Mailing List Archive

Individual Member Director Elections
Hi,

During the October 3 meeting, the board discussed the election process
for the individual member directors and made some fairly shocking
conclusions.

As you may recall, there has been concern about this process since its
inception, and the board has spent some time dealing with this.

On November 16, 2012:
RESOLVED, that the Board will bring in outside experts and conduct a
proper legal review before making changes to the cumulative voting
process prior to the next election.

And on February 12 2013:
RESOLVED, that the following members of the Board shall be appointed
to an Election Committee, to be chaired by Mr. Moore:
...

From what I gather, that election committee produced a report that was
delivered to the directors. I have not read it because it has not been
made public; nor do I believe that any input from the wider community
was solicited. But based on that report, the board concluded that the
individual member director election process is fine the way it is and
does not need to change.

I believe this is, to anyone who has been paying attention for the past
year, quite a shocking determination to make.

During the discussion, in support of this, some participants offered the
following evidence:

* There is no problem with the election system because the board
passes most resolutions unanimously.

* There is no problem with the election system because there is no
public outcry.

The first is an innovative use of logic. If that makes sense to anyone,
then they clearly have not understood the issue.

The second, of course, is what has prompted me to send this email.
Consider this an outcry. I can only speak for myself, but I have been
patiently waiting for the board to address this issue, and I've been
happy to let them get on with doing that work without maintaining a
continual outcry. I'm certain I'm not the only one in such a position.
In case the board has forgotten, there was a significant outcry from
around the first election until the board began to take its first small
actions on the issue. Please refer to the foundation mailing list
archives for a reminder.

One of the most significant problems with the individual member director
election process is the use of cumulative voting. Cumulative voting is
very popular for electing boards of directors because shareholders may
be allocated points to use in voting based on the number of shares they
own in the corporation.

That's not what we're doing here.

We're actually trying to do something that hasn't been done before --
give individuals with an interest in an open source project a voice on
the board of directors of a trade association.

For all other elections in the OpenStack community, we use a Condorcet
method because it allows us to express support for multiple candidates
in a multiple-seat election in a way that we feel is fair for our
community. For example, when voting for the TC, one can read the
platforms of the candidates, rank them in accordance with how strongly
the voter agrees with each, and the result will be that the seats are
filled by the candidates with the widest appeal.

If one were to apply that process to the individual member director
election, they will have wasted their votes.

In our first individual member director election, we saw quite a number
of voters vote only for candidates that shared their employer -- as high
as 81% of the voters from one company voted only for employees of that
company.

Given that there were hundreds of voters who sat down and gave all eight
votes to one candidate, if an individual decided to give 1 vote to each
of the eight people they thought would best represent them on the board,
they have made their vote count for one-eighth of the value of the
person who gave all eight votes to one candidate. This is a recipe for
disappointment.

I would like for the individual member directors to represent the
diverse population of the individual members who genuinely care about
our project. Those people may work for large corporations or not. But
as long as we have large blocks in the electorate who wield their
massive voting power solely to the benefit of a few candidates, any
voter who doesn't take that into account is wasting their vote. I don't
think that's what we want the defining characteristic of these elections
to be.

This is a big problem, and I would like the board to continue to work to
address it. I think the following steps would be very helpful:

* Publish the report from the election committee
* Solicit input from the community
* Continue to update the public copy of the election committee's
report as it evolves
* Identify specific alternate voting systems that could address the
community's concerns
* Identify which of those would require a bylaws change (the bylaws
say we have the "option" for cumulative voting; what are the other
"options"?)
* Get solid legal advice on how to use those in the context of a board
of directors election
* Bring these results to the community for further input before
putting forward a motion to change the election process

-Jim

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Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
On 2013-10-07 10:12:22 -0700 (-0700), James E. Blair wrote:
[...]
> Consider this an outcry. I can only speak for myself, but I have been
> patiently waiting for the board to address this issue, and I've been
> happy to let them get on with doing that work without maintaining a
> continual outcry. I'm certain I'm not the only one in such a position.
[...]

I can state without hesitation that you are not the only member
incensed by the near-unanimous passing of that motion, nor by the
secretly-drafted (from the viewpoint of a majority of the
electorate) report from the election committee. I personally agree
with everything you've said, and urge the election committee to
follow a more open research methodology including a public
commentary period before making such recommendations in the future.
--
Jeremy Stanley
Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
Hi Jim,

On Mon, 2013-10-07 at 10:12 -0700, James E. Blair wrote:
> Hi,
>
> During the October 3 meeting, the board discussed the election process
> for the individual member directors and made some fairly shocking
> conclusions.
>
> As you may recall, there has been concern about this process since its
> inception, and the board has spent some time dealing with this.
>
> On November 16, 2012:
> RESOLVED, that the Board will bring in outside experts and conduct a
> proper legal review before making changes to the cumulative voting
> process prior to the next election.
>
> And on February 12 2013:
> RESOLVED, that the following members of the Board shall be appointed
> to an Election Committee, to be chaired by Mr. Moore:
> ...
>
> From what I gather, that election committee produced a report that was
> delivered to the directors. I have not read it because it has not been
> made public; nor do I believe that any input from the wider community
> was solicited. But based on that report, the board concluded that the
> individual member director election process is fine the way it is and
> does not need to change.
>
> I believe this is, to anyone who has been paying attention for the past
> year, quite a shocking determination to make.

All your points are well made and thanks for taking the time to make
them.

I do very much agree with your points about the election system and
favoured a change to STV but, yet, I did vote to not change the system
this year because:

- there was a general feeling that relatively few perceive the
problem here. Comparing our ~6000 members to the numbers expressing
serious concerns on this mailing list, you can see why.

- the current system does appear to have elected committed board
members who act on behalf of the membership rather than their
affiliation. That could be a self-serving perspective, though.

- with such a large electorate, getting a majority of a 25+% voter
turnout to vote for an election system change is going to require a
lot of awareness raising. I'm trying to imagine a massive "our
election system is broken, it's critical you turn out to fix it"
being a positive thing. I'm also concious that if we did hold a
vote to move to STV and it was rejected, that could be the end of
the matter forever.

- I do think the code of conduct will have an influence and prevent
"bad" voter behaviour. I'm basing that on the strong endorsement
all board members appear to give the code.

- I was in favour of the max-4-votes-per-candidate "tweak" because we
initially thought that would not require a bylaws change. This would
have had an immediate positive effect IMHO.

i.e. my conclusion was that we should make a tweak for this cycle and
revisit if/when this becomes a big enough issue again to mobilize a
large enough chunk of the electorate.

Ultimately, though, my concern is how our membership numbers means there
is a massive difference in commitment/engagement between our members.
The number of members who are closely engaged with the project (and no,
I don't just mean ATCs) is huge by any standards but they are most
likely dwarfed by the number of less engaged members. That numbers game
had a big impact on this debate IMHO.


All that said, it's fair to say the election committee realized only
last week that we should have been far more transparent and e.g. had a
mailing list like the transparency committee has. I should take
responsibility for that since your concerns about the committee's
workings is like a mirror image of mine from last year:

http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation/2012-November/001250.html

The report of the committee was intended to be published, I trust it
will be soon.


Thanks again,
Mark.


_______________________________________________
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Foundation@lists.openstack.org
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
> On Oct 7, 2013, at 4:06 PM, Mark McLoughlin <markmc@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Jim,
>
>> On Mon, 2013-10-07 at 10:12 -0700, James E. Blair wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> During the October 3 meeting, the board discussed the election process
>> for the individual member directors and made some fairly shocking
>> conclusions.
>>
>> As you may recall, there has been concern about this process since its
>> inception, and the board has spent some time dealing with this.
>>
>> On November 16, 2012:
>> RESOLVED, that the Board will bring in outside experts and conduct a
>> proper legal review before making changes to the cumulative voting
>> process prior to the next election.
>>
>> And on February 12 2013:
>> RESOLVED, that the following members of the Board shall be appointed
>> to an Election Committee, to be chaired by Mr. Moore:
>> ...
>>
>> From what I gather, that election committee produced a report that was
>> delivered to the directors. I have not read it because it has not been
>> made public; nor do I believe that any input from the wider community
>> was solicited. But based on that report, the board concluded that the
>> individual member director election process is fine the way it is and
>> does not need to change.
>>
>> I believe this is, to anyone who has been paying attention for the past
>> year, quite a shocking determination to make.
>
> All your points are well made and thanks for taking the time to make
> them.

Yes. Thank you for voicing these concerns. This is an issue that needs broad input from the members of the foundation.

>
> I do very much agree with your points about the election system and
> favoured a change to STV but, yet, I did vote to not change the system
> this year because:
>
> - there was a general feeling that relatively few perceive the
> problem here. Comparing our ~6000 members to the numbers expressing
> serious concerns on this mailing list, you can see why.
>
> - the current system does appear to have elected committed board
> members who act on behalf of the membership rather than their
> affiliation. That could be a self-serving perspective, though.
>
> - with such a large electorate, getting a majority of a 25+% voter
> turnout to vote for an election system change is going to require a
> lot of awareness raising. I'm trying to imagine a massive "our
> election system is broken, it's critical you turn out to fix it"
> being a positive thing. I'm also concious that if we did hold a
> vote to move to STV and it was rejected, that could be the end of
> the matter forever.
>
> - I do think the code of conduct will have an influence and prevent
> "bad" voter behaviour. I'm basing that on the strong endorsement
> all board members appear to give the code.

I do believe most members try and follow the code. However, everyone re-emphasized this prior to the 2013 elections and the numbers were only marginally improved. Given the concerns, I am not inclined to rely solely on the code of conduct when there are other actions at our disposal that are in practice at other organizations.

>
> - I was in favour of the max-4-votes-per-candidate "tweak" because we
> initially thought that would not require a bylaws change. This would
> have had an immediate positive effect IMHO.
>
> i.e. my conclusion was that we should make a tweak for this cycle and
> revisit if/when this becomes a big enough issue again to mobilize a
> large enough chunk of the electorate.

I ended up in the same place as Mark. I felt an incremental improvement in the near term was our best option. We didn't discover, until after the vote on the total system change, that even an incremental change to the cumulative voting system was impossible in this cycle. Had this been clear earlier, I would have favored pushing for a vote to switch to SVT.

I believe there would still be an opportunity to get this on a ballot in January if there was enough support from the community to move in this direction without waiting for one more round of votes. I would certainly be willing to revisit this prior to the January elections.

>
> Ultimately, though, my concern is how our membership numbers means there
> is a massive difference in commitment/engagement between our members.
> The number of members who are closely engaged with the project (and no,
> I don't just mean ATCs) is huge by any standards but they are most
> likely dwarfed by the number of less engaged members. That numbers game
> had a big impact on this debate IMHO.

I think we would all prefer to make sure eligible voters are active in the community. This turns out to be more difficult than you might think as we want to make sure activity includes more than code contributions. I think this is an area where, using community input, we can make a lot of headway and begin to find a way to focus on active members of the community.

>
>
> All that said, it's fair to say the election committee realized only
> last week that we should have been far more transparent and e.g. had a
> mailing list like the transparency committee has. I should take
> responsibility for that since your concerns about the committee's
> workings is like a mirror image of mine from last year:
>
> http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation/2012-November/001250.html

We all whiffed on this one. In the effort to get something done before the window closed, I think we were completely blind to the transparency obligation. Huge lesson for me here as I have always advocated for more transparency from this board. There is no excuse but it turns out to be harder to remember than I expected. Hopefully, we will an infrastructure in place soon that makes this the default for all board interactions.

>
> The report of the committee was intended to be published, I trust it
> will be soon.
>
>
> Thanks again,
> Mark.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foundation mailing list
> Foundation@lists.openstack.org
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation

_______________________________________________
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Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
Mark McLoughlin wrote:
> [...]
> All your points are well made and thanks for taking the time to make
> them.
>
> I do very much agree with your points about the election system and
> favoured a change to STV but, yet, I did vote to not change the system
> this year because:
>
> - there was a general feeling that relatively few perceive the
> problem here. Comparing our ~6000 members to the numbers expressing
> serious concerns on this mailing list, you can see why.

I suspect a lot of people consider that the already-raised concerns
should be enough to trigger a proper response and don't feel the need to
+1 to be "counted". For the record, add me to the number expressing
"serious concerns".

> - the current system does appear to have elected committed board
> members who act on behalf of the membership rather than their
> affiliation. That could be a self-serving perspective, though.

It's a classic dilemma with democracy: the currently-elected (who decide
to keep or change the rules) generally don't feel like changing a system
that worked perfectly well to elect them.

> - with such a large electorate, getting a majority of a 25+% voter
> turnout to vote for an election system change is going to require a
> lot of awareness raising. I'm trying to imagine a massive "our
> election system is broken, it's critical you turn out to fix it"
> being a positive thing. I'm also concious that if we did hold a
> vote to move to STV and it was rejected, that could be the end of
> the matter forever.
>
> - I do think the code of conduct will have an influence and prevent
> "bad" voter behaviour. I'm basing that on the strong endorsement
> all board members appear to give the code.

It's not that clear cut. Is giving all your votes to a single person
"bad behaviour" ? Is voting only for members of your company "bad
behaviour" ? If you answer "no" to both of the above, how can you blame
a company that ends up with 81% of its employees voting only on company
candidates ?

> - I was in favour of the max-4-votes-per-candidate "tweak" because we
> initially thought that would not require a bylaws change. This would
> have had an immediate positive effect IMHO.

Personally I would have made it max-1-vote-per-candidate. Forcing
everyone to pick the 8 people they want as individual members would
definitely and efficiently dilute block voting. And it makes perfect sense.

--
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

_______________________________________________
Foundation mailing list
Foundation@lists.openstack.org
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
Hi,

On 10/08/2013 11:59 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
>> - I was in favour of the max-4-votes-per-candidate "tweak" because we
>> initially thought that would not require a bylaws change. This would
>> have had an immediate positive effect IMHO.
>
> Personally I would have made it max-1-vote-per-candidate. Forcing
> everyone to pick the 8 people they want as individual members would
> definitely and efficiently dilute block voting. And it makes perfect sense.

This is the system we had for teh GNOME board of directors, and I was
one of the people who campaigned to have this changed, because 11
equal-weight votes leads to a pure popularity contest (name recognition
is likely to get you in the top 11 if you've been around for a while,
regardless of whether you're good or not, and newer candidates struggle
to get elected, regardless of what they bring to the table).

Cheers,
Dave.

--
Dave Neary - Community Action and Impact
Open Source and Standards, Red Hat - http://community.redhat.com
Ph: +33 9 50 71 55 62 / Cell: +33 6 77 01 92 13

_______________________________________________
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Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
I was undecided on the 4-vs-8 option... Some members in the election do want to express strong support for a single candidate and this change would limit their ability to express themselves as they wish.

We saw a significant improvement in the vote spread during the 2nd election compared to the first. I think we'll see further improvements this time round as well with the foundation membership growing and becoming more aware of the nature of the community.

Tim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Neary [mailto:dneary@redhat.com]
> Sent: 08 October 2013 12:13
> To: Thierry Carrez
> Cc: foundation@lists.openstack.org
> Subject: Re: [OpenStack Foundation] Individual Member Director Elections
>
> Hi,
>
> On 10/08/2013 11:59 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> >> - I was in favour of the max-4-votes-per-candidate "tweak" because we
> >> initially thought that would not require a bylaws change. This would
> >> have had an immediate positive effect IMHO.
> >
> > Personally I would have made it max-1-vote-per-candidate. Forcing
> > everyone to pick the 8 people they want as individual members would
> > definitely and efficiently dilute block voting. And it makes perfect sense.
>
> This is the system we had for teh GNOME board of directors, and I was one of the people who campaigned to have this changed, because
> 11 equal-weight votes leads to a pure popularity contest (name recognition is likely to get you in the top 11 if you've been around for a
> while, regardless of whether you're good or not, and newer candidates struggle to get elected, regardless of what they bring to the table).
>
> Cheers,
> Dave.
>
> --
> Dave Neary - Community Action and Impact Open Source and Standards, Red Hat - http://community.redhat.com
> Ph: +33 9 50 71 55 62 / Cell: +33 6 77 01 92 13
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foundation mailing list
> Foundation@lists.openstack.org
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation

_______________________________________________
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Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
The ASF moved to STV years and years ago and never looked back. It prevents
a board based on pure popularity and especially one based on ballot
stuffing.


On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Thierry Carrez <thierry@openstack.org>wrote:

> Mark McLoughlin wrote:
> > [...]
> > All your points are well made and thanks for taking the time to make
> > them.
> >
> > I do very much agree with your points about the election system and
> > favoured a change to STV but, yet, I did vote to not change the system
> > this year because:
> >
> > - there was a general feeling that relatively few perceive the
> > problem here. Comparing our ~6000 members to the numbers expressing
> > serious concerns on this mailing list, you can see why.
>
> I suspect a lot of people consider that the already-raised concerns
> should be enough to trigger a proper response and don't feel the need to
> +1 to be "counted". For the record, add me to the number expressing
> "serious concerns".
>
> > - the current system does appear to have elected committed board
> > members who act on behalf of the membership rather than their
> > affiliation. That could be a self-serving perspective, though.
>
> It's a classic dilemma with democracy: the currently-elected (who decide
> to keep or change the rules) generally don't feel like changing a system
> that worked perfectly well to elect them.
>
> > - with such a large electorate, getting a majority of a 25+% voter
> > turnout to vote for an election system change is going to require a
> > lot of awareness raising. I'm trying to imagine a massive "our
> > election system is broken, it's critical you turn out to fix it"
> > being a positive thing. I'm also concious that if we did hold a
> > vote to move to STV and it was rejected, that could be the end of
> > the matter forever.
> >
> > - I do think the code of conduct will have an influence and prevent
> > "bad" voter behaviour. I'm basing that on the strong endorsement
> > all board members appear to give the code.
>
> It's not that clear cut. Is giving all your votes to a single person
> "bad behaviour" ? Is voting only for members of your company "bad
> behaviour" ? If you answer "no" to both of the above, how can you blame
> a company that ends up with 81% of its employees voting only on company
> candidates ?
>
> > - I was in favour of the max-4-votes-per-candidate "tweak" because we
> > initially thought that would not require a bylaws change. This would
> > have had an immediate positive effect IMHO.
>
> Personally I would have made it max-1-vote-per-candidate. Forcing
> everyone to pick the 8 people they want as individual members would
> definitely and efficiently dilute block voting. And it makes perfect sense.
>
> --
> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foundation mailing list
> Foundation@lists.openstack.org
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
>
Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
Jim Jagielski wrote:
> The ASF moved to STV years and years ago and never looked back. It
> prevents a board based on pure popularity and especially one based on
> ballot stuffing.

That would be my preferred solution. FWIW we have been using Condorcet
on the technical leadership side (PTL elections and Technical Committee
elections) since the beginning.

Like many others, I just thought that adjusting the cumulative vote
rules would be a nice incremental improvement that doesn't require
bylaws changes ("look! it's still cumulative!")... but lawyer(s)
apparently disagree :/

--
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

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Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
+1 to Theirry's comments below.
My personal opinion is that the code of conduct is an inadequate influence over behavior, as Theirry suggests.
STV would go a ways to improving the situation, but it would not neutralize the voting block behavior.
Quite honestly, and I know that many will rail against this, the problem is the temptation.
Eliminate the ability for any single entity to have more than one seat on the board.
That would increase the diversity of the board, which would be a Good Thing(tm). Yes, I have heard all the arguments for allowing the movers and shakers in the development community some influence at the board level. I get it, I really do. However, they have all the influence they need at the TC level, where the technical decisions are made. If they want to influence decisions of the board, their voice alone should be sufficient to help influence the other board members.
The bottom line is that you can't have your cake and eat it, too. Remove the temptation and the behavior will normalize. No other organization that I know of permits multiplicity of representation on the board from a single entity.

Cheers,

Christopher Ferris
IBM Distinguished Engineer
IBM Software Group, Standards Strategy
email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/chrisferris
phone: +1 508 234 2986

-----Thierry Carrez <thierry@openstack.org> wrote: -----To: foundation@lists.openstack.org
From: Thierry Carrez <thierry@openstack.org>
Date: 10/08/2013 06:01AM
Subject: Re: [OpenStack Foundation] Individual Member Director Elections

Mark McLoughlin wrote:
> [..]
> All your points are well made and thanks for taking the time to make
> them.
>
> I do very much agree with your points about the election system and
> favoured a change to STV but, yet, I did vote to not change the system
> this year because:
>
> - there was a general feeling that relatively few perceive the
> problem here. Comparing our ~6000 members to the numbers expressing
> serious concerns on this mailing list, you can see why.

I suspect a lot of people consider that the already-raised concerns
should be enough to trigger a proper response and don't feel the need to
+1 to be "counted". For the record, add me to the number expressing
"serious concerns".

> - the current system does appear to have elected committed board
> members who act on behalf of the membership rather than their
> affiliation. That could be a self-serving perspective, though.

It's a classic dilemma with democracy: the currently-elected (who decide
to keep or change the rules) generally don't feel like changing a system
that worked perfectly well to elect them.

> - with such a large electorate, getting a majority of a 25+% voter
> turnout to vote for an election system change is going to require a
> lot of awareness raising. I'm trying to imagine a massive "our
> election system is broken, it's critical you turn out to fix it"
> being a positive thing. I'm also concious that if we did hold a
> vote to move to STV and it was rejected, that could be the end of
> the matter forever.
>
> - I do think the code of conduct will have an influence and prevent
> "bad" voter behaviour. I'm basing that on the strong endorsement
> all board members appear to give the code.

It's not that clear cut. Is giving all your votes to a single person
"bad behaviour" ? Is voting only for members of your company "bad
behaviour" ? If you answer "no" to both of the above, how can you blame
a company that ends up with 81% of its employees voting only on company
candidates ?

> - I was in favour of the max-4-votes-per-candidate "tweak" because we
> initially thought that would not require a bylaws change. This would
> have had an immediate positive effect IMHO.

Personally I would have made it max-1-vote-per-candidate. Forcing
everyone to pick the 8 people they want as individual members would
definitely and efficiently dilute block voting. And it makes perfect sense.

--
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

_______________________________________________
Foundation mailing list
Foundation@lists.openstack.org
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation"]http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation

Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
IMO, delaying doing "the right thing" simply because it involves a bylaws
change or lawyers really shouldn't be a valid excuse, especially for such a
large and well-funded organization as OpenStack.


On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 8:30 AM, Thierry Carrez <thierry@openstack.org>wrote:

> Jim Jagielski wrote:
> > The ASF moved to STV years and years ago and never looked back. It
> > prevents a board based on pure popularity and especially one based on
> > ballot stuffing.
>
> That would be my preferred solution. FWIW we have been using Condorcet
> on the technical leadership side (PTL elections and Technical Committee
> elections) since the beginning.
>
> Like many others, I just thought that adjusting the cumulative vote
> rules would be a nice incremental improvement that doesn't require
> bylaws changes ("look! it's still cumulative!")... but lawyer(s)
> apparently disagree :/
>
> --
> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
>
Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
+1

Cheers,

Christopher Ferris
IBM Distinguished Engineer
IBM Software Group, Standards Strategy
email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/chrisferris
phone: +1 508 234 2986

-----Jim Jagielski <jimjag@gmail.com> wrote: -----To: Thierry Carrez <thierry@openstack.org>
From: Jim Jagielski <jimjag@gmail.com>
Date: 10/08/2013 09:00AM
Cc: "foundation@lists.openstack.org" <foundation@lists.openstack.org>
Subject: Re: [OpenStack Foundation] Individual Member Director Elections

IMO, delaying doing "the right thing" simply because it involves a bylaws change or lawyers really shouldn't be a valid excuse, especially for such a large and well-funded organization as OpenStack.

On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 8:30 AM, Thierry Carrez <thierry@openstack.org> wrote:
Jim Jagielski wrote:
> The ASF moved to STV years and years ago and never looked back. It
> prevents a board based on pure popularity and especially one based on
> ballot stuffing.

That would be my preferred solution. FWIW we have been using Condorcet
on the technical leadership side (PTL elections and Technical Committee
elections) since the beginning.

Like many others, I just thought that adjusting the cumulative vote
rules would be a nice incremental improvement that doesn't require
bylaws changes ("look! it's still cumulative!")... but lawyer(s)
apparently disagree :/

--
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

_______________________________________________
Foundation mailing list
Foundation@lists.openstack.org
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation"]http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Christopher B Ferris <chrisfer@us.ibm.com>wrote:

> +1 to Theirry's comments below.
>
> My personal opinion is that the code of conduct is an inadequate influence
> over behavior, as Theirry suggests.
>
> STV would go a ways to improving the situation, but it would not
> neutralize the voting block behavior.
>
>
It would actually go quite aways in doing so... any excess votes would go
to the next in line in that person's vote. The key point in STV is that
each person gets a *single* vote, which is transferred as needed (this is
an EXTREME simplification!), and once a person gets enough votes to be
elected, all those extra votes are basically moot, which means that a
voting block actually has somewhat limited affect.


> Quite honestly, and I know that many will rail against this, the problem
> is the temptation.
>
> Eliminate the ability for any single entity to have more than one seat on
> the board.
>
>
IMO, each Director should reflect the goals and desires of the OpenStack
community, regardless of who pays their salary. True, this is a biased
based on my own background and experience, but it works. The board should
govern the foundation, not a single entity, and when the cards are stacked
in favor of a single entity (or a cabal) being the controlling, then it's
simple human nature for that to be taken advantage of.

Isn't this the *exact* thing that the OpenStack Foundation was created to
*solve*??

That would increase the diversity of the board, which would be a Good
> Thing(tm). Yes, I have heard all the arguments for allowing the movers and
> shakers in the development community some influence at the board level. I
> get it, I really do. However, they have all the influence they need at the
> TC level, where the technical decisions are made. If they want to influence
> decisions of the board, their voice alone should be sufficient to help
> influence the other board members.
>
> The bottom line is that you can't have your cake and eat it, too. Remove
> the temptation and the behavior will normalize. No other organization that
> I know of permits multiplicity of representation on the board from a single
> entity.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Christopher Ferris
> IBM Distinguished Engineer
> IBM Software Group, Standards Strategy
> email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
> blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/chrisferris
> phone: +1 508 234 2986
>
>
> -----Thierry Carrez <thierry@openstack.org> wrote: -----
> To: foundation@lists.openstack.org
> From: Thierry Carrez <thierry@openstack.org>
> Date: 10/08/2013 06:01AM
>
> Subject: Re: [OpenStack Foundation] Individual Member Director Elections
>
> Mark McLoughlin wrote:
> > [...]
> > All your points are well made and thanks for taking the time to make
> > them.
> >
> > I do very much agree with your points about the election system and
> > favoured a change to STV but, yet, I did vote to not change the system
> > this year because:
> >
> > - there was a general feeling that relatively few perceive the
> > problem here. Comparing our ~6000 members to the numbers expressing
> > serious concerns on this mailing list, you can see why.
>
> I suspect a lot of people consider that the already-raised concerns
> should be enough to trigger a proper response and don't feel the need to
> +1 to be "counted". For the record, add me to the number expressing
> "serious concerns".
>
> > - the current system does appear to have elected committed board
> > members who act on behalf of the membership rather than their
> > affiliation. That could be a self-serving perspective, though.
>
> It's a classic dilemma with democracy: the currently-elected (who decide
> to keep or change the rules) generally don't feel like changing a system
> that worked perfectly well to elect them.
>
> > - with such a large electorate, getting a majority of a 25+% voter
> > turnout to vote for an election system change is going to require a
> > lot of awareness raising. I'm trying to imagine a massive "our
> > election system is broken, it's critical you turn out to fix it"
> > being a positive thing. I'm also concious that if we did hold a
> > vote to move to STV and it was rejected, that could be the end of
> > the matter forever.
> >
> > - I do think the code of conduct will have an influence and prevent
> > "bad" voter behaviour. I'm basing that on the strong endorsement
> > all board members appear to give the code.
>
> It's not that clear cut. Is giving all your votes to a single person
> "bad behaviour" ? Is voting only for members of your company "bad
> behaviour" ? If you answer "no" to both of the above, how can you blame
> a company that ends up with 81% of its employees voting only on company
> candidates ?
>
> > - I was in favour of the max-4-votes-per-candidate "tweak" because we
> > initially thought that would not require a bylaws change. This would
> > have had an immediate positive effect IMHO.
>
> Personally I would have made it max-1-vote-per-candidate. Forcing
> everyone to pick the 8 people they want as individual members would
> definitely and efficiently dilute block voting. And it makes perfect sense.
>
> --
> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foundation mailing list
> Foundation@lists.openstack.org
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foundation mailing list
> Foundation@lists.openstack.org
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
>
>
Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
OpenStack isn't controlled by any one company or "cabal" that I'm aware of. If there is evidence of this you know about please share it now. I'm unsure how it isn't even possible to control OpenStack. The most important part of OpenStack -- the code -- is copyrighted by hundreds (maybe over 1,000 now?) of authors all granting a license to it under Apache 2.0.

I am in favor of improving the election process and anything else that creates a more vibrant and active community. I see this in the same way I see refactoring of portions of the code. Sometimes you should refactor early to avoid future problems but when you do refactor be careful to think through what new issues could be created by the changes.

We currently have the fastest growing community in the history of open source. This is wonderful and it creates many challenges at the same time. A board of directors should be invisible to most of the community .. They should be focused on big issues, long term strategy decisions. Our board is doing an excellent job of this from my perspective. I look forward to continued growth of our community along with the debate it brings.

Sincerely,

Bret Piatt


Jim Jagielski <jimjag@gmail.com> wrote:





On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Christopher B Ferris <chrisfer@us.ibm.com<mailto:chrisfer@us.ibm.com>> wrote:
+1 to Theirry's comments below.

My personal opinion is that the code of conduct is an inadequate influence over behavior, as Theirry suggests.

STV would go a ways to improving the situation, but it would not neutralize the voting block behavior.


It would actually go quite aways in doing so... any excess votes would go to the next in line in that person's vote. The key point in STV is that each person gets a *single* vote, which is transferred as needed (this is an EXTREME simplification!), and once a person gets enough votes to be elected, all those extra votes are basically moot, which means that a voting block actually has somewhat limited affect.

Quite honestly, and I know that many will rail against this, the problem is the temptation.

Eliminate the ability for any single entity to have more than one seat on the board.


IMO, each Director should reflect the goals and desires of the OpenStack community, regardless of who pays their salary. True, this is a biased based on my own background and experience, but it works. The board should govern the foundation, not a single entity, and when the cards are stacked in favor of a single entity (or a cabal) being the controlling, then it's simple human nature for that to be taken advantage of.

Isn't this the *exact* thing that the OpenStack Foundation was created to *solve*??

That would increase the diversity of the board, which would be a Good Thing(tm). Yes, I have heard all the arguments for allowing the movers and shakers in the development community some influence at the board level. I get it, I really do. However, they have all the influence they need at the TC level, where the technical decisions are made. If they want to influence decisions of the board, their voice alone should be sufficient to help influence the other board members.

The bottom line is that you can't have your cake and eat it, too. Remove the temptation and the behavior will normalize. No other organization that I know of permits multiplicity of representation on the board from a single entity.

Cheers,

Christopher Ferris
IBM Distinguished Engineer
IBM Software Group, Standards Strategy
email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com<mailto:chrisfer@us.ibm.com>
blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/chrisferris
phone: +1 508 234 2986<tel:%2B1%20508%20234%202986>


-----Thierry Carrez <thierry@openstack.org<mailto:thierry@openstack.org>> wrote: -----
To: foundation@lists.openstack.org<mailto:foundation@lists.openstack.org>
From: Thierry Carrez <thierry@openstack.org<mailto:thierry@openstack.org>>
Date: 10/08/2013 06:01AM

Subject: Re: [OpenStack Foundation] Individual Member Director Elections

Mark McLoughlin wrote:
> [...]
> All your points are well made and thanks for taking the time to make
> them.
>
> I do very much agree with your points about the election system and
> favoured a change to STV but, yet, I did vote to not change the system
> this year because:
>
> - there was a general feeling that relatively few perceive the
> problem here. Comparing our ~6000 members to the numbers expressing
> serious concerns on this mailing list, you can see why.

I suspect a lot of people consider that the already-raised concerns
should be enough to trigger a proper response and don't feel the need to
+1 to be "counted". For the record, add me to the number expressing
"serious concerns".

> - the current system does appear to have elected committed board
> members who act on behalf of the membership rather than their
> affiliation. That could be a self-serving perspective, though.

It's a classic dilemma with democracy: the currently-elected (who decide
to keep or change the rules) generally don't feel like changing a system
that worked perfectly well to elect them.

> - with such a large electorate, getting a majority of a 25+% voter
> turnout to vote for an election system change is going to require a
> lot of awareness raising. I'm trying to imagine a massive "our
> election system is broken, it's critical you turn out to fix it"
> being a positive thing. I'm also concious that if we did hold a
> vote to move to STV and it was rejected, that could be the end of
> the matter forever.
>
> - I do think the code of conduct will have an influence and prevent
> "bad" voter behaviour. I'm basing that on the strong endorsement
> all board members appear to give the code.

It's not that clear cut. Is giving all your votes to a single person
"bad behaviour" ? Is voting only for members of your company "bad
behaviour" ? If you answer "no" to both of the above, how can you blame
a company that ends up with 81% of its employees voting only on company
candidates ?

> - I was in favour of the max-4-votes-per-candidate "tweak" because we
> initially thought that would not require a bylaws change. This would
> have had an immediate positive effect IMHO.

Personally I would have made it max-1-vote-per-candidate. Forcing
everyone to pick the 8 people they want as individual members would
definitely and efficiently dilute block voting. And it makes perfect sense.

--
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

_______________________________________________
Foundation mailing list
Foundation@lists.openstack.org<mailto:Foundation@lists.openstack.org>
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation


_______________________________________________
Foundation mailing list
Foundation@lists.openstack.org<mailto:Foundation@lists.openstack.org>
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
On 10/08/2013 06:21 AM, Tim Bell wrote:
>
> I was undecided on the 4-vs-8 option... Some members in the election
> do want to express strong support for a single candidate and this
> change would limit their ability to express themselves as they wish.

The problem is that expressing themselves that way is pure corruption
and we should explicitly want to limit that.

> We saw a significant improvement in the vote spread during the 2nd
> election compared to the first. I think we'll see further
> improvements this time round as well with the foundation membership
> growing and becoming more aware of the nature of the community.

I continue to say that we're not trying to fix a problem with the
results themselves. We are trying to fix an actual mathematical/logic
problem which is the result of a mismatch between the design of the
voting system we are using and the design that we want for our community.

It does not matter that the people elected are good people.

What matters is that Cummulative Voting is designed EXPLICITLY to
support and bolster the idea that people with more money get more voice.
That's its benefit, and it does its job very well.

We, on the other hand, would not like to express that worldview or
organizational design in our community. We are, as with many things,
trying to do something new, not just in our software, but in the way we
run things.

I'm actually not satisfied even with SVT anymore. I want Condorcet, and
I want our legal team to give us an analysis of what the actual nuts and
bolts around switching to Condorcet are - including a list of the actual
(not preceived) risks. If the risks are that we might have to defend
Condorcet as a valid voting system in court because there is no
precedent, then I think that doing that would quite honestly be an
excellent use of the foundation's sizable budget, since it directly sits
at the heart of who and what we are as a community.

If all we are is another pay to play org, then we should quite honestly
just quit and go home.


>> -----Original Message----- From: Dave Neary
>> [mailto:dneary@redhat.com] Sent: 08 October 2013 12:13 To: Thierry
>> Carrez Cc: foundation@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [OpenStack
>> Foundation] Individual Member Director Elections
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 10/08/2013 11:59 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
>>>> - I was in favour of the max-4-votes-per-candidate "tweak"
>>>> because we initially thought that would not require a bylaws
>>>> change. This would have had an immediate positive effect IMHO.
>>>
>>> Personally I would have made it max-1-vote-per-candidate.
>>> Forcing everyone to pick the 8 people they want as individual
>>> members would definitely and efficiently dilute block voting. And
>>> it makes perfect sense.
>>
>> This is the system we had for teh GNOME board of directors, and I
>> was one of the people who campaigned to have this changed, because
>> 11 equal-weight votes leads to a pure popularity contest (name
>> recognition is likely to get you in the top 11 if you've been
>> around for a while, regardless of whether you're good or not, and
>> newer candidates struggle to get elected, regardless of what they
>> bring to the table).
>>
>> Cheers, Dave.
>>
>> -- Dave Neary - Community Action and Impact Open Source and
>> Standards, Red Hat - http://community.redhat.com Ph: +33 9 50 71 55
>> 62 / Cell: +33 6 77 01 92 13
>>
>> _______________________________________________ Foundation mailing
>> list Foundation@lists.openstack.org
>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
>
> _______________________________________________ Foundation mailing
> list Foundation@lists.openstack.org
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
>

_______________________________________________
Foundation mailing list
Foundation@lists.openstack.org
http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
On 10/08/2013 09:06 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Christopher B Ferris
> <chrisfer@us.ibm.com <mailto:chrisfer@us.ibm.com>> wrote:
>
> +1 to Theirry's comments below.
>
> My personal opinion is that the code of conduct is an inadequate
> influence over behavior, as Theirry suggests.
>
> STV would go a ways to improving the situation, but it would not
> neutralize the voting block behavior.
>
>
> It would actually go quite aways in doing so... any excess votes would
> go to the next in line in that person's vote. The key point in STV is
> that each person gets a *single* vote, which is transferred as needed
> (this is an EXTREME simplification!), and once a person gets enough
> votes to be elected, all those extra votes are basically moot, which
> means that a voting block actually has somewhat limited affect.
>
>
> Quite honestly, and I know that many will rail against this, the
> problem is the temptation.
>
> Eliminate the ability for any single entity to have more than one
> seat on the board.
>
>
> IMO, each Director should reflect the goals and desires of the OpenStack
> community, regardless of who pays their salary. True, this is a biased
> based on my own background and experience, but it works. The board
> should govern the foundation, not a single entity, and when the cards
> are stacked in favor of a single entity (or a cabal) being the
> controlling, then it's simple human nature for that to be taken
> advantage of.

This is exactly correct, and we have seen this behavior quite clearly.
None of the members of the board have behaved in a corrupt manner, nor
have they behaved as second representatives of their corporations
explicit interests. In fact, the appointed representatives haven't even
done that.

Changing the voting system is PURELY about addressing a fundamental
structural bug in our governance. It it not about mitigating a current
breakage in the board membership or behavior.

> Isn't this the *exact* thing that the OpenStack Foundation was created
> to *solve*??
>
> That would increase the diversity of the board, which would be a
> Good Thing(tm). Yes, I have heard all the arguments for allowing the
> movers and shakers in the development community some influence at
> the board level.. I get it, I really do. However, they have all the
> influence they need at the TC level, where the technical decisions
> are made. If they want to influence decisions of the board, their
> voice alone should be sufficient to help influence the other board
> members.
>
> The bottom line is that you can't have your cake and eat it, too.
> Remove the temptation and the behavior will normalize. No other
> organization that I know of permits multiplicity of representation
> on the board from a single entity.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Christopher Ferris
> IBM Distinguished Engineer
> IBM Software Group, Standards Strategy
> email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com <mailto:chrisfer@us.ibm.com>
> blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/chrisferris
> phone: +1 508 234 2986 <tel:%2B1%20508%20234%202986>
>
>
> -----Thierry Carrez <thierry@openstack.org
> <mailto:thierry@openstack.org>> wrote: -----
> To: foundation@lists.openstack.org
> <mailto:foundation@lists.openstack.org>
> From: Thierry Carrez <thierry@openstack.org
> <mailto:thierry@openstack.org>>
> Date: 10/08/2013 06:01AM
>
> Subject: Re: [OpenStack Foundation] Individual Member Director Elections
>
> Mark McLoughlin wrote:
> > [...]
> > All your points are well made and thanks for taking the time to make
> > them.
> >
> > I do very much agree with your points about the election system and
> > favoured a change to STV but, yet, I did vote to not change the system
> > this year because:
> >
> > - there was a general feeling that relatively few perceive the
> > problem here. Comparing our ~6000 members to the numbers
> expressing
> > serious concerns on this mailing list, you can see why.
>
> I suspect a lot of people consider that the already-raised concerns
> should be enough to trigger a proper response and don't feel the need to
> +1 to be "counted". For the record, add me to the number expressing
> "serious concerns".
>
> > - the current system does appear to have elected committed board
> > members who act on behalf of the membership rather than their
> > affiliation. That could be a self-serving perspective, though.
>
> It's a classic dilemma with democracy: the currently-elected (who decide
> to keep or change the rules) generally don't feel like changing a system
> that worked perfectly well to elect them.
>
> > - with such a large electorate, getting a majority of a 25+% voter
> > turnout to vote for an election system change is going to
> require a
> > lot of awareness raising. I'm trying to imagine a massive "our
> > election system is broken, it's critical you turn out to fix it"
> > being a positive thing. I'm also concious that if we did hold a
> > vote to move to STV and it was rejected, that could be the end of
> > the matter forever.
> >
> > - I do think the code of conduct will have an influence and prevent
> > "bad" voter behaviour. I'm basing that on the strong endorsement
> > all board members appear to give the code..
>
> It's not that clear cut. Is giving all your votes to a single person
> "bad behaviour" ? Is voting only for members of your company "bad
> behaviour" ? If you answer "no" to both of the above, how can you blame
> a company that ends up with 81% of its employees voting only on company
> candidates ?
>
> > - I was in favour of the max-4-votes-per-candidate "tweak"
> because we
> > initially thought that would not require a bylaws change. This
> would
> > have had an immediate positive effect IMHO.
>
> Personally I would have made it max-1-vote-per-candidate. Forcing
> everyone to pick the 8 people they want as individual members would
> definitely and efficiently dilute block voting. And it makes perfect
> sense.
>
> --
> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foundation mailing list
> Foundation@lists.openstack.org <mailto:Foundation@lists.openstack.org>
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foundation mailing list
> Foundation@lists.openstack.org <mailto:Foundation@lists.openstack.org>
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foundation mailing list
> Foundation@lists.openstack.org
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
>

_______________________________________________
Foundation mailing list
Foundation@lists.openstack.org
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Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 9:49 AM, Monty Taylor <mordred@inaugust.com> wrote:

>
> What matters is that Cummulative Voting is designed EXPLICITLY to
> support and bolster the idea that people with more money get more voice.
> That's its benefit, and it does its job very well.
>
> We, on the other hand, would not like to express that worldview or
> organizational design in our community.


I find that statement troubling... just the idea that a basic tenet of
governance is something that people would not "like" the *community* to
know is somehow uncomfortable to me. What happened to the idea of open and
transparent governance?


> We are, as with many things,
> trying to do something new, not just in our software, but in the way we
> run things.
>

It's not all that new or unique and, imo, it would benefit OpenStack to
learn from others, or at least listen to those who have done stuff like
this before. Otherwise, it's very easy to justify all decisions, whether
good or bad, based on "no one has ever tried this before".
Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
On 10/08/2013 10:04 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
> On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 9:49 AM, Monty Taylor <mordred@inaugust.com
> <mailto:mordred@inaugust.com>> wrote:
>
>
> What matters is that Cummulative Voting is designed EXPLICITLY to
> support and bolster the idea that people with more money get more voice.
> That's its benefit, and it does its job very well.
>
> We, on the other hand, would not like to express that worldview or
> organizational design in our community.
>
>
> I find that statement troubling... just the idea that a basic tenet of
> governance is something that people would not "like" the *community* to
> know is somehow uncomfortable to me. What happened to the idea of open
> and transparent governance?

What? I'm talking EXACTLY about open and transparent governance.

Let me be slightly more clear in my wording.

I, as a member of the community, do not want the governance of my
community to be beholden to the ability to purchase governance seats. I
do not value that, and I do not think that most of the people in our
community value that.

With that in mind, I would like for our structure to reflect that at
every level possible.

Cummulatiave voting, as I've said time and again, is designed explicitly
to support a structural design which is completely and fundamentally
opposite from the values on which we have built OpenStack.

As such, it is a bug, and it should be fixed.

> We are, as with many things,
> trying to do something new, not just in our software, but in the way we
> run things.
>
>
> It's not all that new or unique and, imo, it would benefit OpenStack to
> learn from others, or at least listen to those who have done stuff like
> this before. Otherwise, it's very easy to justify all decisions, whether
> good or bad, based on "no one has ever tried this before".

We should absolutely learn from people before us. There are, however, a
few things where we are MASSIVELY different than our esteemed
predecessors. Notably, most projects that start as a multi-company
endeavor with no originating grass-roots community do not tend to a) be
successful at all (hi vendor consortium) or b) grow a community. We have
managed to do both. Additionally, our adherance to individual leaderless
consensus-based open governance, while not new per-se, is a bit new on
this scale and with this level of corporate involvement.

_______________________________________________
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Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Monty Taylor <mordred@inaugust.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 10/08/2013 10:04 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 9:49 AM, Monty Taylor <mordred@inaugust.com
> > <mailto:mordred@inaugust.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > What matters is that Cummulative Voting is designed EXPLICITLY to
> > support and bolster the idea that people with more money get more
> voice.
> > That's its benefit, and it does its job very well.
> >
> > We, on the other hand, would not like to express that worldview or
> > organizational design in our community.
> >
> >
> > I find that statement troubling... just the idea that a basic tenet of
> > governance is something that people would not "like" the *community* to
> > know is somehow uncomfortable to me. What happened to the idea of open
> > and transparent governance?
>
> What? I'm talking EXACTLY about open and transparent governance.
>
> Let me be slightly more clear in my wording.
>
> I, as a member of the community, do not want the governance of my
> community to be beholden to the ability to purchase governance seats. I
> do not value that, and I do not think that most of the people in our
> community value that.
>
> With that in mind, I would like for our structure to reflect that at
> every level possible.
>
> ++1.
Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 2013-10-08 at 09:52 -0400, Monty Taylor wrote:
> None of the members of the board have behaved in a corrupt manner, nor
> have they behaved as second representatives of their corporations
> explicit interests. In fact, the appointed representatives haven't even
> done that.

Completely agree with that. It goes without saying that individual
member directors should represent the community not their employer, but
I've been surprised and impressed that even the platinum and gold member
directors (who are there explicitly to represent those companies) have
not sought to push corporate interests over the project's interests.

In that respect, we have established a healthy culture on the board but
it's really only obvious if you sit in on the board meetings. I can
totally relate to being sceptical about that.

Honestly, if the board was actually filled with the kind of corporate
bickering many of us feared, it would be a lot easier to feel we would
have the necessary support to make this change.

Mark.


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Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Mark McLoughlin <markmc@redhat.com> wrote:

> In that respect, we have established a healthy culture on the board but
> it's really only obvious if you sit in on the board meetings. I can
> totally relate to being sceptical about that.
>
> Honestly, if the board was actually filled with the kind of corporate
> bickering many of us feared, it would be a lot easier to feel we would
> have the necessary support to make this change.


I would argue that this is EXACTLY the right time to consider such a change
if it is in fact warranted (I believe it is). This is when this sort of
change is not a reaction to a (possibly only perceived) ailing board
culture. I am more likely to trust the board to make a sound
reccomdation/decision/election proposal when it is healthy. I hope I am
not alone in that assessment.

dt

--

Dean Troyer
dtroyer@gmail.com
Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Dean Troyer <dtroyer@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Mark McLoughlin <markmc@redhat.com>wrote:
>
>> In that respect, we have established a healthy culture on the board but
>> it's really only obvious if you sit in on the board meetings. I can
>> totally relate to being sceptical about that.
>>
>> Honestly, if the board was actually filled with the kind of corporate
>> bickering many of us feared, it would be a lot easier to feel we would
>> have the necessary support to make this change.
>
>
> I would argue that this is EXACTLY the right time to consider such a
> change if it is in fact warranted (I believe it is). This is when this
> sort of change is not a reaction to a (possibly only perceived) ailing
> board culture. I am more likely to trust the board to make a sound
> reccomdation/decision/election proposal when it is healthy. I hope I am
> not alone in that assessment.
>

+1

Doug


>
> dt
>
> --
>
> Dean Troyer
> dtroyer@gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foundation mailing list
> Foundation@lists.openstack.org
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
>
>
Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
+1


On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Dean Troyer <dtroyer@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Mark McLoughlin <markmc@redhat.com>wrote:
>
>> In that respect, we have established a healthy culture on the board but
>> it's really only obvious if you sit in on the board meetings. I can
>> totally relate to being sceptical about that.
>>
>> Honestly, if the board was actually filled with the kind of corporate
>> bickering many of us feared, it would be a lot easier to feel we would
>> have the necessary support to make this change.
>
>
> I would argue that this is EXACTLY the right time to consider such a
> change if it is in fact warranted (I believe it is). This is when this
> sort of change is not a reaction to a (possibly only perceived) ailing
> board culture. I am more likely to trust the board to make a sound
> reccomdation/decision/election proposal when it is healthy. I hope I am
> not alone in that assessment.
>
> dt
>
> --
>
> Dean Troyer
> dtroyer@gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foundation mailing list
> Foundation@lists.openstack.org
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
>
>
Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
On Oct 8, 2013, at 9:23 AM, Monty Taylor <mordred@inaugust.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On 10/08/2013 10:04 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 9:49 AM, Monty Taylor <mordred@inaugust.com
>> <mailto:mordred@inaugust.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> What matters is that Cummulative Voting is designed EXPLICITLY to
>> support and bolster the idea that people with more money get more voice.
>> That's its benefit, and it does its job very well.
>>
>> We, on the other hand, would not like to express that worldview or
>> organizational design in our community.
>>
>>
>> I find that statement troubling... just the idea that a basic tenet of
>> governance is something that people would not "like" the *community* to
>> know is somehow uncomfortable to me. What happened to the idea of open
>> and transparent governance?
>
> What? I'm talking EXACTLY about open and transparent governance.
>
> Let me be slightly more clear in my wording.
>
> I, as a member of the community, do not want the governance of my
> community to be beholden to the ability to purchase governance seats. I
> do not value that, and I do not think that most of the people in our
> community value that.
>
> With that in mind, I would like for our structure to reflect that at
> every level possible.
>
> Cummulatiave voting, as I've said time and again, is designed explicitly
> to support a structural design which is completely and fundamentally
> opposite from the values on which we have built OpenStack.
>
> As such, it is a bug, and it should be fixed.

Just to pile on. The mere appearance or possibility of corruption in the system erodes trust. The community can't be healthy without that fundamental trust. We have an opportunity to improve the situation and the sooner we do it the better, IMHO. I had hoped we had a change lined up that would move us in the right direction in the next election cycle. Given that is not the case, I think we should put a change up for vote sooner rather than later. We have systems that are proven to be more in line with the values of most of the community. I actually like Monty's suggestion of Condorcet because it also lines up with the other voting system we already have in place. Either that, STV or even one vote per candidate would move closer to the values this community has expressed.

>
>> We are, as with many things,
>> trying to do something new, not just in our software, but in the way we
>> run things.
>>
>>
>> It's not all that new or unique and, imo, it would benefit OpenStack to
>> learn from others, or at least listen to those who have done stuff like
>> this before. Otherwise, it's very easy to justify all decisions, whether
>> good or bad, based on "no one has ever tried this before".
>
> We should absolutely learn from people before us. There are, however, a
> few things where we are MASSIVELY different than our esteemed
> predecessors. Notably, most projects that start as a multi-company
> endeavor with no originating grass-roots community do not tend to a) be
> successful at all (hi vendor consortium) or b) grow a community. We have
> managed to do both. Additionally, our adherance to individual leaderless
> consensus-based open governance, while not new per-se, is a bit new on
> this scale and with this level of corporate involvement.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Foundation mailing list
> Foundation@lists.openstack.org
> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foundation
Re: Individual Member Director Elections [ In reply to ]
As someone who usually stays quiet, I want to come in on this.

I don't claim to have the answers (though I agree with Thierry on his
arguments), but you raise a lot of good points/questions.

Richard

Sent by mobile; excuse my brevity.

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