Mailing List Archive

Gordon McMillan writes:
> Nah, it's because a zip file is (conceptually) a tar of a bunch of
> gzips, while a tgz is a gzip of a tar. Compression ratios get better
> on longer inputs. But "random" access is a lot easier on the former.

Gordon,
Good point; with the larger files (PDF & PostScript), the files
would be large enough that the difference is trivial, but with lots of
small files, the compression tables have to be rebuilt for each file.
This makes a lot of sense.


-Fred

--
Fred L. Drake, Jr. <fdrake@acm.org>
Corporation for National Research Initiatives

Fred L. Drake wrote:

> ... but be aware that, even with maximal
> compression, the HTML ZIP archive is substantially larger than the
> .tgz equivalent. This is likely caused by the ZIP format having two
> directory entries for each file instead of one; with a lot of small
> files, this can make a difference.

Nah, it's because a zip file is (conceptually) a tar of a bunch of
gzips, while a tgz is a gzip of a tar. Compression ratios get better
on longer inputs. But "random" access is a lot easier on the former.

- Gordon

Fred L. Drake writes:
>
> I've received enough hostile mail from Windows users not
> understanding how to unpack .tgz archives (er, WinZip works for me...)

I think this really means lowering the standards. I wouldn't advocate
using a more efficient (but obscure) standard as bzip2 (at least not
yet), but everybody who is unable to unpack .tar.gz/.tgz archives (you
did include a pointer to WinZip in the documentation, didn't you?) is
perhaps not the right person to read Python documentation anyway.

> that I will be making most of the documentation packages available as
> ZIP archives as well as .tgz archives.

Eugene Leitl writes:
> I think this really means lowering the standards. I wouldn't advocate
> using a more efficient (but obscure) standard as bzip2 (at least not

That would be my preference actually, but it just isn't common
enough yet.

> yet), but everybody who is unable to unpack .tar.gz/.tgz archives (you
> did include a pointer to WinZip in the documentation, didn't you?) is

It's right there on the downloads page! ;-)


-Fred

--
Fred L. Drake, Jr. <fdrake@acm.org>
Corporation for National Research Initiatives

>>>>> ">" == Fred L Drake <fdrake@cnri.reston.va.us> writes:

>> That would be my preference actually, but it just isn't
>> common enough yet.


class IMHO ( $0.02 ):

"""of course, one can ENCOURAGE "common enough" by supplying bzip2
for something popular like documentation and watch your community
GROW acceptance of the new compression standard"""

smile = " :-) "

def __init__(self, agree_wth_me):

if agree_with_me == YEP:
os.system('tar cvf dem_docs dem_docs.tar.bz2 --use_compress-program=bzip2')

print self.__doc__

print smile

print "Les Schaffer godzilla@netmeg.net"

raise " WARNING: it must be friday afternoon!!! "

>>>>> "EL" == Eugene Leitl <eugene.leitl@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> writes:

EL> I think this really means lowering the standards. I wouldn't
EL> advocate using a more efficient (but obscure) standard as bzip2
EL> (at least not yet), but everybody who is unable to unpack
EL> .tar.gz/.tgz archives (you did include a pointer to WinZip in
EL> the documentation, didn't you?) is perhaps not the right person
EL> to read Python documentation anyway.

(I hope you forgot a <wink> somewhere.)

There is no reason for snobbery. If some people prefer Zip archives
to gzipped tar files, we should accomodate them. Python is a good
programming language for everyone, not just people who haved wasted
time and effort to learn about various obscure packaging details.

Jeremy

Les Schaffer writes:
> raise " WARNING: it must be friday afternoon!!! "


Oh, most definately! ;-)


-Fred

--
Fred L. Drake, Jr. <fdrake@acm.org>
Corporation for National Research Initiatives

Fred L. Drake wrote in message
<14232.40613.53508.888049@weyr.cnri.reston.va.us>...
>
> I've received enough hostile mail from Windows users not
>understanding how to unpack .tgz archives (er, WinZip works for me...)
>that I will be making most of the documentation packages available as
>ZIP archives as well as .tgz archives.
This is really sad. You're not really doing Windows users any favors by
doing this.
"tar" and "gzip" are "must know" tools.
Let me quote from the GNU macs on Windows FAQ

"You can find precompiled versions of all of the compression and archive
utilities in ftp.cs.washington.edu/pub/ntemacs/utilities/. "

It would seem to make more sense to include gzip and tar.on the web site.

Les Schaffer writes:

> class IMHO ( $0.02 ):
>
> """of course, one can ENCOURAGE "common enough" by supplying bzip2
> for something popular like documentation and watch your community
> GROW acceptance of the new compression standard"""
>
> smile = " :-) "
>
> def __init__(self, agree_wth_me):
>
> if agree_with_me == YEP:
> os.system('tar cvf dem_docs dem_docs.tar.bz2 --use_compress-program=bzip2')
>
> print self.__doc__
>
> print smile
>
> print "Les Schaffer godzilla@netmeg.net"
>
> raise " WARNING: it must be friday afternoon!!! "
>

I agree with you. But shouldn't that be "print self.smile" ? I got a
NameError when I tried to run your code ;-)

But seriously, this is a mistake I've seen a lot of people make with
class variables, just want to make sure we don't spread around any
misconceptions.

David Robinow wrote:
> Fred L. Drake wrote in message
> <14232.40613.53508.888049@weyr.cnri.reston.va.us>...
> >
> > I've received enough hostile mail from Windows users not
> >understanding how to unpack .tgz archives (er, WinZip works for me...)
> >that I will be making most of the documentation packages available as
> >ZIP archives as well as .tgz archives.
> This is really sad. You're not really doing Windows users any
> favors by
> doing this.

No, he's doing himself a favor. So far, his only mistake is in
announcing this.

Fred-you-worthless-slut-<wink/counterwink>-ly y'rs

- Gordon

> I agree with you. But shouldn't that be "print self.smile" ? I got
> a NameError when I tried to run your code ;-)

damn, i cant even tell a joke without screwing up the punchline!


> But seriously, this is a mistake I've seen a lot of people make with
> class variables, just want to make sure we don't spread around any
> misconceptions.

unfortunately, i didnt -- ahem -- test the class before posting. shame
on me.

actually, i thought the interpreter would crash on the '$' in $0.02. i
figured the dollar sign wouldnt have been allowed. shows ya what i
know.

happy weekend everyone!

les

--
____ Les Schaffer ___| --->> Engineering R&D <<---
Theoretical & Applied Mechanics | Designspring, Inc.
Center for Radiophysics & Space Research | http://www.designspring.com/
Cornell Univ. schaffer@tam.cornell.edu | les@designspring.com

In message <7nal1u$6cb$1@tribune.oar.net>
"David Robinow" <drobinow@dayton.adroit.com> wrote:

[Fred L. Drake]
>> I've received enough hostile mail from Windows users not understanding
>> how to unpack .tgz archives (er, WinZip works for me...) that I will be
>> making most of the documentation packages available as ZIP archives as
>> well as .tgz archives.
> This is really sad. You're not really doing Windows users any favors by
> doing this. "tar" and "gzip" are "must know" tools.
> Let me quote from the GNU macs on Windows FAQ
>
> "You can find precompiled versions of all of the compression and archive
> utilities in ftp.cs.washington.edu/pub/ntemacs/utilities/. "
>
> It would seem to make more sense to include gzip and tar.on the web site.

Sad or not, the simple truth is that many authors who distribute Python
programs (that tend to run on many platforms) as .tar.gz seem to end up with
full inboxes of "I can't decompress this" messages. And, in my experience,
not all of them are from Windows users. Ultimately, the simplest and most
effective solution seems to be to ship .tar.gz files for those who want
quick downloads, and .zip files for people who don't.

Admittedly, as a non-Windows user, WinZip has always worked when I've tried
it on .tar.gz files, but maybe I'm not using it correctly <wink>.

If you want to preach the benefits of .tar.gz I'd reccomend preaching about
.tar.bz2... And that way you can try educating lots of Unix users as well as
the Windows gang <wink>.


Laurie
--
http://eh.org/~laurie/comp/python/

Laurence Tratt writes:

...
> Admittedly, as a non-Windows user, WinZip has always worked when
> I've tried it on .tar.gz files, but maybe I'm not using it correctly
> <wink>.

Most likely, you're not downloading properly <wink>. You're supposed
to use a browser, and let it choose a sensible name like
RockyAndBullWinkle_tar.gz.

> If you want to preach the benefits of .tar.gz I'd reccomend
> preaching about .tar.bz2... And that way you can try educating lots
> of Unix users as well as the Windows gang <wink>.

Tee hee. Use it on my Linux box. Someone pointed me to a Windows
port. The readme says "can't run in a 16 bit subsystem", but the port
*is* an MSDOS executable (not a 32 bit console executable). It did
manage to decompress, but mangled file names beyond recognition.

- Gordon

Gordon McMillan wrote:

> Most likely, you're not downloading properly <wink>. You're supposed
> to use a browser, and let it choose a sensible name like
> RockyAndBullWinkle_tar.gz.
>
> > If you want to preach the benefits of .tar.gz I'd reccomend
> > preaching about .tar.bz2... And that way you can try educating lots
> > of Unix users as well as the Windows gang <wink>.
>
> Tee hee. Use it on my Linux box. Someone pointed me to a Windows
> port. The readme says "can't run in a 16 bit subsystem", but the port
> *is* an MSDOS executable (not a 32 bit console executable). It did
> manage to decompress, but mangled file names beyond recognition.

There is nothing better is that case than to have a choice. Even
ftp://ftp.kernel.*.org present both .gz and .bz2. My experience is that
bzip2 is extremely good for text files, but for some sorts of binary
files (thousands of double's written by a Fortran program) bzip2 is even
worse than zip. I even planned to send such a package to the maintainer
of bzip2, but got too lazy...

Alexander

David Robinow wrote in message <7nal1u$6cb$1@tribune.oar.net>...

> This is really sad. You're not really doing Windows users any favors by
>doing this.
>"tar" and "gzip" are "must know" tools.
>Let me quote from the GNU macs on Windows FAQ

ROFL!!!

Let me guess - not only do you not use Windows, you don't know anyone who
does?

Mark.