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c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
> I've run into a rather odd problem. It seems that I can format and make
> bootable CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives under Windows 98SE and MS-DOS
> 6.22 that will boot to a A: prompt on my system.
>
>
> But when I try making the same CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives bootable
> under linux using syslinux I get nothing, not even a error message. It's
> like the syslinux bootloader doesn't even exist on the CF/SD cards and
> USB Flashdrives.
>
> I've looked at the CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives using Gparted and it
> says the cards using syslinux are bootable, so that's not the problem.
>
> I'm pretty sure the CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives aren't being
> formated as USB-ZIP under Win98se and MS-DOS 6.22, so why can I create
> bootable CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives under Win98se and MS-DOS 6.22,
> but not under Linux using syslinux?

They're probably triggering different bugs. In particular Win98SE and
MS-DOS may not be using EBIOS, whereas syslinux might be trying to and
getting a hard lockup.

The first thing to try is to install syslinux with the -s option. I
need to add an option to force CBIOS, too.

> Am I overlooking something here?
>
> Here's a look at my motherboard and BIOS.

What program are you using to print this summary out, out of curiosity?

-hpa

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c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
> I've run into a rather odd problem. It seems that I can format and make
> bootable CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives under Windows 98SE and MS-DOS
> 6.22 that will boot to a A: prompt on my system.
>
>
> But when I try making the same CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives bootable
> under linux using syslinux I get nothing, not even a error message. It's
> like the syslinux bootloader doesn't even exist on the CF/SD cards and
> USB Flashdrives.
>
> I've looked at the CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives using Gparted and it
> says the cards using syslinux are bootable, so that's not the problem.
>
> I'm pretty sure the CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives aren't being
> formated as USB-ZIP under Win98se and MS-DOS 6.22, so why can I create
> bootable CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives under Win98se and MS-DOS 6.22,
> but not under Linux using syslinux?
>
Could be a BIOS issue. My BIOS (ASUS) always assumes that any device
under 512MB is a USB Floppy and above it assumes is a USB HDD. For a USB
PEN/CF/SD under those 512MB to be detected as a USB HDD, there is an
option ( BIOS ) that forces it to behave like one.

Also, have you tried to issue syslinux with -ma options ?

Hope it helps,
Rui Santos


> Am I overlooking something here?
>
> Here's a look at my motherboard and BIOS.
>
> *-core
> description: Motherboard
> product: D845GVSR
> vendor: Intel Corporation
> physical id: 0
> version: AAC45439-302
> serial: BTSR44406009
> slot: Audio Line In
>
> *-firmware
> description: BIOS
> vendor: Intel Corp.
> physical id: 0
> version: VA84510A.86A.0050.P18.0409222329 (09/22/2004)
> size: 64KB
> capacity: 448KB
> capabilities: pci pnp apm upgrade shadowing cdboot bootselect edd
> int13floppynec int13floppytoshiba int13floppy360
> int13floppy1200 int13floppy720 int13floppy2880 int5printscreen
> int9keyboard int14serial int17printer int10video acpi usb agp
> ls120boot zipboot biosbootspecification netboot
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>

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>
> What program are you using to print this summary out, out of curiosity?
>

Looks like `lshw' (ls hardware) from

ezix.org/project/wiki/HardwareLiSter
ezix.org/software/files/lshw-B.02.11.tar.gz

Peter

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Peter Bartke wrote:
>> What program are you using to print this summary out, out of curiosity?
>>
>
> Looks like `lshw' (ls hardware) from
>
> ezix.org/project/wiki/HardwareLiSter
> ezix.org/software/files/lshw-B.02.11.tar.gz
>

Nice. Looks useful.

-hpa

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On Mon, 30 Jul 2007, H. Peter Anvin wrote:

> c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
> > I've looked at the CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives using Gparted and it
> > says the cards using syslinux are bootable, so that's not the problem.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure the CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives aren't being
> > formated as USB-ZIP under Win98se and MS-DOS 6.22, so why can I create
> > bootable CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives under Win98se and MS-DOS 6.22,
> > but not under Linux using syslinux?
>
> They're probably triggering different bugs. In particular Win98SE and
> MS-DOS may not be using EBIOS, whereas syslinux might be trying to and
> getting a hard lockup.
>
> The first thing to try is to install syslinux with the -s option. I
> need to add an option to force CBIOS, too.

I'll give this a try and get back to you.

> > Am I overlooking something here?
> >
> > Here's a look at my motherboard and BIOS.
>
> What program are you using to print this summary out, out of curiosity?
>
> -hpa
>

It's called lshw and can be found on the RIP Linux 2.5.8 rescue cd as
well as other linux-based rescue cd's.

Thanks, Chris



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On Tue, 31 Jul 2007, Rui Santos wrote:

>
>
> c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
> > I've run into a rather odd problem. It seems that I can format and make
> > bootable CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives under Windows 98SE and MS-DOS
> > 6.22 that will boot to a A: prompt on my system.
> >
> >
> > But when I try making the same CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives bootable
> > under linux using syslinux I get nothing, not even a error message. It's
> > like the syslinux bootloader doesn't even exist on the CF/SD cards and
> > USB Flashdrives.
> >
> > I've looked at the CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives using Gparted and it
> > says the cards using syslinux are bootable, so that's not the problem.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure the CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives aren't being
> > formated as USB-ZIP under Win98se and MS-DOS 6.22, so why can I create
> > bootable CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives under Win98se and MS-DOS 6.22,
> > but not under Linux using syslinux?
> >
> Could be a BIOS issue. My BIOS (ASUS) always assumes that any device
> under 512MB is a USB Floppy and above it assumes is a USB HDD. For a USB
> PEN/CF/SD under those 512MB to be detected as a USB HDD, there is an
> option ( BIOS ) that forces it to behave like one.
>

I don't know about this. As you can see this CF card formatted under
Windows 98se is a 1 gig card......


Volume in drive A is 1-GIG
Volume Serial Number is 1EEA-2658
Directory of A:\

COMMAND COM 93,890 04-23-99 10:22p
1-GIG TXT 0 07-31-07 11:21p
2 file(s) 93,890 bytes
0 dir(s) 1,024,770,048 bytes free

And Linux Fdisk seems to see it as a dos-partitioned hardrive rather
than a (super) floppy.


Disk /dev/sdb: 1025 MB, 1025482752 bytes
62 heads, 15 sectors/track, 2153 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 930 * 512 = 476160 bytes

Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/sdb1 * 1 2154 1001447+ 6 FAT16


> Also, have you tried to issue syslinux with -ma options ?
>
> Hope it helps,
> Rui Santos

Not yet, but I've give it try when I have some free time avalible...

Chris



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c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> I don't know about this. As you can see this CF card formatted under
> Windows 98se is a 1 gig card......
>
>
> Volume in drive A is 1-GIG
> Volume Serial Number is 1EEA-2658
> Directory of A:\
>
> COMMAND COM 93,890 04-23-99 10:22p
> 1-GIG TXT 0 07-31-07 11:21p
> 2 file(s) 93,890 bytes
> 0 dir(s) 1,024,770,048 bytes free
>
> And Linux Fdisk seems to see it as a dos-partitioned hardrive rather
> than a (super) floppy.
>
>
> Disk /dev/sdb: 1025 MB, 1025482752 bytes
> 62 heads, 15 sectors/track, 2153 cylinders
> Units = cylinders of 930 * 512 = 476160 bytes
>
> Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
> /dev/sdb1 * 1 2154 1001447+ 6 FAT16
>

This is kind of interesting. The partition crosses the cylinder 1024
boundary, and yet has type 6. This is plain unusable for MS-DOS, and
wrong for Win98SE (which would expect partition type e). That normally
means the geometry is wrong, but that usually causes fdisk to complain.

-hpa

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On Wed, 1 Aug 2007, H. Peter Anvin wrote:

> c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > I don't know about this. As you can see this CF card formatted under
> > Windows 98se is a 1 gig card......
> >
> >
> > Volume in drive A is 1-GIG
> > Volume Serial Number is 1EEA-2658
> > Directory of A:\
> >
> > COMMAND COM 93,890 04-23-99 10:22p
> > 1-GIG TXT 0 07-31-07 11:21p
> > 2 file(s) 93,890 bytes
> > 0 dir(s) 1,024,770,048 bytes free
> >
> > And Linux Fdisk seems to see it as a dos-partitioned hardrive rather
> > than a (super) floppy.
> >
> >
> > Disk /dev/sdb: 1025 MB, 1025482752 bytes
> > 62 heads, 15 sectors/track, 2153 cylinders
> > Units = cylinders of 930 * 512 = 476160 bytes
> >
> > Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
> > /dev/sdb1 * 1 2154 1001447+ 6 FAT16
> >
>
> This is kind of interesting. The partition crosses the cylinder 1024
> boundary, and yet has type 6. This is plain unusable for MS-DOS, and
> wrong for Win98SE (which would expect partition type e). That normally
> means the geometry is wrong, but that usually causes fdisk to complain.
>
> -hpa
>

Yea, fdisk did complain but I left that part out of the email.

Here's the whole fdisk dialogue........

[clee2@moonshadow mystuff]$ su
Password:
[root@moonshadow mystuff]# /sbin/fdisk /dev/sdb

The number of cylinders for this disk is set to 2153.
There is nothing wrong with that, but this is larger than 1024,
and could in certain setups cause problems with:
1) software that runs at boot time (e.g., old versions of LILO)
2) booting and partitioning software from other OSs
(e.g., DOS FDISK, OS/2 FDISK)

Command (m for help): p

Disk /dev/sdb: 1025 MB, 1025482752 bytes
62 heads, 15 sectors/track, 2153 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 930 * 512 = 476160 bytes

Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/sdb1 * 1 2154 1001447+ 6 FAT16

Command (m for help):q

Hope this helps

Chris


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c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Yea, fdisk did complain but I left that part out of the email.
>
> Here's the whole fdisk dialogue........
>

Could you do:

dd if=/dev/sdb bs=512 count=1 | hexdump -C

... and post the output?

-hpa

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On Wed, 1 Aug 2007, H. Peter Anvin wrote:

> c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > Yea, fdisk did complain but I left that part out of the email.
> >
> > Here's the whole fdisk dialogue........
> >
>
> Could you do:
>
> dd if=/dev/sdb bs=512 count=1 | hexdump -C
>
> ... and post the output?
>
> -hpa
>

Sure.....

[root@moonshadow mystuff]# dd if=/dev/sdb bs=512 count=1 | hexdump -C
1+0 records in
1+0 records out
00000000 fa 33 c0 8e d0 bc 00 7c 8b f4 50 07 50 1f fb fc |ú3À.м.|.ôP.P.ûü|
00000010 bf 00 06 b9 00 01 f2 a5 ea 1d 06 00 00 be be 07 |¿..¹..ò¥ê....¾¾.|
00000020 b3 04 80 3c 80 74 0e 80 3c 00 75 1c 83 c6 10 fe |³..<.t..<.u..Æ.þ|
00000030 cb 75 ef cd 18 8b 14 8b 4c 02 8b ee 83 c6 10 fe |ËuïÍ....L..î.Æ.þ|
00000040 cb 74 1a 80 3c 00 74 f4 be 8b 06 ac 3c 00 74 0b |Ët..<.tô¾..¬<.t.|
00000050 56 bb 07 00 b4 0e cd 10 5e eb f0 eb fe bf 05 00 |V»..´.Í.^ëðëþ¿..|
00000060 bb 00 7c b8 01 02 57 cd 13 5f 73 0c 33 c0 cd 13 |».|¸..WÍ._s.3ÀÍ.|
00000070 4f 75 ed be a3 06 eb d3 be c2 06 bf fe 7d 81 3d |Ouí¾£.ëÓ¾Â.¿þ}.=|
00000080 55 aa 75 c7 8b f5 ea 00 7c 00 00 49 6e 76 61 6c |UªuÇ.õê.|..Inval|
00000090 69 64 20 70 61 72 74 69 74 69 6f 6e 20 74 61 62 |id partition tab|
000000a0 6c 65 00 45 72 72 6f 72 20 6c 6f 61 64 69 6e 67 |le.Error loading|
000000b0 20 6f 70 65 72 61 74 69 6e 67 20 73 79 73 74 65 | operating syste|
000000c0 6d 00 4d 69 73 73 69 6e 67 20 6f 70 65 72 61 74 |m.Missing operat|
000000d0 69 6e 67 20 73 79 73 74 65 6d 00 00 00 00 00 00 |ing system......|
000000e0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
*
000001b0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 4d b9 2a 67 00 00 80 01 |........M¹*g....|
000001c0 01 00 06 3d 0f 7e 20 00 00 00 cf 8f 1e 00 00 00 |...=.~ ...Ï.....|
000001d0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
*
000001f0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 55 aa |..............Uª|
00000200



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On Mon, 30 Jul 2007, H. Peter Anvin wrote:

> c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
> > I've run into a rather odd problem. It seems that I can format and make
> > bootable CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives under Windows 98SE and MS-DOS
> > 6.22 that will boot to a A: prompt on my system.
> >
> >
> > But when I try making the same CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives bootable
> > under linux using syslinux I get nothing, not even a error message. It's
> > like the syslinux bootloader doesn't even exist on the CF/SD cards and
> > USB Flashdrives.
> >
> > I've looked at the CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives using Gparted and it
> > says the cards using syslinux are bootable, so that's not the problem.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure the CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives aren't being
> > formated as USB-ZIP under Win98se and MS-DOS 6.22, so why can I create
> > bootable CF/SD cards and USB Flashdrives under Win98se and MS-DOS 6.22,
> > but not under Linux using syslinux?
>
> They're probably triggering different bugs. In particular Win98SE and
> MS-DOS may not be using EBIOS, whereas syslinux might be trying to and
> getting a hard lockup.
>
> The first thing to try is to install syslinux with the -s option. I
> need to add an option to force CBIOS, too.
>

I've managed to get my CF/SD usb flash drives to boot using syslinux at
last.

What I did was the following:

******************************************************************************

[root@localhost clee2]# /usr/share/syslinux/mkdiskimage -z /dev/sdg 0 64 32
[root@localhost clee2]# syslinux /dev/sdg1
[root@localhost clee2]# /sbin/fdisk /dev/sdg

Command (m for help): p

Disk /dev/sdg: 524 MB, 524286976 bytes
64 heads, 32 sectors/track, 499 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 2048 * 512 = 1048576 bytes

Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/sdg1 * 1 499 510960 6 FAT16

Command (m for help): q

*************************************************************************

[clee2@localhost ~]$ mc

[clee2@localhost mystuff]$ su
Password:
[root@localhost mystuff]# /usr/share/syslinux/mkdiskimage -z /dev/sdg 0 64 32
[root@localhost mystuff]# syslinux /dev/sdg1
[root@localhost mystuff]# /sbin/fdisk /dev/sdg

Command (m for help): p

Disk /dev/sdg: 1025 MB, 1025482752 bytes
64 heads, 32 sectors/track, 977 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 2048 * 512 = 1048576 bytes

Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/sdg1 * 1 977 1000432 6 FAT16

Command (m for help): q


After I did the above and rebooted the computer, I got the following
syslinux message/prompt for the CF/SD/Flashdrives I couldn't get to boot
before with syslinux....

Syslinux 3.51 2007-06-10 CBIOS Copyright (C) 1994-2007 H. Peter Anvin
could not find kernel image: linux
boot:


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[root@localhost mystuff]# /usr/share/syslinux/mkdiskimage -z /dev/sdg 0 64 32
[root@localhost mystuff]# syslinux /dev/sdg1

PS. This change to using mkdiskimage would most likely work better than
the above since it handles larger (1 gig+) SD/CF/USB Flashdrives better.

Well, it does on my system....

[root@localhost clee2]# /usr/share/syslinux/mkdiskimage -z /dev/sdg 0 255 63
[root@localhost clee2]# syslinux /dev/sdg1

[root@localhost clee2]# /sbin/fdisk /dev/sdg

Command (m for help): p

Disk /dev/sdg: 1025 MB, 1025482752 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 124 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes

Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/sdg1 * 1 124 995998+ 6 FAT16

Command (m for help):q




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c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
> [root@localhost mystuff]# /usr/share/syslinux/mkdiskimage -z /dev/sdg 0 64 32
> [root@localhost mystuff]# syslinux /dev/sdg1
>
> PS. This change to using mkdiskimage would most likely work better than
> the above since it handles larger (1 gig+) SD/CF/USB Flashdrives better.
>
> Well, it does on my system....
>
> [root@localhost clee2]# /usr/share/syslinux/mkdiskimage -z /dev/sdg 0 255 63
> [root@localhost clee2]# syslinux /dev/sdg1

-z is redundant with "64 32". Either way, there are a *LOT* of systems
in the field which will only correctly to USB drives with zipdrive
geometry, so I think this may very well be bad advice. However, it's
hard to say what will work on more systems, given how utterly rotten the
situation in the field is.

-hpa

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On Sun, 19 Aug 2007, H. Peter Anvin wrote:

> c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
> > [root@localhost mystuff]# /usr/share/syslinux/mkdiskimage -z /dev/sdg 0 64 32
> > [root@localhost mystuff]# syslinux /dev/sdg1
> >
> > PS. This change to using mkdiskimage would most likely work better than
> > the above since it handles larger (1 gig+) SD/CF/USB Flashdrives better.
> >
> > Well, it does on my system....
> >
> > [root@localhost clee2]# /usr/share/syslinux/mkdiskimage -z /dev/sdg 0 255 63
> > [root@localhost clee2]# syslinux /dev/sdg1
>
> -z is redundant with "64 32". Either way, there are a *LOT* of systems
> in the field which will only correctly to USB drives with zipdrive
> geometry, so I think this may very well be bad advice. However, it's
> hard to say what will work on more systems, given how utterly rotten the
> situation in the field is.
>
> -hpa

I was using -z to set the values to 64 32 in order to flush any
garbage that may have been picked up from the usb drive before changing
them to 0 255 63.

What I'm wondering though is was I in fact running into a variation of
the bug that older versions of lilo had with hard drives that fdisk
mentioned with syslinux, and would it be possible to do the same
kind of fix that the newer versions of lilo did to get around it for
syslinux?

Because if in fact that was the case, it would explain why I could
create bootable usb drives under Win98se but not under syslinux without
using mkdiskimage to change the drive geometry, because the bootloader
Win98se installed on the usb drive wasn't affected by the original drive
geometry.


Just a thought.

Chris



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c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
>
> What I'm wondering though is was I in fact running into a variation of
> the bug that older versions of lilo had with hard drives that fdisk
> mentioned with syslinux, and would it be possible to do the same
> kind of fix that the newer versions of lilo did to get around it for
> syslinux?
>

I have no idea what bug you're talking about.

-hpa

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On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, H. Peter Anvin wrote:

> c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > What I'm wondering though is was I in fact running into a variation of
> > the bug that older versions of lilo had with hard drives that fdisk
> > mentioned with syslinux, and would it be possible to do the same
> > kind of fix that the newer versions of lilo did to get around it for
> > syslinux?
> >
>
> I have no idea what bug you're talking about.
>
> -hpa
>

This one. It only applied to really old versions of lilo from before
2000 or so and was fixed in newer versions of lilo ages ago.

Here is a article that talks about the LILO bug I was talking about.

*************************************************************************


"The Linux Gazette...making Linux just a little more fun!"
_________________________________________________________________

(?)-[qbubble.gif] The Answer Guy (!)-[bbubble.gif]

By James T. Dennis, tag@lists.linuxgazette.net
LinuxCare, http://www.linuxcare.com/
_________________________________________________________________

(?) Keeping Both Hard Drives Connected

New LILO Overcomes 1024 Cylinder Limit!

From Crazy Weirdo on Thu, 23 Mar 2000

Answer Guy,

I just bought a new hard drive for my pc. I put Linux on it. The
problem with that is i cant keep both hard drives connected at the
same time unless i keep changing the jumpers. Is there a way to make
LILO boot windows while its on another HDD....if so...how is it done?

This is a test of the Weirdo e-mail system. Had this been an actual
e-mail you would have become extremely hostile towards me and other
users of the internet, but just relax and realize that this was just a
test.

Weirdo

(!) I presume that these are IDE hard drives. It doesn't matter too
much, but there wouldn't be this problem with SCSI.

Anyway, LILO will load an OS off of any drive and partition that
the BIOS can see. I've heard that a new version finally overcomes
the classic old 1024 cylinder limit that's been plaguing it (and
us) for so long.

Oddly enough this is one of the few software upgrades that I've
seen recently that I couldn't find at Freshmeat.net
(http://www.freshmeat.net)

Another good place to look for open source and free software
release announcements is Appwatch (http://www.appwatch.com). Here's
the one for the latest LILO:

LILO 21.4.1 (John D. Rowell) 20000321 22:45 GMT

Changes: Since v21: Will boot from disks up to 2048Gb in size, as long
as the BIOS allows the Enhanced BIOS calls for 32-bit sector
addressing using packet calls; Checks if BIOS supports packet calls
(int 0x13, AH=0x42), and uses these calls if 'lba32' was specified.

Otherwise, it uses the C:H:S addressing scheme of the original IBM-PC
BIOS; the disk read routine is separated into its own source file,
"read.S", which is included in the first-stage, and second-stage
loader codes. The first stage loader uses a very stripped down read
routine, since it only deals in single sector transfers; if BIOS does
not support 32-bit packet calls, and the cylinder address overflows
when the 32-bit address is converted to C:H:S, then a "9f" error code
is issued; map compaction of 'lba32' addresses is supported with the
existing '-c' switch (or 'compact' configuration file global option);
floppy disks now will always fall back to C:H:S addressing; changed
the -v option to now accept a single digit to set the verbosity level;
e.g., 'lilo -v 5 ...' replaces 'lilo -v -v -v -v -v ...' for maximum
diagnostic output;

LILO version information is moved to the file 'version.h', and VERSION
is now deleted. This allows for tracking of VERSION_MAJOR (=21) and
VERSION_MINOR (=3) for this and future code paths;

Inspired by 'dparam.com', a much more extensive BIOS test program is
included with this version. Called 'disk.com', it was developed under
DOS, and requires 'nasm' to be assembled; DISK.COM will probe the BIOS
for disks supported by the BIOS, and report on their CHS geometry.

If EDD is supported, the EDD geometry is also reported. If disks with
cylinder numbers of 1024 or above are detected, it will issue a
recommendation to use LILO with the 'lba32' option. Creation of the
bootable floppy image version of this utility is incomplete at this
time. Fixed: bug in 'read.S' that disabled the combination 'linear'
with 'compact' ( '-l' and '-c' together). Added: the '-L' command line
switch and 'lba32' configuration file global option.

Note: Currently only available here. Console / System (BSD)

(http://www.appwatch.com/Linux/Users/history?app_id=46&vty_id=S)

What all of that goobledygook means is that LILO has been updated
to handle these HUGE drives without forcing us to have a little
partition below the 1024 cylinder line that used to be the upper
limit on PC hard drive sizes. (Read some of my back issue rants
about LILO to get more info on that then you want to hear).

So, back to your question:

If you have a LILO conf like this:

boot = /dev/hda
root = /dev/hda1
prompt

image = /boot/vmlinuz-2.3.99pre3
read-only
append="devfs=nomount"
label = new

image = /boot/vmlinuz-2.2.14
read-only
label = cur

image = /boot/vmlinuz-2.0.38
read-only
label = old

other = /dev/hdb1
label = dos

You should be able to have both drives co-exist. You should be able
to use LILO to boot any of the three Linux kernels (new, cur(rent),
and old) or your MS-DOS/Win'9x by simply typing any one of those
three-letter keywords (stanza labels) at the LILO prompt.

Note that the "other" directive points to /dev/hdb1 --- the first
partition on the second IDE hard drive on your primary IDE
controller. That might be /dev/hdc1 (master hard drive on the
secondary controller) or even /dev/hdd1 (slave drive on the
secondary contoller). That all depends on how your drives are
physically connected, and if you have an IDE CD-ROM and how its
connected. Of course it might be in some other partition on any of
these drives. You BIOS might only allow you to boot from /dev/hda
and /dev/hdb (first two drives on the primary controller).

I'm once again going to point to LOADLIN.EXE. Search through my
archives here at Linux Gazette:

Search

... to review what I've said about this before. My basic rule of
thumb is: "If you have to ask about making MS-DOS and/or MS-Win '9x
co-exist with Linux --- USE LOADLIN.EXE!"

It just works. No muss! No fuss! No worrying about what drive,
partition, or cylinder your kernel is on. The object of this game
is to get the Linux kernel (and maybe an initial RAM disk) into
memory, and jump into the kernel image's entry point (possibly
passing it a list of command line arguments). Once you've managed
that, then the Linux kernel can take care of all the other fussy
details about finding and mounting its root filesystem and driving
its hardware. (The kernel doesn't need the BIOS for any normal
operations --- though there is some minor device configuration that
the kernel expects is already done before it got loaded. Linux has
its own 32-bit native drivers for all PC/x86 hardware). (I guess
there are some PCI BIOS32 and APM functions that are actually
handled by modern BIOS' --- but I don't know the details).
_________________________________________________________________

Copyright © 2000, James T. Dennis
Published in The Linux Gazette Issue 52 April 2000

HTML transformation by Heather Stern of Tuxtops, Inc.,
http://www.tuxtops.com/


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c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
>
> This one. It only applied to really old versions of lilo from before
> 2000 or so and was fixed in newer versions of lilo ages ago.
>

And, pray tell, what made you think that syslinux is affected by this?

Syslinux has *never* used static determination of geometry, except on
floppies. Syslinux 3.00+ will use EBIOS (LBA) if available.

-hpa

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On Thu, 23 Aug 2007, H. Peter Anvin wrote:

> c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > This one. It only applied to really old versions of lilo from before
> > 2000 or so and was fixed in newer versions of lilo ages ago.
> >
>
> And, pray tell, what made you think that syslinux is affected by this?
>
> Syslinux has *never* used static determination of geometry, except on
> floppies. Syslinux 3.00+ will use EBIOS (LBA) if available.
>
> -hpa
>
Well something is going on that has to do with the geometry of SD/CF
cards and USB Flashdrives and I don't think it all has to do with with
the BIOS USB ZIP issue either. I'm tending to think Syslinux maybe
is touchy in reguards to what drive geometry (number of cylinders
in particular) a usb SD/CF card or USB flashdrive is formatted with.

Like I said before it's pretty much the only thing that would explain
why usb cards and flashdrives I formatted to be bootable under windows
98 would boot, (and they weren't patitioned using zip drive or floppy
geometry) but the same cards and drives wouldn't boot on the same
machine using syslinux untill I went and changed the card or drive
geometry to either 64 32 or 255 63 using mkdiskimage under linux, which
basically changed the number of cylinders from being over 1024 to
being under 1024.










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c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
>>
> Well something is going on that has to do with the geometry of SD/CF
> cards and USB Flashdrives and I don't think it all has to do with with
> the BIOS USB ZIP issue either. I'm tending to think Syslinux maybe
> is touchy in reguards to what drive geometry (number of cylinders
> in particular) a usb SD/CF card or USB flashdrive is formatted with.
>
> Like I said before it's pretty much the only thing that would explain
> why usb cards and flashdrives I formatted to be bootable under windows
> 98 would boot, (and they weren't patitioned using zip drive or floppy
> geometry) but the same cards and drives wouldn't boot on the same
> machine using syslinux untill I went and changed the card or drive
> geometry to either 64 32 or 255 63 using mkdiskimage under linux, which
> basically changed the number of cylinders from being over 1024 to
> being under 1024.

SYSLINUX requires that the BIOS is self-consistent, that is, that it
reports the same geometry that it itself expects to use -- except, of
course, unless it is in LBA mode.

There seems, unfortunately, to be some BIOSes which say one thing and do
another.

-hpa

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On Fri, 24 Aug 2007, H. Peter Anvin wrote:

> c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> > Well something is going on that has to do with the geometry of SD/CF
> > cards and USB Flashdrives and I don't think it all has to do with with
> > the BIOS USB ZIP issue either. I'm tending to think Syslinux maybe
> > is touchy in reguards to what drive geometry (number of cylinders
> > in particular) a usb SD/CF card or USB flashdrive is formatted with.
> >
> > Like I said before it's pretty much the only thing that would explain
> > why usb cards and flashdrives I formatted to be bootable under windows
> > 98 would boot, (and they weren't patitioned using zip drive or floppy
> > geometry) but the same cards and drives wouldn't boot on the same
> > machine using syslinux untill I went and changed the card or drive
> > geometry to either 64 32 or 255 63 using mkdiskimage under linux, which
> > basically changed the number of cylinders from being over 1024 to
> > being under 1024.
>
> SYSLINUX requires that the BIOS is self-consistent, that is, that it
> reports the same geometry that it itself expects to use -- except, of
> course, unless it is in LBA mode.
>
> There seems, unfortunately, to be some BIOSes which say one thing and do
> another.
>
> -hpa
>

So you're basically saying that SYSLINUX is in fact pretty much affected
by a 1024 cylinder bug. Basically if SYSLINUX encounters more than
1024 cylinders on USB media on a machine that has a BIOS that's not
"self-consistent", SYSLINUX becomes confused and doesn't know what
to do next and therefore the USB boot process either aborts or crashes.

Chris.










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c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
>
> So you're basically saying that SYSLINUX is in fact pretty much affected
> by a 1024 cylinder bug. Basically if SYSLINUX encounters more than
> 1024 cylinders on USB media on a machine that has a BIOS that's not
> "self-consistent", SYSLINUX becomes confused and doesn't know what
> to do next and therefore the USB boot process either aborts or crashes.
>

No, I'm not saying that at all.

ANY bootloader needs LBA/EBIOS support to access more than 1024
cylinders. Period. Anyone who tells you anything else is lying. If
you're using EBIOS, then there is no geometry involved in any way, so
there is no possibility of anything in the system getting confused.

SYSLINUX 3.00+ will use EBIOS if it is available at boot time.

If EBIOS is *not* available, SYSLINUX will query the BIOS at boot time
for what the BIOS thinks the geometry should be, and will internally
convert linear block addresses to CHS addresses, and pass them to CBIOS.
It is the CBIOS interface which has the 1024-cylinder limitation.
Remember, at this point we've already tried talking EBIOS, and gotten
rejected, so we don't have any alternative.

What appears to have happened with some BIOS vendors when it comes to
the USB booting code is that they have internally gotten confused, and
reports one geometry to the CBIOS geometry query call (INT 13h AH=08h)
but somehow translate the geometry differently. I don't have to explain
to you the sheer degree of incompetence and lack of testing that that
implies, but nevertheless appears to be a reality[*]. Part of the
problem appears to be misguided attempts at compatibility which involves
BIOS reading the MBR and partition table and trying to adjust itself to
match; this is my best guess why formatting with a zipdrive geometry
(H:S = 64:32) appears to work on some systems.

-hpa


[*] To be fair, I am limited largely by reports, since I don't have a
specimen. My local systems either all boot from USB just fine, or fail
completely.

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On Fri, 24 Aug 2007, H. Peter Anvin wrote:

> No, I'm not saying that at all.
>
> ANY bootloader needs LBA/EBIOS support to access more than 1024
> cylinders. Period. Anyone who tells you anything else is lying. If
> you're using EBIOS, then there is no geometry involved in any way, so
> there is no possibility of anything in the system getting confused.
>
> SYSLINUX 3.00+ will use EBIOS if it is available at boot time.
>
> If EBIOS is *not* available, SYSLINUX will query the BIOS at boot time
> for what the BIOS thinks the geometry should be, and will internally
> convert linear block addresses to CHS addresses, and pass them to CBIOS.
> It is the CBIOS interface which has the 1024-cylinder limitation.
> Remember, at this point we've already tried talking EBIOS, and gotten
> rejected, so we don't have any alternative.
>
> What appears to have happened with some BIOS vendors when it comes to
> the USB booting code is that they have internally gotten confused, and
> reports one geometry to the CBIOS geometry query call (INT 13h AH=08h)
> but somehow translate the geometry differently. I don't have to explain
> to you the sheer degree of incompetence and lack of testing that that
> implies, but nevertheless appears to be a reality[*]. Part of the
> problem appears to be misguided attempts at compatibility which involves
> BIOS reading the MBR and partition table and trying to adjust itself to
> match; this is my best guess why formatting with a zipdrive geometry
> (H:S = 64:32) appears to work on some systems.
>
> -hpa
>
> [*] To be fair, I am limited largely by reports, since I don't have a
> specimen. My local systems either all boot from USB just fine, or fail
> completely.
>
>

So why does SYSLINUX 3.00+ fail to detect LBA/EBIOS support on my
machine when it is clearly being used as shown by the GRUB boot loader
on the 1st hard drive and the Windows 98 partition on the 2nd harddrive.

******************
1st hard drive
******************

Partition Table for /dev/hda

First Last
# Type Sector Sector Offset Length Filesystem Type (ID) Flag
-- ------- ----------- ----------- ------ ----------- -------------------- ----
1 Primary 0 78156224 63 78156225 HPFS/NTFS (07) Boot

---Starting--- ----Ending---- Start Number of
# Flags Head Sect Cyl ID Head Sect Cyl Sector Sectors
-- ----- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----------- -----------
1 0x80 1 1 0 0x07 254 63 1023 63 78156162
2 0x00 0 0 0 0x00 0 0 0 0 0
3 0x00 0 0 0 0x00 0 0 0 0 0
4 0x00 0 0 0 0x00 0 0 0 0 0

Disk /dev/hda: 40.0 GB, 40020664320 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 4865 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes

Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/hda1 * 1 4865 39078081 7 HPFS/NTFS

--- /dev/hda
Block device, size 37.27 GiB (40020664320 bytes)
GRUB boot loader, compat version 3.2, boot drive 0x81
DOS/MBR partition map
Partition 1: 37.27 GiB (40015954944 bytes, 78156162 sectors from 63, bootable)
Type 0x07 (HPFS/NTFS)
Windows NTLDR boot loader
NTFS file system
Volume size 37.26 GiB (40007729152 bytes, 78140096 sectors)

------------------------------------------------------------------

(Note: Files created by Parted Magic, and saved in the folder
location of '/root/', exist temporarily in memory; and will be
deleted when the system is rebooted.)

Consider using either the 'Session File Saver' from the Panel's
Utilities menu to help you save this session's utility-
generated, data files to an alternate (and static) location; or
use the 'Mount Utility' (also from the Panel's Utilities menu)
to mount a target drive, and then manually copy your data file(s)
to the mounted target.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Parted Magic LiveCD/USB
copyright 2007, Patrick J. Verner
www.partedmagic.com

(file created Sun,26 August 2007 at 08:29:47)

******************
2nd hard drive
******************

Partition Table for /dev/hdb

First Last
# Type Sector Sector Offset Length Filesystem Type (ID) Flag
-- ------- ----------- ----------- ------ ----------- -------------------- ----
1 Primary 0 20980889 63 20980890 W95 FAT32 (LBA) (0C) Boot
2 Primary 20980890 105980804 0 84999915 Extended (05) None
5 Logical 20980890 41961779 63 20980890 Linux (83) None
6 Logical 41961780 43006004 63 1044225 Linux swap (82) None
7 Logical 43006005 49142834 63 6136830 Linux (83) None
8 Logical 49142835 61641404 63 12498570 Linux (83) None
Logical 61641405 105980804 0 44339400 Free Space None
3 Primary 105980805 126961694 0 20980890 Linux (83) None
Primary 126961695 156296384 0 29334690 Free Space None

---Starting--- ----Ending---- Start Number of
# Flags Head Sect Cyl ID Head Sect Cyl Sector Sectors
-- ----- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----------- -----------
1 0x80 1 1 0 0x0C 254 63 1023 63 20980827
2 0x00 254 63 1023 0x05 254 63 1023 20980890 84999915
3 0x00 254 63 1023 0x83 254 63 1023 105980805 20980890
4 0x00 0 0 0 0x00 0 0 0 0 0
5 0x00 254 63 1023 0x83 254 63 1023 63 20980827
6 0x00 254 63 1023 0x82 254 63 1023 63 1044162
7 0x00 254 63 1023 0x83 254 63 1023 63 6136767
8 0x00 254 63 1023 0x83 254 63 1023 63 12498507

Disk /dev/hdb: 80.0 GB, 80026361856 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 9729 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes

Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/hdb1 * 1 1306 10490413+ c W95 FAT32 (LBA)
/dev/hdb2 1307 6597 42499957+ 5 Extended
/dev/hdb3 6598 7903 10490445 83 Linux
/dev/hdb5 1307 2612 10490413+ 83 Linux
/dev/hdb6 2613 2677 522081 82 Linux swap
/dev/hdb7 2678 3059 3068383+ 83 Linux
/dev/hdb8 3060 3837 6249253+ 83 Linux

--- /dev/hdb
Block device, size 74.53 GiB (80026361856 bytes)
DOS/MBR partition map
Partition 1: 10.00 GiB (10742183424 bytes, 20980827 sectors from 63, bootable)
Type 0x0C (Win95 FAT32 (LBA))
Windows 95/98/ME boot loader
FAT32 file system (hints score 4 of 5)
Volume size 9.994 GiB (10731257856 bytes, 327492 clusters of 32 KiB)
Partition 2: 40.53 GiB (43519956480 bytes, 84999915 sectors from 20980890)
Type 0x05 (Extended)
Partition 5: 10.00 GiB (10742183424 bytes, 20980827 sectors from 20980890+63)
Type 0x83 (Linux)
Ext3 file system
Volume name "/"
UUID 49D8FD71-FECA-4DCC-9338-D4367C3FE146 (DCE, v4)
Volume size 10.00 GiB (10742181888 bytes, 2622603 blocks of 4 KiB)
Partition 6: 509.8 MiB (534610944 bytes, 1044162 sectors from 41961780+63)
Type 0x82 (Linux swap / Solaris)
Linux swap, version 2, subversion 1, 4 KiB pages, little-endian
Swap size 509.8 MiB (534601728 bytes, 130518 pages of 4 KiB)
Partition 7: 2.926 GiB (3142024704 bytes, 6136767 sectors from 43006005+63)
Type 0x83 (Linux)
Ext3 file system
UUID 1707A024-EE22-4261-AD2F-1988064378C0 (DCE, v4)
Volume size 2.926 GiB (3142021120 bytes, 3068380 blocks of 1 KiB)
Partition 8: 5.960 GiB (6399235584 bytes, 12498507 sectors from 49142835+63)
Type 0x83 (Linux)
Ext3 file system
UUID E9CB8439-210C-4614-BD4E-ACF6EC3EB7E3 (DCE, v4)
Volume size 5.960 GiB (6399234048 bytes, 6249252 blocks of 1 KiB)
Partition 3: 10.00 GiB (10742215680 bytes, 20980890 sectors from 105980805)
Type 0x83 (Linux)
Ext3 file system
UUID 56A3A013-B03C-4100-8944-F4A5475D5D85 (DCE, v4)
Volume size 10.00 GiB (10742214656 bytes, 10490444 blocks of 1 KiB)

------------------------------------------------------------------

(Note: Files created by Parted Magic, and saved in the folder
location of '/root/', exist temporarily in memory; and will be
deleted when the system is rebooted.)

Consider using either the 'Session File Saver' from the Panel's
Utilities menu to help you save this session's utility-
generated, data files to an alternate (and static) location; or
use the 'Mount Utility' (also from the Panel's Utilities menu)
to mount a target drive, and then manually copy your data file(s)
to the mounted target.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Parted Magic LiveCD/USB
copyright 2007, Patrick J. Verner
www.partedmagic.com

(file created Sun,26 August 2007 at 08:25:08)


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c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
>
> So why does SYSLINUX 3.00+ fail to detect LBA/EBIOS support on my
> machine when it is clearly being used as shown by the GRUB boot loader
> on the 1st hard drive and the Windows 98 partition on the 2nd harddrive.
>

I have no idea, nor does your paritition tables help me in any way to
find that out.

What does syslinux print on startup, in particular?

-hpa

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c.lee111@gmail.com wrote:
>
> So why does SYSLINUX 3.00+ fail to detect LBA/EBIOS support on my
> machine when it is clearly being used as shown by the GRUB boot loader
> on the 1st hard drive and the Windows 98 partition on the 2nd harddrive.
>

I looked back through your emails and I see *nothing* about booting from
a hard disk, only from CF/SD cards. EBIOS support is on a drive by
drive basis, not necessarily system-wide, unfortunately.

-hpa

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