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Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt
The Jury for Wikimania 2008 bids have met and are pleased to announce
that Wikimania 2008 will be held in Alexandria, Egypt.

The Bids were assessed by a Jury[0] which included community members
representing various geographical areas, and organisers of the previous
conferences. The Jury used 12 criteria[1] to judge the bids, which were
drawn up based on the Jury's previous experiences organising the
conference and with input from a wide range of community concerns.

Alexandria was found to be particularly strong in the areas of
reflecting the Wikimedia Foundation's roots in geo-diversity and
multi-lingualism, of the very exciting nature of the proposed venue
and its local facilities, and of the particularly advanced nature of
the financial planning.

All three Bids were very strong in differing ways, each with stronger
and weaker points. We would like to draw particular attention to the
efforts of the team behind the Atlanta bid, which came in second place
and was particularly commendable in the areas of providing in-facility
accommodation and social space, and for doing great outreach to local
Wikimedians. Their efforts could serve as an example to any team
hoping to get the local community involved. The Cape Town bid was
marked strongly by the Jury for cultural diversity, a particularly
benign local environment, and efforts to secure local recognition and
facilities. We'd especially like to congratulate Cape Town on
providing our very first strong bid from the Southern Hemisphere.

A table of the results is given below. Each member of the jury had up
to 60 points to allocate to the bids in each of the 12 categories,
which they did after a period of discussion and careful deliberation.

Category Alexandria Atlanta Cape Town

Accommodation 251 298 71
Funding 264 224 152
Location 294 154 182
Internet Access 204 263 133
Local Laws 155 253 222
Press 232 235 153
Organizing Team 244 206 163
Rotation 305 55 260
Social Areas 222 258 140
Cost 289 206 125
Venue 323 158 139
Visas 243 109 263

Total 3026 2419 2003

Note that a 13th category, on personal preference, was polled but is
not included as it had no significant effect on the result.

The Jury would like to thank all of those involved in bids, including
those whose bids did not go forward to the final selection, for their
efforts which combined to produce a competitive field.

We strongly encourage all those who bid this year, and those of you
wondering whether your city could have done the same, to consider
bidding for Wikimania 2009, for which the decision will begin very
shortly. See the Wikimania 2009 page on meta[2] for further updates
within the next few days.

We are especially looking forward to the Wikimedia Foundation
collaborating with one of the most famous repositories of knowledge in
the world, and emphasising the newly developing Wikimedia projects in
Africa and the Middle East. We would like to encourage the entire
community to support the Alexandria team over the coming year in
producing an outstanding conference, and look forward to meeting as
many of you as possible there.

On behalf of the Wikimania 2008 bid Jury.

[0] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2008/Jury
Sue Gardner and Jan-Bart DeVreede abstained from voting.
[1] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania 2008/Judging criteria
[2] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2009

--

James D. Forrister
Cary Bass

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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
Congratulations to Alexandria. And thanks to all the bidding teams
participating!

Waerth


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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
On 10/9/07, Cary Bass <cbass@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> The Jury for Wikimania 2008 bids have met and are pleased to announce
> that Wikimania 2008 will be held in Alexandria, Egypt.

My congratulations to the Alexandria team, and my congratulations also
to the two other teams who have presented strong and convincing bids
as well.

I especially appreciate that with the 4th Wikimania, we have covered 4
different continents. Now, I'm waiting for South America and Australia
for 2009/2010 (and my personal thanks would go to the team that
organises Wikimania Antarctica 2011).

[.Yes, I know, geographical diversity is not *everything*, but if we
have strong bids from a continent that has not yet been represented, I
will always favour them]

Regards,
Michael

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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
Cary Bass wrote:
> The Jury for Wikimania 2008 bids have met and are pleased to announce
> James D. Forrister
gah! Forrester Forrester Forrester

--

Cary Bass
Volunteer Coordinator


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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
2007/10/9, Cary Bass <cbass@wikimedia.org>:
>
> The Jury for Wikimania 2008 bids have met and are pleased to announce
> that Wikimania 2008 will be held in Alexandria, Egypt.
>

Congratulations... finally Africa! I'm glad!

Nick
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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
On 10/9/07, Cary Bass <cbass@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> The Jury for Wikimania 2008 bids have met and are pleased to announce
> that Wikimania 2008 will be held in Alexandria, Egypt.

Congratulations to the winners, & good luck with the preparation of
the conference. Thanks to all the bidders, and also to the jury!

I'm very happy with the result. Wikipedia is, in many ways, the
Library of Alexandria of our time.
--
Toward Peace, Love & Progress:
Erik

DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent an official position of
the Wikimedia Foundation or its Board of Trustees.

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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
2007/10/9, Erik Moeller <erik@wikimedia.org>:
>
> I'm very happy with the result. Wikipedia is, in many ways, the
> Library of Alexandria of our time.
>

Nick hopes that Wikipedia will not burn
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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
On 10/9/07, Cary Bass <cbass@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Category Alexandria Atlanta Cape Town
>
> Accommodation 251 298 71
> Funding 264 224 152
> Location 294 154 182
> Internet Access 204 263 133
> Local Laws 155 253 222
> Press 232 235 153
> Organizing Team 244 206 163
> Rotation 305 55 260
> Social Areas 222 258 140
> Cost 289 206 125
> Venue 323 158 139
> Visas 243 109 263
>
Is there a description somewhere of what these terms mean? Most are
obvious, but some aren't (rotation?).

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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
Congratulation!!! All three candidates are great (hope to see Atlanta
and Cape Town join 2009 bidding!), and I believed that 2008 would be
even more fascinating and successful.

Alexandria team, the challenge is just now begin but you can make it,
we're all here to back you up, please do feel free to contact people
who might be helpful. Go wikimania! Go Alexandria!

Can't wait to next year!

regards,

TzuChiang

Tzu-Chiang Liou
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tcliou
FaceBook: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=543610417
Email: tcliou@ {gmail.com|iis.sinica.edu.tw} || MSN: tcliou@msn.com || Skype: tcliou

Cary Bass wrote:
> The Jury for Wikimania 2008 bids have met and are pleased to announce
> that Wikimania 2008 will be held in Alexandria, Egypt.
>
> The Bids were assessed by a Jury[0] which included community members
> representing various geographical areas, and organisers of the previous
> conferences. The Jury used 12 criteria[1] to judge the bids, which were
> drawn up based on the Jury's previous experiences organising the
> conference and with input from a wide range of community concerns.
>
> Alexandria was found to be particularly strong in the areas of
> reflecting the Wikimedia Foundation's roots in geo-diversity and
> multi-lingualism, of the very exciting nature of the proposed venue
> and its local facilities, and of the particularly advanced nature of
> the financial planning.
>
> All three Bids were very strong in differing ways, each with stronger
> and weaker points. We would like to draw particular attention to the
> efforts of the team behind the Atlanta bid, which came in second place
> and was particularly commendable in the areas of providing in-facility
> accommodation and social space, and for doing great outreach to local
> Wikimedians. Their efforts could serve as an example to any team
> hoping to get the local community involved. The Cape Town bid was
> marked strongly by the Jury for cultural diversity, a particularly
> benign local environment, and efforts to secure local recognition and
> facilities. We'd especially like to congratulate Cape Town on
> providing our very first strong bid from the Southern Hemisphere.
>
> A table of the results is given below. Each member of the jury had up
> to 60 points to allocate to the bids in each of the 12 categories,
> which they did after a period of discussion and careful deliberation.
>
> Category Alexandria Atlanta Cape Town
>
> Accommodation 251 298 71
> Funding 264 224 152
> Location 294 154 182
> Internet Access 204 263 133
> Local Laws 155 253 222
> Press 232 235 153
> Organizing Team 244 206 163
> Rotation 305 55 260
> Social Areas 222 258 140
> Cost 289 206 125
> Venue 323 158 139
> Visas 243 109 263
>
> Total 3026 2419 2003
>
> Note that a 13th category, on personal preference, was polled but is
> not included as it had no significant effect on the result.
>
> The Jury would like to thank all of those involved in bids, including
> those whose bids did not go forward to the final selection, for their
> efforts which combined to produce a competitive field.
>
> We strongly encourage all those who bid this year, and those of you
> wondering whether your city could have done the same, to consider
> bidding for Wikimania 2009, for which the decision will begin very
> shortly. See the Wikimania 2009 page on meta[2] for further updates
> within the next few days.
>
> We are especially looking forward to the Wikimedia Foundation
> collaborating with one of the most famous repositories of knowledge in
> the world, and emphasising the newly developing Wikimedia projects in
> Africa and the Middle East. We would like to encourage the entire
> community to support the Alexandria team over the coming year in
> producing an outstanding conference, and look forward to meeting as
> many of you as possible there.
>
> On behalf of the Wikimania 2008 bid Jury.
>
> [0] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2008/Jury
> Sue Gardner and Jan-Bart DeVreede abstained from voting.
> [1] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania 2008/Judging criteria
> [2] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2009
>

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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
On 09/10/2007, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
>
> On 10/9/07, Cary Bass <cbass@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> > Category Alexandria Atlanta Cape Town
> >
> > Accommodation 251 298 71
> > Funding 264 224 152
> > Location 294 154 182
> > Internet Access 204 263 133
> > Local Laws 155 253 222
> > Press 232 235 153
> > Organizing Team 244 206 163
> > Rotation 305 55 260
> > Social Areas 222 258 140
> > Cost 289 206 125
> > Venue 323 158 139
> > Visas 243 109 263
> >
> Is there a description somewhere of what these terms mean? Most are
> obvious, but some aren't (rotation?).
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

Probably means in different locations - like rotating turns.

--
Alex (Majorly)
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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
2007/10/10, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
>
> On 10/9/07, Cary Bass <cbass@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> > Category Alexandria Atlanta Cape Town
> >
> > Accommodation 251 298 71
> > Funding 264 224 152
> > Location 294 154 182
> > Internet Access 204 263 133
> > Local Laws 155 253 222
> > Press 232 235 153
> > Organizing Team 244 206 163
> > Rotation 305 55 260
> > Social Areas 222 258 140
> > Cost 289 206 125
> > Venue 323 158 139
> > Visas 243 109 263
> >
> Is there a description somewhere of what these terms mean? Most are
> obvious, but some aren't (rotation?).




http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2008/Judging_criteria



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>
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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
On 10/9/07, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> Is there a description somewhere of what these terms mean? Most are
> obvious, but some aren't (rotation?).

I think rotation has to do with not being in the same place every year.

Judson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cohesion

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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
Cary Bass wrote:
> The Jury for Wikimania 2008 bids have met and are pleased to announce
> that Wikimania 2008 will be held in Alexandria, Egypt.

I'm offended that the desire to have Wikimania hop around the globe
(rotation) trumps the egregious history Egypt has with LGBT and other
civil rights (local laws). While visitors to Egypt are certainly not at
the same risk, I refuse to spend any money in a country that -- as
recently as 2004 -- sentenced someone to 17 years of prison and two
years of hard labor for posting a personal ad on a gay website[1]. A
blogger was imprisoned in 2007 for four years for "insulting Islam and
defaming the President of Egypt."[2] Jimmy Wales even attended the
Amnesty conference denouncing the censorship. No legal or cultural
reforms since give me confidence that the situation has improved.

Wikimedia and its projects have an abundance of people from marginalized
groups and political advocacy organizations participating at every
level. A place that persecutes, censors, and prosecutes such groups
under the banner of snuffing out "Satanism" is not a location that
affirms the pluralism and intellectual freedom of Wikimedia.

People raised these objections early in the bidding process, but I have
yet to see a response that extends beyond the immediate safety of
conference attendees. (And even those responses failed to address the
danger for transgender and transsexual community members.) Even if we
don't risk anything ourselves, we should care about more than our own
safety: where we hold a conference shows what we consider acceptable.

The "points" system that arrived at this decision strikes me as shallow
and inhuman, a failed attempt at giving the process a veneer of
objectivity. With arbitrary categories of equal weight, why should
anyone expect it to yield a good result? Even then, all the public sees
is a bunch of numbers without justifications or accountability. When I
buy a car, I don't create the categories "exterior color," "interior
color," "CD player," and "starts up" with equal weight, yet "social
areas" weighed equally with "local laws" in the bidding process. How
useful are these "social areas" to the parts of our community whose
social activities, even appearance, include aspects that would be
dangerous in public Egyptian life? How many "points" is their freedom worth?

Alexandria was once distinguished as being the site of the Great
Library, but the Egypt of today has more in common with the society that
burned the library than the one that built it. Don't expect to find me
at Wikimania 2008 Alexandria.

Sincerely,
David Strauss

[1] http://www.gaymiddleeast.com/country/egypt
[2] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6724531.stm
Re: [Translators-l] Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
Congratulations to the winner, and well done all bidders!

However, the organization work just begins, but I believe the Alexandria
team will do the best!

Good luck, Alexandria team!

Ted (Hsiang-Tai)

> From: Cary Bass
>
> The Jury for Wikimania 2008 bids have met and are pleased to announce
> that Wikimania 2008 will be held in Alexandria, Egypt.


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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
On behalf of the 2008 Toronto bid team, congratulations on the win!

Nick Moreau
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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
(resend to the foundation list, plus a postscript)

On 10/9/07, David Strauss <david@fourkitchens.com> wrote:

> > Cary Bass wrote:
> > > The Jury for Wikimania 2008 bids have met and are pleased to announce
> > > that Wikimania 2008 will be held in Alexandria, Egypt.
> >
> > I'm offended that the desire to have Wikimania hop around the globe
> > (rotation) trumps the egregious history Egypt has with LGBT and other
> > civil rights (local laws). While visitors to Egypt are certainly not at
> > the same risk, I refuse to spend any money in a country that -- as
> > recently as 2004 -- sentenced someone to 17 years of prison and two
> > years of hard labor for posting a personal ad on a gay website[1]. A
> > blogger was imprisoned in 2007 for four years for "insulting Islam and
> > defaming the President of Egypt."[2] Jimmy Wales even attended the
> > Amnesty conference denouncing the censorship. No legal or cultural
> > reforms since give me confidence that the situation has improved.
> >
> > Wikimedia and its projects have an abundance of people from marginalized
> > groups and political advocacy organizations participating at every
> > level. A place that persecutes, censors, and prosecutes such groups
> > under the banner of snuffing out "Satanism" is not a location that
> > affirms the pluralism and intellectual freedom of Wikimedia.
> >
> > People raised these objections early in the bidding process, but I have
>
> As a jury member, I do not remember any comments from you on this
> subject, David; perhaps I missed them. At any rate, what are you
> trying to accomplish by sending this message after the winner was
> announced, and not before when we were discussing the bids?
>
> Wikimania and Wikimedia are both global in scope, which means that
> while we can condemn censorship and loss of human rights everywhere we
> must also take into account a global range of values. Our projects
> focus specifically on free knowledge, and I expect that will be
> highlighted at the conference.
>
> -- phoebe


p.s. as a postscript to this message which I also sent to wikimania-l, I'd
like to point out that this is not a closed process, and if anyone feels as
strongly about the criteria as David does, a message to the 2009 jury would
be appreciated. We the jurors did our best good-faith effort to incorporate
community concerns and use our own best judgment about this often
contentious process; but we cannot fully represent the community without
community feedback. We got little to no response to our calls for feedback
on the criteria. Such sweeping statements as David makes are certainly best
backed up with a little effort to provide data while decisions are being
made.
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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
phoebe ayers wrote:
> (resend to the foundation list, plus a postscript)
>
> On 10/9/07, David Strauss <david@fourkitchens.com> wrote:
>
>>> Cary Bass wrote:
>>>> The Jury for Wikimania 2008 bids have met and are pleased to announce
>>>> that Wikimania 2008 will be held in Alexandria, Egypt.
>>> I'm offended that the desire to have Wikimania hop around the globe
>>> (rotation) trumps the egregious history Egypt has with LGBT and other
>>> civil rights (local laws). While visitors to Egypt are certainly not at
>>> the same risk, I refuse to spend any money in a country that -- as
>>> recently as 2004 -- sentenced someone to 17 years of prison and two
>>> years of hard labor for posting a personal ad on a gay website[1]. A
>>> blogger was imprisoned in 2007 for four years for "insulting Islam and
>>> defaming the President of Egypt."[2] Jimmy Wales even attended the
>>> Amnesty conference denouncing the censorship. No legal or cultural
>>> reforms since give me confidence that the situation has improved.
>>>
>>> Wikimedia and its projects have an abundance of people from marginalized
>>> groups and political advocacy organizations participating at every
>>> level. A place that persecutes, censors, and prosecutes such groups
>>> under the banner of snuffing out "Satanism" is not a location that
>>> affirms the pluralism and intellectual freedom of Wikimedia.
>>>
>>> People raised these objections early in the bidding process, but I have
>> As a jury member, I do not remember any comments from you on this
>> subject, David; perhaps I missed them. At any rate, what are you
>> trying to accomplish by sending this message after the winner was
>> announced, and not before when we were discussing the bids?
>>
>> Wikimania and Wikimedia are both global in scope, which means that
>> while we can condemn censorship and loss of human rights everywhere we
>> must also take into account a global range of values. Our projects
>> focus specifically on free knowledge, and I expect that will be
>> highlighted at the conference.
>>
>> -- phoebe
>
> p.s. as a postscript to this message which I also sent to wikimania-l, I'd
> like to point out that this is not a closed process, and if anyone feels as
> strongly about the criteria as David does, a message to the 2009 jury would
> be appreciated. We the jurors did our best good-faith effort to incorporate
> community concerns and use our own best judgment about this often
> contentious process; but we cannot fully represent the community without
> community feedback. We got little to no response to our calls for feedback
> on the criteria. Such sweeping statements as David makes are certainly best
> backed up with a little effort to provide data while decisions are being
> made.

The voting system, while flawed in my opinion, has little to do with the
fact that Atlanta was hurt more by being closer to a previous Wikimania
than Alexandira was hurt by Egypt's history of imprisoning gays and
political/religious dissidents.
Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
On 10/9/07, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
>
> On 10/9/07, Cary Bass <cbass@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> > Category Alexandria Atlanta Cape Town
> >
> > Accommodation 251 298 71
> > Funding 264 224 152
> > Location 294 154 182
> > Internet Access 204 263 133
> > Local Laws 155 253 222
> > Press 232 235 153
> > Organizing Team 244 206 163
> > Rotation 305 55 260
> > Social Areas 222 258 140
> > Cost 289 206 125
> > Venue 323 158 139
> > Visas 243 109 263
> >
> Is there a description somewhere of what these terms mean? Most are
> obvious, but some aren't (rotation?).


http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2008/Judging_criteria
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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
David Strauss wrote:
> Cary Bass wrote:
>> The Jury for Wikimania 2008 bids have met and are pleased to announce
>> that Wikimania 2008 will be held in Alexandria, Egypt.
>
> I'm offended that the desire to have Wikimania hop around the globe
> (rotation) trumps the egregious history Egypt has with LGBT and other
> civil rights (local laws). While visitors to Egypt are certainly not at
> the same risk, I refuse to spend any money in a country that -- as
> recently as 2004 -- sentenced someone to 17 years of prison and two
> years of hard labor for posting a personal ad on a gay website[1]. A
> blogger was imprisoned in 2007 for four years for "insulting Islam and
> defaming the President of Egypt."[2] Jimmy Wales even attended the
> Amnesty conference denouncing the censorship. No legal or cultural
> reforms since give me confidence that the situation has improved.
>
> Wikimedia and its projects have an abundance of people from marginalized
> groups and political advocacy organizations participating at every
> level. A place that persecutes, censors, and prosecutes such groups
> under the banner of snuffing out "Satanism" is not a location that
> affirms the pluralism and intellectual freedom of Wikimedia.
>
> People raised these objections early in the bidding process, but I have
> yet to see a response that extends beyond the immediate safety of
> conference attendees. (And even those responses failed to address the
> danger for transgender and transsexual community members.) Even if we
> don't risk anything ourselves, we should care about more than our own
> safety: where we hold a conference shows what we consider acceptable.
>
> The "points" system that arrived at this decision strikes me as shallow
> and inhuman, a failed attempt at giving the process a veneer of
> objectivity. With arbitrary categories of equal weight, why should
> anyone expect it to yield a good result? Even then, all the public sees
> is a bunch of numbers without justifications or accountability. When I
> buy a car, I don't create the categories "exterior color," "interior
> color," "CD player," and "starts up" with equal weight, yet "social
> areas" weighed equally with "local laws" in the bidding process. How
> useful are these "social areas" to the parts of our community whose
> social activities, even appearance, include aspects that would be
> dangerous in public Egyptian life? How many "points" is their freedom worth?
>
> Alexandria was once distinguished as being the site of the Great
> Library, but the Egypt of today has more in common with the society that
> burned the library than the one that built it. Don't expect to find me
> at Wikimania 2008 Alexandria.
>
> Sincerely,
> David Strauss
>
> [1] http://www.gaymiddleeast.com/country/egypt
> [2] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6724531.stm

hello

I will have only three comments.


I am very happy to see Alexandria as the next host city of Wikimania,
the Wikimedia Foundation annual conference. Others already explained why
it is a really great choice, so I will not comment any further on this.


Second, I was part of the jury with others. We looked carefully at many
different criteria, and also offered our "gut feeling", and took into
consideration comments provided on the meta talk and during the irc open
meeting. Nothing was left aside.
Aside from cold "voting", most jury members sent details comments to
explain why they voted in a certain way. They provided figures AND votes.
As Cary very well explained, the three bids were good bids. The three of
them had some important strenghts and the three also had some
weaknesses. We'll work on the weaknesses, and we'll surf on the
strengths. Some people will always see some strengthes as stronger than
the jury did, and the weaknesses are worse than the stronger did. As in
ANY decision, there will be people happy and other unhappy. I still
believe the process was fair, but no decision can make everyone happy.
This has to be recognised. You are unhappy, you have arguments for being
unhappy, you are free to provide this argument and that's okay. I am
just sorry you are unhappy. But there is not a good choice on one hand
and two bad choices. There is a preferred choice, which is probably a
best choice.


The third point is that, however unhappy you are, I would urge you not
to make attacks on people. It is not because you disagree with the jury
that the jury did a bad job. I urge you to believe in our good faith and
to believe that we did the best we could. You just simply disagree with
us. I would not disagree with you that Egypt is not the most agreeable
country in the world with regards to LGBT rights, I would not disagree
with you that Egypt might be sometimes, in certain circonstances not the
safer country as well; however, I do not think that having Wikimania in
Egypt constitute in any way a support of this country political system
(just as it was not either a support of the political system of Germany
in 2005, the United States of America in 2006 and Taipei in 2007). Also,
there are also great people in Egypt, just as everywhere else; and they
do not deserve to be belittle, isolated or generally marginalized (which
is what you propose) simply because they happen not to live in a country
most agreeable to your personal beliefs.


Best

Anthere


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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
I agree, probably the support to great people in "un"great countries is
in a small help which could be a step to change the local condition.

There are persons who are "active" and agree to offer this help, some
others who disagree and observe that nothing is changed and nothing will
change and think that the help is in simple "waiting".

Ilario

Florence Devouard wrote:
>
> in 2005, the United States of America in 2006 and Taipei in 2007). Also,
> there are also great people in Egypt, just as everywhere else; and they
> do not deserve to be belittle, isolated or generally marginalized (which
> is what you propose) simply because they happen not to live in a country
> most agreeable to your personal beliefs.
>
>

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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
Michael Bimmler wrote:

> I especially appreciate that with the 4th Wikimania, we have
> covered 4 different continents. Now, I'm waiting for South
> America and Australia for 2009/2010 (and my personal thanks
> would go to the team that organises Wikimania Antarctica 2011).

Well, I am sparing Bogota for 2010. Congratulations to Alexandria.

-- Carlos Th


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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
Congratulations!

We make news on Wikinews ;)

http://tinyurl.com/2dsv4j

regards

przykuta

P.S. <POV>It will be a symbolic event</POV>

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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
He who is without sin should throw the first stone...

The Wikimedia Foundation is about bringing information to the people. It is
not a political organisation. It is where we push the ideals of providing
good information under a free license, where we stimulate the use of non
proprietary formats and software. Our strength may be in Europe or America
but our mission is not.

When people complain about the cost of going to Wikimania, it is indeed
painfully expensive for many people. However, many people do go and it has
been an amazing experience every time. What is of relevance is what having a
Wikimania in a location does for the communities that are associated with
it. What it does for us achieving our goal.

When the issues that people have with a country are to be a reason for not
going there, it does open up a Pandora's box. Do not go there. You definetly
do not want to go there. Consider, you ask the question, but are you willing
and able to accept the answer ?

Thanks,
GerardM

On 10/9/07, David Strauss <david@fourkitchens.com> wrote:
>
> phoebe ayers wrote:
> > (resend to the foundation list, plus a postscript)
> >
> > On 10/9/07, David Strauss <david@fourkitchens.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> Cary Bass wrote:
> >>>> The Jury for Wikimania 2008 bids have met and are pleased to announce
> >>>> that Wikimania 2008 will be held in Alexandria, Egypt.
> >>> I'm offended that the desire to have Wikimania hop around the globe
> >>> (rotation) trumps the egregious history Egypt has with LGBT and other
> >>> civil rights (local laws). While visitors to Egypt are certainly not
> at
> >>> the same risk, I refuse to spend any money in a country that -- as
> >>> recently as 2004 -- sentenced someone to 17 years of prison and two
> >>> years of hard labor for posting a personal ad on a gay website[1]. A
> >>> blogger was imprisoned in 2007 for four years for "insulting Islam and
> >>> defaming the President of Egypt."[2] Jimmy Wales even attended the
> >>> Amnesty conference denouncing the censorship. No legal or cultural
> >>> reforms since give me confidence that the situation has improved.
> >>>
> >>> Wikimedia and its projects have an abundance of people from
> marginalized
> >>> groups and political advocacy organizations participating at every
> >>> level. A place that persecutes, censors, and prosecutes such groups
> >>> under the banner of snuffing out "Satanism" is not a location that
> >>> affirms the pluralism and intellectual freedom of Wikimedia.
> >>>
> >>> People raised these objections early in the bidding process, but I
> have
> >> As a jury member, I do not remember any comments from you on this
> >> subject, David; perhaps I missed them. At any rate, what are you
> >> trying to accomplish by sending this message after the winner was
> >> announced, and not before when we were discussing the bids?
> >>
> >> Wikimania and Wikimedia are both global in scope, which means that
> >> while we can condemn censorship and loss of human rights everywhere we
> >> must also take into account a global range of values. Our projects
> >> focus specifically on free knowledge, and I expect that will be
> >> highlighted at the conference.
> >>
> >> -- phoebe
> >
> > p.s. as a postscript to this message which I also sent to wikimania-l,
> I'd
> > like to point out that this is not a closed process, and if anyone feels
> as
> > strongly about the criteria as David does, a message to the 2009 jury
> would
> > be appreciated. We the jurors did our best good-faith effort to
> incorporate
> > community concerns and use our own best judgment about this often
> > contentious process; but we cannot fully represent the community without
> > community feedback. We got little to no response to our calls for
> feedback
> > on the criteria. Such sweeping statements as David makes are certainly
> best
> > backed up with a little effort to provide data while decisions are being
> > made.
>
> The voting system, while flawed in my opinion, has little to do with the
> fact that Atlanta was hurt more by being closer to a previous Wikimania
> than Alexandira was hurt by Egypt's history of imprisoning gays and
> political/religious dissidents.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
> do not deserve to be belittle, isolated or generally marginalized (which
> is what you propose) simply because they happen not to live in a country
> most agreeable to your personal beliefs.
> -- Florence Devouard

The economic, academic, cultural, and sporting boycott of apartheid
South Africa helped to bring down the apartheid regime.[1]

I put up freedom ratings for the countries for the early bids[2] which
was unfortunately moved to a talk page[3][4]. I didn't make any
comments on Egypt's very bad ratings because while *I* think
boycotting unethical governments (and the people who vote for them in
democracies) as much as possible is the ethical thing to do, I
understand that there is an argument to be made that more contact with
these regimes can lead to them becoming more ethical (where ethical =
Scandinavian level freedom, and less killing and oppression).

As for danger, Cape Town is the most dangerous place in South
Africa[5], a country with the highest[6] or 2nd highest[7] murder rate
in the world outside a war zone (about 8 times worse than the USA[7],
don't know about Egypt), and the most rapes[8]. (9)

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Apartheid_Movement
[2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimania_2008/Bids&diff=597060&oldid=596471
[3] http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimania_2008/Bids&diff=599680&oldid=599493
[4] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimania_2008/Judging_criteria#Freedom_ranking
[5] http://www.iss.org.za/pubs/CrimeQ/No.13/Matzopolous.htm
[6] http://www.financevisor.com/market/news_detail.aspx?rid=58195
[7] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate#2000s
[8] http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_1838495,00.html
(9) I was attacked by a gang of 4 while walking from the Cape Town
train station to the proposed Cape Town Wikimania venue, CTICC, for a
book fair. Of course this could have happened in Alexandria or Atlanta
also, but the CTICC security guard said it wasn't her problem, the
South African police never even acknowledged my report, and South
African government ministers have said that people who complain about
the crime should just leave the country.
--
User:Jeandré du Toit

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Re: Wikimania 2008 will happen in Alexandria, Egypt [ In reply to ]
On 10/11/07, Jeandré du Toit <jackdt@gmail.com> wrote:
> I didn't make any
> comments on Egypt's very bad ratings because while *I* think
> boycotting unethical governments (and the people who vote for them in
> democracies) as much as possible is the ethical thing to do, I
> understand that there is an argument to be made that more contact with
> these regimes can lead to them becoming more ethical (where ethical =
> Scandinavian level freedom, and less killing and oppression).
>
When you say you boycott "unethical governments (and the people who
vote for them in democracies)", do you include the people who voted
against them, and the people who didn't vote at all? Also, what
amount of unethical behavior by a government is too much? Aren't all
government guilty of unethical behavior?

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