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On 26/03/2008, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The Foundation really should start thinking for the future. I noticed that a couple people were talking about an endowment. For the WMF, what would a endowment require?

That would depend how much of our budget we want to it cover. The
latest budget was $4.6m for the year, if we wanted that all to be
covered by an endowment and we assume a return of 5% after tax and
inflation (perhaps a little optimistic - can anyone offer more than a
guess at a return? I'm basing my guess mainly on it making the maths
easier...) then we would need an endowment of $92m. That's a very
rough estimate, but it gives you an order of magnitude, at least.

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On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:31 PM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The Foundation really should start thinking for the future. I noticed that a couple people were talking about an endowment. For the WMF, what would a endowment require?
>
The existence of a government which is capable of exercising long-term
responsibility over its fiat currency?

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On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 4:31 PM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> The Foundation really should start thinking for the future. I noticed that
> a couple people were talking about an endowment. For the WMF, what would a
> endowment require?
>
>

The Wikipedia endowment article says large endowments will usuallly realize
a time averaged rate of return of ~10% (before inflation), so to generate 1
million dollars per year towards the budget you'd need to set aside at least
10 million dollars for investment. (In practice, endowments often reinvest
1/2 their gains, so the actual target income is often closer to 5%.)

While I don't think there is anything wrong with setting 10% or so of the
budget towards an endowment or long-term contigency, accumulating enough
capital to make it useful as an investment vehicle will take a long time.
In addition, for growing organizations, it often makes more financial sense
to spend money towards projects that will increase revenues. For example,
in the early going one would certainly expect to be able generate much more
than a 6% return for each dollar spent on fundraising initiatives.

-Robert Rohde
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On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:48 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 26/03/2008, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > The Foundation really should start thinking for the future. I noticed that a couple people were talking about an endowment. For the WMF, what would a endowment require?
>
> That would depend how much of our budget we want to it cover. The
> latest budget was $4.6m for the year, if we wanted that all to be
> covered by an endowment and we assume a return of 5% after tax and
> inflation (perhaps a little optimistic - can anyone offer more than a
> guess at a return? I'm basing my guess mainly on it making the maths
> easier...) then we would need an endowment of $92m. That's a very
> rough estimate, but it gives you an order of magnitude, at least.
>
Real interest rates on safe investments in the US are currently
negative by many accounts. Long-term, the 30-year inflation indexed
treasuries are yielding 1.87% over inflation, but that's before taxes.
After taxes, the rate would be much lower, maybe even negative, and
if the foundation chose to rely on an endowment rather than public
contributions it would become a private foundation and be subject to
taxes on its investment income.

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Anthony wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:31 PM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> The Foundation really should start thinking for the future. I noticed that a couple people were talking about an endowment. For the WMF, what would a endowment require?
>>
> The existence of a government which is capable of exercising long-term
> responsibility over its fiat currency?
So Euro investments would be preferable?

Ec

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Robert Rohde wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 4:31 PM, Geoffrey Plourde wrote:+
>
>> The Foundation really should start thinking for the future. I noticed that
>> a couple people were talking about an endowment. For the WMF, what would a
>> endowment require?
>>
> The Wikipedia endowment article says large endowments will usuallly realize
> a time averaged rate of return of ~10% (before inflation), so to generate 1
> million dollars per year towards the budget you'd need to set aside at least
> 10 million dollars for investment. (In practice, endowments often reinvest
> 1/2 their gains, so the actual target income is often closer to 5%.)
>
> While I don't think there is anything wrong with setting 10% or so of the
> budget towards an endowment or long-term contigency, accumulating enough
> capital to make it useful as an investment vehicle will take a long time.
> In addition, for growing organizations, it often makes more financial sense
> to spend money towards projects that will increase revenues. For example,
> in the early going one would certainly expect to be able generate much more
> than a 6% return for each dollar spent on fundraising initiatives.
While there certainly are high yield investments that could yield 10%,
it would be imprudent to use them as a basis for planning. They're not
without risks.


Ec

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Robert Rohde wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 4:31 PM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The Foundation really should start thinking for the future. I noticed that
>> a couple people were talking about an endowment. For the WMF, what would a
>> endowment require?
>>
>>
>
> The Wikipedia endowment article says large endowments will usuallly realize
> a time averaged rate of return of ~10% (before inflation), so to generate 1
> million dollars per year towards the budget you'd need to set aside at least
> 10 million dollars for investment. (In practice, endowments often reinvest
> 1/2 their gains, so the actual target income is often closer to 5%.)
>
> While I don't think there is anything wrong with setting 10% or so of the
> budget towards an endowment or long-term contigency, accumulating enough
> capital to make it useful as an investment vehicle will take a long time.
> In addition, for growing organizations, it often makes more financial sense
> to spend money towards projects that will increase revenues. For example,
> in the early going one would certainly expect to be able generate much more
> than a 6% return for each dollar spent on fundraising initiatives.
>
> -Robert Rohde

I know of many investors who would like to see a 10% return on
investment on their financial assets right now. To get such rates, one
really need to hire a really good (and really expensive) financial
advisor :-)

Ant


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What exactly are you thinking of investing in? Tax free munis? T-Bills? Money Market Account?

Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote: On 26/03/2008, Geoffrey Plourde wrote:
> The Foundation really should start thinking for the future. I noticed that a couple people were talking about an endowment. For the WMF, what would a endowment require?

That would depend how much of our budget we want to it cover. The
latest budget was $4.6m for the year, if we wanted that all to be
covered by an endowment and we assume a return of 5% after tax and
inflation (perhaps a little optimistic - can anyone offer more than a
guess at a return? I'm basing my guess mainly on it making the maths
easier...) then we would need an endowment of $92m. That's a very
rough estimate, but it gives you an order of magnitude, at least.

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On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
>
> I know of many investors who would like to see a 10% return on
> investment on their financial assets right now. To get such rates, one
> really need to hire a really good (and really expensive) financial
> advisor :-)
>

Yeah. To be fair, the endowments usually look at annualized returns across
decades. Back in the 80s and 90s you could get 10% returns while doing
little more than buying the Dow components, and effective financial
managers did considerably better. In the current investment environment,
you are right that practical returns are likely to be much less.

-Robert Rohde
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Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote: Robert Rohde wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 4:31 PM, Geoffrey Plourde
> wrote:
>
>> The Foundation really should start thinking for the future. I noticed that
>> a couple people were talking about an endowment. For the WMF, what would a
>> endowment require?
>>
>>
>
> The Wikipedia endowment article says large endowments will usuallly realize
> a time averaged rate of return of ~10% (before inflation), so to generate 1
> million dollars per year towards the budget you'd need to set aside at least
> 10 million dollars for investment. (In practice, endowments often reinvest
> 1/2 their gains, so the actual target income is often closer to 5%.)
>
> While I don't think there is anything wrong with setting 10% or so of the
> budget towards an endowment or long-term contigency, accumulating enough
> capital to make it useful as an investment vehicle will take a long time.
> In addition, for growing organizations, it often makes more financial sense
> to spend money towards projects that will increase revenues. For example,
> in the early going one would certainly expect to be able generate much more
> than a 6% return for each dollar spent on fundraising initiatives.
>
> -Robert Rohde

I know of many investors who would like to see a 10% return on
investment on their financial assets right now. To get such rates, one
really need to hire a really good (and really expensive) financial
advisor :-)

Ant


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*Coughs* Would any hidden financial advisor please step forward?

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On 27/03/2008, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com> wrote:
> What exactly are you thinking of investing in? Tax free munis? T-Bills? Money Market Account?

Whatever the foundation's professional expert advisers suggest.
Certainly something low risk (but maybe not so far as risk-free [yeah,
right!]).

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Risk free is like a free lunch :D

Does the Foundation have any experts?

Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
On 27/03/2008, Geoffrey Plourde wrote:
> What exactly are you thinking of investing in? Tax free munis? T-Bills? Money Market Account?

Whatever the foundation's professional expert advisers suggest.
Certainly something low risk (but maybe not so far as risk-free [yeah,
right!]).

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In this field, the Foundation just hired an accountant a few
days ago. As far as a financial adviser, I can't speak on Mary's
qualifications, as I do not know her personally or professionally.
However, before such a decision on this would be made, the
Foundation would need to seek out the advice of a trained
financial adviser who specializes in long-term investments for
non-profits.

If Mary has anything she'd like to add, I'd love to hear it :-)
(Also, I encourage all the new staff members to join foundation-l,
if no other reason than to keep abreast of all the goings-on)

-Chad

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 9:09 PM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Risk free is like a free lunch :D
>
> Does the Foundation have any experts?
>
>
> Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 27/03/2008, Geoffrey Plourde wrote:
> > What exactly are you thinking of investing in? Tax free munis? T-Bills? Money Market Account?
>
> Whatever the foundation's professional expert advisers suggest.
> Certainly something low risk (but maybe not so far as risk-free [yeah,
> right!]).
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
>
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On 27/03/2008, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Risk free is like a free lunch :D

If only free lunches were as useful in simplifying mathematics, I
could get my department to pay for my meals...

> Does the Foundation have any experts?

Investment experts? Probably not. Would be a waste of money seeing as
it doesn't have any significant investments yet. You don't need to
employ your own to use one, though.

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On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Investment experts? Probably not.
>

Why don't we just create an investment policy page on meta and let the
community work out the details?

...

:)
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On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 9:08 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 27/03/2008, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > What exactly are you thinking of investing in? Tax free munis? T-Bills? Money Market Account?
>
> Whatever the foundation's professional expert advisers suggest.

What if they suggest something icky, like Microsoft stock?

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Unless the community produces a financial adviser of its own
who suggests otherwise, I would go with what they suggest.

-Chad

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 9:08 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 27/03/2008, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > What exactly are you thinking of investing in? Tax free munis? T-Bills? Money Market Account?
> >
> > Whatever the foundation's professional expert advisers suggest.
>
> What if they suggest something icky, like Microsoft stock?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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On 27/03/2008, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 9:08 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 27/03/2008, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > What exactly are you thinking of investing in? Tax free munis? T-Bills? Money Market Account?
> >
> > Whatever the foundation's professional expert advisers suggest.
>
>
> What if they suggest something icky, like Microsoft stock?

If we're that anti-Microsoft, we can just tell the advisers that and
they can tailor their advice accordingly.

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I'm not sure that we are anti-Microsoft. The Foundation has been open to
accepting funding from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. We all know
which corporation's CEO earned that money. In other domains, such as cancer
research, their has typically been a public outcry when it becomes known
that a tobacco company, usually via proxy of a non-profit, funded the
research. I heard no such outcry. It just happened to be that the B&M Gates
Foundation is clueless in this domain.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/26/health/research/26lung.html


On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 27/03/2008, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 9:08 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > On 27/03/2008, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > What exactly are you thinking of investing in? Tax free munis?
> T-Bills? Money Market Account?
> > >
> > > Whatever the foundation's professional expert advisers suggest.
> >
> >
> > What if they suggest something icky, like Microsoft stock?
>
> If we're that anti-Microsoft, we can just tell the advisers that and
> they can tailor their advice accordingly.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>
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On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:26 PM, Brian <Brian.Mingus@colorado.edu> wrote:
> I'm not sure that we are anti-Microsoft.

Personally, I'm not at all anti-Microsoft. In fact, about a week ago
I was a bona-fide Microsoft shareholder (sold to pay off some bills).

But I thought their name was invariably brought up whenever allowing
advertisements is discussed.

> The Foundation has been open to accepting funding from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

Accepting funding from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is quite
different from providing funding for Microsoft, though. But on that
front, I remember the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation specifically
being brought up as an example of an organization we shouldn't
support, during the uproar over Virgin Unite.

I dunno, I think it'd be controversial, and I'm not sure just telling
the advisors not to invest in certain companies would eliminate the
controversy. In fact, doing so would probably just increase the
controversy, in deciding which companies to include in such a list.

Of course, I suppose that's a problem that's more easily solved once
the money is in place. After all, if a benefactor wants to donate
$100 million for an endowment, s/he'd most likely have the most say in
what types of restrictions, if any, would be put on the investments.
Not that $100 million would be anywhere near enough to sustain the
WMF. It would probably be enough to sustain wikipedia.org for a long
time (barring a total financial collapse in the invested markets), but
at the point where the WMF is staring at $100 million I hope its sites
would be set on loftier goals than just distributing an encyclopedia
over the Internet.

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Well, what if another Foundation was set up. The WMF would focus on the wiki project and the second foundation would build an endowment and fulfill the mission from a physical perspective.



----- Original Message ----
From: Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 7:47:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Thinking for the Future

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:26 PM, Brian <Brian.Mingus@colorado.edu> wrote:
> I'm not sure that we are anti-Microsoft.

Personally, I'm not at all anti-Microsoft. In fact, about a week ago
I was a bona-fide Microsoft shareholder (sold to pay off some bills).

But I thought their name was invariably brought up whenever allowing
advertisements is discussed.

> The Foundation has been open to accepting funding from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

Accepting funding from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is quite
different from providing funding for Microsoft, though. But on that
front, I remember the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation specifically
being brought up as an example of an organization we shouldn't
support, during the uproar over Virgin Unite.

I dunno, I think it'd be controversial, and I'm not sure just telling
the advisors not to invest in certain companies would eliminate the
controversy. In fact, doing so would probably just increase the
controversy, in deciding which companies to include in such a list.

Of course, I suppose that's a problem that's more easily solved once
the money is in place. After all, if a benefactor wants to donate
$100 million for an endowment, s/he'd most likely have the most say in
what types of restrictions, if any, would be put on the investments.
Not that $100 million would be anywhere near enough to sustain the
WMF. It would probably be enough to sustain wikipedia.org for a long
time (barring a total financial collapse in the invested markets), but
at the point where the WMF is staring at $100 million I hope its sites
would be set on loftier goals than just distributing an encyclopedia
over the Internet.

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Who particularly cares if it is Microsoft stock. Wouldn't anyone here love to have power over Bill Gates?



----- Original Message ----
From: Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 7:11:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Thinking for the Future

On 27/03/2008, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 9:08 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 27/03/2008, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > What exactly are you thinking of investing in? Tax free munis? T-Bills? Money Market Account?
> >
> > Whatever the foundation's professional expert advisers suggest.
>
>
> What if they suggest something icky, like Microsoft stock?

If we're that anti-Microsoft, we can just tell the advisers that and
they can tailor their advice accordingly.

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That's a damned good idea. Should I do it? Or create an Endowment Group?



----- Original Message ----
From: Brian <Brian.Mingus@colorado.edu>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:44:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Thinking for the Future

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Investment experts? Probably not.
>

Why don't we just create an investment policy page on meta and let the
community work out the details?

...

:)
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What I am thinking here is getting a bunch of people together who are interested in it and making a proposal to put in the filing cabinet should the Foundation decide that an endowment is a good idea.



----- Original Message ----
From: Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 9:51:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Thinking for the Future

That's a damned good idea. Should I do it? Or create an Endowment Group?



----- Original Message ----
From: Brian <Brian.Mingus@colorado.edu>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:44:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Thinking for the Future

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Investment experts? Probably not.
>

Why don't we just create an investment policy page on meta and let the
community work out the details?

...

:)
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