further, do it off-list with us.

Regards,
Michael

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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Michael Bimmler wrote:
> I must say, I'm astonished what kind of seemingly uncontroversial
> decisions can spark so much drama again.
>
> In fact, I echo Dan's suggestions that this thread should die again
> very quickly (for reasoning see below), but I figured that it would
> again be seen very negatively if I didn't respond here, so let me make
> a short statement:
>
> 1) It is my opinion that Wikipedia would not be as successful as it
> is, if we had not Assumed Good Faith of each other at times. Can we
> please also apply this to this list (administration)?
>
> 2) Some people here opposed Ral's appointment on procedural grounds
> ("How did you choose him? Why was this not a democratic process with a
> survey?"). Now, opposing a candidate (under such circumstances as we
> have them here) on merely procedural reasons seems rather meritless to
> me. May I suggest that you first wait to see how Ral does his job? In
> fact, in the best case you will hardly notice him doing anything,
> which is the way it should be. If you have good reason to complain
> later, you can still start a 'vote of no-confidence' here...
>
> 3) Others questioned his experience or activity: By all means, I can't
> take this serious. Ral has been here longer than many of you (or at
> least those who are the loudest critics), his en.wp involvement
> started in September 2004.
> And no, to anticipate a counter-argument, this is not irrelevant in
> this context -- he has a good grasp of Wikimedia affairs (obviously,
> as Signpost editor), he is experienced in dealing with..."difficult
> users" and thus he is in my eyes perfectly qualified for the job.
> That he is a less frequent poster than others on the other hand is
> really irrelevant here - he is not here to actively moderate any
> *discussion* (panel-style), he is here to moderate a *discussion
> list*. That's a fine but important difference. In fact, it gives him
> more time to do moderation work while you guys fire away your 10 posts
> an hour ;-)
>
> 4) One last point about procedure: We received many applications, both
> off- and onlist. We considered all of them and have now chosen Ral315,
> that's the way application systems work. I'm not a friend of model
> letters ("Unfortunately your application was not successful, I hope
> you will apply again for other functions blablabla") and thus the
> approach was rather "Only successful applicants will be contacted".
> Sorry, if this wasn't made clear.
> And no, it's not practical to make an appointment hearing or even a
> vote for the job of list administrator. If you don't trust us as a
> team, organise a sound vote of no-confidence and if the board (or the
> technical staff or whomever) are satisfied that this vote reflects
> broad consensus, I'm sure they will replace us with other list
> administrators.
>
> Please, let Ral315 do his job now and if you want to explore this
> further, do it off-list with us.
>
> Regards,
> Michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

In deference to Dan I choose to welcome Ral. I'll start by saying I do
trust the list owners.


In the future, I highly encourage the list owners to strive for
transparency. That is to say, that right before an appointment, it
should be stated "We are considering appointing so and so, please send
comments privately to listowners@whatever.org".


Also, I highly encourage the list owners as a courtesy to let those who
applied know that they were considered, but not chosen.


I'm not asking for a boilerplate email, I'm asking for a personal one
with a couple of sentences. This is professional courtesy in any
corporate or volunteer organization. It is impolite not to do so.

- --
Best,
Jon

[User:NonvocalScream]
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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Jon <scream@datascreamer.com> wrote:

> In the future, I highly encourage the list owners to strive for
> transparency. That is to say, that right before an appointment, it
> should be stated "We are considering appointing so and so, please send
> comments privately to listowners@whatever.org".
>

Well, yes, I'll try to do this next time.

> Also, I highly encourage the list owners as a courtesy to let those who
> applied know that they were considered, but not chosen.
>
>
> I'm not asking for a boilerplate email, I'm asking for a personal one
> with a couple of sentences. This is professional courtesy in any
> corporate or volunteer organization. It is impolite not to do so.

With this, though, I have a bit more problems. It's not that I strive
to be impolite, but rather, I'm doubting about its practicalities:

1) Even with the comparatively small amount of applications that I
myself have already written to corporations, I can tell you that it is
by no means standard practice to reply to every application - many
companies only reply to those whom they want to do an interview with
etc.
Now, of course, this alone wouldn't prevent us from "doing better".

2) However, what kind of mail would you have liked? You said that you
didn't want a boilerplate email, okay. But how do you write "personal
emails" to the ca. 10 applicants who we did not choose? Either you
keep it very short and simple ("Hi, this is to inform you that you
were considered but that we found Ral315 to be the most qualified
candidate after all"), which would be a form of a boilerplate again.
Otherwise, you'll have to outline for every candidate the exact
reasons why the successful candidate was "better" (read: more
qualified) than him and it's a) difficult to formulate this without
being impolite and b) it takes a lot of time. In fact, I know until
now absolutely *no* company that will write you a personal letter
explaining why you, in particular, were not chosen. I don't know
whether in the US, corporations have that large HR departments that
they can make this effort, but it doesn't strike me as SOP.

This said, if you find a medium way between boilerplates and
tailor-made emails for every individual candidate, I'm glad to
consider it.

Michael



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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Michael Bimmler wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Jon <scream@datascreamer.com> wrote:
>
>> In the future, I highly encourage the list owners to strive for
>> transparency. That is to say, that right before an appointment, it
>> should be stated "We are considering appointing so and so, please send
>> comments privately to listowners@whatever.org".
>>
>
> Well, yes, I'll try to do this next time.
>
>> Also, I highly encourage the list owners as a courtesy to let those who
>> applied know that they were considered, but not chosen.
>>
>>
>> I'm not asking for a boilerplate email, I'm asking for a personal one
>> with a couple of sentences. This is professional courtesy in any
>> corporate or volunteer organization. It is impolite not to do so.
>
> With this, though, I have a bit more problems. It's not that I strive
> to be impolite, but rather, I'm doubting about its practicalities:
>
> 1) Even with the comparatively small amount of applications that I
> myself have already written to corporations, I can tell you that it is
> by no means standard practice to reply to every application - many
> companies only reply to those whom they want to do an interview with
> etc.
> Now, of course, this alone wouldn't prevent us from "doing better".
>
> 2) However, what kind of mail would you have liked? You said that you
> didn't want a boilerplate email, okay. But how do you write "personal
> emails" to the ca. 10 applicants who we did not choose? Either you
> keep it very short and simple ("Hi, this is to inform you that you
> were considered but that we found Ral315 to be the most qualified
> candidate after all"), which would be a form of a boilerplate again.
> Otherwise, you'll have to outline for every candidate the exact
> reasons why the successful candidate was "better" (read: more
> qualified) than him and it's a) difficult to formulate this without
> being impolite and b) it takes a lot of time. In fact, I know until
> now absolutely *no* company that will write you a personal letter
> explaining why you, in particular, were not chosen. I don't know
> whether in the US, corporations have that large HR departments that
> they can make this effort, but it doesn't strike me as SOP.
>
> This said, if you find a medium way between boilerplates and
> tailor-made emails for every individual candidate, I'm glad to
> consider it.
>
> Michael
>
>
>

Actually, your correct, most HR send boilerplates only. I Think in this
way, a boilerplate would be better than nothing. I only knew of two
other volunteers, but I'm not you, you may have received 10 or more. I
don't know of any good solution. I'm only suggesting not leaving
volunteers hanging. I hope you understand the thought of "Hmm, they
choose someone, did they forget about my offer?????". Best to eliminate
that.


- --
Best,
Jon

[User:NonvocalScream]
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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 6:53 PM, Jon <scream@datascreamer.com> wrote:
>
> Actually, your correct, most HR send boilerplates only. I Think in this
> way, a boilerplate would be better than nothing. I only knew of two
> other volunteers, but I'm not you, you may have received 10 or more.

Yes, in fact we have.

> I
> don't know of any good solution. I'm only suggesting not leaving
> volunteers hanging. I hope you understand the thought of "Hmm, they
> choose someone, did they forget about my offer?????". Best to eliminate
> that.
>

This is true and I confess that I haven't thought about this enough -
I'll make a mental note for the future!
Apologies to everyone who felt ignored, this was certainly not the intention.

MIchael



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Re: New list admin: Ral315 [ In reply to ]
On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Michael Bimmler <mbimmler@gmail.com>wrote:

> 2) However, what kind of mail would you have liked? You said that you
> didn't want a boilerplate email, okay. But how do you write "personal
> emails" to the ca. 10 applicants who we did not choose? Either you
> keep it very short and simple ("Hi, this is to inform you that you
> were considered but that we found Ral315 to be the most qualified
> candidate after all"), which would be a form of a boilerplate again.
> Otherwise, you'll have to outline for every candidate the exact
> reasons why the successful candidate was "better" (read: more
> qualified) than him and it's a) difficult to formulate this without
> being impolite and b) it takes a lot of time.


An explanation of why only one person could be accepted would be helpful,
since you seem to be implying that this is the case.
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