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Ted (Hsiang-Tai) Chien wrote:

"From my understanding, the Egypt government is serious on the safety of
foreign people because the Egypt economy is based on tourism. If any foreign
people were been threatened or feel unsafe in their country, it would affect
their economy a lot. Maybe what I know is wrong, but that's what I learnt
from the Taiwan singer issue in Egypt this May."

Is this what you're referring to?

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/news/archives/taiwan/2007228/103436.htm


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Hi,

> From: Brian McNeil
>
> Ted (Hsiang-Tai) Chien wrote:
>
> "From my understanding, the Egypt government is serious on the safety of
> foreign people because the Egypt economy is based on tourism. If any
foreign
> people were been threatened or feel unsafe in their country, it would
affect
> their economy a lot. Maybe what I know is wrong, but that's what I learnt
> from the Taiwan singer issue in Egypt this May."
>
> Is this what you're referring to?
>
> http://www.chinapost.com.tw/news/archives/taiwan/2007228/103436.htm

Yes, that's the one (it seems I have bad memories on dates :P).

And on March 2 the MTV director confessed it's a fake gunpoint report due to
some misunderstanding and the singer Stephaine helped to promote Egypt to
Taiwan people after the Egypt travel agency made an announcement on the
Internet to request for a correction on the media.

If you wish to read the announcement, you could download the PDF from here:

http://www.solarempiretravel.com/sunyanzi_story.pdf (it's in Chinese)

Ted (Hsiang-Tai)


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Brian,

ROTFL You should read the articles until the end :)

"Sun experienced a similar episode in Taiwan seven years ago when a man
charged onto the stage during her album signing event, firing a shot with a
toy gun. Police later said the man had intended to kidnap her for ransom."

Do we also retroactively cancel last wikimania to protect people's safety?

Berto 'd Sera
Skype: berto.d.sera
Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri)
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html


-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Brian McNeil
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:22 AM
To: 'Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will
happeninAlexandria, Egypt

Ted (Hsiang-Tai) Chien wrote:

"From my understanding, the Egypt government is serious on the safety of
foreign people because the Egypt economy is based on tourism. If any foreign
people were been threatened or feel unsafe in their country, it would affect
their economy a lot. Maybe what I know is wrong, but that's what I learnt
from the Taiwan singer issue in Egypt this May."

Is this what you're referring to?

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/news/archives/taiwan/2007228/103436.htm


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This year we were stopped twice in catholic churches, because my wife did
not wear the catholic Burqa on her head. The veil, that is. Both of us are
orthodox, we don't feel that a catholic church has anything to do with
religion, we were just quietly watching to pictures and the architecture. We
were also MUCH quieter than most catholics.

Are we supposed to say that catholic countries are repressive and/or hate
women? No, they simply have areas (churches) in which you are supposed to
behave according to a code you don't understand and that you may find stupid
or funny. It happens with ALL cultures. Try and enter the Vatican in a
miniskirt, high heels and nylon stockings... it doesn't take to be LGBT to
have trouble because of your sexuality. Trouble is very democratically
offered to all and anyone.

Besides, we read lots of reports of people "looking like arabs" being
harassed by the cops in euro and US airports... why should they feel safe
(say) in NYC? I'd never fly to such places, if I had the slightest suspect
that someone may need a "monster" next week and my face fits in the picture
"in principle". What about us smokers in ridicolous countries that don't
allow rooms for smokers? Why should I pay money to be forced to hide my
cigarettes?

The whole discussion is simply ridicolous. No matter what place you choose,
some of us will be somehow harassed by the authorities. If I don't want to
be in that place, I don't go there, and that's it. But I don't request the
whole WMF not to go there, because HOLY ME wants to be happy.

And yes, if I do go anyway I DO HIDE. I'm not going to be another person
just becuse I smoke on the terrace. I'm surely going to miss all meetings
that happen in non-smokers rooms, no matter the city you choose, but that's
MY problem, not yours.

Berto 'd Sera
Skype: berto.d.sera
Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri)
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html


-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Dalton
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 1:00 AM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen
inAlexandria, Egypt

> No, that's not the problem.
> I'm reading "Don't take a double", and that's... how to say? Ridicolous?
> This is not a matter of wearing a t-shirt with "I'm gay" written on,
> this is a matter of people who are not permitted to sleep with their
> partner cause "could be offensive" and could give problem.
> Iperbole: when will be going to a place where women "socially" wear
> burqa, are we going to ask all the women attending to "wear the burqa
> to not seem offensive"? I don' think so.
>
> Please: read what you write.
> I'm not against Alexandria, but the more I read this thread, the more
> I'm ashamed of what I read.

I never said they would not be permitted to sleep with their partner,
I said it might be wise to avoid being to obvious about it. Sometimes
we do thing we would rather not do, just for the sake of a quiet life.
If people want to make a stand, then that's their decision, but if
people want to go to Wikimania to talk about Wikimedia projects,
rather than to preach to the natives, they may want to consider being
discrete.

As for the burqa - only the most oppressive regimes (if any) require
non-Muslims to wear the burqa, and I don't believe many Muslims would
be offended by non-Muslim women showing their faces. It is, however,
often recommended that women (and, men, for that matter), dress a
little more modestly that perhaps they would usually do when in
devoutly Muslim countries - for example, it would be inappropriate to
wander around in just a bikini and sarong.

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Gatto Nero wrote:

> 2007/10/12, Sue Reed <sreed1234@yahoo.com>:

>> Either way, is there any point discussing it any further?
>
>Personally - and I underline "personally" - the problem is not the
>choose of Alexandria as the venue of Wikimania.
>The problem is what I read here in response of GLBT community's
>complaining. Some phrases are just a bit homophobic. Things like:
>* Don't be too gay and you'll be safe
>* Don't be gay and you'll be safe

The actual way I've interpreted most comments (and I emphasise most, not
all) of this nature has been "don't overtly display your sexuality". This
applied to gay, bi, *and* heterosexuals.

>* Don't take a double room

I don't know if it is as bad as that. Is it a case of the hotel staff will
look at you funny, or would it be worse than that?

>* Ask a doctor to certificate you're ill

I have to agree this is ridiculous. A person's sexuality is not an illness.

>* Don't flaunt your homosexuality

This goes with what I said above; anywhere in the Middle East you don't
openly flaunt any flavour of sexuality.

>* How many who you are? (implied: "You're too few to care about")
>are really gross, and if WMF really thinks things like this, we have a
>huge problem.
>Very huge.

I don't care how many LGBT Wikimedians there are. Pigeonholing ourselves
into special interest groups with an axe to grind is counter-productive.
We're all Wikimedians.

So the 2008 Wikimania caught some flak, and the jury is in hiding from an
angry mob of homosexuals with torches and pitchforks. :-P Move on, factor
the concerns into the 2009 process. Do we have a list of candidates for that
yet? It would be far more productive to move on to critiquing the 2009
candidates than bemoaning an issue with the 2008 choice.


Brian.


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2007/10/12, Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org>:
> Gatto Nero wrote:

> The actual way I've interpreted most comments (and I emphasise most, not
> all) of this nature has been "don't overtly display your sexuality". This
> applied to gay, bi, *and* heterosexuals.

Oh, come on: don't try to equiparate "being overtly heterosexual" with
"being overtly homosexual". It's totally different, from a cultural
point of view.
Being heterosexual has been the normality for a loooong time, and it's
very hard to be "overtly heterosexuals". It's not the same, and we
should understand this.
*Being overtly heterosexuals: fucking in the street
*Being overtly homosexuals: speaking with a squeaky voice, holding
another man's hand, sharing a double room...

They're not parallels.
It's minimizing.

> >* Don't take a double room
>
> I don't know if it is as bad as that. Is it a case of the hotel staff will
> look at you funny, or would it be worse than that?

No idea, but the idea of not being _allowed_ to ask for a double, if I
want to, it's absurd.
I can decide not to take a double, but I don't have to be obliged to.

> >* Don't flaunt your homosexuality
>
> This goes with what I said above; anywhere in the Middle East you don't
> openly flaunt any flavour of sexuality.

Read my answer above.

> I don't care how many LGBT Wikimedians there are. Pigeonholing ourselves
> into special interest groups with an axe to grind is counter-productive.
> We're all Wikimedians.

Exactly, and we have to take care of all.

> So the 2008 Wikimania caught some flak, and the jury is in hiding from an
> angry mob of homosexuals with torches and pitchforks. :-P Move on, factor
> the concerns into the 2009 process. Do we have a list of candidates for that
> yet? It would be far more productive to move on to critiquing the 2009
> candidates than bemoaning an issue with the 2008 choice.

On 2007, one of the question made to all the participants was "Are
there problems with the GLBT community, in your country?".
So they knew it.
The problem is the jury understimated the problem, _this year_. I hope
for the next year, but we're worsening.

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Hoi,
The way I understand it, you should not openly kiss in public. <period>
never mind the sexual orientation. What is accepted of heterosexuals in the
Western World is not necessarily accepted elsewhere.

At best this issue is one issue. It is not a deciding issue, it is an issue
that can and should be weighed with others.

Thanks,
GerardM

On 10/12/07, Gatto Nero <gattonero@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 2007/10/12, Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org>:
> > Gatto Nero wrote:
>
> > The actual way I've interpreted most comments (and I emphasise most, not
> > all) of this nature has been "don't overtly display your sexuality".
> This
> > applied to gay, bi, *and* heterosexuals.
>
> Oh, come on: don't try to equiparate "being overtly heterosexual" with
> "being overtly homosexual". It's totally different, from a cultural
> point of view.
> Being heterosexual has been the normality for a loooong time, and it's
> very hard to be "overtly heterosexuals". It's not the same, and we
> should understand this.
> *Being overtly heterosexuals: fucking in the street
> *Being overtly homosexuals: speaking with a squeaky voice, holding
> another man's hand, sharing a double room...
>
> They're not parallels.
> It's minimizing.
>
> > >* Don't take a double room
> >
> > I don't know if it is as bad as that. Is it a case of the hotel staff
> will
> > look at you funny, or would it be worse than that?
>
> No idea, but the idea of not being _allowed_ to ask for a double, if I
> want to, it's absurd.
> I can decide not to take a double, but I don't have to be obliged to.
>
> > >* Don't flaunt your homosexuality
> >
> > This goes with what I said above; anywhere in the Middle East you don't
> > openly flaunt any flavour of sexuality.
>
> Read my answer above.
>
> > I don't care how many LGBT Wikimedians there are. Pigeonholing ourselves
> > into special interest groups with an axe to grind is counter-productive.
> > We're all Wikimedians.
>
> Exactly, and we have to take care of all.
>
> > So the 2008 Wikimania caught some flak, and the jury is in hiding from
> an
> > angry mob of homosexuals with torches and pitchforks. :-P Move on,
> factor
> > the concerns into the 2009 process. Do we have a list of candidates for
> that
> > yet? It would be far more productive to move on to critiquing the 2009
> > candidates than bemoaning an issue with the 2008 choice.
>
> On 2007, one of the question made to all the participants was "Are
> there problems with the GLBT community, in your country?".
> So they knew it.
> The problem is the jury understimated the problem, _this year_. I hope
> for the next year, but we're worsening.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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2007/10/12, GerardM <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>:
> Hoi,
> The way I understand it, you should not openly kiss in public. <period>
> never mind the sexual orientation.

I think it may be found discriminatory, but I'm starting to think that
an heterosexual cannot understand the social implications of being
homosexual.
It's something quite noone can understand without living it on his own skin.
Please, believe me when I say the problem is not only "kissing in public".
It means acting in some way, too. It means looking in some way,
dressing in some way.
It means a lot of things that I cannot even describe, and you cannot
choose not to be or do.

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On 12/10/2007, Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org> wrote:
> >* Ask a doctor to certificate you're ill
>
> I have to agree this is ridiculous. A person's sexuality is not an illness.

This was in reference to transsexuals. The NHS views it as an illness.
Fell free to try and persuade them otherwise as it would allow money
to be free up for use in other areas. UK transsexuals might not be too
unhappy mind.

--
geni

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The solution could be:

1.go in Alexandria for the Wikimedia 2008
2.kiss all in public heterosexual with heterosexual, homosexual with homosexual
3.have the VISA keeped
4.open an international accident
5.don't return to home otherwise mama could ask some explications for
your coming out

Gooooooooooood :)

Ilario

On 10/12/07, Gatto Nero <gattonero@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2007/10/12, GerardM <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>:
> > Hoi,
> > The way I understand it, you should not openly kiss in public. <period>
> > never mind the sexual orientation.
>
> I think it may be found discriminatory, but I'm starting to think that
> an heterosexual cannot understand the social implications of being
> homosexual.
> It's something quite noone can understand without living it on his own skin.
> Please, believe me when I say the problem is not only "kissing in public".
> It means acting in some way, too. It means looking in some way,
> dressing in some way.
> It means a lot of things that I cannot even describe, and you cannot
> choose not to be or do.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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GerardM wrote:

> Hoi,
>Yes, you can. Like everyone else you have to remember; when in Rome do as
>the Romans do !

In this case I think you take your advice from the Bangles.

"Walk like an Egyptian"


Brian.


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