Mailing List Archive

You called me out here, so I am going to reply. This time on my
own behalf, Darren. I have no hard feelings, you have to make your
decisions. None of this is personal for me and should not be for
anyone else.

You're welcome back at any time. We have a very transparent and
unapologetic operation. We're not perfect, but we are striving for
virtue like all good humans; for me it is important that we work
on humilty and meekness. But perseverence and fortitude are also
very important to me. I also get it, this brand of approach makes
people very uncomfortable and is a threat. If this model proves to
be an effective way to refine Perl, then you can bet it will be
used again by us for other things; and it is my hope, emulated by
others.

If anyone is interested in being part of the Perl::Types Committee
moving forward, please let me know. We have regular meetings and
formal levels of membership depending on interest, intellectual
contributions, and actual time given. Membership works by existing
members "sponsoring" (or vouching for) existing members. Provided
you are sincerely interested in working Perl::Type and benefitting
Perl, I would be very happy to vouch for anyone who is interested
and on P5P at this time. Please send me a direct email if so.

Cheers,
Brett

PS: Certain individuals have provided useful feedback here. We are
currently reading it, and will be preparing a response (yes as a
committee). Please be patience, we are finding it does take time
to work this way. But the fruits of this approach, particularly in
this environment, are already being shown to be good. Please continue
to send your feedback. I would like to say, thousands of lines of
code already have existed for years via RPerl. You will see this
is true by visiting the provided links. It should strike you as
sufficiently real should you take some time to view the unit tests.

* Darren Duncan <darren@darrenduncan.net> [2023-08-19 04:07:29 -0700]:

> On 2023-08-15 9:37 p.m., Oodler 577 via perl5-porters wrote:
> > # Proposed Perl Changes Elevator Pitch for Perl::Types
> > ...
> > Respectfully submitted by the _Perl::Types Committee_:
> > ...
> > * Darren Duncan (DUNCAND)
>
> I want to state for the record that I partially disavow both this proposal
> and this group.
>
> I have also, just before writing this current message, formally departed
> from the group, and asked that my name be removed from its membership list.
>
> I joined the Perl::Types Committee about 1-2 weeks ago, when the current
> incarnation was formed, when Will invited me, because I had a personal
> interest in Perl type systems and felt I could benefit the Perl community
> through participation in the multiple efforts under way, including this one;
> I had likewise also provided feedback to Oshun, and before that Corinna.
>
> I did provide input and feedback during the last 1-2 weeks, which I hope
> will make the Perl::Types effort better for the community.
>
> While I support some aspects of its goals, providing more direct, efficient,
> and strict access to Perl's existing built-in type system for Perl
> developers, I also disagree with other aspects of the initiative, including
> a seeming lack of desire to compromise with others.
>
> While my input to the group seemed to be generally appreciated, some
> proposals that were more compromising in nature and respecting feedback
> given here, were vocally disagreed with.
>
> For example, I proposed using a branded namespace, such as LLPT:: (Low Level
> Perl Types) for all its packages like integer/boolean/string etc to
> expressly avoid conflict with other namespaces.
>
> I decided I don't want my name associated with this endeavor as a whole,
> even if I support some of its goals.
>
> I believe that in principle the alternative Oshun proposal can provide all
> the actually workable features of Perl::Types as a subset of its feature
> set, and do so in a way that goes out of its way to play nice with
> everything else.
>
> Oshun's built-in checks should have a set that correspond to stricter
> definitions of Perl's built-in types; I'm not a stickler for their having
> particular names, just that they are available. But getting into that
> belongs on the Oshun Git discussions where input is generally being taken,
> rather than in this perl5-porters thread.
>
> Also, as far as I know, from the Git change history for the draft version of
> this elevator pitch, Will and Brett are the only ones that actually authored
> it directly, with the rest of our names being on it because we were in the
> group.
>
> I was actually surprised that all the names were on this when it was
> submitted to perl5-porters, I didn't expect that the Committee member list
> was going to be announced, and assumed it was private.
>
> Apparently we had all assented to it though because we saw a review of the
> draft first and didn't object to its content, including the member name
> list.
>
> This is partially my fault though, I had somehow glossed over the fact it
> contained a full member list, so I didn't think to request that the names of
> non-authors be excluded when I had the chance.
>
> Going forward, I request that everyone treat me as if my name had never been
> announced on the Perl::Types Committee member list.
>
> Instead please treat me as my own person with my own interests and opinions,
> which case by case may or may not align with particular individuals.
>
> This says nothing about any relationships I may have with any individuals,
> but just with this Committee as its own entity, and with the current
> elevator pitch.
>
> Thank you.
>
> -- Darren Duncan
>

--
--
oodler@cpan.org
oodler577@sdf-eu.org
SDF-EU Public Access UNIX System - http://sdfeu.org
irc.perl.org #openmp #pdl #native

On Sat, 19 Aug 2023 20:47:36 +0200, Oodler 577 via perl5-porters <perl5-porters@perl.org> wrote:

> * Darren Duncan <darren@darrenduncan.net> [2023-08-19 04:07:29 -0700]:
>
>> I was actually surprised that all the names were on this when it was
>> submitted to perl5-porters, I didn't expect that the Committee member list
>> was going to be announced, and assumed it was private.
>
> We're not perfect, but we are striving for
> virtue like all good humans; for me it is important that we work
> on humilty and meekness. But perseverence and fortitude are also
> very important to me.

Given the surprise expressed by Darren, i recommend to persevere by way of contacting all other people named, gaining express consent, rather than the current assumed consent, and posting an updated list of all those who expressed direct consent.

--
With regards,
Christian Walde

On Sat, Aug 19, 2023 at 8:47?PM Oodler 577 via perl5-porters <
perl5-porters@perl.org> wrote:

> If anyone is interested in being part of the Perl::Types Committee
> moving forward, please let me know. We have regular meetings and
> formal levels of membership depending on interest, intellectual
> contributions, and actual time given. Membership works by existing
> members "sponsoring" (or vouching for) existing members...



And that's the problem. With the Corinna project, I was not a gatekeeper. I
was doorman, welcoming people. There were people who strongly disagreed
with me. It was painful at times, but the end result is far better. But
this strange gatekeeping has precedence and the context is important.

Will Braswell is the chairman of your committee. On his private "Perl
Programmers" group on Facebook, he recently had a meltdown, attacking
prominent members of the Perl community (not the first time he's done
this), shared private conversations without permission, deleted many posts
and replies which called him out on his behavior, and banned discussions of
programming languages he does not approve of, unless it's to attack those
languages. He also banned some people from the group (why I was spared,
when my responses were deleted, is a mystery).

Worse, he continued this in a bizzare "Perl Town Hall" video,
self-proclaiming himself the world's #1 Perl promoter, in a video only
people in his personal group are allowed to see. He continued to attack
people, talking about how they were hurting Perl. The whole thing was very
ugly and many people left the group (note: if anyone joins his group, you
won't see much of this because of Will's mass deletions).

Around the time of Will's meltdown, he arrived in the Oshun project
<https://github.com/orgs/Perl-Apollo/discussions/27>, calling our system
"fake types", suggesting that we were deliberately ignoring his work
(wtf?), and from the video *he linked*, he said this:

"All of the type systems that you will find, except for one, that I
happened to create, that is what this talk is about, are fake in the sense
that they do not actually access the underlying C data types. They're just
some syntax sugar to make you feel cool, or there's something that's maybe
special data types that have been created that are not the actual core data
types in Perl that we're going to teach you about."

He said this while showing a picture of Elon Musk smoking marijuana, with
the words "this type system smells funny." This is setting the stage very
clearly.

And how did I react? I politely called him out on his comments, and then *I
welcomed him*. I expressed a willingness to discuss different ideas, and
after some discussion, I asked three simple questions about his work:

1. Can it be easily disabled if there's a problem?
2. Does it allow "gradual typing"?
3. Can it interoperate with existing Perl code?

Those are not difficult questions, but in case there was confusion, I
explained why I was asking those questions. They have never been answered
and on August 12, I closed the discussion because there was no discussion.
A few days later, you show up on P5P to try to promote Perl::Types, but you
left a few things out.

You have no code. You have no tests (RPerl tests don't count because we're
asking how it works with *Perl*). You have no documentation. You have no
specification.

For a speculative query, none of that is a bad thing. You're exploring
ideas. I get that. But I had three simple questions which were never
answered. I asked them again, and they were still not answered. In digging
through the code, I thought *maybe* I have an answer for the second one.
You finally answered the first one by mentioning it to someone else (thank
you!) and you still have not answered that third question.

Given that "RPerl" is a thing that's been around for a while, I would
imagine that having the creator of RPerl handy would make it easy to answer
those questions. You don't need a committee to answer them. So either you
can't answer them, or you won't answer them. Neither of those is good.

Wow. Darren's email was not an invitation for this garbage. Some
of you really can't help yourselves. I replied because I was named
directly; Will is not on this list (for good reason!); neither
Christian nor "Oshin" POC Ovid had ANY right to participate in
this part of the thread resulting from Darren's email. I ignored
Christians reply, I can't ignore this one. Apologies ahead of
time.

And who do you think you are? A "prominent member of the of the
Perl community"? Sounds like your prideful and envious screeds
should be on Fakebook, Reddit or Twitter, not P5P. Most people have
stayed technical and have been patient. Thank you for that, good
people.

But not some of you. This is a known problem on p5p. But as long as
I've been around, I did not imagine that personal attacks was going
to be something I'd have to deal with. HA. I say that, having seen
all the "brilliant but difficult" personalities be systematically,
run-off from this list for one reason or another over the years.
Oh, how Perl has suffered for this!!

Envy is a grave sin, so is calumny. It's also clouding your ability
to see that "Oshin" (which, btw, is named after a pagan river demon/
earth mother - speaking of "bizzare") would benefit from the low
level capabilities Perl::Types is going to introduce. I am sure
this was never considered, only that Perl::Types is a threat. I
assure you, it is not a threat to the "validation" sugar; it will
only make it faster.

Your attempt to spread FUD also will not work. People can see that
there are thousands and thousands of lines of implementation code
and tests in RPerl that we are extracting from RPerl as its own
module. But it's being falsely called vaporware and being mischaracterized
as having zero lines of code? You are an envious LIAR!

LIST MODERATORS/PSC/TPRF:

I formally and strenuously request "Oshun" POC Ovid and Christian
Walde be given Officially the first warning for their behavior on P5P in
accordance with the "P5P STANDARDS OF CONDUCT", as entered into "pod/perlpolicy.pod"
on July 7, 2014, by RJBS:

https://github.com/Perl/perl5/blob/blead/pod/perlpolicy.pod#L554

Which states,

=head1 STANDARDS OF CONDUCT

The official forum for the development of perl is the perl5-porters mailing
list, mentioned above, and its bugtracker at GitHub. Posting to the
list and the bugtracker is not a right: all participants in discussion are
expected to adhere to a standard of conduct.

=over 4

=item *

Always be civil.

=item *

Heed the moderators.

=back

Civility is simple: stick to the facts while avoiding demeaning remarks,
belittling other individuals, sarcasm, or a presumption of bad faith. It is
not enough to be factual. You must also be civil. Responding in kind to
incivility is not acceptable. If you relay otherwise-unposted comments to
the list from a third party, you take responsibility for the content of
those comments, and you must therefore ensure that they are civil.

While civility is required, kindness is encouraged; if you have any doubt about
whether you are being civil, simply ask yourself, "Am I being kind?" and aspire
to that.

If the list moderators tell you that you are not being civil, carefully
consider how your words have appeared before responding in any way. Were they
kind? You may protest, but repeated protest in the face of a repeatedly
reaffirmed decision is not acceptable. Repeatedly protesting about the
moderators' decisions regarding a third party is also unacceptable, as is
continuing to initiate off-list contact with the moderators about their
decisions.

Unacceptable behavior will result in a public and clearly identified
warning. A second instance of unacceptable behavior from the same
individual will result in removal from the mailing list and GitHub issue
tracker, for a period of one calendar month. The rationale for this is to
provide an opportunity for the person to change the way they act.

After the time-limited ban has been lifted, a third instance of
unacceptable behavior will result in a further public warning. A fourth
or subsequent instance will result in an indefinite ban. The rationale
is that, in the face of an apparent refusal to change behavior, we must
protect other community members from future unacceptable actions. The
moderators may choose to lift an indefinite ban if the person in
question affirms they will not transgress again.

Removals, like warnings, are public.

The list of moderators will be public knowledge. At present, it is:
Karen Etheridge, Neil Bowers, Nicholas Clark, Ricardo Signes, Todd Rinaldo.

=head1 CREDITS

"Social Contract about Contributed Modules" originally by Russ Allbery E<lt>rra@stanford.eduE<gt> and the perl5-porters.

Respectfully Submitted On Behalf of _Brett Estrade_,

Brett Estrade

* Ovid <curtis.poe@gmail.com> [2023-08-20 12:27:57 +0200]:

> On Sat, Aug 19, 2023 at 8:47?PM Oodler 577 via perl5-porters <
> perl5-porters@perl.org> wrote:
>
> > If anyone is interested in being part of the Perl::Types Committee
> > moving forward, please let me know. We have regular meetings and
> > formal levels of membership depending on interest, intellectual
> > contributions, and actual time given. Membership works by existing
> > members "sponsoring" (or vouching for) existing members...
>
> And that's the problem. With the Corinna project, I was not a gatekeeper. I
> was doorman, welcoming people. There were people who strongly disagreed
> with me. It was painful at times, but the end result is far better. But
> this strange gatekeeping has precedence and the context is important.
>
> Will Braswell is the chairman of your committee. On his private "Perl
> Programmers" group on Facebook, he recently had a meltdown, attacking
> prominent members of the Perl community (not the first time he's done
> this), shared private conversations without permission, deleted many posts
> and replies which called him out on his behavior, and banned discussions of
> programming languages he does not approve of, unless it's to attack those
> languages. He also banned some people from the group (why I was spared,
> when my responses were deleted, is a mystery).
>
> Worse, he continued this in a bizzare "Perl Town Hall" video,
> self-proclaiming himself the world's #1 Perl promoter, in a video only
> people in his personal group are allowed to see. He continued to attack
> people, talking about how they were hurting Perl. The whole thing was very
> ugly and many people left the group (note: if anyone joins his group, you
> won't see much of this because of Will's mass deletions).
>
> Around the time of Will's meltdown, he arrived in the Oshun project
> <https://github.com/orgs/Perl-Apollo/discussions/27>, calling our system
> "fake types", suggesting that we were deliberately ignoring his work
> (wtf?), and from the video *he linked*, he said this:
>
> "All of the type systems that you will find, except for one, that I
> happened to create, that is what this talk is about, are fake in the sense
> that they do not actually access the underlying C data types. They're just
> some syntax sugar to make you feel cool, or there's something that's maybe
> special data types that have been created that are not the actual core data
> types in Perl that we're going to teach you about."
>
> He said this while showing a picture of Elon Musk smoking marijuana, with
> the words "this type system smells funny." This is setting the stage very
> clearly.
>
> And how did I react? I politely called him out on his comments, and then *I
> welcomed him*. I expressed a willingness to discuss different ideas, and
> after some discussion, I asked three simple questions about his work:
>
> 1. Can it be easily disabled if there's a problem?
> 2. Does it allow "gradual typing"?
> 3. Can it interoperate with existing Perl code?
>
> Those are not difficult questions, but in case there was confusion, I
> explained why I was asking those questions. They have never been answered
> and on August 12, I closed the discussion because there was no discussion.
> A few days later, you show up on P5P to try to promote Perl::Types, but you
> left a few things out.
>
> You have no code. You have no tests (RPerl tests don't count because we're
> asking how it works with *Perl*). You have no documentation. You have no
> specification.
>
> For a speculative query, none of that is a bad thing. You're exploring
> ideas. I get that. But I had three simple questions which were never
> answered. I asked them again, and they were still not answered. In digging
> through the code, I thought *maybe* I have an answer for the second one.
> You finally answered the first one by mentioning it to someone else (thank
> you!) and you still have not answered that third question.
>
> Given that "RPerl" is a thing that's been around for a while, I would
> imagine that having the creator of RPerl handy would make it easy to answer
> those questions. You don't need a committee to answer them. So either you
> can't answer them, or you won't answer them. Neither of those is good.

--
--
oodler@cpan.org
oodler577@sdf-eu.org
SDF-EU Public Access UNIX System - http://sdfeu.org
irc.perl.org #openmp #pdl #native

On Sun, Aug 20, 2023 at 1:24?PM Oodler 577 via perl5-porters
<perl5-porters@perl.org> wrote:
>
> LIST MODERATORS/PSC/TPRF:
>
> I formally and strenuously request

Indeed, Hello.

I would like to induce the moderation team, since it seems likely to
convene in some form soon to consider action also with regard to the
above quoted message.

I would be happy to provide specifics (for example, offensive
quotations and my rationale for not assuming my distress each to be
"my problem"), if necessary; assuming it may not be, I've chosen to
elide as much as possible from the offensive post.

>
> https://github.com/Perl/perl5/blob/blead/pod/perlpolicy.pod#L554
>
> Which states,

[.in part, but IMO especially because it is effectively the first point made]
>
> =head1 STANDARDS OF CONDUCT
>
> The official forum for the development of perl is the perl5-porters mailing
> list, mentioned above, and its bugtracker at GitHub. Posting to the
> list and the bugtracker is not a right: all participants in discussion are
> expected to adhere to a standard of conduct.
>
> =over 4
>
> =item *
>
> Always be civil.
>

(resent to list)


> On Sun, Aug 20, 2023 at 2:24?PM Oodler 577 via perl5-porters <
> perl5-porters@perl.org> wrote:
>
>> Wow. Darren's email was not an invitation for this garbage. Some
>> of you really can't help yourselves. I replied because I was named
>> directly; Will is not on this list (for good reason!); neither
>> Christian nor "Oshin" POC Ovid had ANY right to participate in
>> this part of the thread resulting from Darren's email.
>>
>
> I'm not sure what authority you think you have to refuse the right of
> anyone to participate in a p5p mailing list thread.
>
>
>> Your attempt to spread FUD also will not work. People can see that
>> there are thousands and thousands of lines of implementation code
>> and tests in RPerl that we are extracting from RPerl as its own
>> module. But it's being falsely called vaporware and being mischaracterized
>> as having zero lines of code? You are an envious LIAR!
>>
>
> This is rather missing the point of his criticism of the merits, which you
> decided to make personal here. This isn't high school, we are trying to
> discuss the best ideas for Perl not who are the popular kids.
>
> -Dan
>

On Sun, 20 Aug 2023 20:23:42 +0200, Oodler 577 via perl5-porters <perl5-porters@perl.org> wrote:
> > Given the surprise expressed by Darren, i recommend to
> > persevere by way of contacting all other people named,
> > gaining express consent, rather than the current assumed
> > consent, and posting an updated list of all those who
> > expressed direct consent.
>
> neither
> Christian nor "Oshin" POC Ovid had ANY right to participate in
> this part of the thread resulting from Darren's email. I ignored
> Christians reply

I'm sorry if my earlier reply was too soft. Let me be slightly more clear.

It has happened in the past on this mailing list that someone invoked me and spoke as if for me, with a message i did not approve, nor was aware of, nor was consulted about, nor had my consent attained explicitly.

While you're not the same person, you have demonstrably managed to repeat this kind of behavior at least once. The behavior remains inacceptable.

I hinted to you softly to give you an opportunity to redress things on your own terms, but if you feel that is to be ignored, then i feel a need to at the very least spell this out explicitly: Since you seem not intent on engaging in such redress, i will inform the people mentioned that they might wish to review this situation.

As for the right you mention: I do not know if by right you speak of a moral right, or a procedural rules-based right of this mailing list. To my knowledge no such rules-based right or lack of exists here. As for the moral right, i hope you understand better now.

In the case of any further messages from you to me, i recommend weighing whether the list has any interest in them or not.

Also, as general advice: If the force of ovid's reply is a surprise to you ... look into yourself and consider whether you engaged in responsive and open dialogue. Due to past events the perl community has acquired a certain sensitivity to people who make plans for the future and decline to engage in dialogue.

--
With regards,
Christian Walde

On Sun, 20 Aug 2023 22:15:53 +0200, Christian Walde <walde.christian@gmail.com> wrote:

> Since you seem not intent on engaging in such redress, i will inform the people mentioned that they might wish to review this situation.

Said email sent. Out of the list of the committee:
- i elided Duncan, Oodler and Will for obvious reasons;
- was unable to find active PAUSE accounts for BIRDTY, WESTBASE, DMERA, DVU, RSHAH;
- and had the email bounce for MANJREKAR, MAGUDAS, HATLEYSFT
- leaving ZMUGHAL, JJNAPIORK, NHRNJICA and HAX as potential recipients

--
With regards,
Christian Walde

Brett,

I would like to respond to this as an impartial observer who sees good
points in both projects. Ovid clearly had a well-thought-out, (to the best
of my knowledge) factual email, with real examples of behavior, and very
valid technical questions, presented in a civil way. The restraint in his
email to keep his personal feelings out of it and keep it to the facts is
quite clear. This is despite attacks on his personal project as "fake
types" and the implication that his goal is thus invalid, which it is not,
just because it is a different goal. Could Ovid have avoided any comments
about a specific person? Maybe he could have. But if he had, valuable
context to the development and organization of Perl::Types would have been
missing. I remember reading his email and thinking "Wow, he put a lot of
thought into that to keep it civil despite feeling personally attacked by
Will!"

How did you respond to his clearly deeply thought out email? You responded
with personal attacks, calling a civil discussion "garbage", calling Ovid
"prideful and envious" (for having technical concerns), attacking the name
of someone else's project (how is that relevant?), and saying technical
questions are FUD despite the fact they still haven't really been
addressed. You also don't have authority to control who responds to what on
a public mailing list.

I'd like to call your attention to a few points in the CoC that you posted:

- "Stick to the facts while avoiding demeaning remarks, belittling other
individuals, sarcasm, or a presumption of bad faith." Have you done this?
Perhaps Ovid could have done better in his remarks on Will, but you've been
far more demeaning and attributed far more bad motives than Ovid did, which
brings me to the next point:
- "Responding in kind to incivility is not acceptable." If you see
something you feel is incivil, it is your duty to respond to it with
civility. You clearly did not do this.

In short, please stop. This kind of behavior is unacceptable on the mailing
list. If you have concerns about what Ovid said, take it up with moderators
and him in a far more civil way. Ovid was, in my opinion, civil. You
clearly were not. Please do better.

Thanks,
Avery

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 at 06:24, Oodler 577 via perl5-porters <
perl5-porters@perl.org> wrote:

> Wow. Darren's email was not an invitation for this garbage. Some
> of you really can't help yourselves. I replied because I was named
> directly; Will is not on this list (for good reason!); neither
> Christian nor "Oshin" POC Ovid had ANY right to participate in
> this part of the thread resulting from Darren's email. I ignored
> Christians reply, I can't ignore this one. Apologies ahead of
> time.
>
> And who do you think you are? A "prominent member of the of the
> Perl community"? Sounds like your prideful and envious screeds
> should be on Fakebook, Reddit or Twitter, not P5P. Most people have
> stayed technical and have been patient. Thank you for that, good
> people.
>
> But not some of you. This is a known problem on p5p. But as long as
> I've been around, I did not imagine that personal attacks was going
> to be something I'd have to deal with. HA. I say that, having seen
> all the "brilliant but difficult" personalities be systematically,
> run-off from this list for one reason or another over the years.
> Oh, how Perl has suffered for this!!
>
> Envy is a grave sin, so is calumny. It's also clouding your ability
> to see that "Oshin" (which, btw, is named after a pagan river demon/
> earth mother - speaking of "bizzare") would benefit from the low
> level capabilities Perl::Types is going to introduce. I am sure
> this was never considered, only that Perl::Types is a threat. I
> assure you, it is not a threat to the "validation" sugar; it will
> only make it faster.
>
> Your attempt to spread FUD also will not work. People can see that
> there are thousands and thousands of lines of implementation code
> and tests in RPerl that we are extracting from RPerl as its own
> module. But it's being falsely called vaporware and being mischaracterized
> as having zero lines of code? You are an envious LIAR!
>
> LIST MODERATORS/PSC/TPRF:
>
> I formally and strenuously request "Oshun" POC Ovid and Christian
> Walde be given Officially the first warning for their behavior on P5P in
> accordance with the "P5P STANDARDS OF CONDUCT", as entered into
> "pod/perlpolicy.pod"
> on July 7, 2014, by RJBS:
>
> https://github.com/Perl/perl5/blob/blead/pod/perlpolicy.pod#L554
>
> Which states,
>
> =head1 STANDARDS OF CONDUCT
>
> The official forum for the development of perl is the perl5-porters
> mailing
> list, mentioned above, and its bugtracker at GitHub. Posting to the
> list and the bugtracker is not a right: all participants in discussion
> are
> expected to adhere to a standard of conduct.
>
> =over 4
>
> =item *
>
> Always be civil.
>
> =item *
>
> Heed the moderators.
>
> =back
>
> Civility is simple: stick to the facts while avoiding demeaning
> remarks,
> belittling other individuals, sarcasm, or a presumption of bad faith.
> It is
> not enough to be factual. You must also be civil. Responding in kind
> to
> incivility is not acceptable. If you relay otherwise-unposted
> comments to
> the list from a third party, you take responsibility for the content of
> those comments, and you must therefore ensure that they are civil.
>
> While civility is required, kindness is encouraged; if you have any
> doubt about
> whether you are being civil, simply ask yourself, "Am I being kind?"
> and aspire
> to that.
>
> If the list moderators tell you that you are not being civil, carefully
> consider how your words have appeared before responding in any way.
> Were they
> kind? You may protest, but repeated protest in the face of a
> repeatedly
> reaffirmed decision is not acceptable. Repeatedly protesting about the
> moderators' decisions regarding a third party is also unacceptable, as
> is
> continuing to initiate off-list contact with the moderators about their
> decisions.
>
> Unacceptable behavior will result in a public and clearly identified
> warning. A second instance of unacceptable behavior from the same
> individual will result in removal from the mailing list and GitHub
> issue
> tracker, for a period of one calendar month. The rationale for this
> is to
> provide an opportunity for the person to change the way they act.
>
> After the time-limited ban has been lifted, a third instance of
> unacceptable behavior will result in a further public warning. A
> fourth
> or subsequent instance will result in an indefinite ban. The rationale
> is that, in the face of an apparent refusal to change behavior, we must
> protect other community members from future unacceptable actions. The
> moderators may choose to lift an indefinite ban if the person in
> question affirms they will not transgress again.
>
> Removals, like warnings, are public.
>
> The list of moderators will be public knowledge. At present, it is:
> Karen Etheridge, Neil Bowers, Nicholas Clark, Ricardo Signes, Todd
> Rinaldo.
>
> =head1 CREDITS
>
> "Social Contract about Contributed Modules" originally by Russ Allbery
> E<lt>rra@stanford.eduE<gt> and the perl5-porters.
>
> Respectfully Submitted On Behalf of _Brett Estrade_,
>
> Brett Estrade
>
> * Ovid <curtis.poe@gmail.com> [2023-08-20 12:27:57 +0200]:
>
> > On Sat, Aug 19, 2023 at 8:47?PM Oodler 577 via perl5-porters <
> > perl5-porters@perl.org> wrote:
> >
> > > If anyone is interested in being part of the Perl::Types Committee
> > > moving forward, please let me know. We have regular meetings and
> > > formal levels of membership depending on interest, intellectual
> > > contributions, and actual time given. Membership works by existing
> > > members "sponsoring" (or vouching for) existing members...
> >
> > And that's the problem. With the Corinna project, I was not a
> gatekeeper. I
> > was doorman, welcoming people. There were people who strongly disagreed
> > with me. It was painful at times, but the end result is far better. But
> > this strange gatekeeping has precedence and the context is important.
> >
> > Will Braswell is the chairman of your committee. On his private "Perl
> > Programmers" group on Facebook, he recently had a meltdown, attacking
> > prominent members of the Perl community (not the first time he's done
> > this), shared private conversations without permission, deleted many
> posts
> > and replies which called him out on his behavior, and banned discussions
> of
> > programming languages he does not approve of, unless it's to attack those
> > languages. He also banned some people from the group (why I was spared,
> > when my responses were deleted, is a mystery).
> >
> > Worse, he continued this in a bizzare "Perl Town Hall" video,
> > self-proclaiming himself the world's #1 Perl promoter, in a video only
> > people in his personal group are allowed to see. He continued to attack
> > people, talking about how they were hurting Perl. The whole thing was
> very
> > ugly and many people left the group (note: if anyone joins his group, you
> > won't see much of this because of Will's mass deletions).
> >
> > Around the time of Will's meltdown, he arrived in the Oshun project
> > <https://github.com/orgs/Perl-Apollo/discussions/27>, calling our system
> > "fake types", suggesting that we were deliberately ignoring his work
> > (wtf?), and from the video *he linked*, he said this:
> >
> > "All of the type systems that you will find, except for one, that I
> > happened to create, that is what this talk is about, are fake in the
> sense
> > that they do not actually access the underlying C data types. They're
> just
> > some syntax sugar to make you feel cool, or there's something that's
> maybe
> > special data types that have been created that are not the actual core
> data
> > types in Perl that we're going to teach you about."
> >
> > He said this while showing a picture of Elon Musk smoking marijuana, with
> > the words "this type system smells funny." This is setting the stage very
> > clearly.
> >
> > And how did I react? I politely called him out on his comments, and then
> *I
> > welcomed him*. I expressed a willingness to discuss different ideas, and
> > after some discussion, I asked three simple questions about his work:
> >
> > 1. Can it be easily disabled if there's a problem?
> > 2. Does it allow "gradual typing"?
> > 3. Can it interoperate with existing Perl code?
> >
> > Those are not difficult questions, but in case there was confusion, I
> > explained why I was asking those questions. They have never been answered
> > and on August 12, I closed the discussion because there was no
> discussion.
> > A few days later, you show up on P5P to try to promote Perl::Types, but
> you
> > left a few things out.
> >
> > You have no code. You have no tests (RPerl tests don't count because
> we're
> > asking how it works with *Perl*). You have no documentation. You have no
> > specification.
> >
> > For a speculative query, none of that is a bad thing. You're exploring
> > ideas. I get that. But I had three simple questions which were never
> > answered. I asked them again, and they were still not answered. In
> digging
> > through the code, I thought *maybe* I have an answer for the second one.
> > You finally answered the first one by mentioning it to someone else
> (thank
> > you!) and you still have not answered that third question.
> >
> > Given that "RPerl" is a thing that's been around for a while, I would
> > imagine that having the creator of RPerl handy would make it easy to
> answer
> > those questions. You don't need a committee to answer them. So either you
> > can't answer them, or you won't answer them. Neither of those is good.
>
> --
> --
> oodler@cpan.org
> oodler577@sdf-eu.org
> SDF-EU Public Access UNIX System - http://sdfeu.org
> irc.perl.org #openmp #pdl #native
>