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Am 28.08.2017 um 08:41 schrieb Raghunath Nama:
> For new users would it be better to start off with FRR or Quagga?
> I understand for existing users of Quagga they might have a choice
> either to stay with Quagga or move on to FRR.
>
> Thanks in advance

I think new users should stay with Quagga.
Supported by most distros and almost every feature included.
And if you need a feature only in FRR you'll not be a "new user".

Michael
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Hi!

> For new users would it be better to start off with FRR or Quagga?

On FreeBSD (and maybe somewhere else) there's this bug in 1.2.1
of quagga:

https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=214481

https://bugzilla.quagga.net/show_bug.cgi?id=870

So maybe use 1.1.1 to stay away from that bug.

> I understand for existing users of Quagga they might have a choice
> either to stay with Quagga or move on to FRR.

At least on FreeBSD, net/frr is a port and therefore, switching
between quagga and free looks pretty straigtforward.

I don't know if the problem above is fixed in FRR (which is a fork
of quagga, as far as I know).

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On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 02:52:24PM +0200, Kurt Jaeger wrote:
> On FreeBSD (and maybe somewhere else) there's this bug in 1.2.1
> of quagga:
>
> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=214481
>
> https://bugzilla.quagga.net/show_bug.cgi?id=870
>
> So maybe use 1.1.1 to stay away from that bug.
>
> > I understand for existing users of Quagga they might have a choice
> > either to stay with Quagga or move on to FRR.
>
> At least on FreeBSD, net/frr is a port and therefore, switching
> between quagga and free looks pretty straigtforward.
>
> I don't know if the problem above is fixed in FRR (which is a fork
> of quagga, as far as I know).

I'm the reporter of bug ID 870. From my personal experience, FRR does
not suffer from this problem. It was also discussed on the FRR dev
mailing list earlier this year:

https://lists.frrouting.org/pipermail/dev/2017-March/000498.html

- Mark

--
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On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 at 22:10, Mark Kamichoff <prox@prolixium.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 02:52:24PM +0200, Kurt Jaeger wrote:
> > On FreeBSD (and maybe somewhere else) there's this bug in 1.2.1
> > of quagga:
> >
> > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=214481
> >
> > https://bugzilla.quagga.net/show_bug.cgi?id=870
> >
> > So maybe use 1.1.1 to stay away from that bug.
> >
> > > I understand for existing users of Quagga they might have a choice
> > > either to stay with Quagga or move on to FRR.
> >
> > At least on FreeBSD, net/frr is a port and therefore, switching
> > between quagga and free looks pretty straigtforward.
> >
> > I don't know if the problem above is fixed in FRR (which is a fork
> > of quagga, as far as I know).


This would be closed soon. Working on this. Would try to address this at
the earliest

Thanks
Balaji

>
>
> I'm the reporter of bug ID 870. From my personal experience, FRR does
> not suffer from this problem. It was also discussed on the FRR dev
> mailing list earlier this year:
>
> https://lists.frrouting.org/pipermail/dev/2017-March/000498.html
>
> - Mark
>
> --
> Mark Kamichoff
> prox@prolixium.com
> https://www.prolixium.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Quagga-users mailing list
> Quagga-users@lists.quagga.net
> https://lists.quagga.net/mailman/listinfo/quagga-users
>

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017, Kurt Jaeger wrote:

> At least on FreeBSD, net/frr is a port and therefore, switching
> between quagga and free looks pretty straigtforward.

The Quagga project had informal legal advice years ago on something.
The principle of which everyone accepted (whether it convenient or not)
at the time.

Later, certain people now with FRR disagreed with that advice. We took
formal legal advice, based on a query Martin Winter helped formulate,
from a solicitor who looked at the actual code.

The same advice came back.

Based on that advice, the manner in which FRR are distributing the
Quagga codebase is not in accordance with the GPL licence given with the
work. Therefore, the general GPL licence on that code base is not
available to them to distribute that code-base, and they are infringing
upon the copyright of others.

I object to any of my code being distributed in a manner that is at odds
with the advice we received. Advice which at least some FRRers are aware
of.

regards,
--
Paul Jakma | paul@jakma.org | @pjakma | Key ID: 0xD86BF79464A2FF6A
Fortune:
Someone is speaking well of you.

How unusual!
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On Mon, 28 Aug 2017, Paul Jakma wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Aug 2017, Kurt Jaeger wrote:
>
>> At least on FreeBSD, net/frr is a port and therefore, switching
>> between quagga and free looks pretty straigtforward.
>
> The Quagga project had informal legal advice years ago on something. The
> principle of which everyone accepted (whether it convenient or not) at the
> time.
>
> Later, certain people now with FRR disagreed with that advice. We took formal
> legal advice, based on a query Martin Winter helped formulate, from a
> solicitor who looked at the actual code.
>
> The same advice came back.
>
> Based on that advice, the manner in which FRR are distributing the Quagga
> codebase is not in accordance with the GPL licence given with the work.
> Therefore, the general GPL licence on that code base is not available to them
> to distribute that code-base, and they are infringing upon the copyright of
> others.

Oh, and obviously, that has implications for further distribution by
others.

> I object to any of my code being distributed in a manner that is at odds with
> the advice we received. Advice which at least some FRRers are aware of.
>
> regards,
>

--
Paul Jakma | paul@jakma.org | @pjakma | Key ID: 0xD86BF79464A2FF6A
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Do your part to help preserve life on Earth -- by trying to preserve your own.
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Hi!

> On Mon, 28 Aug 2017, Kurt Jaeger wrote:
>
> > At least on FreeBSD, net/frr is a port and therefore, switching
> > between quagga and free looks pretty straigtforward.
>
> The Quagga project had informal legal advice years ago on something.

Interesting. Where can we find more about that advice ?

> Later, certain people now with FRR disagreed with that advice. We took
> formal legal advice, based on a query Martin Winter helped formulate,
> from a solicitor who looked at the actual code.
>
> The same advice came back.

Can you point to some URL where we can read more about that ?

--
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On Mon, 28 Aug 2017, Kurt Jaeger wrote:

> Hi!
>
>> For new users would it be better to start off with FRR or Quagga?
>
> On FreeBSD (and maybe somewhere else) there's this bug in 1.2.1
> of quagga:
>
> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=214481
>
> https://bugzilla.quagga.net/show_bug.cgi?id=870
>
> So maybe use 1.1.1 to stay away from that bug.

Someone needs to bisect and find the commit that introduced the issue.
It may be the 050defe commit. If 1.2.1 without that commit (and related)
works, the fix is obvious.

regards,
--
Paul Jakma | paul@jakma.org | @pjakma | Key ID: 0xD86BF79464A2FF6A
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"One lawyer can steal more than a hundred men with guns."
-- The Godfather
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On Mon, 28 Aug 2017, Kurt Jaeger wrote:

> Interesting. Where can we find more about that advice ?

> Can you point to some URL where we can read more about that ?

I think anyone who's followed this list the last couple of years will
know what it's about.

This issue was the seed of the crystalisation for all the other stuff
that went on.

regards,
--
Paul Jakma | paul@jakma.org | @pjakma | Key ID: 0xD86BF79464A2FF6A
Fortune:
"I've finally learned what `upward compatible' means. It means we
get to keep all our old mistakes."
-- Dennie van Tassel
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Hi!

> > Interesting. Where can we find more about that advice ?
>
> > Can you point to some URL where we can read more about that ?
>
> I think anyone who's followed this list the last couple of years will
> know what it's about.

I subscribed around February 2013, and I'm at loss right now.

> This issue was the seed of the crystalisation for all the other stuff
> that went on.

Additional pointers might help to understand this issue.

--
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On Aug 28, 2017, at 8:26 AM, Muenz, Michael <m.muenz@spam-fetish.org> wrote:
> Am 28.08.2017 um 08:41 schrieb Raghunath Nama:
>> For new users would it be better to start off with FRR or Quagga?
>> I understand for existing users of Quagga they might have a choice either to stay with Quagga or move on to FRR.
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>
> I think new users should stay with Quagga.
> Supported by most distros and almost every feature included.
> And if you need a feature only in FRR you'll not be a "new user".

We're pretty heavily invested in Quagga, and unfortunately, it has had some serious issues over the last few releases that have not been addressed. Most obviously, the BGP issue that has been reported time and time again in this list, that appeared after 0.99.24.1, stands to this day in 1.2.1. I would not at this time be willing to risk a new deployment on the current release.

I'm also very concerned that there is no future in Quagga because all the developer momentum has moved over to FRR. I wish this weren't the case, because I would like to see a successful project not dominated by a single commercial company (no matter how good a job they're doing). I also think that Paul was the victim of some pretty rough politics. But it is what it is, and right now (and likely for the foreseeable future), all the progress is on the FRR side.

/a
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But if Quagga want to be seriously - then why some simple stupid bugs
exists ?

Really ?


There is a bug reported over the quagga users mailinglist

where network a.b.c.d

is not imported to configuration after quagga restarts

This is stupid simple bug with sequence reading of quagga configuration
all versions from 1 - up

so really ?

Why someone want to use software that will not work - do ppl from quagga
are thinking that nobody restarts bgpd process ? rly ? seriously ?

After one restart someone will spend some ttime -> will find or fill not
find where is the problem - downgrade or install bird or frr.


I'm not quagga ennemy - i like quagga - but really with bugs that need
some serious debugging quagga can count only time to end.



W dniu 2017-08-28 o 22:00, Alexis Rosen pisze:
> On Aug 28, 2017, at 8:26 AM, Muenz, Michael <m.muenz@spam-fetish.org> wrote:
>> Am 28.08.2017 um 08:41 schrieb Raghunath Nama:
>>> For new users would it be better to start off with FRR or Quagga?
>>> I understand for existing users of Quagga they might have a choice either to stay with Quagga or move on to FRR.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance
>> I think new users should stay with Quagga.
>> Supported by most distros and almost every feature included.
>> And if you need a feature only in FRR you'll not be a "new user".
> We're pretty heavily invested in Quagga, and unfortunately, it has had some serious issues over the last few releases that have not been addressed. Most obviously, the BGP issue that has been reported time and time again in this list, that appeared after 0.99.24.1, stands to this day in 1.2.1. I would not at this time be willing to risk a new deployment on the current release.
>
> I'm also very concerned that there is no future in Quagga because all the developer momentum has moved over to FRR. I wish this weren't the case, because I would like to see a successful project not dominated by a single commercial company (no matter how good a job they're doing). I also think that Paul was the victim of some pretty rough politics. But it is what it is, and right now (and likely for the foreseeable future), all the progress is on the FRR side.
>
> /a
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> Quagga-users@lists.quagga.net
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On Mon, 28 Aug 2017, Alexis Rosen wrote:

> We're pretty heavily invested in Quagga, and unfortunately, it has had
> some serious issues over the last few releases that have not been
> addressed. Most obviously, the BGP issue that has been reported time
> and time again in this list, that appeared after 0.99.24.1, stands to
> this day in 1.2.1. I would not at this time be willing to risk a new
> deployment on the current release.

It's likely an FRRers bug, annoyingly. Also, whichever commit it is,
probably easily reversable / not important.

If you can trigger it reliably, please step through the commits and
identify the breaking one. The bug report already lists one suspect
commit ID.

> I'm also very concerned that there is no future in Quagga because all
> the developer momentum

Well, those who are concerned should then try avoid that future, by
working on Quagga, if they can. The only conditions are:

- The project must serve a wide range of interests, and be resistant to
capture (e.g. by well resourced interests, who can pay off other
participants).

To my thinking, that means the top-level/last-resort governance must
be by consensus, weighted towards some longer-standing interests (the
latter is something that is normal in almost every social system I can
think of that has any degree of order). Even if day-day matters are
handled by other means, such as technical commitees. Benevolent
dictator works for some other projects, but it's hard to reliably
replicate.

If people have better ideas, they are free to /persuade/ others
involved of the merit of them.

- The project must be conservative about legal risks, and do its best to
serve the interests of _ALL_ copyright holders.

- People should deal with each other fairly and straight-forwardly.

?2.7.5 of the ZeroMQ 4C has some very good language on this:

https://rfc.zeromq.org/spec:42/C4/

Anyone who wants to work on Quagga on those terms will be welcomed and
given whatever access they need.

regards,
--
Paul Jakma | paul@jakma.org | @pjakma | Key ID: 0xD86BF79464A2FF6A
Fortune:
If it smells it's chemistry, if it crawls it's biology, if it doesn't work
it's physics.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017, Pawe? Staszewski wrote:

> But if Quagga want to be seriously - then why some simple stupid bugs exists
> ?

The short answer is that a number of corporates in the networking world
do not want anyone working on Quagga.

Me, I'm off to lick my wounds.

regards,
--
Paul Jakma | paul@jakma.org | @pjakma | Key ID: 0xD86BF79464A2FF6A
Fortune:
Order and simplification are the first steps toward mastery of a subject
-- the actual enemy is the unknown.
-- Thomas Mann

With the bgp bug (and other issues) I’m certainly happy to help / work on fixing this as needed. As well as other work

I do have a c background but not yet a knowledge of quagga itself. If someone is willing to help me get started I’m certainly happy to support the project moving forward.

I’ve used quagga for some time and I have s fair bit of loyalty to it if the issues I mentioned on the list earlier can be resolved.

Richard Palmer | Director | Merula Limited
Company Registered in England and Wales No. 3243995
5 Avro Court, Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire, PE29 6XS
Phone 01480 222940 | Support 0845 330 0666
Support Email support@merula.net

> On 28 Aug 2017, at 21:40, Paul Jakma <paul@jakma.org> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 28 Aug 2017, Alexis Rosen wrote:
>>
>> We're pretty heavily invested in Quagga, and unfortunately, it has had some serious issues over the last few releases that have not been addressed. Most obviously, the BGP issue that has been reported time and time again in this list, that appeared after 0.99.24.1, stands to this day in 1.2.1. I would not at this time be willing to risk a new deployment on the current release.
>
> It's likely an FRRers bug, annoyingly. Also, whichever commit it is, probably easily reversable / not important.
>
> If you can trigger it reliably, please step through the commits and identify the breaking one. The bug report already lists one suspect commit ID.
>
>> I'm also very concerned that there is no future in Quagga because all the developer momentum
>
> Well, those who are concerned should then try avoid that future, by working on Quagga, if they can. The only conditions are:
>
> - The project must serve a wide range of interests, and be resistant to
> capture (e.g. by well resourced interests, who can pay off other
> participants).
>
> To my thinking, that means the top-level/last-resort governance must
> be by consensus, weighted towards some longer-standing interests (the
> latter is something that is normal in almost every social system I can
> think of that has any degree of order). Even if day-day matters are
> handled by other means, such as technical commitees. Benevolent
> dictator works for some other projects, but it's hard to reliably
> replicate.
>
> If people have better ideas, they are free to /persuade/ others
> involved of the merit of them.
>
> - The project must be conservative about legal risks, and do its best to
> serve the interests of _ALL_ copyright holders.
>
> - People should deal with each other fairly and straight-forwardly.
>
> §2.7.5 of the ZeroMQ 4C has some very good language on this:
>
> https://rfc.zeromq.org/spec:42/C4/
>
> Anyone who wants to work on Quagga on those terms will be welcomed and given whatever access they need.
>
> regards,
> --
> Paul Jakma | paul@jakma.org | @pjakma | Key ID: 0xD86BF79464A2FF6A
> Fortune:
> If it smells it's chemistry, if it crawls it's biology, if it doesn't work
> it's physics.
> _______________________________________________
> Quagga-users mailing list
> Quagga-users@lists.quagga.net
> https://lists.quagga.net/mailman/listinfo/quagga-users

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017, Alexis Rosen wrote:

> We're pretty heavily invested in Quagga, and unfortunately, it has had
> some serious issues over the last few releases that have not been
> addressed.

Worth noting, the older ones work as before. ;)

> case, because I would like to see a successful project not dominated
> by a single commercial company

Oh...

Quagga has lasting power beyond any given corporate. They come and go,
they should never be relied on too much. Things wax and wane, and will
wax again. It's a long game.

FWIW, though I'd want you to keep investing in Quagga, particularly in
supporting development, you also have other options for
operator-orientated and/or vendor-neutral routing software.

BIRD and OpenBGPd/OpenOSPFd in particular.

BIRD, if I understand correctly, is sustained by an operator owned body.
OpenBGPd/OpenOSPFd are also sustained via support gathered from a wide,
user support base. Both are good projects to support (be nice if there
was a portable OpenBGPd, an OpenOpenBGPd project I guess). I've
benchmarked BIRD myself, and it's fast. I gather OpenBGPd is too, though
I havn't tried it much myself.

Things are much better today for operators, with regard to routing
stacks, than 13+ years ago.

regards,
--
Paul Jakma | paul@jakma.org | @pjakma | Key ID: 0xD86BF79464A2FF6A
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A crisis is when you can't say "let's forget the whole thing."
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On 29/08/17 03:17, Kurt Jaeger wrote:
>>> Interesting. Where can we find more about that advice ?
>>
>>> Can you point to some URL where we can read more about that ?
>>
>> I think anyone who's followed this list the last couple of years will
>> know what it's about.
>
> I subscribed around February 2013, and I'm at loss right now.
>
>> This issue was the seed of the crystalisation for all the other stuff
>> that went on.
>
> Additional pointers might help to understand this issue.
Some quick searching suggests it's the inclusion of babeld without GPL
headers.

https://lists.quagga.net/pipermail/quagga-users/2012-March/012846.html

--
James Andrewartha
Network & Projects Engineer
Christ Church Grammar School
Claremont, Western Australia
Ph. (08) 9442 1757
Mob. 0424 160 877
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On 28/08/17 22:57, Richard Palmer wrote:
> With the bgp bug (and other issues) I’m certainly happy to help / work
> on fixing this as needed. As well as other work
>
> I do have a c background but not yet a knowledge of quagga itself. If
> someone is willing to help me get started I’m certainly happy to
> support the project moving forward.
>
> I’ve used quagga for some time and I have s fair bit of loyalty to it
> if the issues I mentioned on the list earlier can be resolved.

I've used quagga for a number of years for OSPF on IPv4.

And I've just started using quagga for BGP and OSPF for on IPv6. On
debian, as a mulithomed router.

There's a few things I've found recently which don't work. I'm not sure
whether IPv6 bugs, or config things. I've somebody who says they will
look at my config.

In the first case, I was trying to work out how to submit patches for
the documentation. Because I worked a few things out for myself that
make no sense when you read the docs. And I thought of some example
configs that might help others.

Reading the http://www.nongnu.org/quagga/devel.html and
http://www.nongnu.org/quagga/docs/HACKING.html just made my brain hurt.

I guess I should just do it. Get on, put the patches on a public git
somewhere and get on the dev list.

I guess I should also make a good set of debian packages for the newer
Quagga so I can swap and change versions more easily.



Tim
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On Tue, 29 Aug 2017, Tim Bray wrote:

> Reading the http://www.nongnu.org/quagga/devel.html and
> http://www.nongnu.org/quagga/docs/HACKING.html just made my brain
> hurt.

Doc updates would definitely be apreciated.

> I guess I should just do it. Get on, put the patches on a public git
> somewhere and get on the dev list.

Cool.

Project hosted git repos will be resurrected soon. Just want to see if
there's a nice UI to get working around it.

regards,
--
Paul Jakma | paul@jakma.org | @pjakma | Key ID: 0xD86BF79464A2FF6A
Fortune:
Lowery's Law:
If it jams -- force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway.
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