Mailing List Archive

> Interesting enough, many fire departments won't allow roof mounted
> generators anymore because storing fuel along with it is considered
> hazardous. We had an awful time getting our 250 kw generator installed
> and ended up with it on the ground level next to the parking garage
> with an integral fuel storage tank; it was the easiest to get permitted.
>
> Also, if you have ever been to MAE-East, you might realize that one
> particular tenant that is effectively "sub-letted" in the facility

Eberything in the huge UUNET cage looked to be on DC...

> would probably have a slim to none chance of getting such a thing
> installed. I suspect the DC to AC inverters are best for folks to
> try, but it would have been nice if MFS had addressed the issue in
> a more effecient manner when the new facility was constructed.
>
> Ed Morin

Avi
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Trace makes wonderful stuff, but it is designed to be wall mounted,
not rack or cabinet mounted.

Of course, a completely PV exchange point with no connection to the
grid _at all_ would be pretty cool. Is there any marketing demand for
an environmentally-friendly NAP? :)

---Rob


Date: Sun, 8 Sep 96 9:43:50 PDT
From: Rob Liebschutz <rob@rjl.com>
Cc: nanog@merit.edu
Sender: owner-nanog@merit.edu

In the Alternative energy arena, Trace Engineering makes a 4000 and
5500 watt 48 VDC sine wave inverter that supports stacking of two
inverters to double the capacity/reliability. It's probably not
designed to be rackmountable though.

For smaller applications, Exeltech makes physically compact solid
state sine wave inverters ranging from 250 - 6000 watts.

If your running AC equipment with non-switching type power supplies,
like CSU/DSU's, monitors or MUXes watch out for any inverter that does
not generate a true sine wave. Square waves and modified sine waves
can fry such equipment.

And Yes, you do need hefty wiring on DC equipment due to the voltage
drop created when transmitting high current at low voltage. I have a
400 amp hour battery bank in my van with a 1200 watt inverter mounted
about 10 feet away and I used 2/0 (that's pronounced 2 ought - heaver
than 0 gauge) wire for a proper connection. There are formulas for
calculation of the correct wire gauge.

Heavy wire that is flexible enough to be routed around corners and
through racks is made of braided conductors and is commonly available
from welding suppliers.

Trace Engineering can be reached at 206-435-8826.
Exeltech can be reached at 817-595-4969.

I could provide lists of vendors of such equipment if that is
appropiate.

Rob

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> That's why the PAIX is wired thusly:
>
> [ picture ]
>
> The batteries are sort of the capacitor in a huge DC power supply. The
> triple AC UPS is so that the electricians can do maintainance on one of
> the UPSes while still leaving two others online.
>
> Stephen was talking about dual rectifiers and a DC transfer switch but
> I havn't been in that room for a while so I don't know if that happened.

Last I counted there were five rectifiers. The single-line drawing is
back at my office, though, and I don't recall how they're wired.

> It costs a lot of money -- almost as much as connectorizing the cross
> connects -- but the goal is 100% uptime on both the AC and DC.

Yup. The air conditioning is wired into the city and generator power
so that it will run during a power failure, but not drain the UPS'
batteries.

The UPS (and DC, of course) batteries charge off the generator - since
it takes longer to charge than it took to drain, sometimes you have to
run the generator longer after city power comes back, to make sure
that the batteries have charged enough should the power fail again
(and perhaps again, and again after that) right after you've switched
back to city power. It's a worst-case scenario, but if your city
power toggles a couple times in a day, you could lose your entire
battery charge in increments, and not have enough to carry you until
your generator kicks in.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any personal experience with
losing utility-provided power more than, say, three times in a day?

Stephen
- -----
Stephen Stuart stuart@pa.dec.com
Network Systems Laboratory
Digital Equipment Corporation
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> Interesting enough, many fire departments won't allow roof mounted
> generators anymore because storing fuel along with it is considered
> hazardous. We had an awful time getting our 250 kw generator installed
> and ended up with it on the ground level next to the parking garage
> with an integral fuel storage tank; it was the easiest to get permitted.

At PAIX they put the generator on the roof and the fuel tank in the basement.
The fuel pump has its own UPS and it's also on the building UPS. It takes
a minute or two to pressurize the fuel line, but the UPSs could run the
whole kaboodle for a lot longer than the generator's startup time.

The permits would have been a huge problem had this building not once housed
the Pac Bell CO for Palo Alto. But all we had to do was more or less exactly
what they had done and the city agreed that if it had been OK for Pac Bell to
do it, it was probably OK for Digital to do the same things.
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> On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, Avi Freedman wrote:
>
> > it to 110vac? If not, we're probably going to have to build our own
> > battery rack and/or stick a generator on the roof at one of our MFS
> > colo sites.
>
> Interesting enough, many fire departments won't allow roof mounted
> generators anymore because storing fuel along with it is considered
> hazardous. We had an awful time getting our 250 kw generator installed
> and ended up with it on the ground level next to the parking garage
> with an integral fuel storage tank; it was the easiest to get permitted.

We solved that as PAIX by having the main fuel tank in the basement,
in a steel-reinforced cinder-block vault, with a "day tank" up on the
roof; a redundant pair of pumps draw fuel from the basement up to the
roof. The fire department liked it because there wasn't too much fuel
on the roof, and the (whatever that other department was) liked it
because the generator was on the roof (and the noise at ground level
wouldn't be too great during weekly tests).

Stephen
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So, can someone explain what the problem is?

MAE-East is a telco facility (well...) but if I look at one of our routers;

ICM-MAE-E uptime is 2 weeks, 4 days, 14 hours, 12 minutes
System restarted by reload at 14:40:57 EDT Tue Aug 20 1996


So, what's the fuzz here?

(Don't you all use -48Vdc in telco pops?)

--Peter
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> is dead you are ok, I just don't think that is the point. MAE-East needs
> to have some money dumped in to fix some of the power and other problems
> before it is a big disaster.

Well, the NY-NAP (in south NY...), has like a day of -48V and
generators for weeks, and excellent physical security.

--Peter
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> >|} Check out the nice graph of MAE-East for that last 5 days. When are
> >|} they going to get a generator installed? Why can't you pay for a
> >|} generator when you are charging +30 people $5,700 a month?
> >
> >At least part of the facility (1919 Gallows, P1) is on generator, or
> >hasn't had a power outage recently.
> >
> >mae-east uptime is 3 weeks, 3 days, 5 hours, 46 minutes
>
> All of our equipment is on battery-backed -48 volt DC power. Well, for
> full disclosure, almost all of it, there is a dialup modem plugged into
> a wall wart; but I can't find an rackmount DC-powered NEBS compliant
> modem in quantities of one.
>
> But, there seems to be some piece of equipment somewhere that's missing
> power. Even though the FDDI interface stays operational, we seem to loose
> almost all the peering sessions. Even other folks who also are on DC power.
> AS286 sticks around for some reason I can't explain. I guess its time to
> physically walk the circuit path looking for equipment plugged into a
> wall outlet.
>
> BTW, are other folks getting advanced notice from MFS about this? Our
> sales person claims we're on the notification list, but we still don't get
> advanced warning about work at mae-east.
> --
> Sean Donelan, Data Research Associates, Inc, St. Louis, MO
> Affiliation given for identification not representation
>


ICM-MAE-E uptime is 2 weeks, 4 days, 14 hours, 12 minutes
System restarted by reload at 14:40:57 EDT Tue Aug 20 1996
Running buggy software

Neighbor V AS MsgRcvd MsgSent TblVer InQ OutQ Up/Down State
192.41.177.1 4 1 92312 159041 6773476 0 0 2d17h
192.41.177.115 4 2548 31408 457020 6773476 0 0 2d17h
192.41.177.140 4 690 116540 212363 6773476 0 0 1d10h
192.41.177.141 4 1673 99241 158848 6773501 0 0 2d17h
192.41.177.170 4 3830 103181 211298 6773501 0 0 2d07h
192.41.177.180 4 3561 221435 210611 6773501 0 0 2d17h
192.41.177.181 4 3561 26754 210272 6773501 0 0 2d17h
198.67.131.89 4 1800 763230 569598 6773631 0 0 2d11h

This is funny, I did loose my IBGP peers, maybe the MFS provided
IDSU is on AC power... -:)

--Peter
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> > I realize that the phone world that MFS is part of operates
> > differently, but this is networking equipment we are talking about,
> > not phone switches, and UPSes are very old tech at this point.
>
> the bottom layers of the network (L2 and below) are mostly telco
> stuff and mostly (other than the gigaswitch) prefer DC power. DC

Our Gigaswitches run on DC.....

--Peter

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> > So, what's the fuzz here?
> >
> > (Don't you all use -48Vdc in telco pops?)
> >
> > --Peter
>
> The fuzz is that most people use AC supplies in their CSUs and routers.
> My best guess would be that it's so that they could move those boxes
> out of the telco environement (if needed) and run them on AC.

You can swap the PS in any cisco box, on some models you don't even
need a screw driver.

As someone already pointed out, it takes half the components to do
UPS -48V than UPS 110V/230V.

Where I live the comercial power is more reliable than the small
UPS boxes, so the lesson is, UPS'es has to come in pairs..


--Peter

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Original message <199609081405.KAA04199@netaxs.com>
From: Avi Freedman <freedman@netaxs.com>
Date: Sep 8, 10:05
Subject: Re: MAE-East still no generator
>
> > Our real problem is getting them to fit properly in 23" racks :)
> >
> > =====================================
> > George Hall 916-565-4500
>
> While this may not apply to 7513s, we've found that super-sturdy $25
> 23" or 19" rack shelves (and Greybar sells the Chatsworth sturdy
> shelves for $75 or so) take a 7507 or 7000 (or 7505/7010) *very* well,
> and there's not need to bother with the rack-harnesses.
>
> Avi

We have facilities on both sides of the San Andreas (our main offices are
in one of the downtown Santa Cruz buildings that *didn't* collapse in 1989)
and don't share your view of shelves :)

-matthew kaufman
matthew@scruz.net

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> > Telcos have been around for 100 years; they know how to do DC; they
> > do it quite well; you might as well use what they got instead of
> > wasting time fighting for what is 'right'. Its not like its all
> > that hard to get the gear that ISPs use to run off of DC.
>
> I readily agree that if one has no choice one can get 48VDC
> equipment. The problem, as I see it, is that the overall cost of the
> facility providing battery backed up AC and people using standard mass
> produced equipment is substantially lower than the cost of the users
> all finding oddball power supplies and the facility providing
> DC. Furthermore, there is the issue of dramatically lowered
> convenience.
>
FYI Telehouse Europe in London which hosts LINX (London Internet Neutral
Exchange) provides AC power by default (doubtless they will do DC
power if you ask). They are both an FM facility for dealing rooms
etc., have several colocated telcos, and lots of ISPs. We haven't
(to my knowledge) had a single AC power failure since we've been there.
They have the entire building UPSed with 2 very large glycol generators
and enough fuel to last for at least 3 days. It's possible to do, and
it works. And the price is from memory cheaper than MAE-East.

Telehouse NY (same people) are also starting an IXP. It will be interesting
to see how they compare.

Alex Bligh
Xara Networks


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>Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any personal experience with
>losing utility-provided power more than, say, three times in a day?

Plenty. When power goes out around here, its going to go up and down
several more times.

DRA is located between several organizations concerned with real money,
Bridge Information handles real-time trading feeds, MasterCard International
does credit cards and Western Union/AT&T does money orders. The standard
operating procedure around here is three backup generators. Nothing can
ruin your trading day faster than a power failure just at the moment you
have your backup generator torn apart for maintenance. With 24 hour
trading becoming the norm, all day is trading day. Two generators
usually start immediately, with the third one held as a spare.

DRA won't make the news. But if you hear MasterCard International is down,
DRA will likely have suffered the same fate.

P.S. a generator hint, don't forget to keep your fuel tanks warm. As
several sites in the northeast found out a couple of winters ago, diesel
fuel gels at very cold tempatures.
--
Sean Donelan, Data Research Associates, Inc, St. Louis, MO
Affiliation given for identification not representation
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At 10:55 AM 9/8/96 DST, Peter Lothberg wrote:
>
>So, can someone explain what the problem is?
>
>MAE-East is a telco facility (well...) but if I look at one of our routers;
>
>ICM-MAE-E uptime is 2 weeks, 4 days, 14 hours, 12 minutes
>System restarted by reload at 14:40:57 EDT Tue Aug 20 1996

Actually my router there is running AC and is running with 11 weeks uptime
(restarted by a relaod). I don't have any peering seesions that were up for
more than three days though. Me not losing power doesn't help me if there's
no way to talk to anyone else.

Justin Newton
Internet Architect
Erol's Internet Services

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>>>>>> "Avi" == Avi Freedman <freedman@netaxs.com> writes:
>
> Avi> Does anyone know of
> Avi> inverters that take MFS's -48dc (with what I'm told is
> Avi> 'positive-ground' power) and convert it to 110vac?
>
>Yes, such equipment is readily available. Even telcos have *some* AC
>equipment! Check the yellow pages under Electronics; there's likely a
>local company that carries that stuff surplus. Also, you can check
>with your LXC to find out where they get equipment of that type.
>This is from memory, but I believe Lorain makes such equipment.

Yep, we use a Lorain inverter for our non -48VDC equipment. Works well.


--
Eric Kozowski Senior Network Engineer
eric@structured.net Structured Network Systems, Inc.
(503)656-3235 FAX Better, Cheaper, Faster -- pick any two.
(800)881-0962 Voice http://www.structured.net/
"Providing High Quality, Reliable Internet Service" -- 56k to DS1
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oh, boy.

let's make billions of dollars of battery backed up, dc powered
facilities and force them to install ac backup. and all in the
name of the all-mighty internet.

telco facilites use dc power because it's the most efficient.
dc powered equipment isn't that hard to come by. what's the
dc power option on a cisco 75xx? about $350?

Jeff Young
young@mci.net

> To: Paul A Vixie <vixie@wisdom.home.vix.com>
> cc: nanog@merit.edu
> Subject: Re: MAE-East still no generator
> Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 12:19:46 -0400
> From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@piermont.com>
> Sender: owner-nanog@merit.edu
> Content-Type: text
> Content-Length: 418
>
>
> Paul A Vixie writes:
> > > In other words, its silly for them not to have UPSed AC available.
> >
> > i agree with this but it can't be exclusive. that's why dec's palo alto
> > facility has both AC and DC, each of which is UPSed and generatored.
>
> Both is fine. Lots of telco equipment likes DC. However, having
> insufficient quantities of AC to meet the demand is what I think is
> silly. Installing UPSes isn't hard.
>
> Perry


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> I don't think so. AC is not very good for distance. When you have a AC
> sine wave you also get reverse EMF that distorts the signal. AC is like
> VHS it was at the masses first. DC like BETA works better, though if you
> use DC you would have a lot more deaths because AC is a little easier to
> take if you touch the wire at high currents.

Sometime around the beginning of the 1900s Edison and Westinghouse
were waging PR war over whether the country should adopt DC or AC. In
an early preview of negative campaigning Edison appealed to public
fear by noting that AC was used in electric chairs. Edison lost that
fight, of course, but got his revenge from GE winning the long-term
economic battle.

Now that I can claim title to the most irrelevant NANOG posting in
history, (intended) I return you all to the current battle ...

--
Dick St.Peters, Gatekeeper, Pearly Gateway, Ballston Spa, NY
stpeters@NetHeaven.com Owner, NetHeaven 518-885-1295/800-910-6671
Albany/Saratoga/Glens Falls/North Creek/Lake Placid/Blue Mountain Lake
First Internet service based in the 518 area code

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Peter Lothberg writes:
> > is dead you are ok, I just don't think that is the point. MAE-East needs
> > to have some money dumped in to fix some of the power and other problems
> > before it is a big disaster.
>
> Well, the NY-NAP (in south NY...)

In Pennsauken, New JERSEY...

, has like a day of -48V and
> generators for weeks, and excellent physical security.
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edison also used to refer to electrocution as "westinghousing
people"

Jeff Young
young@mci.net


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> Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:48:34 -0400
> From: "Dick St.Peters" <stpeters@NetHeaven.com>
> Message-Id: <199609090248.WAA16929@saint.heaven.net>
> To: nanog@merit.edu
> Subject: Re: MAE-East still no generator
> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.960908085543.19899D-100000@netrail.net>
> References: <199609080429.XAA10713@westie.gi.net>
> <Pine.LNX.3.95.960908085543.19899D-100000@netrail.net>
> Sender: owner-nanog@merit.edu
> Content-Type: text
> Content-Length: 1102
>
> > I don't think so. AC is not very good for distance. When you have a AC
> > sine wave you also get reverse EMF that distorts the signal. AC is like
> > VHS it was at the masses first. DC like BETA works better, though if you
> > use DC you would have a lot more deaths because AC is a little easier to
> > take if you touch the wire at high currents.
>
> Sometime around the beginning of the 1900s Edison and Westinghouse
> were waging PR war over whether the country should adopt DC or AC. In
> an early preview of negative campaigning Edison appealed to public
> fear by noting that AC was used in electric chairs. Edison lost that
> fight, of course, but got his revenge from GE winning the long-term
> economic battle.
>
> Now that I can claim title to the most irrelevant NANOG posting in
> history, (intended) I return you all to the current battle ...
>
> --
> Dick St.Peters, Gatekeeper, Pearly Gateway, Ballston Spa, NY
> stpeters@NetHeaven.com Owner, NetHeaven 518-885-1295/800-910-6671
> Albany/Saratoga/Glens Falls/North Creek/Lake Placid/Blue Mountain Lake
> First Internet service based in the 518 area code
>



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From: "Jeff Young" <young@mci.net>

edison also used to refer to electrocution as "westinghousing
people"

I thought it was "sending them to the Westing House". Apparently he
even got some newspapers to cover it that way...

---Rob


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