Mailing List Archive

I-D (Re: Out of date contact information )
Cathy wrote:

> You know that all this stuff was standardized long ago at an IETF
> working group? The group was called Network Joint Management.
> We all agreed that there should be a trouble mailing list for each NOC
> and I believe we agreed on AS mailing lists as well. It is a shame,
> but I don't believe that that group ever put out an RFC specifying
> this. There was also a group that worked on inter-NOC communications
> and sharing trouble tickets, etc.

Because (a) Randy has taught me that drafts speak louder than words, and
because (b) BIND is eating my face today and I needed a distraction, and
because (c) it's been several hours and bmanning hasn't written a new
draft to cover this conversation, I hereby submit the following.

If it seems like the right approach (that is, all I get back are editorial
nits, "good idea please continue"'s and "you forgot to mention"'s), I will
send this to the Ops A-D's and see what they want to do with it.







Operational Requirements Area Paul Vixie (ISC)
INTERNET-DRAFT May, 1996
<draft-vixie-ops-stdaddr-00.txt>


Standard Electronic Mail Addresses For Internet Operations


Status of this Memo

This document is an Internet-Draft. Internet-Drafts are working
documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), its areas,
and its working groups. Note that other groups may also distribute
working documents as Internet-Drafts.

Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
material or to cite them other than as ``work in progress.''

To learn the current status of any Internet-Draft, please check the
``1id-abstracts.txt'' listing contained in the Internet-Drafts Shadow
Directories on ftp.is.co.za (Africa), nic.nordu.net (Europe),
munnari.oz.au (Pacific Rim), ds.internic.net (US East Coast), or
ftp.isi.edu (US West Coast).


Abstract

This draft enumerates and describes standard electronic mail
addresses to be used when contacting the operations personnel of an
arbitrary domain.

As an operational standard, the recommendations herein pertain to
vendors only inasmuch as their end user documentation should
recommend that these mail addresses be aliased to appropriate end
user personnel.

This document should be advanced as a recommended standard, since
some of the behaviour it advocates is not prevalent enough to be
called the ``best current practice.''







Expires November 1996 [Page 1]

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1 - Rationale and Scope

1.1. Several previous RFC documents have specified electronic mail
addresses to be used when reaching the operators of the new service; for
example, [RFC822 6.3, C.6] requires the presence of a
<POSTMASTER@domain> address on all hosts that have an SMTP server.

1.2. Other protocols have defacto standards for well known addresses,
such as <USENET@domain> for NNTP (see [RFC977]), and <WEBMASTER@domain>
for HTTP (see [HTTP]).

1.3. Defacto standards also exist for well known addresses which have
nothing to do with a particular protocol, e.g., <ABUSE@domain> and
<TROUBLE@domain>.

1.4. The purpose of this draft is to collect all of these well known
addresses in one place, add a few new ones, and ultimately recommend
that IANA carry these addresses in future editions of its Defined
Numbers periodical.

2 - Definitions and Invariants

2.1. The scope of a well known mail address is its domain name. Thus,
the mail exchangers (see [RFC974]) for a domain must handle well known
addresses even though some of these addresses might pertain to services
not offered by the mail exchanger hosts. So, for example, if an NNTP
server advertises the organization's top level domain in ``Path:''
headers (see [RFC977]), the mail exchangers for that top level domain
must accept mail to <USENET@domain> even if the mail exchanger hosts do
not serve the NNTP protocol.

2.2. A host is not required to run its own SMTP server, but every host
that implements a protocol covered by a well known mail address should
have an MX RRset (see [RFC974]) and the mail exchangers specified by
this RRset should recognize this host's domain name as ``local'' for the
purpose of accepting mail bound for a well known address. Note that
this is true even if the advertised domain name is not the same as the
host's domain name; for example, if an NNTP server's host name is
DATA.RAMONA.VIX.COM yet it advertises the domain name VIX.COM in its
``Path:'' headers, then mail must be deliverable to both
<USENET@VIX.COM> and <USENET@DATA.RAMONA.VIX.COM>.







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2.3. For well known addresses that are not related to protocols, only
the organization's top level domain name need be valid. For example, if
an Internet service provider's domain name is NETCOM.COM, then the
<ABUSE@NETCOM.COM> address must be deliverable, even though the
customers whose activity generates complaints use hosts with more
specific domain names like SHELL1.NETCOM.COM.

2.4. Well known addresses ought to be recognized independent of
character case. For example, POSTMASTER, postmaster, Postmaster,
PostMaster, and even PoStMaStEr should all be deliverable and should all
be delivered to the same mailbox.

3 - Well Known Addresses

3.1. Protocol Related Addresses

Address Protocol Standard(s)
-------------------------------------------
postmaster SMTP [RFC821], [RFC822]
usenet NNTP [RFC977]
webmaster HTTP [HTTP]
uucp UUCP [RFC976]


3.2. Protocol Independent Addresses

Address Operations Area Example Usage
--------------------------------------------------------------
abuse Customer Relations Inappropriate public behaviour
noc Network Operations Network infrastructure problem
trouble Network Operations Synonym for ``noc''
support Customer Support Product or service not working


4 - Other Well Known Addresses

4.1. Many mailing lists have an administrative address to which add/drop
requests and other metaqueries can be sent. For a mailing list whose
submission address is <LIST@DOMAIN>, the usual administrative address is
<LIST-REQUEST@DOMAIN>. With the advent of list management software such
as MajorDomo, this convention is becoming less common and its absence
for any given mailing list should be treated as an inconvenience rather
than as an error or standards violation.





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4.2. Several Internet Registries implement mailing lists for Autonomous
System contacts. So, for example, mail sent to <AS3557@RA.NET> will at
the time of this writing reach the technical contact for Autonomous
System 3557 in the BGP4 (see [RFC1654], [RFC1655] and [RFC1656]). Not
all Autonomous Systems are registered with all registries, however, and
so undeliverable addresses under this scheme should be treated as an
inconvenience rather than as an error or a standards violation.

5 - Security Considerations

Denial of service attacks (flooding a mailbox with junk) will be easier
after this document becomes a standard.

6 - References

[RFC821]
J. Postel, "Simple Mail Transfer Protocol", RFC 821, Information
Sciences Institute, 08/01/1982

[RFC822]
D. Crocker, "Standard for the format of ARPA Internet text messages",
RFC 822, University of Delaware, 08/13/1982.

[RFC974]
C. Partridge, "Mail routing and the domain system", RFC 974, CSNET
CIC BBN Laboratories Inc, 01/01/1986.

[RFC976]
M. Horton, "UUCP mail interchange format standard", RFC 976, Bell
Laboratories, 02/01/1986.

[RFC977]
B. Kantor (et al), "Network News Transfer Protocol: A Proposed
Standard for the Stream-Based Transmission of News", RFC 977,
University of California, February 1986.

[RFC1654]
Y. Rekhter (et al), "A Border Gateway Protocol 4 (BGP-4)", RFC 1654,
T.J. Watson Research Center, IBM Corp., 07/21/1994.

[RFC1655]
Y. Rekhter (et al), "Application of the Border Gateway Protocol in
the Internet", RFC 1655, T.J. Watson Research Center, IBM Corp.,
07/21/1994.




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[RFC1656]
P. Traina, "BGP-4 Protocol Document Roadmap and Implementation
Experience", RFC 1656, cisco Systems, July 1994.

[HTTP]
T. Berners-Lee (et al), "Hypertext Transfer Protocol -- HTTP/1.0",
<draft-ietf-http-v10-spec-05.txt>.

7 - Author's Address

Paul Vixie
Internet Software Consortium
Star Route Box 159A
Woodside, CA 94062
+1 415 747 0204
<paul@vix.com>
































Expires November 1996 [Page 5]

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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
I would suggest adding "hostmaster" for DNS issues (and suggesting that
this be the address listed as the contact in DNS SOA records).

--
Stan | Academ Consulting Services |internet: sob@academ.com
Olan | For more info on academ, see this |uucp: {mcsun|amdahl}!academ!sob
Barber | URL- http://www.academ.com/academ |Opinions expressed are only mine.
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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
In message <9605030534.AA13791@wisdom.home.vix.com> Paul Vixie wrote:
> 3 - Well Known Addresses
>
> 3.1. Protocol Related Addresses
>
> Address Protocol Standard(s)
> -------------------------------------------
> postmaster SMTP [RFC821], [RFC822]
> usenet NNTP [RFC977]
> webmaster HTTP [HTTP]
> uucp UUCP [RFC976]

This list should probably also contain `hostmaster' as the contact for
DNS-related matters. Although *in principle* this contact information should
be obtainable from the SOA RR for the zone, standardising it here should
make things easier.

James

======= ___ === James Aldridge, Network Engineer,
====== / / / ___ ____ _/_ ==== EUnet Communications Services BV
===== /--- / / / / /___/ / ===== Singel 540, 1017 AZ Amsterdam, NL
==== /___ /___/ / / /___ /_ ====== Tel. +31 20 6233803; Fax. +31 20 6224657
=== ======= [ 24hr emergency number +31 20 4210865 ]
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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
Below, please find three messages, three replies, and an updated draft.

> From: sob@academ.com (Stan Barber)
>
> I would suggest adding "hostmaster" for DNS issues (and suggesting that
> this be the address listed as the contact in DNS SOA records).

Done.

> From: Michael Dillon <michael@memra.com>
>
> > 4 - Other Well Known Addresses
> >
> > 4.1. Many mailing lists have an administrative address to which add/drop
> > requests and other metaqueries can be sent. For a mailing list whose
> > submission address is <LIST@DOMAIN>, the usual administrative address is
> > <LIST-REQUEST@DOMAIN>. With the advent of list management software such
> > as MajorDomo, this convention is becoming less common and its absence
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Are you sure of this? There is a "list-managers" list somewhere that might
> be worth checking into to be sure.

I have observed the fact that the convention is becoming less common; we can
lament it (see below) but it will remain a fact.

> > for any given mailing list should be treated as an inconvenience rather
> > than as an error or standards violation.
>
> Fair enough, but perhaps the RFC could "urge" list admins to create a
> -request form of their list name since it does create a predictable place
> to send administrivia. Otherwise you end up trying listserv, listproc,
> majordomo and who knows what else.

That's reasonable. Done.

> You might also suggest that sites in a country where English is not the
> official language should also implement native language aliases for all
> these terms where possible.

I don't think that's reasonable for something like this. RFC's are published
in english. Protocol header names are in english. The assigned numbers RFC
is in english. POSTMASTER is in english. I think that if someone wants to
address the non-english language problem that this would be a good thing, but
that's a separate document and I see no need to mention it here.

> Maybe close off the RFC with a sample /etc/aliases file that has all the
> suggested names aliased to an account named "admin" including some
> comments for the ones (USENET) that are likely to be needed on other than
> a mail server. Remember, this RFC will be read by a lot more newbies than
> most RFC's.

I appreciate your confidence in this document, but it's not an RFC yet. I
am reluctant to do as you suggest since it would require making up addresses
to be the targets of the well known addresses, or using real addresses that
would ultimately be bombarded by the newbies you keep talking about. (Not
to mention that Sendmail is not the only mail transport in town and not all
newbies will recognize an aliases file or be able to interpret one.)

> From: James Aldridge <jhma@EU.net>
>
> [...]
>
> This list should probably also contain `hostmaster' as the contact for
> DNS-related matters. Although *in principle* this contact information should
> be obtainable from the SOA RR for the zone, standardising it here should
> make things easier.

Stan beat you to this suggestion, but thanks just the same.







Operational Requirements Area Paul Vixie (ISC)
INTERNET-DRAFT May, 1996
<draft-vixie-ops-stdaddr-01.txt>


Standard Electronic Mail Addresses For Internet Operations


Status of this Memo

This document is an Internet-Draft. Internet-Drafts are working
documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), its areas,
and its working groups. Note that other groups may also distribute
working documents as Internet-Drafts.

Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
material or to cite them other than as ``work in progress.''

To learn the current status of any Internet-Draft, please check the
``1id-abstracts.txt'' listing contained in the Internet-Drafts Shadow
Directories on ftp.is.co.za (Africa), nic.nordu.net (Europe),
munnari.oz.au (Pacific Rim), ds.internic.net (US East Coast), or
ftp.isi.edu (US West Coast).


Abstract

This draft enumerates and describes standard electronic mail
addresses to be used when contacting the operations personnel of an
arbitrary domain.

As an operational standard, the recommendations herein pertain to
vendors only inasmuch as their end user documentation should
recommend that these mail addresses be aliased to appropriate end
user personnel.

This document should be advanced as a recommended standard, since
some of the behaviour it advocates is not prevalent enough to be
called the ``best current practice.''







Expires November 1996 [Page 1]

INTERNET-DRAFT STD ADDR May 1996


1 - Rationale and Scope

1.1. Several previous RFC documents have specified electronic mail
addresses to be used when reaching the operators of the new service; for
example, [RFC822 6.3, C.6] requires the presence of a
<POSTMASTER@domain> address on all hosts that have an SMTP server.

1.2. Other protocols have defacto standards for well known addresses,
such as <USENET@domain> for NNTP (see [RFC977]), and <WEBMASTER@domain>
for HTTP (see [HTTP]).

1.3. Defacto standards also exist for well known addresses which have
nothing to do with a particular protocol, e.g., <ABUSE@domain> and
<TROUBLE@domain>.

1.4. The purpose of this draft is to collect all of these well known
addresses in one place, add a few new ones, and ultimately recommend
that IANA carry these addresses in future editions of its Defined
Numbers periodical.

2 - Definitions and Invariants

2.1. The scope of a well known mail address is its domain name. Thus,
the mail exchangers (see [RFC974]) for a domain must handle well known
addresses even though some of these addresses might pertain to services
not offered by the mail exchanger hosts. So, for example, if an NNTP
server advertises the organization's top level domain in ``Path:''
headers (see [RFC977]), the mail exchangers for that top level domain
must accept mail to <USENET@domain> even if the mail exchanger hosts do
not serve the NNTP protocol.

2.2. A host is not required to run its own SMTP server, but every host
that implements a protocol covered by a well known mail address should
have an MX RRset (see [RFC974]) and the mail exchangers specified by
this RRset should recognize this host's domain name as ``local'' for the
purpose of accepting mail bound for a well known address. Note that
this is true even if the advertised domain name is not the same as the
host's domain name; for example, if an NNTP server's host name is
DATA.RAMONA.VIX.COM yet it advertises the domain name VIX.COM in its
``Path:'' headers, then mail must be deliverable to both
<USENET@VIX.COM> and <USENET@DATA.RAMONA.VIX.COM>.







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2.3. For well known addresses that are not related to protocols, only
the organization's top level domain name need be valid. For example, if
an Internet service provider's domain name is NETCOM.COM, then the
<ABUSE@NETCOM.COM> address must be deliverable, even though the
customers whose activity generates complaints use hosts with more
specific domain names like SHELL1.NETCOM.COM.

2.4. Well known addresses ought to be recognized independent of
character case. For example, POSTMASTER, postmaster, Postmaster,
PostMaster, and even PoStMaStEr should all be deliverable and should all
be delivered to the same mailbox.

3 - Well Known Addresses

3.1. Protocol Related Addresses

Address Protocol Standard(s)
--------------------------------------------------------
postmaster SMTP [RFC821], [RFC822]
hostmaster DNS [RFC1033], [RFC1034], [RFC1035]
usenet NNTP [RFC977]
webmaster HTTP [HTTP]
uucp UUCP [RFC976]


3.2. Protocol Independent Addresses

Address Operations Area Example Usage
--------------------------------------------------------------
abuse Customer Relations Inappropriate public behaviour
noc Network Operations Network infrastructure problem
trouble Network Operations Synonym for ``noc''
support Customer Support Product or service not working















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4 - Other Well Known Addresses

4.1. Many mailing lists have an administrative address to which add/drop
requests and other metaqueries can be sent. For a mailing list whose
submission address is <LIST@DOMAIN>, the usual administrative address is
<LIST-REQUEST@DOMAIN>. With the advent of list management software such
as MajorDomo, this convention is becoming less common and its absence
for any given mailing list should be treated as a standards violation.
Make sure that your lists each have a *-REQUEST address and complain to
remote POSTMASTERs when you discover remote lists without *-REQUEST
addresses.

4.2. Several Internet Registries implement mailing lists for Autonomous
System contacts. So, for example, mail sent to <AS3557@RA.NET> will at
the time of this writing reach the technical contact for Autonomous
System 3557 in the BGP4 (see [RFC1654], [RFC1655] and [RFC1656]). Not
all Autonomous Systems are registered with all registries, however, and
so undeliverable addresses under this scheme should be treated as an
inconvenience rather than as an error or a standards violation.

4.3. In DNS (see [RFC1033], [RFC1034] and [RFC1035]), the Start Of
Authority record (SOA RR) has a field for specifying the mail address of
the zone's administrator. This field should be a simple word without
metacharacters (such as ``%'' or ``!'' or ``::''), and a transport level
alias should be used on the relevant mail exchanger hosts to direct zone
administration mail to the appropriate mailbox. For simplicity and
regularity, it is hereby recommended that the well known address
HOSTMASTER always be used.

5 - Security Considerations

Denial of service attacks (flooding a mailbox with junk) will be easier
after this document becomes a standard.

6 - References

[RFC821]
J. Postel, "Simple Mail Transfer Protocol", RFC 821, Information
Sciences Institute, 08/01/1982

[RFC822]
D. Crocker, "Standard for the format of ARPA Internet text messages",
RFC 822, University of Delaware, 08/13/1982.





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INTERNET-DRAFT STD ADDR May 1996


[RFC974]
C. Partridge, "Mail routing and the domain system", RFC 974, CSNET
CIC BBN Laboratories Inc, 01/01/1986.

[RFC976]
M. Horton, "UUCP mail interchange format standard", RFC 976, Bell
Laboratories, 02/01/1986.

[RFC977]
B. Kantor (et al), "Network News Transfer Protocol: A Proposed
Standard for the Stream-Based Transmission of News", RFC 977,
University of California, February 1986.

[RFC1033]
M. Lottor, "Domain administrators operations guide", RFC 1033, SRI
International, 11/01/1987.

[RFC1034]
P. Mockapetris, "Domain names - concepts and facilities", RFC 1035,
USC/Information Sciences Institute, 11/01/1987.

[RFC1035]
P. Mockapetris, ``Domain Names - Implementation and Specification,''
RFC 1035, USC/Information Sciences Institute, November 1987.

[RFC1654]
Y. Rekhter (et al), "A Border Gateway Protocol 4 (BGP-4)", RFC 1654,
T.J. Watson Research Center, IBM Corp., 07/21/1994.

[RFC1655]
Y. Rekhter (et al), "Application of the Border Gateway Protocol in
the Internet", RFC 1655, T.J. Watson Research Center, IBM Corp.,
07/21/1994.

[RFC1656]
P. Traina, "BGP-4 Protocol Document Roadmap and Implementation
Experience", RFC 1656, cisco Systems, July 1994.

[HTTP]
T. Berners-Lee (et al), "Hypertext Transfer Protocol -- HTTP/1.0",
<draft-ietf-http-v10-spec-05.txt>, February 19, 1996.







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7 - Acknowledgements

Thanks to Stan Barber, Michael Dillon, and James Aldridge for their
comments on this document.

8 - Author's Address

Paul Vixie
Internet Software Consortium
Star Route Box 159A
Woodside, CA 94062
+1 415 747 0204
<paul@vix.com>


$Id: stdaddr.txt,v 1.2 1996/05/03 08:04:37 vixie Exp vixie $
































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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
On Thu, 2 May 1996, Paul A Vixie wrote:

> Standard Electronic Mail Addresses For Internet Operations

I like it overall -- definately needed right around now. Just a
few comments....

> 4 - Other Well Known Addresses
>
> 4.1. Many mailing lists have an administrative address to which add/drop
> requests and other metaqueries can be sent. For a mailing list whose
> submission address is <LIST@DOMAIN>, the usual administrative address is
> <LIST-REQUEST@DOMAIN>. With the advent of list management software such
> as MajorDomo, this convention is becoming less common and its absence
> for any given mailing list should be treated as an inconvenience rather
> than as an error or standards violation.

A list of some of these might not be a bad idea, since many users
will be unfamiliar with more standard addresses. I'd suggest including
(in no particular order) the following:

Address Operations Area Example Usage
--------------------------------------------------------------
hostmaster Network Operations DNS issues
security Network Operations System security or hacking
www Customer Support Same as webmaster
listowner Customer Support Mailing list administrator
routing Network Operations Network routing issues
nic Network Operations Same as noc
news Customer Support Same as usenet
help Customer Support Same as support

> 5 - Security Considerations
>
> Denial of service attacks (flooding a mailbox with junk) will be easier
> after this document becomes a standard.

Would it be appropriate to mention Procmail here as a partial
solution, or would that be better suited to a seperate document?

---------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@cybernothing.org> =========---------
| "He who waits for the sword to fall upon his neck |
| will surely lose his head." -Stephen R. Donaldson |
----========== http://www.cybernothing.org/jdfalk/home.html ==========----


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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
> [...] I'd suggest including (in no particular order) the following:
>
> Address Operations Area Example Usage
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> hostmaster Network Operations DNS issues
> security Network Operations System security or hacking
> www Customer Support Same as webmaster
> listowner Customer Support Mailing list administrator
> routing Network Operations Network routing issues
> nic Network Operations Same as noc
> news Customer Support Same as usenet
> help Customer Support Same as support

hostmaster was done in the -01 draft, sent shortly ago. security seems
reasonable but is this current practice anywhere you know of? www and
news are current practice, i'll add those but note that these are used
for internal errors in those services and may point to different folks
than the ones for external queries.

listowner is new to me. i've seen listserv. i think this is slippery
enough to warrant a blanket "use *-REQUEST or POSTMASTER" which is what
-01 says. comments on this are welcome.

routing is a current practice. i'll add it.

nic should probably be a synonym for hostmaster rather than noc.

help for support seems reasonable.

should the document state which of these are recommended for new sites
and which are listed only for backward compatibility with random older
nonstandardized sites? i think so.

> > 5 - Security Considerations
> >
> > Denial of service attacks (flooding a mailbox with junk) will be easier
> > after this document becomes a standard.
>
> Would it be appropriate to mention Procmail here as a partial
> solution, or would that be better suited to a seperate document?

totally inappropriate for this document, thanks for asking though.
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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
On Thu, 2 May 1996, J.D. Falk lists some other typical aliases:

> Address Operations Area Example Usage
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> hostmaster Network Operations DNS issues
> security Network Operations System security or hacking
> www Customer Support Same as webmaster
> listowner Customer Support Mailing list administrator
> routing Network Operations Network routing issues
> nic Network Operations Same as noc
> news Customer Support Same as usenet
> help Customer Support Same as support

Here are a couple more in a similar vein:

info Customer Support automated response
sales Customer Support directed to sales dept.
ftp-admin Customer Support FTP administrator

Hmm, it'd be cool if there was an automated mailbot for publishing
NOC contact information, too -- something like "noc-info"?

Pete
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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 3 May 1996, Paul A Vixie wrote:

> > [...] I'd suggest including (in no particular order) the following:
> >
> > Address Operations Area Example Usage
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > hostmaster Network Operations DNS issues
> > security Network Operations System security or hacking
> > www Customer Support Same as webmaster
> > listowner Customer Support Mailing list administrator
> > routing Network Operations Network routing issues
> > nic Network Operations Same as noc
> > news Customer Support Same as usenet
> > help Customer Support Same as support
>
> hostmaster was done in the -01 draft, sent shortly ago. security seems
> reasonable but is this current practice anywhere you know of?

I beleive that SprintLink uses it, but I've got permanent routing
anomalies in my memory so I can't be sure.

[various other comments munged]
> should the document state which of these are recommended for new sites
> and which are listed only for backward compatibility with random older
> nonstandardized sites? i think so.

Agreed.

---------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@cybernothing.org> =========---------
| "Whatever thy hand findest to do, do it with all thy heart." |
| -- Jesus of Nazareth |
----========== http://www.cybernothing.org/jdfalk/home.html ==========----

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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
Paul A Vixie
>
> > [...] I'd suggest including (in no particular order) the following:
> >
> > Address Operations Area Example Usage
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > hostmaster Network Operations DNS issues
> > security Network Operations System security or hacking
> > www Customer Support Same as webmaster
> > listowner Customer Support Mailing list administrator
> > routing Network Operations Network routing issues
> > nic Network Operations Same as noc
> > news Customer Support Same as usenet
> > help Customer Support Same as support
>
> hostmaster was done in the -01 draft, sent shortly ago. security seems
> reasonable but is this current practice anywhere you know of? www and
> news are current practice, i'll add those but note that these are used
> for internal errors in those services and may point to different folks
> than the ones for external queries.

don't know if security is a standard alias anywhere else but mci uses it
extensively. it would seem a *good* practice for everyone to use that
alias.

> listowner is new to me. i've seen listserv. i think this is slippery
> enough to warrant a blanket "use *-REQUEST or POSTMASTER" which is what
> -01 says. comments on this are welcome.

i've seen list owner a quite a few provider type domains. at least
in places where someone runs a bunch of lists from majordomo. actually
i guess i've seen it aliased to majordomo, or synonamous with.

-brett
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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
I've added SECURITY since we need something like it and this is the name
most people who have it now are using.

I've added ROUTING to do what TROUBLE is often used to do.

Since I agree with Randy than a minimum useful set seems ideal, I've added
a new section ("optional, less well known addresses") with NIC, WWW, NEWS,
LISTOWNER, TROUBLE (no longer "recommended", in favour of ROUTING and NOC),
and HELP.

> From: kaminski@nanospace.com (Peter Kaminski)
>
> Here are a couple more in a similar vein:
>
> info Customer Support automated response
> sales Customer Support directed to sales dept.
> ftp-admin Customer Support FTP administrator

I'll add INFO as a general contact point. SALES is outside our scope (this
is a technology document after all). Rather than FTP-ADMIN how about FTP?
I'll make FTP-ADMIN an "optional, less well known address".

> From: David Stoddard <dgs@us.net>
>
> On our net, we have developed a series of role accounts based on
> various ways our customers have tried to reach us over the past
> three years. This list is intentionally comprehensive in order to
> reach the widest possible audience. Some folks may find these
> useful. Some of these, including billing, info, and sales, are
> used commonly by many providers.
>
> Role Account Aliases Description
> ------------ ------------ --------------------------------------
> postmaster maiser SMTP Administration
> hostmaster Domain Contact
> gophermaster Gopher Server Administration
> webmaster Web Server Administration
> uucp UUCP Administration
> usenet news NNTP Administration
> news-request news-requests News Group Requests
> root operator System Administrator
> ops
> abuse security Security Administrator
> secure
> decode
> dns dnsadmin Domain Administration
> noc trouble Network Operations
> routes routing Routing Administrator
> admin manager Administrative Management
> office
> asNNNN AS Contact (where NNNN is AS number)
> billing bills Customer Billing
> account accounts Account Administration
> subscribe
> subscription
> info information Automated Info Reply Server
> info-request
> sales marketing Sales and Marketing
> support supports Customer Support
> service
> services
> help
> bounce test Mail Test Reflector

Some of those choices are amazing to me, like ABUSE->SECURITY. I will add
ROOT to the less-well-known table. I briefly considered adding asNNNN but
I think ROUTING will serve adequately for the purpose of this document.

With this feedback, I believe the document is ready to go to Cynthia. I'll
send it to the OPS AD's, both of whom have said this thing is reasonable.
Remember that although this started on NANOG, that was because NANOG hosted
a discussion thread that inspired me to write this common knowledge down.
Once IETF gets it, the document's scope becomes international. Thus, there
will probably be some more addresses added in the first post-Cynthia rev.
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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
> > I've added ROUTING to do what TROUBLE is often used to do.
>
> I question whether this is a good idea -- some providers have a
> "routing" mailing list that isn't really intended for public
> dissemination and use. For instance, routing@uunet.uu.net and
> routing@es.net both bypass their respective NOCs and go straight to
> engineering types -- perhaps we need to pick a new name for those
> sorts of lists, but I really don't see what having a "routing"
> buys us over "noc".

This is the kind of collision that makes this "standard" expensive to
implement. Folks elsewhere use ROUTING as a way to reach the folks
who want to hear about externally visible routing problems; NETCOM
for example advertises this address in its RADB elements. I think
that folks like UUNET and ESNET will have to pick new addresses if
they don't want their engineers getting spammed. Sorry about that.


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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 3 May 1996, Paul A Vixie wrote:

> I've added SECURITY since we need something like it and this is the name
> most people who have it now are using.
>
> I've added ROUTING to do what TROUBLE is often used to do.
>
> Since I agree with Randy than a minimum useful set seems ideal, I've added
> a new section ("optional, less well known addresses") with NIC, WWW, NEWS,
> LISTOWNER, TROUBLE (no longer "recommended", in favour of ROUTING and NOC),
> and HELP.

Just one nitpick. As best as I can tell, usage of trouble@xxx.net is still
very current and prevalent.

-dorian


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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
(I'm removing all addresses but "nanog@merit.edu" from the headers when
I reply to someone I know is on the list -- I hope everyone else starts
doing this also, so that I'll stop getting two copies of everything...)

> Just one nitpick. As best as I can tell, usage of trouble@xxx.net is still
> very current and prevalent.
>
> -dorian

This is another gray area. I don't consider this address name to have been
well chosen, since TROUBLE doesn't say much about what kind of trouble one
is experiencing. If my car won't start after I interview at xxx.net, and
I'm stuck in the parking lot, should I send mail to TROUBLE@xxx.NET from my
little Radiomail HP200? Probably not. But the name doesn't say.

Therefore the document recommends ROUTING and NOC, and makes TROUBLE into
an optional "backward compatibility" address. This is because I'm trying
to describe the BEST current practice rather than ALL current practices.

This won't be universally easy for folks to implement, but I believe the
'net will be a better place after that necessary pain than it is now.
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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
In message <9605031731.AA14579@wisdom.home.vix.com> you write:
> I've added SECURITY since we need something like it and this is the name
> most people who have it now are using.

You might want to consider adding CERT as a common alias for SECURITY (or
vice versa).

James

======= ___ === James Aldridge, Network Engineer,
====== / / / ___ ____ _/_ ==== EUnet Communications Services BV
===== /--- / / / / /___/ / ===== Singel 540, 1017 AZ Amsterdam, NL
==== /___ /___/ / / /___ /_ ====== Tel. +31 20 6233803; Fax. +31 20 6224657
=== ======= [ 24hr emergency number +31 20 4210865 ]
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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
> > Maybe close off the RFC with a sample /etc/aliases file that has all the
> > suggested names aliased to an account named "admin" including some
> > comments for the ones (USENET) that are likely to be needed on other than
> > a mail server. Remember, this RFC will be read by a lot more newbies than
> > most RFC's.
>
> I appreciate your confidence in this document, but it's not an RFC yet. I
> am reluctant to do as you suggest since it would require making up addresses
> to be the targets of the well known addresses, or using real addresses that
> would ultimately be bombarded by the newbies you keep talking about. (Not
> to mention that Sendmail is not the only mail transport in town and not all
> newbies will recognize an aliases file or be able to interpret one.)
>

You might consider using the domain Example.ORG (sort of the
RFC 1918 of domains) if you decide to build some appendixen.

You might want to note the prior work done by the NJM working group.

--bill
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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
> From: bmanning@ISI.EDU
>
> You might consider using the domain Example.ORG (sort of the
> RFC 1918 of domains) if you decide to build some appendixen.

If a domain example were all I needed, I'd do as you suggest. What I'm
trying to avoid is aliases point to either real, or imagined addresses.
If I put "root: steve" in the document, some poor Steve somewhere some
time is going to get inundated by root's mail and he'll (correctly and
justly) blame _me_ for it.

> You might want to note the prior work done by the NJM working group.

I would be most happy to do that, but can you give me a more solid ref?
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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
> From: James Aldridge <jhma@EU.net>
>
> You might want to consider adding CERT as a common alias for SECURITY (or
> vice versa).

I don't think so. CERT has passed from the relative to the absolute; in
my mind there is only one CERT, not one per site as originally recommended.
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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
You wrote:

>> security Network Operations System security or hacking

> hostmaster was done in the -01 draft, sent shortly ago. security seems
> reasonable but is this current practice anywhere you know of? www and
> news are current practice, i'll add those but note that these are used
> for internal errors in those services and may point to different folks
> than the ones for external queries.

security is currently in use at NETCOM, although it doesn't go anywhere
near Network Operations. :-)

+j
--
Jeff Rizzo
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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
> ftp-admin Customer Support FTP administrator

Why not just `ftp'?

The mailing list admin might reasonably be `listmaster'.

It would be best to choose something other than postmaster as the example
in the case-sensitivity section, because postmaster is unlike all other
addresses in that it is already required to be case-insensitive. It's
probably also a good idea to recommend that the canonical form be lowercase.

--
Shields, CrossLink.


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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
......... James Aldridge is rumored to have said:
]
] In message <9605031731.AA14579@wisdom.home.vix.com> you write:
] > I've added SECURITY since we need something like it and this is the name
] > most people who have it now are using.
]
] You might want to consider adding CERT as a common alias for SECURITY (or
] vice versa).

And while you're at it, add SPRINT for routing policy information
at all the sites.

-a

tongue-near-cheek

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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
>
> > From: bmanning@ISI.EDU
> >
> > You might consider using the domain Example.ORG (sort of the
> > RFC 1918 of domains) if you decide to build some appendixen.
>
> If a domain example were all I needed, I'd do as you suggest. What I'm
> trying to avoid is aliases point to either real, or imagined addresses.
> If I put "root: steve" in the document, some poor Steve somewhere some
> time is going to get inundated by root's mail and he'll (correctly and
> justly) blame _me_ for it.
>

Might be a good time to reflect that using fqdn's in alias files
is a good practice; e.g.

geek: bmanning

is less prefered than

geek: bmanning@example.org


(Oh, and if volunteer use would be an acceptable alternative,
please consider using bmanning as an example :)

--
--bill
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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
Paul A Vixie wrote:

> > I would suggest adding "hostmaster" for DNS issues (and suggesting that
> > this be the address listed as the contact in DNS SOA records).
>
> Done.

With ISP's assigning addresses to their customers rather than the Internic, would customer IP
address request be included in hostmaster@isp.net or would this warrent a new name.

--
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| Paul Steiger paul@pbi.net \|/ |
| Network Engineer --*-- |
| Pacific Bell Internet Services /|\ |
| 303 2nd Street, Suite 650 |
| San Francisco, CA 94107 http://www.pbi.net |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 3 May 1996, Paul Steiger wrote:

> Paul A Vixie wrote:
>
> > Done.
>
> With ISP's assigning addresses to their customers rather than the Internic, would customer IP
> address request be included in hostmaster@isp.net or would this warrent a new name.

At CICNet, systems adminstration staff does DNS, and network engineering staff
does ip address allocations. Personally, I think this division makes sense as
ip address allocation is very much married to the network topology. So I think
this should either be something else independent of dns address, like
ip-request@isp.net or be folded into the generic routing@isp.net type general
purpose address.

Just my $0.02
-dorian


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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 3 May 1996, Paul A Vixie wrote:

> > From: bmanning@ISI.EDU
> > You might want to note the prior work done by the NJM working group.
>
> I would be most happy to do that, but can you give me a more solid ref?

Here are pointers to minutes of NJM meetings where I remember us
discussing these issues:

ftp://ftp.ietf.cnri.reston.va.us/ietf/njm/njm-minutes-91nov.txt
ftp://ftp.ietf.cnri.reston.va.us/ietf/njm/njm-minutes-92jul.txt

-Chris

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Re: I-D (Re: Out of date contact information ) [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 3 May 1996, Michael Shields wrote:

> > ftp-admin Customer Support FTP administrator
> Why not just `ftp'?

Same reason that www and webmaster are often separate entities. Since
most FTP-related software runs as 'ftp', errors, etc. are usually sent
there, whereas ftp-admin is widely used to reach the (human) FTP archive
maintainer.

// Matt Zimmerman Chief of System Management NetRail, Inc.
// mdz@netrail.net sales@netrail.net
// (703) 524-4800 [voice] (703) 524-4802 [data] (703) 534-5033 [fax]

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