Mailing List Archive

Stargates (In Defense of J.F.)
Excuse me just a little, but I would like to follow-up on the
Bush-o-Gram with regard to Jim Fleming and others whom Randy
would love to silence in this world.

I have read some of Jim's posts on his ideas of StarGates,
Galaxies and his idea of IPv8; and I'll be the first to admit
that I haven't taken the time to visit Jim's WWW site and
read his proposals and ideas. They do seem to be a radical
departure from the current way the IP world is moving; but I
can't say, because I have not actually read Jim's concepts
in any detail, so it is impossible to express any technical
or engineering opinion accuractly.

But..... on the other hand ...

Jim Fleming certainly has the right to dream and envision his
ideas in hopes of discovering 'A Better Paradigm' for scalable
global IP internetworking and to present those ideas in IETF WGs
and in NANOG, because his proposals relate directly to IP internetworking
and IP operations.

\begin{soapbox}

When we become a group of scientists and engineers who remain closed
to new ideas, no matter how radical they seem today, we become of the
same mindset of those we choose change when our ideas were 'new'.

I applaud Jim for having the courage and conviction to express his
ideas, however much we may disagree with them. I also give him
credit for not resorting to personal attacks when he is flamed
for advocating a somewhat 'revolutionary' approach.

IMO, it does not matter if we are talking the US Bill of Rights,
Internet Services, scientific theories, theological views, or
ideas of ethics and family, people deserve our respect; and that
includes those who present ideas and concepts that depart from
what is considered socially acceptable.

It took me 40 years of mistakes to realize that little gem of
wisdom above and my life is much, much happier not carrying
the baggage of others anger and frustration.

Those whom wish to "|/dev/null" all ideas and opinions that differ
from there own personal perspective only damage themselves in
the long run.

Those whom disagree with my ideas, either technical or otherwise,
are free to disagree. Those whom do not wish to read my opinions
or theories are welcome to discard them, and make yourself happy
at the same time.

But please, please do not associate your anger and frustration
toward me with others and pull them into the low-road discussions.
Jim's ideas are worthy of consideration, and I am the first to
apologize for not taking the time to review them, no matter
how radical the terms 'StarGate and Galaxy' seem.

\en{soapbox}


Better ideas on building the next frontier welcome! Or, as suggested,
have we reached the end off all secular knowledge in 1996 ;-)

Rhetorically Speaking...

Now back to blasting the failure of the MAE-WEST RS, and all the
*very interesting*, "I told you so"s and "at-a-boys".

Best Regards,

Tim

PS: Note to Jim Fleming.... what was that URL of your ideas? I am
inclined to read them now that we share the *heat* of the
"Burning Bush" together :-)



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Re: Stargates (In Defense of J.F.) [ In reply to ]
On Sun, 26 May 1996, Tim Bass wrote:

> Excuse me just a little, but I would like to follow-up on the
> Bush-o-Gram with regard to Jim Fleming and others whom Randy
> would love to silence in this world.

NANOG = North American Network Operators' Group
Tim, please stop lowering this list's signal/noise ratio. This list is not for
philophical treatise on anything. It's an operator's group. Discussion of
IPv8, merits or lack there of, and such is better suited for lists like
Big-internet, which is for non-operational side of things.

> I have read some of Jim's posts on his ideas of StarGates,
> Galaxies and his idea of IPv8; and I'll be the first to admit
> that I haven't taken the time to visit Jim's WWW site and
> read his proposals and ideas. They do seem to be a radical

Then don't comment.

> and in NANOG, because his proposals relate directly to IP internetworking
> and IP operations.

Wrong. As IPv8 currently stands, it has nothing to do with operations.

Once Jim documents it in an I-D, solicits peer review, and get at least two
interoperable implementations, then it would be of interest to NANOG. I'm sure
toy junkies like me would love to spend some time playing with implementation
of IPv8 once that happens.

Until then, please keep whatifs, philosophical rants etc off NANOG.

-dorian

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Re: Stargates (In Defense of J.F.) [ In reply to ]
Warning. This has nothing to do with network operations. Hit D now.

I warned you. You don't want to read this. It's off topic in the worse way.

Tim, you wrote:

>Excuse me just a little, but I would like to follow-up on the
>Bush-o-Gram with regard to Jim Fleming and others whom Randy
>would love to silence in this world.

While on the one hand Randy and I have not always seen eye to eye
and I am reluctant to be seen here as his apologist or defender, I
want to set the record straight.

Randy doesn't want to silence you. In fact, in the spirit of Patrick
Henry, Randy would (and has) risk his career and reputation to defend
the means by which you propagate your ideas. When you are looking for
censorship, you will end up looking elsewhere than in Randy's record.

Randy's post of his .mumblerc was meant to show that he does not read
your articles. Last time I checked, he has that right. Posting his
.mumblerc has at least two goals: (a) letting folks know why he might
not respond to something you write some time, and (b) setting an
example that others can follow should they become as disgusted with
your material as he is.

I don't kill your articles automagically; I'm still young enough and
irrational enough that I take some pleasure out of killing them by hand.

The fact that you can read what Randy wrote and somehow infer from it
that he wants to silence you is a shining example of why we were all
so sad that you didn't show up for your CIDRD slots at the LA IETF.
On the other hand, with the whole room (minus Randy) lined up at the
microphone to "ask questions" I don't know if we could have gotten
through the agenda.

I think you should LISTEN to the things folks say about you. Don't just
look for ways to dispute, or reasons to ignore, accusations of technical
ignorance or malevolent intent. LISTEN to the fact that they are made,
and try to see if you can find the things in your behaviour which lead
so many others to think that you are such a total loss.

Paul
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RE: Stargates (In Defense of J.F.) [ In reply to ]
On Sunday, May 26, 1996 10:50 AM, Dorian Kim[SMTP:dorian@cic.net] wrote:
@ On Sun, 26 May 1996, Tim Bass wrote:
@
@ > Excuse me just a little, but I would like to follow-up on the
@ > Bush-o-Gram with regard to Jim Fleming and others whom Randy
@ > would love to silence in this world.
@

I am not sure why people on the Internet want to silence people.
I thought that the Internet was born with a basic goal of breaking
down centralized control over information flow and the censorship
that always goes with power being concentrated in a few people's
hands (or minds)...

@ NANOG = North American Network Operators' Group
@ Tim, please stop lowering this list's signal/noise ratio. This list is not for
@ philophical treatise on anything. It's an operator's group. Discussion of
@ IPv8, merits or lack there of, and such is better suited for lists like
@ Big-internet, which is for non-operational side of things.
@

The OuterInternet is the best place to discuss IPv8 but you
have to have an IPv8 network to get there...

That is no differenent than saying one of the best places
to discuss space travel is while cruising around on the space
shuttle....just because a person is not on the space shuttle
does not mean they should have no opinions or be restricted
from discussing what it would be like...

BTW, it also helps to have the C+@ programming language
to fully discuss and understand IPv8...

no space shuttle is required...;-)

@ > I have read some of Jim's posts on his ideas of StarGates,
@ > Galaxies and his idea of IPv8; and I'll be the first to admit
@ > that I haven't taken the time to visit Jim's WWW site and
@ > read his proposals and ideas. They do seem to be a radical
@
@ Then don't comment.
@

People should be able to comment on whatever they like
to comment on...maybe people should not listen to comments
they do not want to hear...

@ > and in NANOG, because his proposals relate directly to IP internetworking
@ > and IP operations.
@
@ Wrong. As IPv8 currently stands, it has nothing to do with operations.
@

I am not sure about that...

Operations people may want to know how IPv8 packets
are encapsulated inside IPv4 packets and transmitted
across the network...this may have an impact on how
they configure their networks...

Also, operations people may find it useful to make the
10 minute changes required in their BSD systems to be
able to use simple IPv8 on their "internal" systems. This
can give them added security, and in some cases operations
people may find it useful to have a pure IPv8 sub-net and be
able to detect if an IPv4 system is plugged into the net.

Also, companies that are looking to the future and asking
operations people about options may find that it is easier
to build an IPv8 network now using the IPv4 network simply
for transport and then expand their corporate network using
IPv8 addressing. If IPv6 is ever deployed, the 43 bit IPv8
addresses can be easily tucked into the 128 bit IPv6 fields.

Correct me if I am wrong, but operations is not just restricted
to people sitting in front of a CRT waiting for an alarm to
sound...that would not be very interesting...

@ Once Jim documents it in an I-D, solicits peer review, and get at least two
@ interoperable implementations, then it would be of interest to NANOG. I'm sure
@ toy junkies like me would love to spend some time playing with implementation
@ of IPv8 once that happens.
@

You can more easily play with it on your internal networks.
It is important to do this because one can take a view of the
world that IPv4 is a sub-set of IPv8 and you have to play with
the technology to be able to develop this view.

Also, it is healthy to consider IPv8 because people interested
in preserving IPv4 via long-term address ecology efforts might
find that it is easier to do this with a "place to stand" like IPv8.
One does not have to jump to something as radical as IPv6
in order to be able to have a temporary place to sort out IPv4
legacy allocations.

@ Until then, please keep whatifs, philosophical rants etc off NANOG.
@

I would like to note that I have not said anything here. I am
not sure why I was the target of this discussion.

Several people have told me that they look forward to the
day when IPv8 networks provide them with a place to
move from the Legacy Internet where it seems that people
spend a lot of useful energy fighting things that they have
no ability to change.

IPv8 requires no change to the existing networks unless
the Network Operators find that they want to provide more
efficient service. IPv8 was intentionally designed with the
knowledge that people do not like change and also do not
like to discuss change.

Maybe the best thing to communicate to NANOG members
is that they do not have to do anything NEW to support IPv8.
People that use IPv8 will only be requesting basic IPv4
transport, and hopefully the sum total of Legacy Internet
operators will be able to provide a stable platform upon
which to build another Internet...the OuterInternet...

As you can see, I am not advocating change for
those people that have little ability or interest in
changing...for people that use IPv8 from day one,
they will of course not see "change"...

...consider the Windows 95 user that would not
change to Windows 3.11 (or DOS)...they just
move on...some follow and some do not...

...that is the nature of the computer and
telecommunications industry...things are
always changing...I do not see that changing...
--
Jim Fleming
UNETY Systems, Inc.
Naperville, IL

e-mail: JimFleming@unety.net

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Re: Stargates (In Defense of J.F.) [ In reply to ]
Jim laments (perhaps rhetorically):

> I am not sure why people on the Internet want to silence people.

Don't forget, the Roman Catholic Church burned, at the stake, thousands
of Minorites in the middle ages because the 'heretics' believed in poverty
and not in wealth. The Church thought that if people practiced the
joys of poverty, they would lose control of them.... the Emperors
also feared poverty and were afraid of any philosophy that did not
have wealth and power as the quintessential elements.

It is anti-social to speak of "other paradigms", "what the NSF did
with all their money over the years", "which government employee
now has an executive job with what network company"... etc....

It is not appropriate to speak of it anywhere, NANOG is no exception,
because of the potential explosiveness of the issues. That is why
questioning these things leads to flames. As long as everyone is
making $$$, no one cares what ethics are violated or how corrupt
the process has become. And, if you get too close to the truth,
they just award you a contract to silence you!

Please, just pipe me to /dev/null, where I belong. My love and hope
of a 'better, less commerical Internet' goes to /dev/zero as well :-(

Bravo Internet Minorites and Bravo Internet Franciscans !!

Lead me to the stake, for I shall die a glorious death.

Quixotically Speaking,

The Man of LaMancha

( I'll go quietly to the stake, and not disturb the Faith )

Goodbye, for I have sinned against Mother Network, and shall banish
myself from writing for a random time interval.

BTW: Before I go, how do I request the entire funding history
of the Internet by NSF, by contractor, deliverable, and dollar amount...
does that take The Freedom of Information Act ??

----

And if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear
You shout and no one seems to hear
And if the band your're in starts playing different tunes
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon.

-Roger Waters




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Re: Stargates (In Defense of J.F.) [ In reply to ]
On Mon, 27 May 1996, Tim Bass wrote:

I don't see why JF needs defending. He said that IPv8 is encapsulated in
IPv4 therefore network operators should not need to know about it.

> It is anti-social to speak of "other paradigms", "what the NSF did

Try com-priv@psi.com

Operations people only deal with the plumbing of the Internet, not with
what flows through the pipes or who controls the taps.

In fact, NANOG people don't even really deal with all operational issues
but only with that subset related to running the Internet core in North
America.

Michael Dillon ISP & Internet Consulting
Memra Software Inc. Fax: +1-604-546-3049
http://www.memra.com E-mail: michael@memra.com

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RE: Stargates (In Defense of J.F.) [ In reply to ]
On Mon, 27 May 1996, Jim Fleming wrote:

> On Sunday, May 26, 1996 10:50 AM, Dorian Kim[SMTP:dorian@cic.net] wrote:
> @ On Sun, 26 May 1996, Tim Bass wrote:
> @
> @ > Excuse me just a little, but I would like to follow-up on the
> @ > Bush-o-Gram with regard to Jim Fleming and others whom Randy
> @ > would love to silence in this world.
> @
>
> I am not sure why people on the Internet want to silence people.
> I thought that the Internet was born with a basic goal of breaking
> down centralized control over information flow and the censorship
> that always goes with power being concentrated in a few people's
> hands (or minds)...

Humm, I don't think ARPA cared about breaking down centralized control
over information flow and censorship. They wanted to connect DOD computers
together and could care less about most of the things the internet is used
for today.

Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today!
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Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201
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itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34


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RE: Stargates (In Defense of J.F.) [ In reply to ]
On Monday, May 27, 1996 7:13 PM, Nathan Stratton[SMTP:nathan@netrail.net] wrote:
@ On Mon, 27 May 1996, Jim Fleming wrote:
@
@ > On Sunday, May 26, 1996 10:50 AM, Dorian Kim[SMTP:dorian@cic.net] wrote:
@ > @ On Sun, 26 May 1996, Tim Bass wrote:
@ > @
@ > @ > Excuse me just a little, but I would like to follow-up on the
@ > @ > Bush-o-Gram with regard to Jim Fleming and others whom Randy
@ > @ > would love to silence in this world.
@ > @
@ >
@ > I am not sure why people on the Internet want to silence people.
@ > I thought that the Internet was born with a basic goal of breaking
@ > down centralized control over information flow and the censorship
@ > that always goes with power being concentrated in a few people's
@ > hands (or minds)...
@
@ Humm, I don't think ARPA cared about breaking down centralized control
@ over information flow and censorship. They wanted to connect DOD computers
@ together and could care less about most of the things the internet is used
@ for today.
@
@ Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today!

I stand corrected...I should have said..."corruption" not "censorship"...


--
Jim Fleming
UNETY Systems, Inc.
Naperville, IL

e-mail: JimFleming@unety.net

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