Mailing List Archive: [WikiEN-l] Lobby takeover of wikimedia projects, particularly English wikipedia

[WikiEN-l] Lobby takeover of wikimedia projects, particularly English wikipedia

May 5, 2008, 8:50 PM

Post #1 of 10 (774 views)

Although it is a well known issue, this issue has finally made its way to
spotlight with the ongoing CAMERA incident on English wikipedia... I am sure
English wikipedia's arbcom will come up with a reasonable conclusion and the
purpose of this email is not related to the CAMERA arbcom case directly.

Due to the very nature of wikis they are very open to outside interference
and manipulation. Although there had been many discussions on the matter,
they never generated the intended level of brainstorming.

I am sure someone can provide a brief history of past external manipulations
so I will avoid listing them on this email.

You may be under the false impression that large wikis such as en.wikipedia
is invulnerable to such attacks, but this would be a fatal mistake. English
wikipedia is probably the most vulnerable language edition of wikipedia. If
a lobby group were to secure some 10 admin accounts they can effectively
overwhelm any process we have on English Wikipedia.

So lets discuss possible solutions and precautions.

I recommend that foundation pass a ruling on the matter of lobby takeovers.
Although it goes without saying along with NPOV, spelling it out has
benefits and no harm. This way we can more easily and promptly purge them on
wikis that did not have a serious conversation on this matter enough to come
up with a policy.
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Lobby takeover of wikimedia projects, particularly English wikipedia [ In reply to ]

node.ue at gmail

May 6, 2008, 6:12 AM

Post #2 of 10 (758 views)

Permalink

Camera incident? Sorry, I don't follow.

Mark

2008/5/5 White Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com>:
> Although it is a well known issue, this issue has finally made its way to
> spotlight with the ongoing CAMERA incident on English wikipedia... I am sure
> English wikipedia's arbcom will come up with a reasonable conclusion and the
> purpose of this email is not related to the CAMERA arbcom case directly.
>
> Due to the very nature of wikis they are very open to outside interference
> and manipulation. Although there had been many discussions on the matter,
> they never generated the intended level of brainstorming.
>
> I am sure someone can provide a brief history of past external manipulations
> so I will avoid listing them on this email.
>
> You may be under the false impression that large wikis such as en.wikipedia
> is invulnerable to such attacks, but this would be a fatal mistake. English
> wikipedia is probably the most vulnerable language edition of wikipedia. If
> a lobby group were to secure some 10 admin accounts they can effectively
> overwhelm any process we have on English Wikipedia.
>
> So lets discuss possible solutions and precautions.
>
> I recommend that foundation pass a ruling on the matter of lobby takeovers.
> Although it goes without saying along with NPOV, spelling it out has
> benefits and no harm. This way we can more easily and promptly purge them on
> wikis that did not have a serious conversation on this matter enough to come
> up with a policy.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Lobby takeover of wikimedia projects, particularly English wikipedia [ In reply to ]

innocentkiller at gmail

May 6, 2008, 6:27 AM

Post #3 of 10 (764 views)

Permalink

Likewise, no clue what you're talking about.

-Chad

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Mark Williamson <node.ue@gmail.com> wrote:
> Camera incident? Sorry, I don't follow.
>
> Mark
>
> 2008/5/5 White Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com>:
>
>
> > Although it is a well known issue, this issue has finally made its way to
> > spotlight with the ongoing CAMERA incident on English wikipedia... I am sure
> > English wikipedia's arbcom will come up with a reasonable conclusion and the
> > purpose of this email is not related to the CAMERA arbcom case directly.
> >
> > Due to the very nature of wikis they are very open to outside interference
> > and manipulation. Although there had been many discussions on the matter,
> > they never generated the intended level of brainstorming.
> >
> > I am sure someone can provide a brief history of past external manipulations
> > so I will avoid listing them on this email.
> >
> > You may be under the false impression that large wikis such as en.wikipedia
> > is invulnerable to such attacks, but this would be a fatal mistake. English
> > wikipedia is probably the most vulnerable language edition of wikipedia. If
> > a lobby group were to secure some 10 admin accounts they can effectively
> > overwhelm any process we have on English Wikipedia.
> >
> > So lets discuss possible solutions and precautions.
> >
> > I recommend that foundation pass a ruling on the matter of lobby takeovers.
> > Although it goes without saying along with NPOV, spelling it out has
> > benefits and no harm. This way we can more easily and promptly purge them on
> > wikis that did not have a serious conversation on this matter enough to come
> > up with a policy.
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Lobby takeover of wikimedia projects, particularly English wikipedia [ In reply to ]

brian.mcneil at wikinewsie

May 6, 2008, 6:36 AM

Post #4 of 10 (747 views)

Permalink

This is blogosphere nonsense that there is a vast right-wing Jewish
conspiracy to slant Wikipedia.

Brian McNeil

-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Chad
Sent: 06 May 2008 15:28
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] [WikiEN-l] Lobby takeover of wikimedia
projects,particularly English wikipedia

Likewise, no clue what you're talking about.

-Chad

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Mark Williamson <node.ue@gmail.com> wrote:
> Camera incident? Sorry, I don't follow.
>
> Mark
>
> 2008/5/5 White Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com>:
>
>
> > Although it is a well known issue, this issue has finally made its way
to
> > spotlight with the ongoing CAMERA incident on English wikipedia... I
am sure
> > English wikipedia's arbcom will come up with a reasonable conclusion
and the
> > purpose of this email is not related to the CAMERA arbcom case
directly.
> >
> > Due to the very nature of wikis they are very open to outside
interference
> > and manipulation. Although there had been many discussions on the
matter,
> > they never generated the intended level of brainstorming.
> >
> > I am sure someone can provide a brief history of past external
manipulations
> > so I will avoid listing them on this email.
> >
> > You may be under the false impression that large wikis such as
en.wikipedia
> > is invulnerable to such attacks, but this would be a fatal mistake.
English
> > wikipedia is probably the most vulnerable language edition of
wikipedia. If
> > a lobby group were to secure some 10 admin accounts they can
effectively
> > overwhelm any process we have on English Wikipedia.
> >
> > So lets discuss possible solutions and precautions.
> >
> > I recommend that foundation pass a ruling on the matter of lobby
takeovers.
> > Although it goes without saying along with NPOV, spelling it out has
> > benefits and no harm. This way we can more easily and promptly purge
them on
> > wikis that did not have a serious conversation on this matter enough
to come
> > up with a policy.
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Lobby takeover of wikimedia projects, particularly English wikipedia [ In reply to ]

nawrich at gmail

May 6, 2008, 6:37 AM

Post #5 of 10 (755 views)

Permalink

The bulk of the discussion associated with this thread is actually on
WikiEn-l. CAMERA (Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in
America, www.camera.org) is a pro-Israel lobby group that had some e-mails
by members posted to www.electronicintifada.org that showed some of them
attempting to organize a campaign on English Wikipedia to influence
Israel-related articles. When it was posted to a noticeboard on the English
Wikipedia a group of editors and admins worked to connect e-mail addresses
to editors and as a result a number of people were banned, indefinitely
restricted, etc. There is a current arbitration case at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/CAMERA_lobbying.

Nathan

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 9:27 AM, Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com> wrote:

> Likewise, no clue what you're talking about.
>
>
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Lobby takeover of wikimedia projects, particularly English wikipedia [ In reply to ]

swatjester at gmail

May 6, 2008, 10:07 AM

Post #6 of 10 (747 views)

Permalink

Fearmongering. The integrity of the english wikipedia is not destroyed
because one or two articles within a very specific genre are being
attacked by POV pushers.

Until we have a committee for fairness and accuracy in Pokemon
Statistics disrupting english Wikipedia, I'm pretty sure our integrity
is safe.

-dan
On May 6, 2008, at 9:37 AM, Nathan wrote:

> The bulk of the discussion associated with this thread is actually on
> WikiEn-l. CAMERA (Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in
> America, www.camera.org) is a pro-Israel lobby group that had some e-
> mails
> by members posted to www.electronicintifada.org that showed some of
> them
> attempting to organize a campaign on English Wikipedia to influence
> Israel-related articles. When it was posted to a noticeboard on the
> English
> Wikipedia a group of editors and admins worked to connect e-mail
> addresses
> to editors and as a result a number of people were banned,
> indefinitely
> restricted, etc. There is a current arbitration case at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/CAMERA_lobbying
> .
>
>
> Nathan
>
> On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 9:27 AM, Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Likewise, no clue what you're talking about.
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Lobby takeover of wikimedia projects, particularly English wikipedia [ In reply to ]

wikipedia.kawaii.neko at gmail

May 8, 2008, 7:16 AM

Post #7 of 10 (714 views)

Permalink

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> White Cat wrote:
> > Although it is a well known issue, this issue has finally made its way to
> > spotlight with the ongoing CAMERA incident on English wikipedia... I am
> sure
> > English wikipedia's arbcom will come up with a reasonable conclusion and
> the
> > purpose of this email is not related to the CAMERA arbcom case directly.
>
> Which is good because it is likely most editors on Foundation mailing
> have no idea what the CAMERA incident is...
>

Yes, I know that. Which is the reason why I posted it on Foundation-l as
well as Wiki-en-l

> [...]
> > I recommend that foundation pass a ruling on the matter of lobby
> takeovers.
>
> Which type of ruling are you thinking of ?
>
> Ant
>

I am not entirely certain. Some sort of a *carefully worded* statement that
unwelcome systematic pov pushing. Really should go without saying...

This has happened many times before. Just to refresh your memory the Danish
Mohammed cartoon controversy, Youtube/Facebook based campaign to remove all
depictions of Mohamed from wikipedia, CAMERA incident are a few of the more
notable cases.

While English wikipedia is somewhat prepared to deal with such issues, other
wikis are quite ill prepared. It would immensely help if there was a global
rule on this issue.

Stewards will not be able to step in unless this is a general rule I think.
Or at least such a ruling would untie the hands of stewards and locals
alike.

- White Cat
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Lobby takeover of wikimedia projects, particularly English wikipedia [ In reply to ]

innocentkiller at gmail

May 9, 2008, 9:56 AM

Post #8 of 10 (715 views)

Permalink

Trying to game the system to push a point is disruptive. I believe
most communities pretty much accept the standard of "disruption
leads to blocking." Yes, they are subverting, but what difference
would a Foundation resolution make? It's not as though it would
make lobbyists suddenly admit themselves and say "Ah, you caught
me."

-Chad

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 10:16 AM, White Cat
<wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> White Cat wrote:
>> > Although it is a well known issue, this issue has finally made its way to
>> > spotlight with the ongoing CAMERA incident on English wikipedia... I am
>> sure
>> > English wikipedia's arbcom will come up with a reasonable conclusion and
>> the
>> > purpose of this email is not related to the CAMERA arbcom case directly.
>>
>> Which is good because it is likely most editors on Foundation mailing
>> have no idea what the CAMERA incident is...
>>
>
> Yes, I know that. Which is the reason why I posted it on Foundation-l as
> well as Wiki-en-l
>
>
>> [...]
>> > I recommend that foundation pass a ruling on the matter of lobby
>> takeovers.
>>
>> Which type of ruling are you thinking of ?
>>
>> Ant
>>
>
> I am not entirely certain. Some sort of a *carefully worded* statement that
> unwelcome systematic pov pushing. Really should go without saying...
>
> This has happened many times before. Just to refresh your memory the Danish
> Mohammed cartoon controversy, Youtube/Facebook based campaign to remove all
> depictions of Mohamed from wikipedia, CAMERA incident are a few of the more
> notable cases.
>
> While English wikipedia is somewhat prepared to deal with such issues, other
> wikis are quite ill prepared. It would immensely help if there was a global
> rule on this issue.
>
> Stewards will not be able to step in unless this is a general rule I think.
> Or at least such a ruling would untie the hands of stewards and locals
> alike.
>
> - White Cat
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Lobby takeover of wikimedia projects, particularly English wikipedia [ In reply to ]

dgerard at gmail

May 9, 2008, 12:15 PM

Post #9 of 10 (711 views)

Permalink

2008/5/9 Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com>:

> Trying to game the system to push a point is disruptive. I believe
> most communities pretty much accept the standard of "disruption
> leads to blocking." Yes, they are subverting, but what difference
> would a Foundation resolution make? It's not as though it would
> make lobbyists suddenly admit themselves and say "Ah, you caught
> me."

Well, yeah. The thing I've seen most rein in PR company blog advice on
how to get on Wikipedia is not "the Wikipedia community will be upset
at you" but - in the wake of WikiScanner's media moment - "the public
will lynch you and send your client's brand into the toilet."

Mission posters are of course much more Terminator-like in their
persistence. But with that sort of persistence comes stupidity.

- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Lobby takeover of wikimedia projects, particularly English wikipedia [ In reply to ]

dgoodmanny at gmail

May 9, 2008, 2:28 PM

Post #10 of 10 (717 views)

Permalink

No, it means the smart ones are still out there undetected. The smart
pr people in my subject area I can detect because I know perfectly
well who would be editing the subject with the knowledge shown. And if
they do it right i leave them alone.

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 3:15 PM, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/5/9 Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com>:
>
>> Trying to game the system to push a point is disruptive. I believe
>> most communities pretty much accept the standard of "disruption
>> leads to blocking." Yes, they are subverting, but what difference
>> would a Foundation resolution make? It's not as though it would
>> make lobbyists suddenly admit themselves and say "Ah, you caught
>> me."
>
>
> Well, yeah. The thing I've seen most rein in PR company blog advice on
> how to get on Wikipedia is not "the Wikipedia community will be upset
> at you" but - in the wake of WikiScanner's media moment - "the public
> will lynch you and send your client's brand into the toilet."
>
> Mission posters are of course much more Terminator-like in their
> persistence. But with that sort of persistence comes stupidity.
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>

--
David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG

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