Mailing List Archive

Brocade IPSEC modules
Has anyone experienced/used the IPSEC modules for MLX or the like?

Good/Bad/Ugly?

--
Michael Gehrmann
Re: Brocade IPSEC modules [ In reply to ]
I'm still trying to recover from the sticker shock. They only have one
option for ipsec, a 4-port 10g card that lists for $120k in the US.

--
Eldon

On Aug 14, 2016 22:21, "Michael Gehrmann" <mgehrmann@atlassian.com> wrote:

> Has anyone experienced/used the IPSEC modules for MLX or the like?
>
> Good/Bad/Ugly?
>
> --
> Michael Gehrmann
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundry-nsp mailing list
> foundry-nsp@puck.nether.net
> http://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/foundry-nsp
>
Re: Brocade IPSEC modules [ In reply to ]
Hi
There is IPSEC card for ICX7450 with great performance (up to 10G) and
cheap comparing to MLX one.
Nowe we have project with 120 branched where we probably will use ICX card
to VPN instead of Cisco router.

Rob


On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 4:32 PM, Eldon Koyle <
ekoyle+puck.nether.net@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm still trying to recover from the sticker shock. They only have one
> option for ipsec, a 4-port 10g card that lists for $120k in the US.
>
> --
> Eldon
>
> On Aug 14, 2016 22:21, "Michael Gehrmann" <mgehrmann@atlassian.com> wrote:
>
>> Has anyone experienced/used the IPSEC modules for MLX or the like?
>>
>> Good/Bad/Ugly?
>>
>> --
>> Michael Gehrmann
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundry-nsp mailing list
>> foundry-nsp@puck.nether.net
>> http://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/foundry-nsp
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundry-nsp mailing list
> foundry-nsp@puck.nether.net
> http://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/foundry-nsp
>
Re: Brocade IPSEC modules [ In reply to ]
Well, how much would a firewall that can do over 40G of wire speed IPSec
cost you? A PA-7050 does 48G of IPSec throughput and starts at around
$300K



On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 7:32 AM, Eldon Koyle <
ekoyle+puck.nether.net@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm still trying to recover from the sticker shock. They only have one
> option for ipsec, a 4-port 10g card that lists for $120k in the US.
>
> --
> Eldon
>
> On Aug 14, 2016 22:21, "Michael Gehrmann" <mgehrmann@atlassian.com> wrote:
>
>> Has anyone experienced/used the IPSEC modules for MLX or the like?
>>
>> Good/Bad/Ugly?
>>
>> --
>> Michael Gehrmann
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundry-nsp mailing list
>> foundry-nsp@puck.nether.net
>> http://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/foundry-nsp
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundry-nsp mailing list
> foundry-nsp@puck.nether.net
> http://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/foundry-nsp
>
Re: Brocade IPSEC modules [ In reply to ]
How about a

Dell R730 w/ 4x 10GB bonded

And something like pfsence,
https://forum.pfsense.org/index.php?topic=87071.15

should be able to get that for under $3k-4k.

Not 100% sure, haven’t looked into it, but at quick glance the hardware seems to support, 7x PCIe 3.0

Sarpreet

From: foundry-nsp [mailto:foundry-nsp-bounces@puck.nether.net] On Behalf Of George B
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2016 8:00 AM
To: Eldon Koyle <ekoyle+puck.nether.net@gmail.com>
Cc: foundry-nsp <foundry-nsp@puck.nether.net>
Subject: Re: [f-nsp] Brocade IPSEC modules

Well, how much would a firewall that can do over 40G of wire speed IPSec cost you? A PA-7050 does 48G of IPSec throughput and starts at around $300K



On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 7:32 AM, Eldon Koyle <ekoyle+puck.nether.net@gmail.com<mailto:ekoyle+puck.nether.net@gmail.com>> wrote:

I'm still trying to recover from the sticker shock. They only have one option for ipsec, a 4-port 10g card that lists for $120k in the US.

--
Eldon

On Aug 14, 2016 22:21, "Michael Gehrmann" <mgehrmann@atlassian.com<mailto:mgehrmann@atlassian.com>> wrote:
Has anyone experienced/used the IPSEC modules for MLX or the like?

Good/Bad/Ugly?

--
Michael Gehrmann


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foundry-nsp mailing list
foundry-nsp@puck.nether.net<mailto:foundry-nsp@puck.nether.net>
http://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/foundry-nsp

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Re: Brocade IPSEC modules [ In reply to ]
I agree Eldon. It is pretty steep for a single purpose "one trick pony"
card.

On 16 August 2016 at 00:32, Eldon Koyle <ekoyle+puck.nether.net@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I'm still trying to recover from the sticker shock. They only have one
> option for ipsec, a 4-port 10g card that lists for $120k in the US.
>
> --
> Eldon
>
> On Aug 14, 2016 22:21, "Michael Gehrmann" <mgehrmann@atlassian.com> wrote:
>
>> Has anyone experienced/used the IPSEC modules for MLX or the like?
>>
>> Good/Bad/Ugly?
>>
>> --
>> Michael Gehrmann
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundry-nsp mailing list
>> foundry-nsp@puck.nether.net
>> http://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/foundry-nsp
>>
>


--
Michael Gehrmann
Senior Network Engineer - Atlassian
m: +61 407 570 658
Re: Brocade IPSEC modules [ In reply to ]
Might be tricky to actually get wire speed throughput (both in and out at
the same time). A lot will depend on things such as the NUMA architecture,
where is the encryption process(es) running, where are interrupts going to
service the network cards, etc. There are some NICs that will support
IPSec offload onto the NIC. Something like a Mellanox ConnectX-3 Pro VPI
might do the trick (though the NICs are over $1000 each) and you might have
to code your own encryption software, not sure.

Probably doable but you burn 2U of rack space for that Dell vs a half a
slot in an MLX. If you are doing a lot of these sorts of connections, it
probably pays to just buy the card for the MLX. If you have someone
sitting around with a lot of cycles to spare and they have the expertise to
duplicate the performance, sure, I guess the hardware cost might be less,
but you are probably paying that person more than the card costs.


On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 9:34 AM, Sarpreet Basi <sar@knowledgecomputers.net>
wrote:

> How about a
>
>
>
> Dell R730 w/ 4x 10GB bonded
>
>
>
> And something like pfsence,
>
> https://forum.pfsense.org/index.php?topic=87071.15
>
>
>
> should be able to get that for under $3k-4k.
>
>
>
> Not 100% sure, haven’t looked into it, but at quick glance the hardware
> seems to support, 7x PCIe 3.0
>
>
>
> Sarpreet
>
>
>
> *From:* foundry-nsp [mailto:foundry-nsp-bounces@puck.nether.net] *On
> Behalf Of *George B
> *Sent:* Monday, August 15, 2016 8:00 AM
> *To:* Eldon Koyle <ekoyle+puck.nether.net@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* foundry-nsp <foundry-nsp@puck.nether.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [f-nsp] Brocade IPSEC modules
>
>
>
> Well, how much would a firewall that can do over 40G of wire speed IPSec
> cost you? A PA-7050 does 48G of IPSec throughput and starts at around
> $300K
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 7:32 AM, Eldon Koyle <
> ekoyle+puck.nether.net@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm still trying to recover from the sticker shock. They only have one
> option for ipsec, a 4-port 10g card that lists for $120k in the US.
>
> --
> Eldon
>
>
>
> On Aug 14, 2016 22:21, "Michael Gehrmann" <mgehrmann@atlassian.com> wrote:
>
> Has anyone experienced/used the IPSEC modules for MLX or the like?
>
>
>
> Good/Bad/Ugly?
>
>
>
> --
>
> Michael Gehrmann
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundry-nsp mailing list
> foundry-nsp@puck.nether.net
> http://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/foundry-nsp
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundry-nsp mailing list
> foundry-nsp@puck.nether.net
> http://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/foundry-nsp
>
>
>
Re: Brocade IPSEC modules [ In reply to ]
One other thing to consider carefully is what code version are you required
to run to support that line card and are you ready to upgrade past the
"target path" which is still 5.6h . It looks like 5.9bd is the minimum
version for ipsec, and 6.0 is the current alpha... err... latest release.

Still too new for me. Their confidence in their own code inspires
confidence, don't you think?

--
Eldon

On Aug 15, 2016 4:21 PM, "Michael Gehrmann" <mgehrmann@atlassian.com> wrote:

> I agree Eldon. It is pretty steep for a single purpose "one trick pony"
> card.
>
> On 16 August 2016 at 00:32, Eldon Koyle <ekoyle+puck.nether.net@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm still trying to recover from the sticker shock. They only have one
>> option for ipsec, a 4-port 10g card that lists for $120k in the US.
>>
>> --
>> Eldon
>>
>> On Aug 14, 2016 22:21, "Michael Gehrmann" <mgehrmann@atlassian.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Has anyone experienced/used the IPSEC modules for MLX or the like?
>>>
>>> Good/Bad/Ugly?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Gehrmann
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> foundry-nsp mailing list
>>> foundry-nsp@puck.nether.net
>>> http://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/foundry-nsp
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Michael Gehrmann
> Senior Network Engineer - Atlassian
> m: +61 407 570 658
>
Re: Brocade IPSEC modules [ In reply to ]
Good point Eldon, I didn't find that reference.

Not likely to want to risk the new code.

On 16 August 2016 at 15:39, Eldon Koyle <ekoyle+puck.nether.net@gmail.com>
wrote:

> One other thing to consider carefully is what code version are you
> required to run to support that line card and are you ready to upgrade past
> the "target path" which is still 5.6h . It looks like 5.9bd is the minimum
> version for ipsec, and 6.0 is the current alpha... err... latest release.
>
> Still too new for me. Their confidence in their own code inspires
> confidence, don't you think?
>
> --
> Eldon
>
> On Aug 15, 2016 4:21 PM, "Michael Gehrmann" <mgehrmann@atlassian.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I agree Eldon. It is pretty steep for a single purpose "one trick pony"
>> card.
>>
>> On 16 August 2016 at 00:32, Eldon Koyle <ekoyle+puck.nether.net@gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> I'm still trying to recover from the sticker shock. They only have one
>>> option for ipsec, a 4-port 10g card that lists for $120k in the US.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Eldon
>>>
>>> On Aug 14, 2016 22:21, "Michael Gehrmann" <mgehrmann@atlassian.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Has anyone experienced/used the IPSEC modules for MLX or the like?
>>>>
>>>> Good/Bad/Ugly?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michael Gehrmann
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> foundry-nsp mailing list
>>>> foundry-nsp@puck.nether.net
>>>> http://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/foundry-nsp
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Gehrmann
>> Senior Network Engineer - Atlassian
>> m: +61 407 570 658
>>
>


--
Michael Gehrmann
Senior Network Engineer - Atlassian
m: +61 407 570 658
Re: Brocade IPSEC modules [ In reply to ]
I noticed it while browsing through the available code versions. I was
curious because I have been bitten a lot lately by features/hardware that
are "supported", but only in code versions your SE will encourage you not
to run.

Another example, the ICX64xx line will not run code past 08010, but the
models to replace them will not run code older than 08030. I understand
that they can't support code forever (unless it's an MLX, apparently), but
this is the first time I can't do a graceful transition from one model to
the next without worrying about unexpected changes in behavior; and the ICX
was (is?) less than 5 years old when they made that decision.

I'm starting to feel like I need a support group.

--
Eldon

On Aug 15, 2016 11:47 PM, "Michael Gehrmann" <mgehrmann@atlassian.com>
wrote:

> Good point Eldon, I didn't find that reference.
>
> Not likely to want to risk the new code.
>
> On 16 August 2016 at 15:39, Eldon Koyle <ekoyle+puck.nether.net@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> One other thing to consider carefully is what code version are you
>> required to run to support that line card and are you ready to upgrade past
>> the "target path" which is still 5.6h . It looks like 5.9bd is the minimum
>> version for ipsec, and 6.0 is the current alpha... err... latest release.
>>
>> Still too new for me. Their confidence in their own code inspires
>> confidence, don't you think?
>>
>> --
>> Eldon
>>
>> On Aug 15, 2016 4:21 PM, "Michael Gehrmann" <mgehrmann@atlassian.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I agree Eldon. It is pretty steep for a single purpose "one trick pony"
>>> card.
>>>
>>> On 16 August 2016 at 00:32, Eldon Koyle <ekoyle+puck.nether.net@gmail.
>>> com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm still trying to recover from the sticker shock. They only have one
>>>> option for ipsec, a 4-port 10g card that lists for $120k in the US.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Eldon
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 14, 2016 22:21, "Michael Gehrmann" <mgehrmann@atlassian.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone experienced/used the IPSEC modules for MLX or the like?
>>>>>
>>>>> Good/Bad/Ugly?
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Michael Gehrmann
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> foundry-nsp mailing list
>>>>> foundry-nsp@puck.nether.net
>>>>> http://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/foundry-nsp
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Gehrmann
>>> Senior Network Engineer - Atlassian
>>> m: +61 407 570 658
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Michael Gehrmann
> Senior Network Engineer - Atlassian
> m: +61 407 570 658
>
Re: Brocade IPSEC modules [ In reply to ]
Well, we're running 8.0.30 builds on ICX64xx lines for few months without
any special problems. Our campus is around 200+ switches.
Problem is split between 8.0.30 and 8.0.40+ for ICX7xxx, as new features we
can have just on few switches in new network :(

Rob
Re: Brocade IPSEC modules [ In reply to ]
Sorry, I'm getting a bit off the topic of this thread.

Apparently I am wrong about the end of support version for ICX64xx...
It is 08030 that is the last available version. The ICX6430-C12 is
only like 3 years old, though... seems a bit early to drop the line
from newer code versions.

There were changes between 08010 and 08030 that are incompatible with
our current implementation. They made some heavy changes to mac-based
authentication (mostly for the best), as well as some considerable
changes to the config syntax for mac-auth.

We had the auth-fail VLAN set to the default VLAN; they no longer
allow this (for "security" reasons, they said; it fails with an error
message).

Their final response to us is "that was never supported". Seems to be
the default response for anything ICX related.

--
Eldon

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 11:33 AM, Robert Hass <robhass@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, we're running 8.0.30 builds on ICX64xx lines for few months without
> any special problems. Our campus is around 200+ switches.
> Problem is split between 8.0.30 and 8.0.40+ for ICX7xxx, as new features we
> can have just on few switches in new network :(
>
> Rob
>
>
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Re: Brocade IPSEC modules [ In reply to ]
Hay Folks,
Don’t want to bombard you with marketing crap, but if you divide the cost of the module by the total aggregate speed (44Gb encryption engine) the cost per 1Gb of encrypted throughput is the lowest in the market; the module is still 2X the throughput of the closest module available on the Juniper MS-DPC; the encryption engine on a Catalyst WS-IPSEC-3 module is only 8 Gbps. If you’re deploying IPSec on a Cisco ASR, you’re also looking at an additional $10K charge for the IPSEC license in IOS after you buy the actual module. We don’t license any software features, IPSec included, on the MLXe.

The IPSec module has 4X10G and 4X1G interfaces and uses an FPGA based encryption engine that sits directly on the module, so you don’t have to dedicate a separate slot on the router for an encryption service module. The up side to this approach is that data doesn’t make a U-turn through the chassis to a service module to be encrypted; every time you’re sending any data to a separate service module, you’re burning backplane banwidth twice because of the intermediate hop to the service module.

We’re not bullshi**ing on performance; you can push *bidirectional* line-rate encrypted traffic streams across all the 10G and 1G ports, with 9.2K Jumbo packets, and the module will never drop a packet. You can also stack every module in an MLXe with an IPSec module, while still running line-rate, and we actually support running 32 IPSec module in an MLXe-32 (yes, there are actually customers that need this amount of encryption). This module was primarily built for Federal/DOD customers, so it support Common Criteria & FIPS with Elliptic Curve encryption and AES-256, again…all in an FPGA based engine, not a L7 application process in our code. The module contains 3GB of buffers to help with bursty traffic and supports 512 IPv4 routs, so you can use it as an egress port into a large BGP core. All of the existing IPv4/IPv6 & L2 features on the MLXe work across the module, so it can be inserted into an existing MPLS or BGP backbone.

But yeah, it’s still an expensive module. Part of the target market are customers with FIPS, HIPPA, or PCI requirements who are required to bulk encrypt traffic across their WAN or at their datacenter’s edge. If someone needs less than 10Gb or encrypted throughput, then the IPSec module for the ICX is a much better fit and shares a lot of the architecture of the MLXe IPSec module. The MLXe IPSec module can terminate IPSec tunnels for the ICX, so it’s a good solution for aggregating multiple IPSec tunnels from remote sites. Later this year we should also be able to support terminating IPSec tunnels from vRouter, so you will be able to leverage it as a IPSec cloud-bridging solution for applications running in AWS.

Wilbur







From: foundry-nsp [mailto:foundry-nsp-bounces@puck.nether.net] On Behalf Of Eldon Koyle
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2016 8:32 AM
To: Michael Gehrmann <mgehrmann@atlassian.com>
Cc: foundry-nsp <foundry-nsp@puck.nether.net>
Subject: Re: [f-nsp] Brocade IPSEC modules


I'm still trying to recover from the sticker shock. They only have one option for ipsec, a 4-port 10g card that lists for $120k in the US.

--
Eldon

On Aug 14, 2016 22:21, "Michael Gehrmann" <mgehrmann@atlassian.com<mailto:mgehrmann@atlassian.com>> wrote:
Has anyone experienced/used the IPSEC modules for MLX or the like?

Good/Bad/Ugly?

--
Michael Gehrmann


_______________________________________________
foundry-nsp mailing list
foundry-nsp@puck.nether.net<mailto:foundry-nsp@puck.nether.net>
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