Mailing List Archive

Hoi,
Having individual people opt out of ads is no problem. You can already do
this by including add stoppers in your browser. This is no issue.

When projects opt out, it means that they are not part of the solution. In
the past the question was asked what the consequences would be for a project
that opts out. When opt out for projects are accepted, one modifier would be
to have another skin that is free of adverts, it not being the default skin.

The biggest question that nobody is asking is, what would the technical
requirements be for an add provider. We could consider things like
completely anonymous adds ie the same adds for everyone on the same page.
Maybe with a modifier for the language selected by a user..
Thanks,
GerardM

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com> wrote:

> On the subject of ads, I have a question. Given that all registered users
> can
> edit their WP stylesheet to suit their needs, /if/ ads were added, what's
> to
> keep the registered users from putting something like .ads {display:
> none;}
> to make sure they saw nothing? And by that extension, what's to keep
> a project from adding that to their local mediawiki's stylesheet? I would
> assume a policy would exist to prohibit the latter.
>
> Just some food for thought.
>
> -Chad
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Let's assume projects can opt-out, and this must be approved
by the Board (as they are ultimately responsible for fiscal
matters). For the sake of arguments, let's pretend enwiki came
to a fairly clear consensus that they wished to opt-out of WMF
ads. Wouldn't this basically kill the entire ads cash-cow right
there?

Now, continuing this scenario, I can imagine the Board would
probably reject an opt-out from the largest project. This begs
the question: does the Foundation see all projects in an
equal light?

-Chad

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 7:51 AM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> Having individual people opt out of ads is no problem. You can already do
> this by including add stoppers in your browser. This is no issue.
>
> When projects opt out, it means that they are not part of the solution. In
> the past the question was asked what the consequences would be for a project
> that opts out. When opt out for projects are accepted, one modifier would be
> to have another skin that is free of adverts, it not being the default skin.
>
> The biggest question that nobody is asking is, what would the technical
> requirements be for an add provider. We could consider things like
> completely anonymous adds ie the same adds for everyone on the same page.
> Maybe with a modifier for the language selected by a user..
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On the subject of ads, I have a question. Given that all registered users
> > can
> > edit their WP stylesheet to suit their needs, /if/ ads were added, what's
> > to
> > keep the registered users from putting something like .ads {display:
> > none;}
> > to make sure they saw nothing? And by that extension, what's to keep
> > a project from adding that to their local mediawiki's stylesheet? I would
> > assume a policy would exist to prohibit the latter.
> >
> > Just some food for thought.
> >
> > -Chad
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Hoi,
When the question was asked what the consequences would be for a project
that chooses to opt out of adverts, it was thought an improper question.
Obviously, when the English Wikipedia opts out, what would the consequences
be for that project as in what would be done for other projects that would
not be done for it?

As the English Wikipedia IS the biggest project, it gets the most attention.
Problems in other projects are not considered in the same way or are not
considered at all. They do not get attention or technical requirements to
write a language are dismissed out of hand because they upset the way things
are. So effectively the projects are not seen in the same light.
Thanks,
GerardM

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com> wrote:

> Let's assume projects can opt-out, and this must be approved
> by the Board (as they are ultimately responsible for fiscal
> matters). For the sake of arguments, let's pretend enwiki came
> to a fairly clear consensus that they wished to opt-out of WMF
> ads. Wouldn't this basically kill the entire ads cash-cow right
> there?
>
> Now, continuing this scenario, I can imagine the Board would
> probably reject an opt-out from the largest project. This begs
> the question: does the Foundation see all projects in an
> equal light?
>
> -Chad
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 7:51 AM, Gerard Meijssen
> <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > Having individual people opt out of ads is no problem. You can already
> do
> > this by including add stoppers in your browser. This is no issue.
> >
> > When projects opt out, it means that they are not part of the solution.
> In
> > the past the question was asked what the consequences would be for a
> project
> > that opts out. When opt out for projects are accepted, one modifier
> would be
> > to have another skin that is free of adverts, it not being the default
> skin.
> >
> > The biggest question that nobody is asking is, what would the technical
> > requirements be for an add provider. We could consider things like
> > completely anonymous adds ie the same adds for everyone on the same
> page.
> > Maybe with a modifier for the language selected by a user..
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On the subject of ads, I have a question. Given that all registered
> users
> > > can
> > > edit their WP stylesheet to suit their needs, /if/ ads were added,
> what's
> > > to
> > > keep the registered users from putting something like .ads {display:
> > > none;}
> > > to make sure they saw nothing? And by that extension, what's to keep
> > > a project from adding that to their local mediawiki's stylesheet? I
> would
> > > assume a policy would exist to prohibit the latter.
> > >
> > > Just some food for thought.
> > >
> > > -Chad
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Chad wrote:
> On the subject of ads, I have a question. Given that all registered users can
> edit their WP stylesheet to suit their needs, /if/ ads were added, what's to
> keep the registered users from putting something like .ads {display: none;}
> to make sure they saw nothing? And by that extension, what's to keep
> a project from adding that to their local mediawiki's stylesheet? I would
> assume a policy would exist to prohibit the latter.
>
> Just some food for thought.
To be grammatically accurate your premise should read "Given that all
registered users_ may _edit their WP stylesheet..." That would clarify
that the permission is active without implying an equivalent degree of
skill. In reality, only a limited segment of the community _can_ edit
these arcane structures.

Ec

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I'm as much concerned about the pernicious effect of advertisements on
the unregistered users, the people who just come to read wikipedia.

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 5:19 PM, Ray Saintonge <saintonge@telus.net> wrote:
> Chad wrote:
> > On the subject of ads, I have a question. Given that all registered users can
> > edit their WP stylesheet to suit their needs, /if/ ads were added, what's to
> > keep the registered users from putting something like .ads {display: none;}
> > to make sure they saw nothing? And by that extension, what's to keep
> > a project from adding that to their local mediawiki's stylesheet? I would
> > assume a policy would exist to prohibit the latter.
> >
> > Just some food for thought.
> To be grammatically accurate your premise should read "Given that all
> registered users_ may _edit their WP stylesheet..." That would clarify
> that the permission is active without implying an equivalent degree of
> skill. In reality, only a limited segment of the community _can_ edit
> these arcane structures.
>
> Ec
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG

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People who edit wikipedia are a very tiny minority of the peole who actually
use wikipedia. Most annoying thing on any website is the stupid
advertisements that get in the way.

- White Cat

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com> wrote:

> Let's assume projects can opt-out, and this must be approved
> by the Board (as they are ultimately responsible for fiscal
> matters). For the sake of arguments, let's pretend enwiki came
> to a fairly clear consensus that they wished to opt-out of WMF
> ads. Wouldn't this basically kill the entire ads cash-cow right
> there?
>
> Now, continuing this scenario, I can imagine the Board would
> probably reject an opt-out from the largest project. This begs
> the question: does the Foundation see all projects in an
> equal light?
>
> -Chad
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 7:51 AM, Gerard Meijssen
> <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > Having individual people opt out of ads is no problem. You can already
> do
> > this by including add stoppers in your browser. This is no issue.
> >
> > When projects opt out, it means that they are not part of the solution.
> In
> > the past the question was asked what the consequences would be for a
> project
> > that opts out. When opt out for projects are accepted, one modifier
> would be
> > to have another skin that is free of adverts, it not being the default
> skin.
> >
> > The biggest question that nobody is asking is, what would the technical
> > requirements be for an add provider. We could consider things like
> > completely anonymous adds ie the same adds for everyone on the same
> page.
> > Maybe with a modifier for the language selected by a user..
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On the subject of ads, I have a question. Given that all registered
> users
> > > can
> > > edit their WP stylesheet to suit their needs, /if/ ads were added,
> what's
> > > to
> > > keep the registered users from putting something like .ads {display:
> > > none;}
> > > to make sure they saw nothing? And by that extension, what's to keep
> > > a project from adding that to their local mediawiki's stylesheet? I
> would
> > > assume a policy would exist to prohibit the latter.
> > >
> > > Just some food for thought.
> > >
> > > -Chad
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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How about just adding a button that says "Turn off advertisements" that
works just like the "close" button for the sitenotice?

2008/3/19, White Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com>:
>
> People who edit wikipedia are a very tiny minority of the peole who
> actually
> use wikipedia. Most annoying thing on any website is the stupid
> advertisements that get in the way.
>
>
> - White Cat
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Let's assume projects can opt-out, and this must be approved
> > by the Board (as they are ultimately responsible for fiscal
> > matters). For the sake of arguments, let's pretend enwiki came
> > to a fairly clear consensus that they wished to opt-out of WMF
> > ads. Wouldn't this basically kill the entire ads cash-cow right
> > there?
> >
> > Now, continuing this scenario, I can imagine the Board would
> > probably reject an opt-out from the largest project. This begs
> > the question: does the Foundation see all projects in an
> > equal light?
> >
> > -Chad
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 7:51 AM, Gerard Meijssen
> > <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hoi,
> > > Having individual people opt out of ads is no problem. You can
> already
> > do
> > > this by including add stoppers in your browser. This is no issue.
> > >
> > > When projects opt out, it means that they are not part of the
> solution.
> > In
> > > the past the question was asked what the consequences would be for a
> > project
> > > that opts out. When opt out for projects are accepted, one modifier
> > would be
> > > to have another skin that is free of adverts, it not being the
> default
> > skin.
> > >
> > > The biggest question that nobody is asking is, what would the
> technical
> > > requirements be for an add provider. We could consider things like
> > > completely anonymous adds ie the same adds for everyone on the same
> > page.
> > > Maybe with a modifier for the language selected by a user..
> > > Thanks,
> > > GerardM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On the subject of ads, I have a question. Given that all registered
> > users
> > > > can
> > > > edit their WP stylesheet to suit their needs, /if/ ads were added,
> > what's
> > > > to
> > > > keep the registered users from putting something like .ads
> {display:
> > > > none;}
> > > > to make sure they saw nothing? And by that extension, what's to
> keep
> > > > a project from adding that to their local mediawiki's stylesheet? I
> > would
> > > > assume a policy would exist to prohibit the latter.
> > > >
> > > > Just some food for thought.
> > > >
> > > > -Chad
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
Jon Harald Søby
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jon_Harald_S%C3%B8by
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I still don't think we need advertisements. And if ads can simply be closed
forever with one click forever (like how it is on site notice) there may not
be much point to have them. Ads are supposed to be annoying so they catch
your attention.

- White Cat

On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 12:05 AM, Jon Harald Søby <jhsoby@gmail.com> wrote:

> How about just adding a button that says "Turn off advertisements" that
> works just like the "close" button for the sitenotice?
>
> 2008/3/19, White Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com>:
> >
> > People who edit wikipedia are a very tiny minority of the peole who
> > actually
> > use wikipedia. Most annoying thing on any website is the stupid
> > advertisements that get in the way.
> >
> >
> > - White Cat
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Jon Harald Søby
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jon_Harald_S%C3%B8by
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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That's totally wrong. Even with a "hide forever" button, 90% of
wikipedia's visitors will probably not bother to click it (and another
5% will already have adblock software installed). Never, ever assume
the general public thinks the same way tech-savvy people do.

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 7:47 PM, White Cat
<wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com> wrote:
> I still don't think we need advertisements. And if ads can simply be closed
> forever with one click forever (like how it is on site notice) there may not
> be much point to have them. Ads are supposed to be annoying so they catch
> your attention.
>
> - White Cat
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 12:05 AM, Jon Harald Søby <jhsoby@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > How about just adding a button that says "Turn off advertisements" that
> > works just like the "close" button for the sitenotice?
> >
> > 2008/3/19, White Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > People who edit wikipedia are a very tiny minority of the peole who
> > > actually
> > > use wikipedia. Most annoying thing on any website is the stupid
> > > advertisements that get in the way.
> > >
> > >
> > > - White Cat
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jon Harald Søby
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jon_Harald_S%C3%B8by
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
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--
Ben Yates
Wikipedia blog - http://wikip.blogspot.com

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Another option is to show ads to readers and not to logged-in editors by
default.

A similar thing has been done with the Anonnotice making an appeal for
donations only to readers.

-Robert Rohde

PS. Was the Anonnotice appeal intentionally disabled on EN? It seems to
have been turned off some months ago, but similar notices appear in several
other languages.

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 4:20 AM, Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com> wrote:

> On the subject of ads, I have a question. Given that all registered users
> can
> edit their WP stylesheet to suit their needs, /if/ ads were added, what's
> to
> keep the registered users from putting something like .ads {display:
> none;}
> to make sure they saw nothing? And by that extension, what's to keep
> a project from adding that to their local mediawiki's stylesheet? I would
> assume a policy would exist to prohibit the latter.
>
> Just some food for thought.
>
> -Chad
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Wikinews has the following code in its sitenotice...

{{#switch:{{#expr:{{CURRENTTIMESTAMP}} mod 8}}|0=Did last week go by in a
blur, or do you remember your current affairs?
<br>Take the '''[[Wikinews:World News Quiz|World News Quiz]]'''!
|1=Want Wikinews on the go?
<br>Read our daily '''[[Wikinews:Print edition|Print Edition]]'''!</br>
|2=Wikinews is written by people like you. Did you see something deserving
of an article?<br/>
Learn how to '''[[Wikinews:Writing_an_article|Write an article]]'''!
|3=Have a question about Wikinews?<br/>
Ask at the
'''[http://en.wikinews.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikinews:Water_cooler/assistan
ce&action=edit&section=new&preload=Template:Water_cooler/fromsitenotice
Water Cooler]'''.
|4=Want to know what the weather is like?<br/>
View the current temperature in [[Template:Weather World C|&deg;C]] or
[[Template:Weather World F|&deg;F]].
|5=Help keep knowledge free.<br>[[wikimedia:Fundraising|Donate]]
|6=Want to know how Wikinews works?<br/>
Walk into our '''[[Wikinews:Newsroom|Newsroom]]'''!
|7=Walk into our [[Wikinews:Audio Wikinews|audio room]]!
}}

Note the "Help keep knowledge free.<br>[[wikimedia:Fundraising|Donate]]"
option in that list.

For all anon users one of these messages is always displayed. For registered
users there is the option to dismiss this until [[Mediawiki:Sitenotice id]]
is updated, but as it generally changes with every page you load and is
relatively unobtrusive I suspect few bother to.

My personal opinion is that most projects should adopt something like this
for the sitenotice when there is not a special reason to have a static,
specific message. A fixed message is something people learn to tune out very
quickly, but if it changes almost every page view then there is a higher
likelihood of it being read.


Brian McNeil
-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Robert Rohde
Sent: 20 March 2008 15:15
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ads and monobook

Another option is to show ads to readers and not to logged-in editors by
default.

A similar thing has been done with the Anonnotice making an appeal for
donations only to readers.

-Robert Rohde

PS. Was the Anonnotice appeal intentionally disabled on EN? It seems to
have been turned off some months ago, but similar notices appear in several
other languages.

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 4:20 AM, Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com> wrote:

> On the subject of ads, I have a question. Given that all registered users
> can
> edit their WP stylesheet to suit their needs, /if/ ads were added, what's
> to
> keep the registered users from putting something like .ads {display:
> none;}
> to make sure they saw nothing? And by that extension, what's to keep
> a project from adding that to their local mediawiki's stylesheet? I would
> assume a policy would exist to prohibit the latter.
>
> Just some food for thought.
>
> -Chad
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Chad wrote:
> Let's assume projects can opt-out, and this must be approved
> by the Board (as they are ultimately responsible for fiscal
> matters). For the sake of arguments, let's pretend enwiki came
> to a fairly clear consensus that they wished to opt-out of WMF
> ads. Wouldn't this basically kill the entire ads cash-cow right
> there?
>
> Now, continuing this scenario, I can imagine the Board would
> probably reject an opt-out from the largest project. This begs
> the question: does the Foundation see all projects in an
> equal light?
>
> -Chad


That's an excellent question !

I am tempted to return it back first.

If all the languages were voting independently from one another, for
opt-in or opt-out... how would you feel if en.wiki would vote for "no
ads", whilst ja.wiki vote for "yes" ?
Would you rather consider the global project, or would you be willing to
accept diversity ? Should it be a global decision, or a local one ?

I guess that a global decision would make the issue a "core principle"
whilst a local decision would make the advertisement issue a "mild
principle".

ant


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Great thoughts, and I like where you're going with this. A global
policy from the Foundation saying, "we have ads that can
be enabled, if your project so chooses to support the Foundation
as such" would work well. Then it would be up the individual
communities to decide how ads fit in with their values and
their views on our global principles. As you say, it could very
well be that Jawiki and Enwiki take two different stances.

And this is a good thing! I would very much support such a
direction, as it would put the decision solely in the projects
hands. It would also (probably) keep the smaller projects
ad-free, which wouldn't be huge sources of revenue anyway
due to their lower traffic as compared to the top language
'pedias.

Even if all projects don't adopt it, /some/ adopting it would still
increase revenue without having to put ads all over every site.
(Potentially, give projects options between search-ads only
or on search and articles).

-Chad

On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Chad wrote:
> > Let's assume projects can opt-out, and this must be approved
> > by the Board (as they are ultimately responsible for fiscal
> > matters). For the sake of arguments, let's pretend enwiki came
> > to a fairly clear consensus that they wished to opt-out of WMF
> > ads. Wouldn't this basically kill the entire ads cash-cow right
> > there?
> >
> > Now, continuing this scenario, I can imagine the Board would
> > probably reject an opt-out from the largest project. This begs
> > the question: does the Foundation see all projects in an
> > equal light?
> >
> > -Chad
>
>
> That's an excellent question !
>
> I am tempted to return it back first.
>
> If all the languages were voting independently from one another, for
> opt-in or opt-out... how would you feel if en.wiki would vote for "no
> ads", whilst ja.wiki vote for "yes" ?
> Would you rather consider the global project, or would you be willing to
> accept diversity ? Should it be a global decision, or a local one ?
>
> I guess that a global decision would make the issue a "core principle"
> whilst a local decision would make the advertisement issue a "mild
> principle".
>
> ant
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Chad wrote:
> > Let's assume projects can opt-out, and this must be approved
> > by the Board (as they are ultimately responsible for fiscal
> > matters). For the sake of arguments, let's pretend enwiki came
> > to a fairly clear consensus that they wished to opt-out of WMF
> > ads. Wouldn't this basically kill the entire ads cash-cow right
> > there?
> >
> > Now, continuing this scenario, I can imagine the Board would
> > probably reject an opt-out from the largest project. This begs
> > the question: does the Foundation see all projects in an
> > equal light?
> >
> > -Chad
>
>
> That's an excellent question !
>
> I am tempted to return it back first.
>
> If all the languages were voting independently from one another, for
> opt-in or opt-out... how would you feel if en.wiki would vote for "no
> ads", whilst ja.wiki vote for "yes" ?
> Would you rather consider the global project, or would you be willing to
> accept diversity ? Should it be a global decision, or a local one ?
>
> I guess that a global decision would make the issue a "core principle"
> whilst a local decision would make the advertisement issue a "mild
> principle".
>

To date it would appear that the WMF has been very intolerant to community
variations or differentiation on funding matters. Unless you are suggesting
that the WMF actually might allow individual projects to control their own
advertising initiatives, then I think this particular thread of the
conversation is pointless.

To raise a similar example, as far as I know individual projects have never
been asked whether or not they want to participate in Foundation fund
drives, or how they want them to be run. When the last fund drive was
launched with that abominable scrolling marquee (which gave a jittery
appearance for most users and outright crashed some older browsers), enwiki
discussed unilaterally removing it and people were threatened with instant
desysopping on the basis that project admins aren't allowed to interfere
with Foundation initiatives.

Obviously the immediate fundraiser issues were resolved eventually, but the
impression some of us were left with was that the Foundation would simply
impose these funding initiatives from above (with little concern for
community input or feedback) and with no tolerance for community
interference.

There are reasonable arguments for why funding drives ought to be run from
above, but let's be clear, if you are actually suggesting that
projects might be given local control over advertising and funding
initiatives then that is very different from how things have been run
historically.

-Robert Rohde
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Robert Rohde wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Chad wrote:
>>> Let's assume projects can opt-out, and this must be approved
>>> by the Board (as they are ultimately responsible for fiscal
>>> matters). For the sake of arguments, let's pretend enwiki came
>>> to a fairly clear consensus that they wished to opt-out of WMF
>>> ads. Wouldn't this basically kill the entire ads cash-cow right
>>> there?
>>>
>>> Now, continuing this scenario, I can imagine the Board would
>>> probably reject an opt-out from the largest project. This begs
>>> the question: does the Foundation see all projects in an
>>> equal light?
>>>
>>> -Chad
>>
>> That's an excellent question !
>>
>> I am tempted to return it back first.
>>
>> If all the languages were voting independently from one another, for
>> opt-in or opt-out... how would you feel if en.wiki would vote for "no
>> ads", whilst ja.wiki vote for "yes" ?
>> Would you rather consider the global project, or would you be willing to
>> accept diversity ? Should it be a global decision, or a local one ?
>>
>> I guess that a global decision would make the issue a "core principle"
>> whilst a local decision would make the advertisement issue a "mild
>> principle".
>>
>
> To date it would appear that the WMF has been very intolerant to community
> variations or differentiation on funding matters. Unless you are suggesting
> that the WMF actually might allow individual projects to control their own
> advertising initiatives, then I think this particular thread of the
> conversation is pointless.
>
> To raise a similar example, as far as I know individual projects have never
> been asked whether or not they want to participate in Foundation fund
> drives, or how they want them to be run. When the last fund drive was
> launched with that abominable scrolling marquee (which gave a jittery
> appearance for most users and outright crashed some older browsers), enwiki
> discussed unilaterally removing it and people were threatened with instant
> desysopping on the basis that project admins aren't allowed to interfere
> with Foundation initiatives.
>
> Obviously the immediate fundraiser issues were resolved eventually, but the
> impression some of us were left with was that the Foundation would simply
> impose these funding initiatives from above (with little concern for
> community input or feedback) and with no tolerance for community
> interference.
>
> There are reasonable arguments for why funding drives ought to be run from
> above, but let's be clear, if you are actually suggesting that
> projects might be given local control over advertising and funding
> initiatives then that is very different from how things have been run
> historically.
>
> -Robert Rohde


There is a time for brainstorming. And there is a time for decision.

Usually, during brainstorming times, it is suggested to welcome any
suggestions and questions, regardless of how crazy they appear to be,
because they can bring fresh ideas. Also, severe criticism during
brainstorming is usually not recommanded because it tends to frighten
the more hesitant and timid into not giving their ideas.

(note that I am not timid, but others may be :-))

ant


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I would support self determination. It sounds like a better solution than sitting here bickering over a global determination.



----- Original Message ----
From: Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>
To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 11:57:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ads and monobook

Robert Rohde wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Chad wrote:
>>> Let's assume projects can opt-out, and this must be approved
>>> by the Board (as they are ultimately responsible for fiscal
>>> matters). For the sake of arguments, let's pretend enwiki came
>>> to a fairly clear consensus that they wished to opt-out of WMF
>>> ads. Wouldn't this basically kill the entire ads cash-cow right
>>> there?
>>>
>>> Now, continuing this scenario, I can imagine the Board would
>>> probably reject an opt-out from the largest project. This begs
>>> the question: does the Foundation see all projects in an
>>> equal light?
>>>
>>> -Chad
>>
>> That's an excellent question !
>>
>> I am tempted to return it back first.
>>
>> If all the languages were voting independently from one another, for
>> opt-in or opt-out... how would you feel if en.wiki would vote for "no
>> ads", whilst ja.wiki vote for "yes" ?
>> Would you rather consider the global project, or would you be willing to
>> accept diversity ? Should it be a global decision, or a local one ?
>>
>> I guess that a global decision would make the issue a "core principle"
>> whilst a local decision would make the advertisement issue a "mild
>> principle".
>>
>
> To date it would appear that the WMF has been very intolerant to community
> variations or differentiation on funding matters. Unless you are suggesting
> that the WMF actually might allow individual projects to control their own
> advertising initiatives, then I think this particular thread of the
> conversation is pointless.
>
> To raise a similar example, as far as I know individual projects have never
> been asked whether or not they want to participate in Foundation fund
> drives, or how they want them to be run. When the last fund drive was
> launched with that abominable scrolling marquee (which gave a jittery
> appearance for most users and outright crashed some older browsers), enwiki
> discussed unilaterally removing it and people were threatened with instant
> desysopping on the basis that project admins aren't allowed to interfere
> with Foundation initiatives.
>
> Obviously the immediate fundraiser issues were resolved eventually, but the
> impression some of us were left with was that the Foundation would simply
> impose these funding initiatives from above (with little concern for
> community input or feedback) and with no tolerance for community
> interference.
>
> There are reasonable arguments for why funding drives ought to be run from
> above, but let's be clear, if you are actually suggesting that
> projects might be given local control over advertising and funding
> initiatives then that is very different from how things have been run
> historically.
>
> -Robert Rohde


There is a time for brainstorming. And there is a time for decision.

Usually, during brainstorming times, it is suggested to welcome any
suggestions and questions, regardless of how crazy they appear to be,
because they can bring fresh ideas. Also, severe criticism during
brainstorming is usually not recommanded because it tends to frighten
the more hesitant and timid into not giving their ideas.

(note that I am not timid, but others may be :-))

ant


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On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 4:53 AM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If all the languages were voting independently from one another, for
> opt-in or opt-out... how would you feel if en.wiki would vote for "no
> ads", whilst ja.wiki vote for "yes" ?
> Would you rather consider the global project, or would you be willing to
> accept diversity ? Should it be a global decision, or a local one ?
>
> I guess that a global decision would make the issue a "core principle"
> whilst a local decision would make the advertisement issue a "mild
> principle".

I'm not in support of ads on Wikipedia, but since you're discussing
this, I think you also need to ask the question would there be any
point enabling ads on most of the projects? Google adsense doesn't
generate a lot of revenue on non-English sites anyway, so you might
find ads on the English Wikipedia only generates more than enough
revenue without having to touch the other projects. It's been
suggested that the English Wikipedia is now practically impossible to
fork successfully, but the same isn't true of Lithuanian Wikibooks or
most of the other 600 wikis. Why risk forks on wikis that would only
be bringing in a few cents a day?

Angela

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Hoi,
Why the assumption that Google would be the automatic provider of adverts ?
When adverts in languages like Serbian, Russian or Bengali do not get us the
revenues that are reasonable, we could look for a local partner that does a
better job for us.
Thanks,
Gerard

On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 9:18 PM, Angela <beesley@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 4:53 AM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > If all the languages were voting independently from one another, for
> > opt-in or opt-out... how would you feel if en.wiki would vote for "no
> > ads", whilst ja.wiki vote for "yes" ?
> > Would you rather consider the global project, or would you be willing
> to
> > accept diversity ? Should it be a global decision, or a local one ?
> >
> > I guess that a global decision would make the issue a "core principle"
> > whilst a local decision would make the advertisement issue a "mild
> > principle".
>
> I'm not in support of ads on Wikipedia, but since you're discussing
> this, I think you also need to ask the question would there be any
> point enabling ads on most of the projects? Google adsense doesn't
> generate a lot of revenue on non-English sites anyway, so you might
> find ads on the English Wikipedia only generates more than enough
> revenue without having to touch the other projects. It's been
> suggested that the English Wikipedia is now practically impossible to
> fork successfully, but the same isn't true of Lithuanian Wikibooks or
> most of the other 600 wikis. Why risk forks on wikis that would only
> be bringing in a few cents a day?
>
> Angela
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> When adverts in languages like Serbian, Russian or Bengali do not get us the
> revenues that are reasonable, we could look for a local partner that does a
> better job for us.

We could, but it would likely cost more to hire people to do that than
those sites would bring in. I'm very doubtful that volunteers would
want to handle ad sales. Ad sales staff are extremely expensive and I
don't think the traffic to our wikis in Serbia etc justify that cost,
particularly when it's not necessary if ads on the English Wikipedia
alone would bring in enough money to meet the current budget.

Angela

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Actually has anyone started straw polls yet?



----- Original Message ----
From: Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>
To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 10:53:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ads and monobook

Chad wrote:
> Let's assume projects can opt-out, and this must be approved
> by the Board (as they are ultimately responsible for fiscal
> matters). For the sake of arguments, let's pretend enwiki came
> to a fairly clear consensus that they wished to opt-out of WMF
> ads. Wouldn't this basically kill the entire ads cash-cow right
> there?
>
> Now, continuing this scenario, I can imagine the Board would
> probably reject an opt-out from the largest project. This begs
> the question: does the Foundation see all projects in an
> equal light?
>
> -Chad


That's an excellent question !

I am tempted to return it back first.

If all the languages were voting independently from one another, for
opt-in or opt-out... how would you feel if en.wiki would vote for "no
ads", whilst ja.wiki vote for "yes" ?
Would you rather consider the global project, or would you be willing to
accept diversity ? Should it be a global decision, or a local one ?

I guess that a global decision would make the issue a "core principle"
whilst a local decision would make the advertisement issue a "mild
principle".

ant


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Who do you propose that we poll? I have suggested that we poll the visitors
to Special:Search, as they are the folks who will actually be looking at the
advertisements. That poll has definitely not occured. I think it's clear
what will happen if you seek out active contributors to Wikipedia. Those
with the loudest voices will drown out those who were unaware of the "poll,"
as demonstrated here:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Polls#Numbers_of_users_for_and_against_ads_on_the_English_Wikipedia
.

On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 7:58 PM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Actually has anyone started straw polls yet?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>
> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 10:53:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ads and monobook
>
> Chad wrote:
> > Let's assume projects can opt-out, and this must be approved
> > by the Board (as they are ultimately responsible for fiscal
> > matters). For the sake of arguments, let's pretend enwiki came
> > to a fairly clear consensus that they wished to opt-out of WMF
> > ads. Wouldn't this basically kill the entire ads cash-cow right
> > there?
> >
> > Now, continuing this scenario, I can imagine the Board would
> > probably reject an opt-out from the largest project. This begs
> > the question: does the Foundation see all projects in an
> > equal light?
> >
> > -Chad
>
>
> That's an excellent question !
>
> I am tempted to return it back first.
>
> If all the languages were voting independently from one another, for
> opt-in or opt-out... how would you feel if en.wiki would vote for "no
> ads", whilst ja.wiki vote for "yes" ?
> Would you rather consider the global project, or would you be willing to
> accept diversity ? Should it be a global decision, or a local one ?
>
> I guess that a global decision would make the issue a "core principle"
> whilst a local decision would make the advertisement issue a "mild
> principle".
>
> ant
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
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I am thinking of having the link to poll included in one of those announcements you see on En.wp, as well as the Village pump, AN, and the community portal.



----- Original Message ----
From: Brian <Brian.Mingus@colorado.edu>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 7:08:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ads and monobook

Who do you propose that we poll? I have suggested that we poll the visitors
to Special:Search, as they are the folks who will actually be looking at the
advertisements. That poll has definitely not occured. I think it's clear
what will happen if you seek out active contributors to Wikipedia. Those
with the loudest voices will drown out those who were unaware of the "poll,"
as demonstrated here:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Polls#Numbers_of_users_for_and_against_ads_on_the_English_Wikipedia
.

On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 7:58 PM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Actually has anyone started straw polls yet?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>
> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 10:53:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ads and monobook
>
> Chad wrote:
> > Let's assume projects can opt-out, and this must be approved
> > by the Board (as they are ultimately responsible for fiscal
> > matters). For the sake of arguments, let's pretend enwiki came
> > to a fairly clear consensus that they wished to opt-out of WMF
> > ads. Wouldn't this basically kill the entire ads cash-cow right
> > there?
> >
> > Now, continuing this scenario, I can imagine the Board would
> > probably reject an opt-out from the largest project. This begs
> > the question: does the Foundation see all projects in an
> > equal light?
> >
> > -Chad
>
>
> That's an excellent question !
>
> I am tempted to return it back first.
>
> If all the languages were voting independently from one another, for
> opt-in or opt-out... how would you feel if en.wiki would vote for "no
> ads", whilst ja.wiki vote for "yes" ?
> Would you rather consider the global project, or would you be willing to
> accept diversity ? Should it be a global decision, or a local one ?
>
> I guess that a global decision would make the issue a "core principle"
> whilst a local decision would make the advertisement issue a "mild
> principle".
>
> ant
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
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Dear sir, no I am not looking for last minute shopping deals, but I
appreciate your concern!

On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Looking for last minute shopping deals?
> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
>
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I apologize for that message. Yahoo is being buggy for me.



----- Original Message ----
From: Brian <Brian.Mingus@colorado.edu>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 9:51:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ads and monobook

Dear sir, no I am not looking for last minute shopping deals, but I
appreciate your concern!

On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Looking for last minute shopping deals?
> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
>
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