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Well there is one, really not to ligitimate gay Egyptian website:
<http://www.gayegypt.com>

But go to their press page: <http://www.gayegypt.com/quotations.html>
and look at the bottom quote: "Meet us in Germany - Meet us in Spain -
Meet us in America - Meet us in London - You have signed your own death
sentence"
/Al Qaeda/

Why this on a gay site that is supposed to be in Egypt. I don't know,
but that doesn't make me feel safe.

Jason Safoutin
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Gatto Nero a écrit :
...
> *Being overtly homosexuals: speaking with a squeaky voice, holding
> another man's hand, sharing a double room...
...
FYI, in some coutries (India, Pakistan), a man holding another man's
hand in public does not mean they are homosexual. I don't know about
Egypt through.

Regards,

Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclopédie libre
http://fr.wikisource.org/ | Bibliothèque libre
http://wikilivres.info | Documents libres

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On 12/10/2007, Jason Safoutin <jason.safoutin@wikinewsie.org> wrote:
> Well there is one, really not to ligitimate gay Egyptian website:
> <http://www.gayegypt.com>
>
> But go to their press page: <http://www.gayegypt.com/quotations.html>
> and look at the bottom quote: "Meet us in Germany - Meet us in Spain -
> Meet us in America - Meet us in London - You have signed your own death
> sentence"
> /Al Qaeda/
>
> Why this on a gay site that is supposed to be in Egypt. I don't know,
> but that doesn't make me feel safe.
>
> Jason Safoutin


There are men with guns who will take a considerable interest in
making sure that Egyptian Islamic Jihad are not a threat to you or
anyone else visiting Egypt.

--
geni

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On 10/9/07, David Strauss <david@fourkitchens.com> wrote:

> I'm offended that the desire to have Wikimania hop around the globe
> (rotation) trumps the egregious history Egypt has with LGBT and other
> civil rights (local laws).

David, thanks for opening this discussion; it's an important and necessary one.

I was not on the Wikimania jury, but I endorse its decision.

To me, WMF is first and foremost about spreading knowledge, across
boundaries of language & culture. This means we should not isolate
countries that violate human rights through reactionary policies. We
need to engage them on a higher level, and confront them with the open
& diverse culture of sharing that we are building.

I understand that this means that many LGBT people may not wish to
attend Wikimania 2008 for reasons of personal safety or principles. I
hope some of them will change their mind, as we need courageous voices
to influence those who can be influenced.

I have always been supportive of Wikimedia taking an official stance
against censorship in particular. Knowledge cannot flow across
boundaries where there are gatekeepers who wish to control it. It is
my belief that education, including education about different
lifestyles, is absolutely critical for social progress anywhere,
including Egypt. This is what Wikimedia, as an international charity,
is all about.

If we truly are the "Red Cross of Knowledge", as Jimmy once called it,
then we need to be everywhere, and primarily challenge policies when
they stop us from doing what we do: giving people free access to
education. This, not simply globe-hopping, is my motivation to support
this location, the first Wikimania in Africa.

--
Toward Peace, Love & Progress:
Erik

DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent an official position of
the Wikimedia Foundation or its Board of Trustees.

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foundation-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
> David, thanks for opening this discussion; it's an important and necessary one.
>
> I was not on the Wikimania jury, but I endorse its decision.
>
> To me, WMF is first and foremost about spreading knowledge, across
> boundaries of language & culture. This means we should not isolate
> countries that violate human rights through reactionary policies. We
> need to engage them on a higher level, and confront them with the open
> & diverse culture of sharing that we are building.
>
They are not willing to build a diverse culture which included
homosexuals. So far I see nothing open and diverse about their
government or the way they treat homosexuals and women. If they wanted
us there, then they would welcome us and they do not welcome
homosexuals. Its not about policy. Its about whether or not a group is
being singled out.
> I understand that this means that many LGBT people may not wish to
> attend Wikimania 2008 for reasons of personal safety or principles. I
> hope some of them will change their mind, as we need courageous voices
> to influence those who can be influenced.
>
Wikimania is not a conference to use for political objectives. We are
not politicians or lawmakers. If you want to influence people who wish
NOT to be influenced, do it on your own time. Its not "personal safety"
of just homosexuals, but EVERYONE. This is a conference, not an election.
> I have always been supportive of Wikimedia taking an official stance
> against censorship in particular. Knowledge cannot flow across
> boundaries where there are gatekeepers who wish to control it. It is
> my belief that education, including education about different
> lifestyles, is absolutely critical for social progress anywhere,
> including Egypt. This is what Wikimedia, as an international charity,
> is all about.
>
Charity is for those who want it and who welcome it. We are not one to
make their censorship decisions. Again, take the political motive
somewhere else. We can educate and teach others about their culture
without putting individuals in harms way. And we don't donate
anything...they donate to us.
> If we truly are the "Red Cross of Knowledge", as Jimmy once called it,
> then we need to be everywhere, and primarily challenge policies when
> they stop us from doing what we do: giving people free access to
> education. This, not simply globe-hopping, is my motivation to support
> this location, the first Wikimania in Africa.
>
Again. We cannot force our knowledge on a culture that is protective of
their own. They don't have free speech so your continuing claims of
policies has nothing to do with us. They change their policies and
beliefs and culture. Not us. If the "gatekeepers" want to control
it,then that's their right, its their country and we have no right to
force anything upon them. And I as well as from what I read, other
homosexuals are not willing to risk their life to do that. If you want
to talk about non-censorship and what not, then talk about how this
decision effects a crowd of Wikimedia's most diverse.

Jason Safoutin

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Jason Safoutin wrote:
> foundation-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
>
>> David, thanks for opening this discussion; it's an important and necessary one.
>>
>> I was not on the Wikimania jury, but I endorse its decision.
>>
>> To me, WMF is first and foremost about spreading knowledge, across
>> boundaries of language & culture. This means we should not isolate
>> countries that violate human rights through reactionary policies. We
>> need to engage them on a higher level, and confront them with the open
>> & diverse culture of sharing that we are building.
>>
>>
> They are not willing to build a diverse culture which included
> homosexuals. So far I see nothing open and diverse about their
> government or the way they treat homosexuals and women. If they wanted
> us there, then they would welcome us and they do not welcome
> homosexuals. Its not about policy. Its about whether or not a group is
> being singled out.
>

The "open and diverse culture" being discussed is *ours*, not that of a
particular government. We'd like to include as many people and
viewpoints as possible, and all locations have tradeoffs when it comes
to that. Arabs are, worldwide, a large ethnic/cultural/linguistic group,
but so far pretty underrepresented at our own international gatherings
--- boycotting all Arab countries as conference locations would not be a
very good way of solving that particular diversity problem! Reasonable
people disagree over how exactly to weigh all the factors that go into
choosing a location, including all the pros/cons of the sort of
participant diversity that a particular location would or wouldn't
promote. Having it in Alexandria promotes some sorts of diversity and
hurts other sorts. I've personally been pushing for cost-accessibility
of locations to enable wider grassroots participation, but that's
obviously not the only important factor either.

-Mark


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>
> foundation-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
>> Jason Safoutin ha scritto:
>>
>>> They are not willing to build a diverse culture which included
>>> homosexuals.
>>>
>> Tell it to egyptrian LGBT community. The chances that things change, in Egypt or elsewere, are higher if someone goes there. Nothing will change if you keep on complaining from your safe american home.
>>
if you expect a bunch of Wikimedians to change the government, then you
are putting them at risk of being arrested and or killed in this
co7untry. Especially the homosexuals. It is not our job to change the
world and we are not activists of a government. If they don't want gay
people there then plain and simple: We are not welcome there.
>>> Wikimania is not a conference to use for political objectives. We are
>>> not politicians or lawmakers. If you want to influence people who wish
>>> NOT to be influenced, do it on your own time.
>>>
>> Sorry to contraddict you but Wikimania *IS* political. All the things we are doing here are political. Stop looking at Wikimania as if it is just a cool party!
>>
>>
No its not. It has nothing to do with politics. And if it is then
Wikimania needs to be completely revamped. We are not crusaders or
"freedom fighters". If you want to be political, then run for your
government. this is a conference not an election.
>>> Its not "personal safety"
>>> of just homosexuals, but EVERYONE.
>>>
>> Personal safety of EVERYONE is at risk in Alexandria or in NYC, if you are a mindless traveller.
>> As an example, an eterosexual staring too intensively at the ass of someone else girlfriend can get into trouble everywhere in the world.
>>
>> Roberto (Snowdog)
>>
>>
Last I heard, the last terror attack in the US was 2001. Now how many
have there been in Egypt or in close proximity to it? Read the links in
all the mails that have been going around here.

Jason Safoutin
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 03:34:06 -0700
>> From: Delirium <delirium@hackish.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria,
>> Egypt
>> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
>> <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> Message-ID: <47109F1E.2070107@hackish.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Jason Safoutin wrote:
>>
>>> foundation-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> David, thanks for opening this discussion; it's an important and necessary one.
>>>>
>>>> I was not on the Wikimania jury, but I endorse its decision.
>>>>
>>>> To me, WMF is first and foremost about spreading knowledge, across
>>>> boundaries of language & culture. This means we should not isolate
>>>> countries that violate human rights through reactionary policies. We
>>>> need to engage them on a higher level, and confront them with the open
>>>> & diverse culture of sharing that we are building.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> They are not willing to build a diverse culture which included
>>> homosexuals. So far I see nothing open and diverse about their
>>> government or the way they treat homosexuals and women. If they wanted
>>> us there, then they would welcome us and they do not welcome
>>> homosexuals. Its not about policy. Its about whether or not a group is
>>> being singled out.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The "open and diverse culture" being discussed is *ours*, not that of a
>> particular government. We'd like to include as many people and
>> viewpoints as possible, and all locations have tradeoffs when it comes
>> to that. Arabs are, worldwide, a large ethnic/cultural/linguistic group,
>> but so far pretty underrepresented at our own international gatherings
>> --- boycotting all Arab countries as conference locations would not be a
>> very good way of solving that particular diversity problem! Reasonable
>> people disagree over how exactly to weigh all the factors that go into
>> choosing a location, including all the pros/cons of the sort of
>> participant diversity that a particular location would or wouldn't
>> promote. Having it in Alexandria promotes some sorts of diversity and
>> hurts other sorts. I've personally been pushing for cost-accessibility
>> of locations to enable wider grassroots participation, but that's
>> obviously not the only important factor either.
>>
>> -Mark
>>
>>
I never said anything about boycotting anything let alone any Arab
country. The important factor needs to be who the Wikimedians are and
then support all of them. Not a select group. Last I checked, we are as
equal as anyone on any WMF project. And that needs to be taken into
consideration...not ignored. Also...Homosexuals might even be a bigger
diverse group than Arabic people. Cannot single any one group out. Period.

Grassroots? Again...take the political agenda somewhere else. Wikimania
is not a political party or an election. If it is...then there is a
massive problem.

Jason Safoutin

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> Last I heard, the last terror attack in the US was 2001. Now how many
> have there been in Egypt or in close proximity to it? Read the links in
> all the mails that have been going around here.
>
> Jason Safoutin

When you travel to a foreign country, terrorism is not the only factor of risk. There's also plain criminality. And you can find it in abundace in every big city, be it Alexandria or NYC.

Anyway, every year millions of people go to Egypt and come back home safely. Unfortunately, some people die. It can be because of a kamikaze attack in Sharm el Sheik, or it can be because of a drunk teenager driving to fast in your direction. You know, life sucks!

Still all this ranting about putting at risk the life of wikimedians is ridicolous. You talk like all wikimedians in Alexandria will be round up by egyptian police and deported in the egyptian equivalent of Guantanamo.

Now I quit this silly conversation and leave you alone with your fears. Take care! The world is a dangerous place to live.

Roberto (Snowdog)





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