Mailing List Archive

Is anyone else using Object::Pad? [was Re: Twigils]
On Wed, 18 Aug 2021 14:30:39 +0100
"Paul \"LeoNerd\" Evans" <leonerd@leonerd.org.uk> wrote:

> Also, both of these points are made by reference to myself having
> actually written large amounts of real actual code using Object::Pad.
> [1].

Furthermore on this note, I am getting somewhat frustrated in a lot of
these Corinna design discussions, when it feels like everyone else
involved is discussing from a purely hypothetical perspective without
having written any real code.

Object::Pad exists.

https://metacpan.org/pod/Object::Pad

It is an experimental test-ground for all of these Corinna-based ideas.
I began writing it almost two years ago now, precisely for the reason
of giving us a good experimental playground to try out these Corinna
ideas for real in real code (i.e. not just a paper design exercise).

I often get the impression that nobody else has even seen that it
exists, let alone actually tried writing any real code using it.
metacpan's reverse-depends seems to support this impression:

https://metacpan.org/module/Object::Pad/requires?size=500

At time of writing, there are only three distributions on that list not
written by me. Of those, two of them are just benchmarking it and not
using the code for real. The only other one is written/released by
a $work client of mine - admittedly they're writing a lot more of
that one than I am on it.

But overall this doesn't give me the impression that almost anyone else
is actually trying to use these things for real.

If folks are going to get involved in debating the design of Corinna,
can you at the very least be familiar with what already exists and is
actually implemented (thus avoiding any comments on "oh that might be
hard to implement" and the like), and ideally, get a feel for what it
is like to actually use the system in practice.

--
Paul "LeoNerd" Evans

leonerd@leonerd.org.uk | https://metacpan.org/author/PEVANS
http://www.leonerd.org.uk/ | https://www.tindie.com/stores/leonerd/
Re: Is anyone else using Object::Pad? [was Re: Twigils] [ In reply to ]
Good rebuke.

I think the distribution would benefit from being renamed to something like
Corinna::Prototype to be easily noticed and acknowledged by Perl users.

Thanks for all your work on Perl, Paul Evans.


18 avq 2021, Ç. 17:54 tarixind? Paul "LeoNerd" Evans <leonerd@leonerd.org.uk>
yazd?:

> On Wed, 18 Aug 2021 14:30:39 +0100
> "Paul \"LeoNerd\" Evans" <leonerd@leonerd.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > Also, both of these points are made by reference to myself having
> > actually written large amounts of real actual code using Object::Pad.
> > [1].
>
> Furthermore on this note, I am getting somewhat frustrated in a lot of
> these Corinna design discussions, when it feels like everyone else
> involved is discussing from a purely hypothetical perspective without
> having written any real code.
>
> Object::Pad exists.
>
> https://metacpan.org/pod/Object::Pad
>
> It is an experimental test-ground for all of these Corinna-based ideas.
> I began writing it almost two years ago now, precisely for the reason
> of giving us a good experimental playground to try out these Corinna
> ideas for real in real code (i.e. not just a paper design exercise).
>
> I often get the impression that nobody else has even seen that it
> exists, let alone actually tried writing any real code using it.
> metacpan's reverse-depends seems to support this impression:
>
> https://metacpan.org/module/Object::Pad/requires?size=500
>
> At time of writing, there are only three distributions on that list not
> written by me. Of those, two of them are just benchmarking it and not
> using the code for real. The only other one is written/released by
> a $work client of mine - admittedly they're writing a lot more of
> that one than I am on it.
>
> But overall this doesn't give me the impression that almost anyone else
> is actually trying to use these things for real.
>
> If folks are going to get involved in debating the design of Corinna,
> can you at the very least be familiar with what already exists and is
> actually implemented (thus avoiding any comments on "oh that might be
> hard to implement" and the like), and ideally, get a feel for what it
> is like to actually use the system in practice.
>
> --
> Paul "LeoNerd" Evans
>
> leonerd@leonerd.org.uk | https://metacpan.org/author/PEVANS
> http://www.leonerd.org.uk/ | https://www.tindie.com/stores/leonerd/
>
Re: Is anyone else using Object::Pad? [was Re: Twigils] [ In reply to ]
Paul,

What you say is true in some cases, but for others I disagree with the idea that
one can't comment without having first written code using Object::Pad.

I feel I already understand the user experience well enough just from the
Corinna spec and I don't need to use Object::Pad to understand it. Also using
Object::Pad will take an order of magnitude or several more time than commenting
hypothetically.

I have already committed (per Twitter comment a few weeks ago) to use
Object::Pad to build my next real Perl project in (open source), however it will
take at minimum a few months if not longer before I can get around to starting
that, so commenting from hypothetical only is a very effective way for me to
contribute to Corinna betterment now when it is needed most.

Also I agree that renaming Object::Pad to Corinna::Prototype per Elvin Asianov's
suggestion should boost its visibility significantly.

-- Darren Duncan

On 2021-08-18 6:54 a.m., Paul "LeoNerd" Evans wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Aug 2021 14:30:39 +0100
> "Paul \"LeoNerd\" Evans" <leonerd@leonerd.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Also, both of these points are made by reference to myself having
>> actually written large amounts of real actual code using Object::Pad.
>> [1].
>
> Furthermore on this note, I am getting somewhat frustrated in a lot of
> these Corinna design discussions, when it feels like everyone else
> involved is discussing from a purely hypothetical perspective without
> having written any real code.
>
> Object::Pad exists.
>
> https://metacpan.org/pod/Object::Pad
>
> It is an experimental test-ground for all of these Corinna-based ideas.
> I began writing it almost two years ago now, precisely for the reason
> of giving us a good experimental playground to try out these Corinna
> ideas for real in real code (i.e. not just a paper design exercise).
>
> I often get the impression that nobody else has even seen that it
> exists, let alone actually tried writing any real code using it.
> metacpan's reverse-depends seems to support this impression:
>
> https://metacpan.org/module/Object::Pad/requires?size=500
>
> At time of writing, there are only three distributions on that list not
> written by me. Of those, two of them are just benchmarking it and not
> using the code for real. The only other one is written/released by
> a $work client of mine - admittedly they're writing a lot more of
> that one than I am on it.
>
> But overall this doesn't give me the impression that almost anyone else
> is actually trying to use these things for real.
>
> If folks are going to get involved in debating the design of Corinna,
> can you at the very least be familiar with what already exists and is
> actually implemented (thus avoiding any comments on "oh that might be
> hard to implement" and the like), and ideally, get a feel for what it
> is like to actually use the system in practice.
>
Re: Is anyone else using Object::Pad? [was Re: Twigils] [ In reply to ]
On Thursday, 19 August 2021, 06:40:53 CEST, Darren Duncan <darren@darrenduncan.net> wrote:

> Also I agree that renaming Object::Pad to Corinna::Prototype per Elvin Asianov's
> suggestion should boost its visibility significantly.

Object::Pad shouldnt't be named Corinna::Prototype because it's not. It's a testbed for Corinna ideas, but Paul's gone far beyond that. It's a playground that let's him experiment with things that are not going to be in the MVP and perhaps will never be in Corinna.
If it were to be renamed, something like Corinna::Playground or Corinna::Testbed would be more appropriate. That being said, Object::Pad has been around long enough, and it's in production use, that I'm unsure of the wisdom of renaming it.
Best,Ovid-- IT consulting, training, specializing in Perl, databases, and agile developmenthttp://www.allaroundtheworld.fr/. 
Buy my book! - http://bit.ly/beginning_perl
Re: Is anyone else using Object::Pad? [was Re: Twigils] [ In reply to ]
On Thu, 19 Aug 2021 06:13:00 +0000 (UTC)
Ovid via perl5-porters <perl5-porters@perl.org> wrote:

> On Thursday, 19 August 2021, 06:40:53 CEST, Darren Duncan
> <darren@darrenduncan.net> wrote:
> > Also I agree that renaming Object::Pad to Corinna::Prototype per
> > Elvin Asianov's suggestion should boost its visibility
> > significantly.
>
> Object::Pad shouldnt't be named Corinna::Prototype because it's not.
> It's a testbed for Corinna ideas, but Paul's gone far beyond that.
> It's a playground that let's him experiment with things that are not
> going to be in the MVP and perhaps will never be in Corinna. If it
> were to be renamed, something like Corinna::Playground or
> Corinna::Testbed would be more appropriate. That being said,
> Object::Pad has been around long enough, and it's in production use,
> that I'm unsure of the wisdom of renaming it.

I'm verymuch with Ovid here.

Object::Pad isn't *just* a testbed for Corinna, and it isn't really a
prototype implementation. The two certainly overlap, and each takes
ideas from the other, but they aren't the same. Furthermore, the actual
implementation is done in a somewhat different way to what would be
possible if it were in core, because it isn't in core. It doesn't have
access to anywhere near the same amount of tricks as a true core impl
would.


I'm also not sure if this naming argument really makes sense. Compare
the number of users of e.g. Class::Accessor vs. Moose. Why should
naming something after a hoofed mammal suddenly give it much more
popularity?

--
Paul "LeoNerd" Evans

leonerd@leonerd.org.uk | https://metacpan.org/author/PEVANS
http://www.leonerd.org.uk/ | https://www.tindie.com/stores/leonerd/