Mailing List Archive

Ah ok, fair enough. Good to know. Well, if there's anything we can do in
terms of advocacy, let me know.

-Michael


On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Noel Butler <noel.butler@ausics.net> wrote:

> On 15/06/2016 16:13, Michael Oghia wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 9:08 AM, Noel Butler <noel.butler@ausics.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On 15/06/2016 15:57, Michael Oghia wrote:
>> If HE started dishing out tunnels this week, maybe it could be addressed,
>> script/database changes to ensure U.S. residents get a slice of different
>> pie, that netflix could whitelist, but since its been going for many many
>> years, that is not possible, not easily possible anyway without dropping
>> and changing all existing U.S. users which would bring about a tsunami of
>> complaints for other reasons, so no, HE wont be doing anything in the
>> future :)
>>
>>
> For what it's worth, I'm not well-versed on this issue or familiar with
> any past action on it. But with that said, I understand the risks involved
> in terms of disrupting services, but surely *something *must be able to
> be done about this.
>
> Thats up to netflix - they are the ones blocking. The problem will
> diminish over time when end user ISP's go native IPv6, then they want need
> a HE tunnel service.
> --
> If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you best
> first read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/
>

On Wed Jun 15, 2016 at 08:57:03AM +0300, Michael Oghia wrote:
> While following this thread, it occurred to me that one issue not being
> discussed is Netflix's encouragement to revert to IPv4

They could do that better, instead of just telling users to turn off v6
they might explain that it's because they are using a tunnel/vpn and
that they should ask their ISP for native IPv6 instead.

I don't know the numbers involved but they may have decided that a few
tunnel users should be able to figure that for themselves if they
already figured out how to set up a tunnel. Or they are just giving
the lazy answer (and expect ISPs to sort it out when they roll out
native IPv6)

This has all been done to death on the nanog list (my contribution to
the noise is below)

> Thus, the question I pose to the community is this: are there any redress
> mechanisms we can use to address this situation at the core of the issue,
> i.e., with Netflix, and help them work out solutions -- like some of the
> ones offered so far -- to not discourage IPv6? This can include meetings,
> mobilizing networks, relationship building, outreach, etc.

I suspect nothing will change (speaking for netflix while guessing
the likely reason so there may be more to this)

brandon

----- Begin Included Message -----
From nanog-bounces@nanog.org Sat Jun 4 11:52:29 2016
From: Brandon Butterworth <brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk>
To: cryptographrix@gmail.com, owen@delong.com
Subject: Re: Netflix VPN detection - actual engineer needed
Cc: nanog@nanog.org

> On Jun 3, 2016, at 17:35 , Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
> Letâ's face it folks, if we want to encourage Netflix to tell the
> content providers to give up the silly geo-shit, then we have to
> stop patronizing channels that do silly geo-shit.

Correct but it needs a lot to do that.

We do the geo thing. I didn't want us to and we didn't for a few years
but once the geo people had convinced rights owners it was a viable
thing they forced people buying their content to use it. I tried to
stop it here and failed but it's never over, people are starting to
realise it's silly to annoy people who want your services, you just
need to find a way to allow them

To be fair to Netflix the tunnel blocking will likely have been driven
by their content suppliers asserting their contractual rights to not
allow access from certain places.

Their content suppliers will have seen people boasting how they use
tunnels to get round them and tunnel suppliers advertising their
services for doing so. Blame them for the blocking as while it was a
personal thing they wouldn't have been bothered much.

As usual a few people see an opportunity to make money off something
and in the process break it for everyone

btw the list of tunnel providers was likely supplied by the same
geo ip people, some sell that as an extra.

brandon
----- End Included Message -----

Hi Brandon,

Thank you for your insight on this and for linking to your past statement.
It would be great if someone from Netflix could get involved in the
discussion. Has this ever happened before? Of course, speaking among
ourselves without their input or without them being invested in any process
that seeks to change it is, frankly, pointless. From what I gather from
your message, at least one improvement could be to technical support.

Has anyone ever reached out to someone or one of their contacts who works
with Netflix, especially someone regarding this issue/area?

Best,
-Michael


On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 11:12 AM, Brandon Butterworth <brandon@bogons.net>
wrote:

> On Wed Jun 15, 2016 at 08:57:03AM +0300, Michael Oghia wrote:
> > While following this thread, it occurred to me that one issue not being
> > discussed is Netflix's encouragement to revert to IPv4
>
> They could do that better, instead of just telling users to turn off v6
> they might explain that it's because they are using a tunnel/vpn and
> that they should ask their ISP for native IPv6 instead.
>
> I don't know the numbers involved but they may have decided that a few
> tunnel users should be able to figure that for themselves if they
> already figured out how to set up a tunnel. Or they are just giving
> the lazy answer (and expect ISPs to sort it out when they roll out
> native IPv6)
>
> This has all been done to death on the nanog list (my contribution to
> the noise is below)
>
> > Thus, the question I pose to the community is this: are there any redress
> > mechanisms we can use to address this situation at the core of the issue,
> > i.e., with Netflix, and help them work out solutions -- like some of the
> > ones offered so far -- to not discourage IPv6? This can include meetings,
> > mobilizing networks, relationship building, outreach, etc.
>
> I suspect nothing will change (speaking for netflix while guessing
> the likely reason so there may be more to this)
>
> brandon
>
> ----- Begin Included Message -----
> From nanog-bounces@nanog.org Sat Jun 4 11:52:29 2016
> From: Brandon Butterworth <brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk>
> To: cryptographrix@gmail.com, owen@delong.com
> Subject: Re: Netflix VPN detection - actual engineer needed
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org
>
> > On Jun 3, 2016, at 17:35 , Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
> > Letâ's face it folks, if we want to encourage Netflix to tell the
> > content providers to give up the silly geo-shit, then we have to
> > stop patronizing channels that do silly geo-shit.
>
> Correct but it needs a lot to do that.
>
> We do the geo thing. I didn't want us to and we didn't for a few years
> but once the geo people had convinced rights owners it was a viable
> thing they forced people buying their content to use it. I tried to
> stop it here and failed but it's never over, people are starting to
> realise it's silly to annoy people who want your services, you just
> need to find a way to allow them
>
> To be fair to Netflix the tunnel blocking will likely have been driven
> by their content suppliers asserting their contractual rights to not
> allow access from certain places.
>
> Their content suppliers will have seen people boasting how they use
> tunnels to get round them and tunnel suppliers advertising their
> services for doing so. Blame them for the blocking as while it was a
> personal thing they wouldn't have been bothered much.
>
> As usual a few people see an opportunity to make money off something
> and in the process break it for everyone
>
> btw the list of tunnel providers was likely supplied by the same
> geo ip people, some sell that as an extra.
>
> brandon
> ----- End Included Message -----
>
>
>

Apologies if this has already been suggested, but...

How hard would it be for HE to provide a an API for Netflix to query for HE prefixes?

For any given v6 address, HE should have a mapping for the associated (IPv4) tunnel source address readily available. Netflix would query HE and in turn perform the geolocation check based on the tunnel source.

Sure, there's a little work to do here by HE and Netflix, including a UI for user opt-in/out, but for the "honest" tunnel user not trying to circumvent the system, perhaps it's a constructive way forward? (and generally applicable for other providers doing the same)

- Mark

> On Jun 15, 2016, at 10:18, Michael Oghia <mike.oghia@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Brandon,
>
> Thank you for your insight on this and for linking to your past statement. It would be great if someone from Netflix could get involved in the discussion. Has this ever happened before? Of course, speaking among ourselves without their input or without them being invested in any process that seeks to change it is, frankly, pointless. From what I gather from your message, at least one improvement could be to technical support.
>
> Has anyone ever reached out to someone or one of their contacts who works with Netflix, especially someone regarding this issue/area?
>
> Best,
> -Michael
>
>
>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 11:12 AM, Brandon Butterworth <brandon@bogons.net> wrote:
>> On Wed Jun 15, 2016 at 08:57:03AM +0300, Michael Oghia wrote:
>> > While following this thread, it occurred to me that one issue not being
>> > discussed is Netflix's encouragement to revert to IPv4
>>
>> They could do that better, instead of just telling users to turn off v6
>> they might explain that it's because they are using a tunnel/vpn and
>> that they should ask their ISP for native IPv6 instead.
>>
>> I don't know the numbers involved but they may have decided that a few
>> tunnel users should be able to figure that for themselves if they
>> already figured out how to set up a tunnel. Or they are just giving
>> the lazy answer (and expect ISPs to sort it out when they roll out
>> native IPv6)
>>
>> This has all been done to death on the nanog list (my contribution to
>> the noise is below)
>>
>> > Thus, the question I pose to the community is this: are there any redress
>> > mechanisms we can use to address this situation at the core of the issue,
>> > i.e., with Netflix, and help them work out solutions -- like some of the
>> > ones offered so far -- to not discourage IPv6? This can include meetings,
>> > mobilizing networks, relationship building, outreach, etc.
>>
>> I suspect nothing will change (speaking for netflix while guessing
>> the likely reason so there may be more to this)
>>
>> brandon
>>
>> ----- Begin Included Message -----
>> >From nanog-bounces@nanog.org Sat Jun 4 11:52:29 2016
>> From: Brandon Butterworth <brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk>
>> To: cryptographrix@gmail.com, owen@delong.com
>> Subject: Re: Netflix VPN detection - actual engineer needed
>> Cc: nanog@nanog.org
>>
>> > On Jun 3, 2016, at 17:35 , Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>> > Letâ's face it folks, if we want to encourage Netflix to tell the
>> > content providers to give up the silly geo-shit, then we have to
>> > stop patronizing channels that do silly geo-shit.
>>
>> Correct but it needs a lot to do that.
>>
>> We do the geo thing. I didn't want us to and we didn't for a few years
>> but once the geo people had convinced rights owners it was a viable
>> thing they forced people buying their content to use it. I tried to
>> stop it here and failed but it's never over, people are starting to
>> realise it's silly to annoy people who want your services, you just
>> need to find a way to allow them
>>
>> To be fair to Netflix the tunnel blocking will likely have been driven
>> by their content suppliers asserting their contractual rights to not
>> allow access from certain places.
>>
>> Their content suppliers will have seen people boasting how they use
>> tunnels to get round them and tunnel suppliers advertising their
>> services for doing so. Blame them for the blocking as while it was a
>> personal thing they wouldn't have been bothered much.
>>
>> As usual a few people see an opportunity to make money off something
>> and in the process break it for everyone
>>
>> btw the list of tunnel providers was likely supplied by the same
>> geo ip people, some sell that as an extra.
>>
>> brandon
>> ----- End Included Message -----
>

Hi Mark,

That is a good and constructive suggestion. Forgive me if I'm a broken
record, though, when I ask if Netflix is involved at any level or even
aware of this discussion? If not, it seems advantageous to me to invite
them to be included.

Best,
-Michael


On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 11:57 AM, Townsley.net <mark@townsley.net> wrote:

>
> Apologies if this has already been suggested, but...
>
> How hard would it be for HE to provide a an API for Netflix to query for
> HE prefixes?
>
> For any given v6 address, HE should have a mapping for the associated
> (IPv4) tunnel source address readily available. Netflix would query HE and
> in turn perform the geolocation check based on the tunnel source.
>
> Sure, there's a little work to do here by HE and Netflix, including a UI
> for user opt-in/out, but for the "honest" tunnel user not trying to
> circumvent the system, perhaps it's a constructive way forward? (and
> generally applicable for other providers doing the same)
>
> - Mark
>
> On Jun 15, 2016, at 10:18, Michael Oghia <mike.oghia@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Brandon,
>
> Thank you for your insight on this and for linking to your past statement.
> It would be great if someone from Netflix could get involved in the
> discussion. Has this ever happened before? Of course, speaking among
> ourselves without their input or without them being invested in any process
> that seeks to change it is, frankly, pointless. From what I gather from
> your message, at least one improvement could be to technical support.
>
> Has anyone ever reached out to someone or one of their contacts who works
> with Netflix, especially someone regarding this issue/area?
>
> Best,
> -Michael
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 11:12 AM, Brandon Butterworth <brandon@bogons.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed Jun 15, 2016 at 08:57:03AM +0300, Michael Oghia wrote:
>> > While following this thread, it occurred to me that one issue not being
>> > discussed is Netflix's encouragement to revert to IPv4
>>
>> They could do that better, instead of just telling users to turn off v6
>> they might explain that it's because they are using a tunnel/vpn and
>> that they should ask their ISP for native IPv6 instead.
>>
>> I don't know the numbers involved but they may have decided that a few
>> tunnel users should be able to figure that for themselves if they
>> already figured out how to set up a tunnel. Or they are just giving
>> the lazy answer (and expect ISPs to sort it out when they roll out
>> native IPv6)
>>
>> This has all been done to death on the nanog list (my contribution to
>> the noise is below)
>>
>> > Thus, the question I pose to the community is this: are there any
>> redress
>> > mechanisms we can use to address this situation at the core of the
>> issue,
>> > i.e., with Netflix, and help them work out solutions -- like some of the
>> > ones offered so far -- to not discourage IPv6? This can include
>> meetings,
>> > mobilizing networks, relationship building, outreach, etc.
>>
>> I suspect nothing will change (speaking for netflix while guessing
>> the likely reason so there may be more to this)
>>
>> brandon
>>
>> ----- Begin Included Message -----
>> >From nanog-bounces@nanog.org Sat Jun 4 11:52:29 2016
>> From: Brandon Butterworth <brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk>
>> To: cryptographrix@gmail.com, owen@delong.com
>> Subject: Re: Netflix VPN detection - actual engineer needed
>> Cc: nanog@nanog.org
>>
>> > On Jun 3, 2016, at 17:35 , Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>> > Letâ's face it folks, if we want to encourage Netflix to tell the
>> > content providers to give up the silly geo-shit, then we have to
>> > stop patronizing channels that do silly geo-shit.
>>
>> Correct but it needs a lot to do that.
>>
>> We do the geo thing. I didn't want us to and we didn't for a few years
>> but once the geo people had convinced rights owners it was a viable
>> thing they forced people buying their content to use it. I tried to
>> stop it here and failed but it's never over, people are starting to
>> realise it's silly to annoy people who want your services, you just
>> need to find a way to allow them
>>
>> To be fair to Netflix the tunnel blocking will likely have been driven
>> by their content suppliers asserting their contractual rights to not
>> allow access from certain places.
>>
>> Their content suppliers will have seen people boasting how they use
>> tunnels to get round them and tunnel suppliers advertising their
>> services for doing so. Blame them for the blocking as while it was a
>> personal thing they wouldn't have been bothered much.
>>
>> As usual a few people see an opportunity to make money off something
>> and in the process break it for everyone
>>
>> btw the list of tunnel providers was likely supplied by the same
>> geo ip people, some sell that as an extra.
>>
>> brandon
>> ----- End Included Message -----
>>
>>
>>
>

Hi,

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 10:57:42AM +0200, Townsley.net wrote:
> Apologies if this has already been suggested, but...
>
> How hard would it be for HE to provide a an API for Netflix to query for HE prefixes?
>
> For any given v6 address, HE should have a mapping for the associated (IPv4) tunnel source address readily available. Netflix would query HE and in turn perform the geolocation check based on the tunnel source.
>
> Sure, there's a little work to do here by HE and Netflix, including a UI for user opt-in/out, but for the "honest" tunnel user not trying to circumvent the system, perhaps it's a constructive way forward? (and generally applicable for other providers doing the same)

The interesting question is why they hand out v6 addresses in the first
place - I'd assume that Netflix is doing the same global DNS content
steering thing as all the other big content networks, so they should know
where the user is coming from... and if the DNS query is coming from a
(v4) access network in the US, it seems silly to disallow access to the
v6 server *they have told the client to use* later on.

Gert Doering
-- NetMaster
--
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279

In your letter dated Wed, 15 Jun 2016 11:12:19 +0200 you wrote:
>The interesting question is why they hand out v6 addresses in the first
>place - I'd assume that Netflix is doing the same global DNS content
>steering thing as all the other big content networks, so they should know
>where the user is coming from... and if the DNS query is coming from a
>(v4) access network in the US, it seems silly to disallow access to the
>v6 server *they have told the client to use* later on.

Note that people are actively trying to bypass whatever geo restrictions
netflix puts in place. And of course, netflix wants to avoid blocking
legitimate users as much as possible.

So to the extent that DNS is used to implement geo blocking, people will
use DNS resolvers in the desired country to avoid the blocks.

Of course, in the case of HE tunnels, netflix could just add an IPv4-only
option to the users' profiles and redirect people to an IPv4-only server.
I guess they can just offer the redirect as an option whenever they
show the VPN-detected banner for an HE address.

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, Michael Oghia wrote:

> That is a good and constructive suggestion. Forgive me if I'm a broken
> record, though, when I ask if Netflix is involved at any level or even
> aware of this discussion? If not, it seems advantageous to me to invite
> them to be included.

Every point that has been made on this list so far, has already been made
in the huge thread on nanog-l. I would take for granted that Netflix is
aware of that one.

--
Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se

They have engineers on the NANOG list (they even have presenters at the NANOG conference), so yes one must assume they are aware of the discussion.


> On 15/06/2016, at 9:00 pm, Michael Oghia <mike.oghia@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> That is a good and constructive suggestion. Forgive me if I'm a broken record, though, when I ask if Netflix is involved at any level or even aware of this discussion? If not, it seems advantageous to me to invite them to be included.
>
> Best,
> -Michael

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Pete Mundy <pete@fiberphone.co.nz> wrote:

>
> They have engineers on the NANOG list (they even have presenters at the
> NANOG conference), so yes one must assume they are aware of the discussion.
>


Thank you Pete and Mikael for clarifying, that's basically what I wanted to
know.

Hi Mark and list,

"Townsley.net" <mark@townsley.net> writes:

> Apologies if this has already been suggested, but...
>
> How hard would it be for HE to provide a an API for Netflix to query
> for HE prefixes?
>
> [...]

if this was just an issue between HE and Netflix, then this might be an
option. But we have way more parties involved on either side, so such
an approach simply doesn't scale. If we wanted to do something about
this, then it should be done at an IETF or W3C or whatever level
instead.

That said, I personally wouldn't bother to put any effort into
developing, deploying and running a technology that just serves some to
increase their profit based on geographic discrimination.


Cheers,

Benedikt

--
Benedikt Stockebrand, Stepladder IT Training+Consulting
Dipl.-Inform. http://www.stepladder-it.com/

Business Grade IPv6 --- Consulting, Training, Projects

BIVBlog---Benedikt's IT Video Blog: http://www.stepladder-it.com/bivblog/