Mailing List Archive

On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Nathan Stratton wrote:

|} Check out the nice graph of MAE-East for that last 5 days. When are
|} they going to get a generator installed? Why can't you pay for a
|} generator when you are charging +30 people $5,700 a month?

At least part of the facility (1919 Gallows, P1) is on generator, or
hasn't had a power outage recently.

mae-east uptime is 3 weeks, 3 days, 5 hours, 46 minutes


-jh-

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> Check out the nice graph of MAE-East for that last 5 days. When are they
> going to get a generator installed? Why can't you pay for a generator when
> you are charging +30 people $5,700 a month?

OK, market research time. If someone else were selling datacenter/colocation
space in a high quality facility less than a mile from MAE-East, lit with MFS
and several other bypass carriers, with its own GIGAswitches, would anybody
reading this feel the urge to relocate their hub and just leave one 100Mb/s
dark fibre over to MFS, meanwhile building preferred peerings with folks who
took the same route? Assume that the costs were similar to what MFS charges,
bearing in mind that more space would be available and you might want to pay
for more of it since it would have 24x7 remote hands, AC/DC with UPS/generator,
and all the rest of that kind of good goopy stuff.

(Sigh, yes, it's true. I helped with DEC's Palo Alto thing, and now I've got
the fever, and possibly the funding, but I don't know if it's worthwhile.)
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From: Andrew Partan <asp@partan.com>

So what are you using? AC or DC? If you are not on DC, I would
switch. Maybe you would have better luck.

You took the words right out of my mouth. -48vDC is *so* much cleaner
and less troublesome than mains AC (or even upsed AC) that I urge all
my clients to use it for *everything* whenever it's available.

---Rob


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On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Paul A Vixie wrote:

> OK, market research time. If someone else were selling datacenter/colocation
> space in a high quality facility less than a mile from MAE-East, lit with MFS
> and several other bypass carriers, with its own GIGAswitches, would anybody
> reading this feel the urge to relocate their hub and just leave one 100Mb/s
> dark fibre over to MFS, meanwhile building preferred peerings with folks who
> took the same route? Assume that the costs were similar to what MFS charges,
> bearing in mind that more space would be available and you might want to pay
> for more of it since it would have 24x7 remote hands, AC/DC with UPS/generator,
> and all the rest of that kind of good goopy stuff.

Well I am building one, just not near MAE-East. I think that if I build one
1 mile away and had 24x7 remote hands, AC/DC, redundant fiber paths MFS
and others, UPS/generator with redundant by-pass, and much more people
would not move. I know that some would, but to make it work you would need
to get Sprint, MCI, UUNet, and ANS to move and I think that would be hard
to do. Even if you were using my model and gave Sprint, MCI, UUNet, and
ANS free rack space and free gigaswitch port.

> (Sigh, yes, it's true. I helped with DEC's Palo Alto thing, and now I've got
> the fever, and possibly the funding, but I don't know if it's worthwhile.)

Don't think it is. :-(

Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc.
Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5
Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201
WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about
itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34



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On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Andrew Partan wrote:

> > Check out the nice graph of MAE-East for that last 5 days. When are they
> > going to get a generator installed? Why can't you pay for a generator when
> > you are charging +30 people $5,700 a month?
>
> I was over at MAE-East installing some equipment sometime early
> this summer & I was talking with some MFS folks. They were looking
> at the AC powered gear that I was installing & were wondering why
> I did not do DC - they said that there was *lots* of DC capacity
> (all battery backed) at MAE-East. Last week I was over there again
> & poked around. I think that I only saw *two* folks that were
> using DC - everyone else was on AC.
>
> So what are you using? AC or DC? If you are not on DC, I would
> switch. Maybe you would have better luck.

The lame extended NetEdge thing, I am moving to a 7505 with and Cascade
9000 with a OC3c to my POP in Arlington. When I do that I will be DC. The
DC is all battery backed, but it is not on a generator and has gone down
many times.

> As far as uptime goes - some folks have not seen any outages -
> Digex has been up for 3+ weeks; ICM for 2+ weeks. It does look
> like all BGP sessions reset 2days9hours ago.
> --asp@partan.com (Andrew Partan)
>


Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc.
Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5
Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201
WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about
itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34


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On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Nathan Stratton wrote:

> Well I am building one, just not near MAE-East. I think that if I build one
> 1 mile away and had 24x7 remote hands, AC/DC, redundant fiber paths MFS
> and others, UPS/generator with redundant by-pass, and much more people
> would not move. I know that some would, but to make it work you would need
> to get Sprint, MCI, UUNet, and ANS to move and I think that would be hard
> to do. Even if you were using my model and gave Sprint, MCI, UUNet, and
> ANS free rack space and free gigaswitch port.

People should build robust enough infrastructure so that they don't rely on
MAE-East so much. The current MAE-East is a disaster waiting to happen. Just
hope that there isn't a flood in that area any time soon.

Oh, speaking of environmental conditions, I hope folks who are on DC power
check their wire. Last time I was there, most of them were hooked up using
10 amp wire and were running pretty hot.

-dorian

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On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Dorian R. Kim wrote:

> People should build robust enough infrastructure so that they don't rely on
> MAE-East so much. The current MAE-East is a disaster waiting to happen. Just
> hope that there isn't a flood in that area any time soon.
>
> Oh, speaking of environmental conditions, I hope folks who are on DC power
> check their wire. Last time I was there, most of them were hooked up using
> 10 amp wire and were running pretty hot.

Hehe, ya I was in there not to long ago and that wire was very hot. I
agree that you should build a network infrastructure so that when MAE-East
is dead you are ok, I just don't think that is the point. MAE-East needs
to have some money dumped in to fix some of the power and other problems
before it is a big disaster.

Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc.
Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5
Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201
WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about
itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34


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On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Nathan Stratton wrote:

> agree that you should build a network infrastructure so that when MAE-East
> is dead you are ok, I just don't think that is the point. MAE-East needs
> to have some money dumped in to fix some of the power and other problems
> before it is a big disaster.

I guess I'm more fatalistic then you are.

-dorian

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>|} Check out the nice graph of MAE-East for that last 5 days. When are
>|} they going to get a generator installed? Why can't you pay for a
>|} generator when you are charging +30 people $5,700 a month?
>
>At least part of the facility (1919 Gallows, P1) is on generator, or
>hasn't had a power outage recently.
>
>mae-east uptime is 3 weeks, 3 days, 5 hours, 46 minutes

All of our equipment is on battery-backed -48 volt DC power. Well, for
full disclosure, almost all of it, there is a dialup modem plugged into
a wall wart; but I can't find an rackmount DC-powered NEBS compliant
modem in quantities of one.

But, there seems to be some piece of equipment somewhere that's missing
power. Even though the FDDI interface stays operational, we seem to loose
almost all the peering sessions. Even other folks who also are on DC power.
AS286 sticks around for some reason I can't explain. I guess its time to
physically walk the circuit path looking for equipment plugged into a
wall outlet.

BTW, are other folks getting advanced notice from MFS about this? Our
sales person claims we're on the notification list, but we still don't get
advanced warning about work at mae-east.
--
Sean Donelan, Data Research Associates, Inc, St. Louis, MO
Affiliation given for identification not representation
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Andrew Partan writes:
> I was over at MAE-East installing some equipment sometime early
> this summer & I was talking with some MFS folks. They were looking
> at the AC powered gear that I was installing & were wondering why
> I did not do DC - they said that there was *lots* of DC capacity
> (all battery backed) at MAE-East. Last week I was over there again
> & poked around. I think that I only saw *two* folks that were
> using DC - everyone else was on AC.
>
> So what are you using? AC or DC? If you are not on DC, I would
> switch. Maybe you would have better luck.

I believe that most of the country switched from direct to alternating
current late in the last century, and that by now it should be
expected that most commercial equipment in the world will either
operate at 120VAC or 220VAC, and not on direct current.

I realize that the phone world that MFS is part of operates
differently, but this is networking equipment we are talking about,
not phone switches, and UPSes are very old tech at this point.

In other words, its silly for them not to have UPSed AC available.

Perry
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> I realize that the phone world that MFS is part of operates
> differently, but this is networking equipment we are talking about,
> not phone switches, and UPSes are very old tech at this point.

the bottom layers of the network (L2 and below) are mostly telco
stuff and mostly (other than the gigaswitch) prefer DC power. DC
power is what the box wants internally, and there's a lot less heat
generated by making 5V and 12V out of 48VDC instead of 110VAC or 220VAC.
if you visit a telco switching center and surround yourself with 10
Northern Telecom OC48 racks you should notice how quiet it seems.

> In other words, its silly for them not to have UPSed AC available.

i agree with this but it can't be exclusive. that's why dec's palo alto
facility has both AC and DC, each of which is UPSed and generatored.
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Perry E. Metzger wrote:
>
> I believe that most of the country switched from direct to alternating
> current late in the last century, and that by now it should be
> expected that most commercial equipment in the world will either
> operate at 120VAC or 220VAC, and not on direct current.
>
> I realize that the phone world that MFS is part of operates
> differently, but this is networking equipment we are talking about,
> not phone switches, and UPSes are very old tech at this point.
>
> In other words, its silly for them not to have UPSed AC available.

aggreed, but:

Take the following current paths:

A. Commercial AC -> [transformer, rectifier] (DC) -> [battery] (DC) ->
[inverter] (AC) -> [your equipment] (AC) -> [transformer, rectifier] (DC)

B. Commercial AC -> [transformer, rectifier] (DC) -> [battery] (DC) ->
[your equipment] (DC)


The internal compenents of any transitorized equipment will need DC.
It makes sense for the telco companies to use B. Otherwise they would just
be adding ineffiencies. One could think of the telco's power system as
a HUGE power supply that is just external :-).

It is much more efficient to transmit AC at high voltages over long
distances than DC.

Given the fact that lots of networking equipment other than routers only
support AC power, MFS should provide battery/generator backed AC power.

Scott
--
smace@neosoft.com - KC5NUA - Scott Mace - Network Engineer - Neosoft Inc.
Any opinions expressed are mine.
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Howdy,

To stay in the tradition of the NANOG mailing list, I will take
this subject a bit off topic. :-)

The common American household and business operates on Alternating
Current mainly because of distance.

Over long distances, Alternating Current loses less energy in
transferring energy than Direct Current. For proof, imagine the
energy actually moving from point a -> point b (as in DC) or
moving back and forth in millions of sets between points a and b.
(and not moving as far) (as in AC).

So, I think it's then important to question why telcos prefer to
use DC power. DC power provides a smooth, less dynamic power source
than does AC. W/ DC power you receive a constant flow of power,
where w/ AC, the "sine" wave isn't, and the powered devices
requires more capacitators and more engineering to use the
energy. As well, backing up the equipment at remote (ruralish)
facilities is relatively cheaper w/ DC than w/ AC.

Now, back to the topic a bit.

Certainly it would be reprehensible if the MAE-E core
infrastructure (that which MFS owns/runs) wasn't backed up.
However, I believe it is.

I do not believe that it is the responsibility of MFS to provide
power to individual's equipment that is co-located at the site.

So, the question of what's causing the peer drops is interesting,
and I'll be interested to see if it's MFS's equipment, or common
oops-es by the neighbors at the colo site.

Sure would be funny if some forgotten piece of equipment wasn't on
backup (like Sean's modem, but more mission critical...)

-alan



......... Perry E. Metzger is rumored to have said:
]
]
] Andrew Partan writes:
] > I was over at MAE-East installing some equipment sometime early
] > this summer & I was talking with some MFS folks. They were looking
] > at the AC powered gear that I was installing & were wondering why
] > I did not do DC - they said that there was *lots* of DC capacity
] > (all battery backed) at MAE-East. Last week I was over there again
] > & poked around. I think that I only saw *two* folks that were
] > using DC - everyone else was on AC.
] >
] > So what are you using? AC or DC? If you are not on DC, I would
] > switch. Maybe you would have better luck.
]
] I believe that most of the country switched from direct to alternating
] current late in the last century, and that by now it should be
] expected that most commercial equipment in the world will either
] operate at 120VAC or 220VAC, and not on direct current.
]
] I realize that the phone world that MFS is part of operates
] differently, but this is networking equipment we are talking about,
] not phone switches, and UPSes are very old tech at this point.
]
] In other words, its silly for them not to have UPSed AC available.
]
] Perry
]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Original message <199609080429.XAA10713@westie.gi.net>
From: Alan Hannan <alan@gi.net>
Date: Sep 7, 23:28
Subject: Re: MAE-East still no generator
>
>
> Howdy,
>
> To stay in the tradition of the NANOG mailing list, I will take
> this subject a bit off topic. :-)
>
> The common American household and business operates on Alternating
> Current mainly because of distance.
>
> Over long distances, Alternating Current loses less energy in
> transferring energy than Direct Current. For proof, imagine the
> energy actually moving from point a -> point b (as in DC) or
> moving back and forth in millions of sets between points a and b.
> (and not moving as far) (as in AC).

The real reason that AC is more efficient to transmit is that transformers
work on AC, and that means you can, with little effort, trade amps for volts.
Then you get to transmit the power at high voltage, but low current draw.
That means thin wires (saves copper) and less resistive loss (saves energy).

Are we far enough off topic yet?

-matthew kaufman
matthew@scruz.net

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Alan Hannan <alan@gi.net> writes

* So, the question of what's causing the peer drops is interesting,
* and I'll be interested to see if it's MFS's equipment, or common
* oops-es by the neighbors at the colo site.
*
* Sure would be funny if some forgotten piece of equipment wasn't on
* backup (like Sean's modem, but more mission critical...)

Hmm, I have had a router loose power twice this week, and two DSUs
loose power (at different times than the router) twice this week as
well. I think that is a bit much for a place like MAE-EAST. No matter
whether it is AC or DC.

-Marten
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marten Terpstra Bay Networks, Inc.
Internetwork Engineering 2 Federal St
marten@BayNetworks.com Billerica, MA, USA
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> Check out the nice graph of MAE-East for that last 5 days. When are they
> going to get a generator installed? Why can't you pay for a generator when
> you are charging +30 people $5,700 a month?

I can not wait to see this in next weeks info world....

Titled "Major Internet Exchange Point has no backup power!"


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Network Engineer | fax 319.557.9771
MidWest Communications, Inc. | pager 319.557.6347
241 Main St. | noc@mwci.net
Dubuque, IA 52001 | email jbutt@mwci.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lets fight against continental drift!"
"I used up all my sick days... so I'm calling in dead"


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Howdy,

As a few folks have pointed out, my less than eloquent
explanation of why AC is more economic than DC over distance is
not as accurate as it could be. I could argue what I meant as
opposed to what I wrote, but I'd still be a bit off :)

Regardless, the point still stands that there's nothing inherently
"modern" about AC as opposed to DC.

The larger issue is having the appropriate pieces of
telephony/routing/switching backed up w/ a reliable supply.

Or mischievous hands moving power cables around :)

-alan

......... Matthew Kaufman is rumored to have said:
]
] Original message <199609080429.XAA10713@westie.gi.net>
] From: Alan Hannan <alan@gi.net>
] Date: Sep 7, 23:28
] Subject: Re: MAE-East still no generator
] >
] >
] > Howdy,
] >
] > To stay in the tradition of the NANOG mailing list, I will take
] > this subject a bit off topic. :-)
] >
] > The common American household and business operates on Alternating
] > Current mainly because of distance.
] >
] > Over long distances, Alternating Current loses less energy in
] > transferring energy than Direct Current. For proof, imagine the
] > energy actually moving from point a -> point b (as in DC) or
] > moving back and forth in millions of sets between points a and b.
] > (and not moving as far) (as in AC).
]
] The real reason that AC is more efficient to transmit is that transformers
] work on AC, and that means you can, with little effort, trade amps for volts.
] Then you get to transmit the power at high voltage, but low current draw.
] That means thin wires (saves copper) and less resistive loss (saves energy).
]
] Are we far enough off topic yet?
]
] -matthew kaufman
] matthew@scruz.net
]
]
]

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> Certainly it would be reprehensible if the MAE-E core
> infrastructure (that which MFS owns/runs) wasn't backed up.
> However, I believe it is.
>
> I do not believe that it is the responsibility of MFS to provide
> power to individual's equipment that is co-located at the site.

If reliable power is not considered an essential part of facility
infrastructure, how would you suggest that tenants get it? I think
that the incident at the WilTel POP in Santa Clara, CA, is sufficient
to prove that having individual tenants each supply their own
(typically small) UPS is a Bad Thing - the power was out long enough
to drain them to zero, furthermore (this part I have second hand) some
of them didn't take well to being flatlined like that. If everyone
were left to solve that problem on their own ... well, imagine
everyone jockeying to park their trailer-mounted portable generator
near the door. Yow.

Do you feel the same way about air conditioning? Security?

I believe that things like power, AC, and security (all reliable) are
an essential part of a facility's infrastructure (and that's why PAIX
has them). When engineered on a facility-wide scale you get a stable
platform on which to build up successive layers, and you get economies
of scale by solving the problem once for everyone.

Stephen
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Below.

] > Certainly it would be reprehensible if the MAE-E core
] > infrastructure (that which MFS owns/runs) wasn't backed up.
] > However, I believe it is.
] >
] > I do not believe that it is the responsibility of MFS to provide
] > power to individual's equipment that is co-located at the site.
]
] If reliable power is not considered an essential part of facility
] infrastructure, how would you suggest that tenants get it?

I do see your point, and it is quite valid.

However, I do not see the power responsibility to the individual's
equipment as having the same level of assumption as the power
responsibility of the provided medium.

If the colo provider were to provide us w/ regular utility power,
that should be adequate, and I can take the task of longevity and
emergency state preparation by myself.

Can, not want to. You describe an ideal situation, and a good
one. I don't find that to be the "norm" today.

] I think
] that the incident at the WilTel POP in Santa Clara, CA, is sufficient
] to prove that having individual tenants each supply their own
] (typically small) UPS is a Bad Thing - the power was out long enough
] to drain them to zero, furthermore (this part I have second hand) some
] of them didn't take well to being flatlined like that. If everyone
] were left to solve that problem on their own ... well, imagine
] everyone jockeying to park their trailer-mounted portable generator
] near the door. Yow.

I've been involved in the trailer-mounted generator scenarios, and
you are correct that solving this problem on a large scale is
difficult w/out central control.

] Do you feel the same way about air conditioning? Security?

I'd prefer to have my own cage, but I would expect some
established level of provisioning by the provider. There's my
point, that the level the provider is responsible for may well be
less that the colo client desires.

] I believe that things like power, AC, and security (all reliable) are
] an essential part of a facility's infrastructure (and that's why PAIX
] has them). When engineered on a facility-wide scale you get a stable
] platform on which to build up successive layers, and you get economies
] of scale by solving the problem once for everyone.

That's super. And I think PAIX's customers will appreciate it. I
also think that PAIX's customers will pay that cost as it's built
into the system, and that they will agree that it is a cost
effective service to purchase.

However, most of the colo's I'm aware of don't necessarily build
(more than some modicum of) power/security into the package, and
either leave it to the client or bill extra.

I believe that all ISPs of merit should have the facilities
provided above. I do believe it would benefit the "community" if
they were provided by a central authority, ie the meet-point
provider/vendor. I don't believe that the vendor is required to
provide them...

I ramble.

-alan

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> > Certainly it would be reprehensible if the MAE-E core
> > infrastructure (that which MFS owns/runs) wasn't backed up.
> > However, I believe it is.
> >
> > I do not believe that it is the responsibility of MFS to provide
> > power to individual's equipment that is co-located at the site.
>
> If reliable power is not considered an essential part of facility
> infrastructure, how would you suggest that tenants get it? I think

DC power is provided at all MFS facilities I'm aware of; the rub is
that most of our gear is AC. Does anyone know of inverters that take
MFS's -48dc (with what I'm told is 'positive-ground' power) and convert
it to 110vac? If not, we're probably going to have to build our own
battery rack and/or stick a generator on the roof at one of our MFS
colo sites.

> that the incident at the WilTel POP in Santa Clara, CA, is sufficient
> to prove that having individual tenants each supply their own
> (typically small) UPS is a Bad Thing - the power was out long enough
> to drain them to zero, furthermore (this part I have second hand) some
> of them didn't take well to being flatlined like that. If everyone
> were left to solve that problem on their own ... well, imagine
> everyone jockeying to park their trailer-mounted portable generator
> near the door. Yow.

> Stephen

Avi
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> > Check out the nice graph of MAE-East for that last 5 days. When are they
> > going to get a generator installed? Why can't you pay for a generator when
> > you are charging +30 people $5,700 a month?
>
> I can not wait to see this in next weeks info world....
>
> Titled "Major Internet Exchange Point has no backup power!"
>
> James D. Butt | voice 319.557.8463

Has always had plenty of DC backup of course...

Avi
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