Mailing List Archive

> On 14 May 2023, at 16:32, Grizzy Adams via Python-list <python-list@python.org> wrote:
>
> ?Hi All
>
> My first post (repeated)
>
> I am having a problem with PythonPath / sys.path
>
> I have a dir where I keep all my current work, but I can't seem to add it to
> PythonPath / sys.path
>
> When I try to import one of my modules I see
>
>>>> import My_Working_File
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> File "<pyshell#0>", line 1, in <module>
> import My_Working_File
> ImportError: No module named 'My_Working_File'
>
> I have tried adding my dir in registry to the existing PythonPath
>
> [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Python\PythonCore\3.4\PythonPath]
> @="D:\\Shades\\Tools\\Python\\Lib;D:\\Shades\\Tools\\Python\\DLLs"
>
> that did not help,
>
> I tried adding PYTHONPATH as an enviramental variable, that also had no effect
>
> (I did re-boot after these two tests)
>
> If I go to the editor window and run (F5) any of my modules then I can
>
>>>> ================================ RESTART ================================
>>>>
>>>> import My_Working_File
>>>>
>
> without error
>
> I can also (from a fresh start)
>
>>>> import sys
>>>> sys.path.append(r'D:\Shades\Tools\Python\MyWork')
>>>> print(sys.path)
> [.'', 'D:\\Shades\\Tools\\Python\\Lib\\idlelib',
> 'D:\\Shades\\Tools\\Python\\python34.zip', 'D:\\Shades\\Tools\\Python\\DLLs',
> 'D:\\Shades\\Tools\\Python\\lib', 'D:\\Shades\\Tools\\Python',
> 'D:\\Shades\\Tools\\Python\\lib\\site-packages',
> 'D:\\Shades\\Tools\\Python\\MyWork']
>>>> import My_Working_File
>>>>
>
> I don't really want to go this route every time I start work, and more to the
> point I will need (to learn how) to add dir's to the path at times
>
> I did search the net for an answer but only got what I had already tried
>
> any pointers what I'm doing wrong (other than using windows '->)

I take it you have business reasons to use an obsolete version python.
Where did you get your version of python from?

You seem to be doing the right thing with setting an environment variable.
Useless shades is an app that embeds python.

Try starting cmd.exe and using the set command to liat all of the environment.
Do you see your PYTHONPATH variable?
Does it contain what you expect?
If it does start python and check that sys.path has your folder in it.
Also check what is on os.environ dirctionary.

Barry
>
> Grizz
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>

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On 5/14/23 10:43, Barry wrote:

> I take it you have business reasons to use an obsolete version python.
> Where did you get your version of python from?

In fact, a *nine* year old version of Python that reached end-of-life
four years ago.

Just sayin'

Python version shouldn't have anything to do with the sys.path, though.


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Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 11:11, Mats Wichmann wrote:
Re: PythonPath / sys.path (at least in part)

>On 5/14/23 10:43, Barry wrote:

>> I take it you have business reasons to use an obsolete version python.
>> Where did you get your version of python from?

>In fact, a *nine* year old version of Python that reached end-of-life
>four years ago.

>Just sayin'

>Python version shouldn't have anything to do with the sys.path, though.

I must have slept a while

Python 3.4.10 (default, Jul 14 2019, 14:41:03) [MSC v.1600 32 bit (Intel)] on
win32

Actually I did have 3..4.3 when I asked the question (first time) because I
could only find 3.4.10 as src and did not feel I was able to compile it with
any certainty ;->)

I have since moved up (a little) so only ~4 years old, I then updated pip from
9.x to 19.1

reason its an old version is it's an old PC (XpPro), if I start to get passable

at this I will try it on my Ubuntu box which is running 22.04 (latest LTS) and
23.04, (23.10 daily builds soon) I took a look and it seems I "may" have to
play a little to get IDLE on (if it's not in the normal repo's)

I seem to have managed to sort "PythonPath / sys.path" the environment variable

is working, so I can now import my_work without any other hassle, which is
good, now I find that some of the files which worked a treat from GUI, Editor
(F5) or terminal but don't do the same once saved and imported later, I'm sure
it's me, I have come from VB/VBA, Delphi and a (very) little C++, and am still
working through the python tutorial, trying not to skip ahead (ok I did skip
"Hello World" :->) so I may end up asking some (senior moment) newbie
questions, I will try hard to work it out myself first

Thanks to all who got me thus far

Grizz
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On 5/14/23 13:00, Grizzy Adams via Python-list wrote:
> Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 11:11, Mats Wichmann wrote:
> Re: PythonPath / sys.path (at least in part)
>
>> On 5/14/23 10:43, Barry wrote:
>
>>> I take it you have business reasons to use an obsolete version python.
>>> Where did you get your version of python from?
>
>> In fact, a *nine* year old version of Python that reached end-of-life
>> four years ago.
>
>> Just sayin'
>
>> Python version shouldn't have anything to do with the sys.path, though.
>
> I must have slept a while
>
> Python 3.4.10 (default, Jul 14 2019, 14:41:03) [MSC v.1600 32 bit (Intel)] on
> win32
>
> Actually I did have 3..4.3 when I asked the question (first time) because I
> could only find 3.4.10 as src and did not feel I was able to compile it with
> any certainty ;->)
>
> I have since moved up (a little) so only ~4 years old, I then updated pip from
> 9.x to 19.1
>
> reason its an old version is it's an old PC (XpPro), if I start to get passable

yes, it's true that 3.4 was the last release supported on XP, so that's
a pretty good reason (of course we can ask why still running XP, but I
do understand old machines...)

> at this I will try it on my Ubuntu box which is running 22.04 (latest LTS) and
> 23.04, (23.10 daily builds soon) I took a look and it seems I "may" have to
> play a little to get IDLE on (if it's not in the normal repo's)

IDLE is still supported, you shouldn't have any trouble getting it.

https://packages.ubuntu.com/lunar/idle


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On 5/13/23, Grizzy Adams via Python-list <python-list@python.org> wrote:
>
> I have tried adding my dir in registry to the existing PythonPath
>
> [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Python\PythonCore\3.4\PythonPath]
> @="D:\\Shades\\Tools\\Python\\Lib;D:\\Shades\\Tools\\Python\\DLLs"
>
> that did not help,

The default value of the above registry key is only used if Python
can't calculate the default sys.path based on searching for "os.py",
the landmark module in the standard library. This can happen sometimes
when Python is embedded or run from a symlink.

The default value of each subkey of
"[HKCU|HKLM]\Software\Python\PythonCore\<version>\PythonPath", on the
other hand, usually does extend sys.path. Except that running Python
with the -E or -I command-line options (both supported by Python 3.4)
makes the interpreter ignore PYTHON* environment variables, including
PYTHONPATH, as well as registry settings such as subkeys of
"PythonPath".

Even with the -E or -I command-line options, .pth files in the system
site-packages are still processed. A .pth file can be used to extend
sys.path as long as the site module is imported, i.e. as long as the
-S command-line option isn't used. One difference, however, is that
directories in .pth files are appended to sys.path and thus do not
override the standard library.
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On 5/14/2023 3:00 PM, Grizzy Adams via Python-list wrote:
> Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 11:11, Mats Wichmann wrote:
> Re: PythonPath / sys.path (at least in part)
[snip]
> I have since moved up (a little) so only ~4 years old, I then updated pip from
> 9.x to 19.1
>
> reason its an old version is it's an old PC (XpPro), if I start to get passable
>
> at this I will try it on my Ubuntu box which is running 22.04 (latest LTS) and
> 23.04, (23.10 daily builds soon) I took a look and it seems I "may" have to
> play a little to get IDLE on (if it's not in the normal repo's)
>
> I seem to have managed to sort "PythonPath / sys.path" the environment variable
>
> is working, so I can now import my_work without any other hassle, which is
> good, now I find that some of the files which worked a treat from GUI, Editor
> (F5) or terminal but don't do the same once saved and imported later, I'm sure
> it's me, I have come from VB/VBA, Delphi and a (very) little C++, and am still
> working through the python tutorial, trying not to skip ahead (ok I did skip
> "Hello World" :->) so I may end up asking some (senior moment) newbie
> questions, I will try hard to work it out myself first
>
> Thanks to all who got me thus far

Good to hear you can run your program. For future reference, when you
talked about setting PYTHONPATH, it would have been helpful to know just
what you did when you tried to set it.

If you plan to use this directory location much of the time, two good
ways to do so are 1) putting that path in a .pth file in the
site-packages directory, or 2) launching Python using a batch file that
sets PYTHONPATH first, then runs Python. On Windows, in a batch file
you should use SETLOCAL before setting PYTHONPATH and ENDLOCAL at the
end of the batch file. That's the easiest way to remove the PYTHONPATH
variable after you are done with it.

You made a little slam against Windows, but you will find it harder to
get things working on Linux. Ubuntu, like many other Linux distros,
does not come with pip and Tk (needed for Idle) installed, and it's not
so obvious how to install them.

For your old computer, I added an external 1TB solid state drive (Note:
not a usb stick) to a decade-old Sony VAIO and installed Linux Mint to
the SSD. It's got pretty decent responsiveness and all the old hardware
is supported out of the box.

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On Mon, 15 May 2023 at 09:22, Thomas Passin <list1@tompassin.net> wrote:
> You made a little slam against Windows, but you will find it harder to
> get things working on Linux. Ubuntu, like many other Linux distros,
> does not come with pip and Tk (needed for Idle) installed, and it's not
> so obvious how to install them.

The assumption on Linux is usually that you know how to use your
system's package manager. And on Debian and Ubuntu specifically, it's
about as easy as you would want: "apt install idle". That'll pull in
everything you should need. I don't know about other distros but I
would expect that it's approximately as easy.

Maybe that's not obvious if you come from Windows, but I'd guess that
most desktop Linux users will have at least a passing familiarity with
their package manager, making this a perfectly obvious way to get new
software.

ChrisA
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On 5/14/2023 7:28 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, 15 May 2023 at 09:22, Thomas Passin <list1@tompassin.net> wrote:
>> You made a little slam against Windows, but you will find it harder to
>> get things working on Linux. Ubuntu, like many other Linux distros,
>> does not come with pip and Tk (needed for Idle) installed, and it's not
>> so obvious how to install them.
>
> The assumption on Linux is usually that you know how to use your
> system's package manager. And on Debian and Ubuntu specifically, it's
> about as easy as you would want: "apt install idle". That'll pull in
> everything you should need. I don't know about other distros but I
> would expect that it's approximately as easy.
>
> Maybe that's not obvious if you come from Windows, but I'd guess that
> most desktop Linux users will have at least a passing familiarity with
> their package manager, making this a perfectly obvious way to get new
> software.

Well, no, why would you assume that? I started to use Linux - in VMs -
because I had to make sure that my cross-platform java/jython Tomcat
program would work right on Linux. Why, for example, would I think to
install Idle from the package manager when it, or things like that, were
always in my experience installed with pip? For that matter, "sudo
apt-get install pip" won't install pip. You need to use a different
name, and it may or may not be different for different distros.

No, I came to use Linux they way I said, but I didn't find those things
to be obvious. That's why I've started mentioning them on this list
when it seems like they might be useful.

Furthermore, people have been having trouble getting certain PyQt
programs working on Ubuntu 22.04 (and 20.xx before it) (yes, I know, not
what the OP asked about). The solution is pretty non-obvious and
requires a particular .so library file to be installed, if you can
discover which one and how to do that. I mention this in support of
what I said about a Windows Python user being likely to find things
harder, not easier, on Linux.

And please, let's not start a flame war about this! I'm passing on what
I've experienced, that's all. Yes, I know that there are some Python
packages that need to be built and that usually works better on Linux.
And I'll agree that some Python programs are snappier to load and run on
Linux than on the same machine running Windows, even in a Linux VM guest.

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On Mon, 15 May 2023 at 12:07, Thomas Passin <list1@tompassin.net> wrote:
> Well, no, why would you assume that? I started to use Linux - in VMs -
> because I had to make sure that my cross-platform java/jython Tomcat
> program would work right on Linux. Why, for example, would I think to
> install Idle from the package manager when it, or things like that, were
> always in my experience installed with pip? For that matter, "sudo
> apt-get install pip" won't install pip. You need to use a different
> name, and it may or may not be different for different distros.

If you EVER had to install something other than a Python package, you
would have had to make use of the system package manager. You're
right, there are multiple obvious ways to install Idle, but that
doesn't mean that the package manager isn't one of them.

ChrisA
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On 5/14/2023 11:08 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, 15 May 2023 at 12:07, Thomas Passin <list1@tompassin.net> wrote:
>> Well, no, why would you assume that? I started to use Linux - in VMs -
>> because I had to make sure that my cross-platform java/jython Tomcat
>> program would work right on Linux. Why, for example, would I think to
>> install Idle from the package manager when it, or things like that, were
>> always in my experience installed with pip? For that matter, "sudo
>> apt-get install pip" won't install pip. You need to use a different
>> name, and it may or may not be different for different distros.
>
> If you EVER had to install something other than a Python package, you
> would have had to make use of the system package manager. You're
> right, there are multiple obvious ways to install Idle, but that
> doesn't mean that the package manager isn't one of them.

Yes, after a while I came to realize that missing Python pieces might be
available from the package manager. That doesn't mean it's obvious, or
easy to discover just what names to use. And sometimes one has to add a
new external repository. Personally, I don't find it easy to scroll
through hundreds of lines in the synaptics search results looking for
something whose name I can only partly guess at. If I know the command
line equivalent for a search, I could do a grep and that would probably
be more focused. But trying to work with a dozen different distros
because various clients might use them - it's hard to keep details straight.

Anyway, there's no point in trying to convince me that I could have
understood everything at the start that I may have learned later. I'm
just interested in passing on things I've learned along that way that a
newcomer to Python in Linux may not realize.

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> On 15 May 2023, at 05:39, Thomas Passin <list1@tompassin.net> wrote:
>
> ?On 5/14/2023 11:08 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> On Mon, 15 May 2023 at 12:07, Thomas Passin <list1@tompassin.net> wrote:
>>> Well, no, why would you assume that? I started to use Linux - in VMs -
>>> because I had to make sure that my cross-platform java/jython Tomcat
>>> program would work right on Linux. Why, for example, would I think to
>>> install Idle from the package manager when it, or things like that, were
>>> always in my experience installed with pip? For that matter, "sudo
>>> apt-get install pip" won't install pip. You need to use a different
>>> name, and it may or may not be different for different distros.
>> If you EVER had to install something other than a Python package, you
>> would have had to make use of the system package manager. You're
>> right, there are multiple obvious ways to install Idle, but that
>> doesn't mean that the package manager isn't one of them.
>
> Yes, after a while I came to realize that missing Python pieces might be available from the package manager. That doesn't mean it's obvious, or easy to discover just what names to use. And sometimes one has to add a new external repository. Personally, I don't find it easy to scroll through hundreds of lines in the synaptics search results looking for something whose name I can only partly guess at. If I know the command line equivalent for a search, I could do a grep and that would probably be more focused. But trying to work with a dozen different distros because various clients might use them - it's hard to keep details straight.
>
> Anyway, there's no point in trying to convince me that I could have understood everything at the start that I may have learned later. I'm just interested in passing on things I've learned along that way that a newcomer to Python in Linux may not realize.

Being a Fedora user i needed to learn how to install missing pieces of pyrhon on ubuntu.

We searches for:
ubuntu install pip
Ubuntu install idle

Both provide lots of answers. Did your searches fail to turn up answers?

Barry


>
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On Mon, 15 May 2023 at 14:38, Thomas Passin <list1@tompassin.net> wrote:
>
> On 5/14/2023 11:08 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Mon, 15 May 2023 at 12:07, Thomas Passin <list1@tompassin.net> wrote:
> >> Well, no, why would you assume that? I started to use Linux - in VMs -
> >> because I had to make sure that my cross-platform java/jython Tomcat
> >> program would work right on Linux. Why, for example, would I think to
> >> install Idle from the package manager when it, or things like that, were
> >> always in my experience installed with pip? For that matter, "sudo
> >> apt-get install pip" won't install pip. You need to use a different
> >> name, and it may or may not be different for different distros.
> >
> > If you EVER had to install something other than a Python package, you
> > would have had to make use of the system package manager. You're
> > right, there are multiple obvious ways to install Idle, but that
> > doesn't mean that the package manager isn't one of them.
>
> Yes, after a while I came to realize that missing Python pieces might be
> available from the package manager. That doesn't mean it's obvious, or
> easy to discover just what names to use.

Define "obvious". Nothing is completely intuitive, and at some point,
you HAVE to learn things. With any modern GUI desktop system, I am
going to assume that "click on the thing" counts as obvious, even
though it, like everything else, has to be learned. Once it's been the
exact same UI for everything so far, wouldn't it count as obvious?

Use your package manager.

> And sometimes one has to add a
> new external repository.

Why? When do you need to? Use the system package manager and the core
repositories.

> Personally, I don't find it easy to scroll
> through hundreds of lines in the synaptics search results looking for
> something whose name I can only partly guess at.

I don't use Synaptic, so I have no idea what the problem is here, but
there are really only a couple of plausible package names:

1) idle
2) python-idle

It's possible you'll need to install idle3 or python3-idle to get the
latest, but if so, one of the above names would have installed Idle
from Python 2.7.

This is a matter of learning patterns, which most humans are good at.
But even if you haven't yet, your absolute worst case is a
straight-forward search ("apt-cache search idle", "apt search idle",
or using a GUI tool to search). Assuming you haven't added every
repository you can find, in a wild attempt to worsen your computer's
stability and security, this should produce roughly a hundred results
(I got 123 on my search), many of which are clearly not what you want.
This is really not that many to skim over.

> If I know the command
> line equivalent for a search, I could do a grep and that would probably
> be more focused.

Did you try searching the web for "apt search for package" or anything
like that? The command is "apt search" or "apt-cache search" (they're
slightly different in output but they'll give broadly the same info)
and this information is easily found on the internet.

> But trying to work with a dozen different distros
> because various clients might use them - it's hard to keep details straight.

Okay, that's fair. You should only have to work with a small number of
package managers, but the more different the distros are, the less
effective you'll be at intuitively guessing the package names. But you
should still be able to search.

> Anyway, there's no point in trying to convince me that I could have
> understood everything at the start that I may have learned later. I'm
> just interested in passing on things I've learned along that way that a
> newcomer to Python in Linux may not realize.

I'm not saying you should have understood everything at the start; but
I am saying that all the answers are out there if you look for them.
Making blanket statements like:

> Ubuntu, like many other Linux distros,
> does not come with pip and Tk (needed for Idle) installed, and it's not
> so obvious how to install them.

are *EXTREMELY* unfair, since you are naming a single distro and then
blaming "many other" distros by association, giving the highly false
impression that Linux is nearly impossible to use.

It is, in fact, very easy to install these things on many Linux
distros. You just have to be willing to get to know your own system
(since most people are only running one distro).

ChrisA
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On 5/15/2023 3:26 AM, Barry wrote:
>
>
>> On 15 May 2023, at 05:39, Thomas Passin <list1@tompassin.net> wrote:
>>
>> ?On 5/14/2023 11:08 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 15 May 2023 at 12:07, Thomas Passin <list1@tompassin.net> wrote:
>>>> Well, no, why would you assume that? I started to use Linux - in VMs -
>>>> because I had to make sure that my cross-platform java/jython Tomcat
>>>> program would work right on Linux. Why, for example, would I think to
>>>> install Idle from the package manager when it, or things like that, were
>>>> always in my experience installed with pip? For that matter, "sudo
>>>> apt-get install pip" won't install pip. You need to use a different
>>>> name, and it may or may not be different for different distros.
>>> If you EVER had to install something other than a Python package, you
>>> would have had to make use of the system package manager. You're
>>> right, there are multiple obvious ways to install Idle, but that
>>> doesn't mean that the package manager isn't one of them.
>>
>> Yes, after a while I came to realize that missing Python pieces might be available from the package manager. That doesn't mean it's obvious, or easy to discover just what names to use. And sometimes one has to add a new external repository. Personally, I don't find it easy to scroll through hundreds of lines in the synaptics search results looking for something whose name I can only partly guess at. If I know the command line equivalent for a search, I could do a grep and that would probably be more focused. But trying to work with a dozen different distros because various clients might use them - it's hard to keep details straight.
>>
>> Anyway, there's no point in trying to convince me that I could have understood everything at the start that I may have learned later. I'm just interested in passing on things I've learned along that way that a newcomer to Python in Linux may not realize.
>
> Being a Fedora user i needed to learn how to install missing pieces of pyrhon on ubuntu.
>
> We searches for:
> ubuntu install pip
> Ubuntu install idle
>
> Both provide lots of answers. Did your searches fail to turn up answers?

No, that's what I had to do too, that and scan through package manager
searches.

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