Mailing List Archive

> On Jun 12, 2016, at 15:46, Robert Hosford <rhosford@certifiednets.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>
> Netflix Marty

Not to be confused with Marty Hannigan of Akamai.

IPv6 <3,

-M<

Robert Hosford wrote:
> Unless you use HE like I do. Nice Job Netflix.....

you should demand a full refund from HE.

Nick

Robert Hosford <rhosford@certifiednets.com> writes:

> Unless you use HE like I do. Nice Job Netflix.....

Why are so many people complain now? I had this discussion a couple of
years back (last IETF Meeting in Berlin).

HE can't guarantee that a tunnel terminating in the US is not used by
someone outside the US. Netflix has to guarantee the content owners that
US content will only be available to US customers. So Netflix is
blocking HE tunnels in order to buy content for their customers.

The problem is with the content industry[1] fearing to loose some bucks
because a handful of nerds want to watch movies / TV shows in the
original version ahead of time.

Jens
[1] Those are also the people putting "copying DVDs is illegal" videos
on DVDs which you are forced to watch using a normal TV/DVD player
combination. People who are just copying the DVD will leave out such
trailer.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 |
| http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@quux.de | --------------- |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Jens Link <lists@quux.de> writes:
> The problem is with the content industry[1] fearing to loose some bucks
> because a handful of nerds want to watch movies / TV shows in the
> original version ahead of time.

A few nerds is unlikely to trigger it, it's the people making an
industry of bypassing their controls (and profiting from it)

They decided tunnels are bad, HE happens to have some which may or may
not be a significant quantity. Nothing to do with nerdism

Anyway, time everyone started doing native

brandon

On 13/06/2016 09:02, Jens Link wrote:
> Robert Hosford <rhosford@certifiednets.com> writes:
>
>> Unless you use HE like I do. Nice Job Netflix.....
>
> Why are so many people complain now? I had this discussion a couple of
> years back (last IETF Meeting in Berlin).
>
> HE can't guarantee that a tunnel terminating in the US is not used by
> someone outside the US. Netflix has to guarantee the content owners that
> US content will only be available to US customers. So Netflix is
> blocking HE tunnels in order to buy content for their customers.
>
> The problem is with the content industry[1] fearing to loose some bucks
> because a handful of nerds want to watch movies / TV shows in the
> original version ahead of time.

It's a bit more subtle than that. A user of a pay-per-view service will
have to pay anyway, but in the country where her tunnel terminates.
(It may need a fictitious billing address with a valid ZIP code.)
Netflix gets its money, pays the royalty to the copyright owner (who
possibly even pays residuals to the artists, but also possibly rips them
off) and takes its profit.

Who loses? The scumbag copyright parasite in the country where the tunnel
originates, who has signed a deal to overcharge local residents for the
service that Netflix offers more cheaply in the US. Sometimes, that scumbag
is also called Netflix - because they can extract more free money that way,
by pretending to operate in, say, New Zealand although all they are really
doing is billing based on geolocation. So they are motivated to detect
this heinous abuse.

So this is actually nothing to do with v6 or HE. TunnelBear users suffer the
same way, for example, once the content providers identify the termination
address as suspect.

Brian

>
> Jens
> [1] Those are also the people putting "copying DVDs is illegal" videos
> on DVDs which you are forced to watch using a normal TV/DVD player
> combination. People who are just copying the DVD will leave out such
> trailer.
>

On 13/06/2016 06:46, Robert Hosford wrote:
>
>
> Unless you use HE like I do. Nice Job Netflix.....
>
> Robert

Do you use HE tunnel? or native ipv6? netflix are blocking HE
tunnelbroker services because of fun police copyright cops narky about
geoblock avoidance, why should you pay the same cheap price as in US
when they can make you pay 25-40% more because your from another country
for exact same thing ;)

this has recently started which leads me to think this is your problem

--
If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you best
first read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016, Robert Hosford wrote:

> Hi,
>
> First time caller long time listener. :)

http://seclists.org/nanog/2016/Jun/24

There is a thread with hundreds of email on nanog-l on this topic. I think
everything that can be said on the topic has already been said there.

--
Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se

On 12/06/16 23:02, Jens Link wrote:

> HE can't guarantee that a tunnel terminating in the US is not used by
> someone outside the US.

In theory that applies for every IP-address.

Why doesn't NetFlix simply look at the subscriber-information instead of
doing geolocation based on IP-addresses.

--
Marco

Marco Davids <mdavids@forfun.net> writes:

> Why doesn't NetFlix simply look at the subscriber-information instead of
> doing geolocation based on IP-addresses.

Why can't I buy DVDs in the US and watch them in my European DVD Player?

Jens
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Foelderichstr. 40 | 13595 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 |
| http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink@quux.de | --------------- |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 13/Jun/16 11:15, Jens Link wrote:

> Why can't I buy DVDs in the US and watch them in my European DVD Player?

More specifically, why can't you buy DVD's in the U.S. and watch them in
Europe?

Mark.

> > Why can't I buy DVDs in the US and watch them in my European DVD Player?
>
> More specifically, why can't you buy DVD's in the U.S. and watch them in
> Europe?

You can, of course, if you have a "region free" DVD player. They aren't
hard to find.

Steinar Haug, AS2116

Jens Link wrote:
> Why can't I buy DVDs in the US and watch them in my European DVD Player?

if you can't do that, you bought the wrong DVD player.

Nick

On 12/06/2016 22:02, Jens Link wrote:

> [1] Those are also the people putting "copying DVDs is illegal" videos
> on DVDs which you are forced to watch using a normal TV/DVD player
> combination. People who are just copying the DVD will leave out such
> trailer.

You wouldn't steal a BABY!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALZZx1xmAzg for the uninitiated.

On 13/Jun/16 11:54, sthaug@nethelp.no wrote:

> You can, of course, if you have a "region free" DVD player. They aren't
> hard to find.

And that's my point.

It was hard enough policing region coding on DVD and BD players/content.
It's basically pointless on packets.

Mark.

Mark Tinka <mark.tinka@seacom.mu> writes:

> On 13/Jun/16 11:54, sthaug@nethelp.no wrote:
>
>> You can, of course, if you have a "region free" DVD player. They aren't
>> hard to find.
>
> And that's my point.
>
> It was hard enough policing region coding on DVD and BD players/content.
> It's basically pointless on packets.

Maybe we can repurpose the evil bit for this? I every transit provider
simply sets the evil bit when a packet crosses a border, then it should
be easy to filter out those packets later.

Who will be the first content provider to demand such a solution? Just
step forward and prove that you are a technology leader!


Bjørn

On 13/Jun/16 15:23, Bjørn Mork wrote:

> Maybe we can repurpose the evil bit for this? I every transit provider
> simply sets the evil bit when a packet crosses a border, then it should
> be easy to filter out those packets later.

Being transit-free has never been better, then :-).

Mark.

On 6/12/16 11:49 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
> There is a thread with hundreds of email on nanog-l on this topic. I
> think everything that can be said on the topic has already been said there.


It's just a mess of a thread that can only see a technical problem to a
non-technical issue. A lot of people seem unable to cope with the idea
that many content owners that want to enforce geographic restrictions on
where content is available aren't a technically oriented.

~Seth

> On 13/06/2016, at 10:30 pm, Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org> wrote:
>
> Jens Link wrote:
>> Why can't I buy DVDs in the US and watch them in my European DVD Player?
>
> if you can't do that, you bought the wrong DVD player.

And if you can't watch your streaming video over HE tunnels then you bought access to the wrong streaming service ;)

Noel,

. I have been using HE for almost 10 years and they have been awesome. Verizon FIOS doesn't offer IPv6 or I would go native. However I am dual stacked on my Verizon phone, works fine with Netflix.

I see this blocking as being laziness on the part of Netflix. When the account is setup a geo location tag can be setup that this is a US based IPv6 tunnel.

I am in the US and all of my traffic is in the US.

I like HE because I have noticed that my IPv6 traffic over HE is faster than my IPv4 over Verizon's network. And it is free.

C:\Windows\system32>ping www.google.com

Pinging www.google.com [2607:f8b0:4004:80e::2004] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 2607:f8b0:4004:80e::2004: time=1ms
Reply from 2607:f8b0:4004:80e::2004: time=5ms
Reply from 2607:f8b0:4004:80e::2004: time=6ms
Reply from 2607:f8b0:4004:80e::2004: time=9ms

See I just love HE.

Oh I also pay for the HD Netflix and it buffers and still looks like crap. I had better Netflix performance over HE than I do with Verizon.

For a company that consumes so much of the Internet blocking us is just a slap in the face.

Thanks,

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: ipv6-ops-bounces+rhosford=certifiednets.com@lists.cluenet.de [mailto:ipv6-ops-bounces+rhosford=certifiednets.com@lists.cluenet.de] On Behalf Of Noel Butler
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2016 11:04 PM
To: ipv6-ops@lists.cluenet.de
Subject: Re: Netflix hates IPv6

On 13/06/2016 06:46, Robert Hosford wrote:
>
>
> Unless you use HE like I do. Nice Job Netflix.....
>
> Robert

Do you use HE tunnel? or native ipv6? netflix are blocking HE tunnelbroker services because of fun police copyright cops narky about geoblock avoidance, why should you pay the same cheap price as in US when they can make you pay 25-40% more because your from another country for exact same thing ;)

this has recently started which leads me to think this is your problem

--
If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you best first read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/

Robert,

Yes it's regrettable, but HE don't allocate ipv6 ranges on their TB
service by country, I too use them, and our ranges could be side by
side, and thats how netflix sees it, so they block HE's tunnels ipv6
ranges. I'm not sure if they also block ipv6 ranges that are for HE
native use, like in their colos etc, possibly they do that too.

Cheers


On 15/06/2016 09:42, Robert Hosford wrote:
> Noel,
>
> . I have been using HE for almost 10 years and they have been awesome.
> Verizon FIOS doesn't offer IPv6 or I would go native. However I am
> dual stacked on my Verizon phone, works fine with Netflix.
>
> I see this blocking as being laziness on the part of Netflix. When
> the account is setup a geo location tag can be setup that this is a US
> based IPv6 tunnel.
>
> I am in the US and all of my traffic is in the US.
>
> I like HE because I have noticed that my IPv6 traffic over HE is
> faster than my IPv4 over Verizon's network. And it is free.
>
> C:\Windows\system32>ping www.google.com
>
> Pinging www.google.com [2607:f8b0:4004:80e::2004] with 32 bytes of
> data:
> Reply from 2607:f8b0:4004:80e::2004: time=1ms
> Reply from 2607:f8b0:4004:80e::2004: time=5ms
> Reply from 2607:f8b0:4004:80e::2004: time=6ms
> Reply from 2607:f8b0:4004:80e::2004: time=9ms
>
> See I just love HE.
>
> Oh I also pay for the HD Netflix and it buffers and still looks like
> crap. I had better Netflix performance over HE than I do with Verizon.
>
> For a company that consumes so much of the Internet blocking us is
> just a slap in the face.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Robert
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ipv6-ops-bounces+rhosford=certifiednets.com@lists.cluenet.de
> [mailto:ipv6-ops-bounces+rhosford=certifiednets.com@lists.cluenet.de]
> On Behalf Of Noel Butler
> Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2016 11:04 PM
> To: ipv6-ops@lists.cluenet.de
> Subject: Re: Netflix hates IPv6
>
> On 13/06/2016 06:46, Robert Hosford wrote:
>>
>>
>> Unless you use HE like I do. Nice Job Netflix.....
>>
>> Robert
>
> Do you use HE tunnel? or native ipv6? netflix are blocking HE
> tunnelbroker services because of fun police copyright cops narky about
> geoblock avoidance, why should you pay the same cheap price as in US
> when they can make you pay 25-40% more because your from another
> country for exact same thing ;)
>
> this has recently started which leads me to think this is your problem
>
> --
> If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you
> best first read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/

--
If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you best
first read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/

Hi all,

While following this thread, it occurred to me that one issue not being
discussed is Netflix's encouragement to revert to IPv4. Of course, that is
fairly easy with NAT, but the principle is one that makes me feel very
uncomfortable. We work so hard to see IPv6 expanded, it feels like a small
setback -- or at least a jab -- coming from such a large company.

Thus, the question I pose to the community is this: are there any redress
mechanisms we can use to address this situation at the core of the issue,
i.e., with Netflix, and help them work out solutions -- like some of the
ones offered so far -- to not discourage IPv6? This can include meetings,
mobilizing networks, relationship building, outreach, etc.

Best,
-Michael
__________________

Michael J. Oghia
Independent consultant & editor
2015 ISOC IGF Ambassador

Istanbul, Turkey
Skype: mikeoghia
Twitter <https://www.twitter.com/MikeOghia> *|* LinkedIn
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikeoghia>

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 3:06 AM, Noel Butler <noel.butler@ausics.net> wrote:

> Robert,
>
> Yes it's regrettable, but HE don't allocate ipv6 ranges on their TB
> service by country, I too use them, and our ranges could be side by side,
> and thats how netflix sees it, so they block HE's tunnels ipv6 ranges. I'm
> not sure if they also block ipv6 ranges that are for HE native use, like in
> their colos etc, possibly they do that too.
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> On 15/06/2016 09:42, Robert Hosford wrote:
>
>> Noel,
>>
>> . I have been using HE for almost 10 years and they have been awesome.
>> Verizon FIOS doesn't offer IPv6 or I would go native. However I am
>> dual stacked on my Verizon phone, works fine with Netflix.
>>
>> I see this blocking as being laziness on the part of Netflix. When
>> the account is setup a geo location tag can be setup that this is a US
>> based IPv6 tunnel.
>>
>> I am in the US and all of my traffic is in the US.
>>
>> I like HE because I have noticed that my IPv6 traffic over HE is
>> faster than my IPv4 over Verizon's network. And it is free.
>>
>> C:\Windows\system32>ping www.google.com
>>
>> Pinging www.google.com [2607:f8b0:4004:80e::2004] with 32 bytes of data:
>> Reply from 2607:f8b0:4004:80e::2004: time=1ms
>> Reply from 2607:f8b0:4004:80e::2004: time=5ms
>> Reply from 2607:f8b0:4004:80e::2004: time=6ms
>> Reply from 2607:f8b0:4004:80e::2004: time=9ms
>>
>> See I just love HE.
>>
>> Oh I also pay for the HD Netflix and it buffers and still looks like
>> crap. I had better Netflix performance over HE than I do with Verizon.
>>
>> For a company that consumes so much of the Internet blocking us is
>> just a slap in the face.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ipv6-ops-bounces+rhosford=certifiednets.com@lists.cluenet.de
>> [mailto:ipv6-ops-bounces+rhosford=certifiednets.com@lists.cluenet.de]
>> On Behalf Of Noel Butler
>> Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2016 11:04 PM
>> To: ipv6-ops@lists.cluenet.de
>> Subject: Re: Netflix hates IPv6
>>
>> On 13/06/2016 06:46, Robert Hosford wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Unless you use HE like I do. Nice Job Netflix.....
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>
>> Do you use HE tunnel? or native ipv6? netflix are blocking HE
>> tunnelbroker services because of fun police copyright cops narky about
>> geoblock avoidance, why should you pay the same cheap price as in US
>> when they can make you pay 25-40% more because your from another
>> country for exact same thing ;)
>>
>> this has recently started which leads me to think this is your problem
>>
>> --
>> If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you
>> best first read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/
>>
>
> --
> If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you best
> first read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/
>

On 15/06/2016 15:57, Michael Oghia wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> While following this thread, it occurred to me that one issue not being discussed is Netflix's encouragement to revert to IPv4. Of course, that is fairly easy with NAT, but the principle is one that makes me feel very uncomfortable. We work so hard to see IPv6 expanded, it feels like a small setback -- or at least a jab -- coming from such a large company.
>
> Thus, the question I pose to the community is this: are there any redress mechanisms we can use to address this situation at the core of the issue, i.e., with Netflix, and help them work out solutions -- like some of the ones offered so far -- to not discourage IPv6? This can include meetings, mobilizing networks, relationship building, outreach, etc.

If HE started dishing out tunnels this week, maybe it could be
addressed, script/database changes to ensure U.S. residents get a slice
of different pie, that netflix could whitelist, but since its been going
for many many years, that is not possible, not easily possible anyway
without dropping and changing all existing U.S. users which would bring
about a tsunami of complaints for other reasons, so no, HE wont be doing
anything in the future :)

--

If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you
best first read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 9:08 AM, Noel Butler <noel.butler@ausics.net> wrote:

> On 15/06/2016 15:57, Michael Oghia wrote:
> If HE started dishing out tunnels this week, maybe it could be addressed,
> script/database changes to ensure U.S. residents get a slice of different
> pie, that netflix could whitelist, but since its been going for many many
> years, that is not possible, not easily possible anyway without dropping
> and changing all existing U.S. users which would bring about a tsunami of
> complaints for other reasons, so no, HE wont be doing anything in the
> future :)
>
>

For what it's worth, I'm not well-versed on this issue or familiar with any
past action on it. But with that said, I understand the risks involved in
terms of disrupting services, but surely *something *must be able to be
done about this.

On 15/06/2016 16:13, Michael Oghia wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 9:08 AM, Noel Butler <noel.butler@ausics.net> wrote:
>
>> On 15/06/2016 15:57, Michael Oghia wrote:
>>
>> If HE started dishing out tunnels this week, maybe it could be addressed, script/database changes to ensure U.S. residents get a slice of different pie, that netflix could whitelist, but since its been going for many many years, that is not possible, not easily possible anyway without dropping and changing all existing U.S. users which would bring about a tsunami of complaints for other reasons, so no, HE wont be doing anything in the future :)
>
> For what it's worth, I'm not well-versed on this issue or familiar with any past action on it. But with that said, I understand the risks involved in terms of disrupting services, but surely _something _must be able to be done about this.

Thats up to netflix - they are the ones blocking. The problem will
diminish over time when end user ISP's go native IPv6, then they want
need a HE tunnel service.

--

If you have the urge to reply to all rather than reply to list, you
best first read http://members.ausics.net/qwerty/