Mailing List Archive

Uh, you have been pre-dated by about 3 years by the

Commercial Internet Exchange

lots of network operators and access providers already belong.

If what you propose hasn't been done in that already-existing forum,
maybe there's a reason that would foretell the expected success
of another parallel organization?

-mo

I expect Mike that Tim is well aware of the history of the CIX which just
a year ago was reaching an all time low. Now Bob collet has done well
since he took over, but the CIX still does not have widespread support.
It formed a CIX mail list about a month ago. I joined. *NO* traffic.
It has never been able to communicate outside the bounds of its own
members and until it finds a way to do this successfully will not become
*THE* trade association that I think the industry really DOES need.
Tim's posts may be a bit quixotic but they DO point to an unfilled need.

********************************************************************
Gordon Cook, Editor & Publisher Subscript.: Individ-ascii $85
The COOK Report on Internet Non Profit. $150
431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ 08618 Small Corp & Gov't $200
(609) 882-2572 Corporate $350
Internet: cook@cookreport.com Corporate. Site Lic $650
Newly expanded COOK Report Web Pages http://pobox.com/cook/
********************************************************************


On Sun, 5 Nov 1995, Mike O'Dell wrote:

>
> Uh, you have been pre-dated by about 3 years by the
>
> Commercial Internet Exchange
>
> lots of network operators and access providers already belong.
>
> If what you propose hasn't been done in that already-existing forum,
> maybe there's a reason that would foretell the expected success
> of another parallel organization?
>
> -mo
>

>
> I expect Mike that Tim is well aware of the history of the CIX which just

Thank you Gordon. Of course I am well aware of CIX. In another one
of my Don Quixote style 'quixotic' posts I asked the question directly

" where does all the CIX funding money ...?" if you recall, and my
call with sword in hand, windmill in sight was fell silently in the rain.

> a year ago was reaching an all time low. Now Bob collet has done well
> since he took over, but the CIX still does not have widespread support.
> It formed a CIX mail list about a month ago. I joined. *NO* traffic.
> It has never been able to communicate outside the bounds of its own
> members and until it finds a way to do this successfully will not become
> *THE* trade association that I think the industry really DOES need.

As a personal fan of Mr. Quixote, and a passionate romantic at heart
as well an hopeless romantic that believes in social conscious above
profit ....... IPSPA.ORG would.

1) Attempt to create very inexpensive NAPs that encourage small
ISPs to participate;

2) Work openly and directly with the community to create a
commerical internet position and policy that would hope
to mitigate the untasteful image of the Internet as a
enclave of lawless citizens;

3) Work openly and publically to create an image of Internet Citizen:

i) The New American Dream;
ii) A Link on Every Land;
iii) Clean Unadulterated Enclaves for Our Children to Play;
iv) Promote Internet based Educational services; including
the ability to work on advance degrees on-line;
v) Work to provide Internet Services for the members of
or Society typically ignored in modern society;

a) the elderly;
b) the poor and socially disadvantaged;
c) the handicapped; and
d) the sick and dying.


I agree totally with Gordon. I am a passionate romatic out to change the
world and at 40 years old I thought that I had challenged my last windmill.

Until recently....

The Internet as such a tremendous and almost unlimited potential to
to good for the People we love and care about, bringing everyone
closer together in a time in history we all need to come together
on the things that unite us and laugh at the things that divide us.

Quixotically, as usual ....

Tim



--
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Tim Bass | #include<campfire.h> |
| Principal Network Systems Engineer | for(beer=100;beer>1;beer++){ |
| The Silk Road Group, Ltd. | take_one_down(); |
| | pass_it_around(); |
| http://www.silkroad.com/ | } |
| | back_to_work(); /*never reached */ |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+

What are we to do when in the middle of $$$ goldrush we essentially have
the internet composed of groups that other than keeping it operating
share very little in the way of common motivations and goals?

With the CIX I have seen a recognition of a need to change and some new
directions floated. Yet I have seen nothing to suggest that the
organizations policy has really reached outside that of ithe
organizations of its board members. Last time I looked at the CIX web
they touted about 200 members....all in a nice single list with no
distinction of how many had paid the $7,500 price of membership as
opposed to the new and minimal $1,000.

I believe that internet business model issues will be critical next
year. Starting with quality of service issues that hans Werner has
written about here and going on to issue of traffic or route based
settlements, and fall out from CIDR routing issues, there are straws in
the wind that could make 1996 a year of crunch by the largest two dozen
ISPs against the rest.

I perceive Tim's call as being directed at the rest..... most of which
are too busy trying to figure out how to cost effectively serve new
customers than to organize. I hear rumblings about a new world
federation of internet groups. Sounds good to me. Cause with the RBOCs
and Cable banging at the door, ISOC fumbling just as badly as the CIX,
people suggesting that the IETF needs to incorporate but no one there
finding time to do it, I sure do wonder who and/or what will ever manage
to preserve and protect the internet vision?

********************************************************************
Gordon Cook, Editor & Publisher Subscript.: Individ-ascii $85
The COOK Report on Internet Non Profit. $150
431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ 08618 Small Corp & Gov't $200
(609) 882-2572 Corporate $350
Internet: cook@cookreport.com Corporate. Site Lic $650
Newly expanded COOK Report Web Pages http://pobox.com/cook/
********************************************************************

> Uh, you have been pre-dated by about 3 years by the
>
> Commercial Internet Exchange
>
> lots of network operators and access providers already belong.
>
> If what you propose hasn't been done in that already-existing forum,
> maybe there's a reason that would foretell the expected success
> of another parallel organization?
>
> -mo
>
I don't know... CIX has some fundamental flaws. CIX was primarily
built, as near as I can tell, to carry out the personal agendas
of a select few. I don't know whether or not IPSPA has a chance of
avoiding this problem. However, CIX has definitely suffered as a
result of some of it's policies and attitudes.

Owen

Sorry if my point was over-stressed.

If an alternative is to be created because of perceived failings of an
existing structure, an accurate understanding of the alleged failure
modes would seem to be required to avoid reproducing those failures.

I'm not suggesting how or even whether anything has failed, and I'm not
even willing to consider Tim's suggestion Quixotic - that somehow makes
it sound doomed ab initio.

As for mail volume on Bob's new list, I wouldn't be too quick to assume
that somehow volume correlates with either earnestness of intentions
or efficacy.

cheers,
-mo

< condensed from Gordon's reply>
>
> ........................... Sounds good to me. Cause with the RBOCs
> and Cable banging at the door, ISOC fumbling just as badly as the CIX,
> people suggesting that the IETF needs to incorporate but no one there
> finding time to do it, I sure do wonder who and/or what will ever manage
> to preserve and protect the internet vision?

The irony of the situation is interesting. We are almost in complete
control of our destination. The US is in the process of an historical
telecommunications deregulation. The 'last mile' in wireless is moving
to DS3 by 1Q 96 and the FCC is opening it's procedures as never before.

Meanwhile, with a wide open ocean, sunny skies and an unprecedented
tail wind.... we can chart our own course and destiny. We all understand
that telecommuncations is the corner stone of the democratic process.
We all understand the power of the media. We all understand that united
we grow, divided we fall. But most important of all, we all know in
our hearts that technical progress without an basic foundation in
the advancement of our fragile social fabric is futile.

Have you ever seen the joy in an elderly person, retired, isolated from
the world, on the Internet, communicating with both the young and old.
The most beautiful sound I heard this week was my mother, a grandmother,
telling me how much she want to .... " cruise the net and explore
cyberspace ..." with a sound of excitement in her voice I have not
heard in years.

We stand on the edge of a social event that has the potential to
reshape the world, much like Einstein's much hailed atomic theories.
IPSPA.ORG should consider the social benefit that the Internet brings
to society, our children, our grandparents, the isolated, the weak.

This is our ultimate social responsibility as citizens. If we do this
with kind consideration of our fragile infrastructure as we build
networks, our civilization benefits greatly.

There are a lot more "profits" to reap than the $$$$ mentioned earlier.
There is an intangible social benefit that will do more for our
democracy and society than money can ever buy.

That is what we should strive to obtain and value...... the things
in life that money, included federal money cannot buy and has never
bought since the dawn of social programs in the country.

.... quixotically believing in the American dream.....

Tim



--
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Tim Bass | #include<campfire.h> |
| Principal Network Systems Engineer | for(beer=100;beer>1;beer++){ |
| The Silk Road Group, Ltd. | take_one_down(); |
| | pass_it_around(); |
| http://www.silkroad.com/ | } |
| | back_to_work(); /*never reached */ |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+

I hate to get involved in another CIX-bashing session, and I will try
really hard to avoid it. CIX does a lot of work in Washington D.C.,
going to FCC meetings and various congressional subcommittee meetings
and trying to represent the ISP/NSP point of view. I have no idea how
effective they are since I don't follow the details -- but they do seem
to keep busy.

My own part of the CIX universe is to maintain (and recently, to grow)
the CIX interconnect. We aren't the center of the Internet, but there
is no center of the Internet so I'm not feeling left out.

We're also plunging ahead with the IRTS project, I'll send a postscript
file to anyone who asks to see the original white paper on it.

This isn't meant to take away from Tim Bass' proposal, which might be
necessary and reasonable. I just hate to see statements of the form,
"CIX is a no-op" go unchallenged.

CIX was the original "NAP" so please be nice to it. If it has to die,
let it be in peace and with honours. And maybe it doesn't have to die,
so maybe you should give Bob Collet a call before you make up your mind.

Paul writes:>

> I hate to get involved in another CIX-bashing session, and I will try
> really hard to avoid it. CIX does a lot of work in Washington D.C.,

(condensed)

I agree whole heartedly. In my proposal for IPSPA, I have not, bashed
the CIX and do not support any CIX bashing. Any work that IPSPA can
hope to accomplish fully supports all Internet organizations, including
the CIX.

Bob Collet is a fine person, we have had the great pleasure to work together,
and his work for the Internet community is well respected and appreciated.
His love for the Internet is admirable and I honor the work and fellowship
we shared at Sprint.

The goals and visions that I have tried to forward for an organization like
IPSPA.ORG do not include bashing CIX or any other group working for
the common good and interest of the Internet Community.

It is my quixotic hope, as Gordon so dearly put it, that IPSPA.ORG will
move well beyond the traditional and work in an organized, procedural,
network based non-profit corporation, working closely with the Internet
Community, if the interest is solid. (there are a total of three
people on the IPSPA mailing list now.... pretty humble beginnings...
but at least majordomo seems to be working)

My first goal for IPSPA would be to use our first IPSPA budget to build
internet services for the elderly in a location that would benefit many
of our elderly citizens. I will contribute $500.00 toward this project
as soon as the Corporation is established next week. In addition,
I will contribute the domain registration fees and the original fees
for incorporating IPSPA. Other contributions to IPSPA are warmly appreciated.
A WWW page will be created so all funds will be accounted for in public for
full disclosure. Also, my private corporation will provide all accouting
services, in the beginning, out of our corporate budget. It is the least
we can do, considering how much the Internet has done for us.

I think it would be very rewarding for IPSPA members to get into the
holiday spirit early and let's work together to bring the Internet
to those who need it ... one project, one success story at a time.

Tim

--
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Tim Bass | #include<campfire.h> |
| Principal Network Systems Engineer | for(beer=100;beer>1;beer++){ |
| The Silk Road Group, Ltd. | take_one_down(); |
| | pass_it_around(); |
| http://www.silkroad.com/ | } |
| | back_to_work(); /*never reached */ |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+

since i was not in geneva I cannot be sure.

********************************************************************
Gordon Cook, Editor & Publisher Subscript.: Individ-ascii $85
The COOK Report on Internet Non Profit. $150
431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ 08618 Small Corp & Gov't $200
(609) 882-2572 Corporate $350
Internet: cook@cookreport.com Corporate. Site Lic $650
Newly expanded COOK Report Web Pages http://pobox.com/cook/
********************************************************************


On Sun, 5 Nov 1995, Michael Dillon wrote:

> On Sun, 5 Nov 1995, Gordon Cook wrote:
>
> > I hear rumblings about a new world
> > federation of internet groups.
>
> Is this something that got started at Telecomm 95 in Geneva?
>
>
> Michael Dillon Voice: +1-604-546-8022
> Memra Software Inc. Fax: +1-604-542-4130
> http://www.memra.com E-mail: michael@memra.com
>
>

On Sun, 5 Nov 1995, Gordon Cook wrote:

> I hear rumblings about a new world
> federation of internet groups.

Is this something that got started at Telecomm 95 in Geneva?


Michael Dillon Voice: +1-604-546-8022
Memra Software Inc. Fax: +1-604-542-4130
http://www.memra.com E-mail: michael@memra.com

On Sun, 5 Nov 1995, Gordon Cook wrote:

> What are we to do when in the middle of $$$ goldrush we essentially have
> the internet composed of groups that other than keeping it operating
> share very little in the way of common motivations and goals?
>
> With the CIX I have seen a recognition of a need to change and some new
> directions floated. Yet I have seen nothing to suggest that the
> organizations policy has really reached outside that of ithe
> organizations of its board members. Last time I looked at the CIX web
> they touted about 200 members....all in a nice single list with no
> distinction of how many had paid the $7,500 price of membership as
> opposed to the new and minimal $1,000.
>
> I believe that internet business model issues will be critical next
> year. Starting with quality of service issues that hans Werner has
> written about here and going on to issue of traffic or route based
> settlements, and fall out from CIDR routing issues, there are straws in
> the wind that could make 1996 a year of crunch by the largest two dozen
> ISPs against the rest.
>
> I perceive Tim's call as being directed at the rest..... most of which
> are too busy trying to figure out how to cost effectively serve new
> customers than to organize. I hear rumblings about a new world
> federation of internet groups. Sounds good to me. Cause with the RBOCs
> and Cable banging at the door, ISOC fumbling just as badly as the CIX,
> people suggesting that the IETF needs to incorporate but no one there
> finding time to do it, I sure do wonder who and/or what will ever manage
> to preserve and protect the internet vision?
>

I agree. Lets manage ourselves before we get managed.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael A. Nasto Customer Support Manager
NYSERNet, Inc. Phone: 315-453-2912 x 256
200 Elwood Davis Road Fax: 315-453-3052
Suite 103 Email: mnasto@franklin.nysernet.org
Liverpool, NY 13088-6147 mnasto@transit.nyser.net
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Carpe Diem +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On Sun, 5 Nov 1995, Tim Bass wrote:

>
> < condensed from Gordon's reply>
>
> We stand on the edge of a social event that has the potential to
> reshape the world, much like Einstein's much hailed atomic theories.
> IPSPA.ORG should consider the social benefit that the Internet brings
> to society, our children, our grandparents, the isolated, the weak.
>
> That is what we should strive to obtain and value...... the things
> in life that money, included federal money cannot buy and has never
> bought since the dawn of social programs in the country.
>
> .... quixotically believing in the American dream.....
>
> Tim
>

As long as it is "quixotic" not chaotic

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael A. Nasto Customer Support Manager
NYSERNet, Inc. Phone: 315-453-2912 x 256
200 Elwood Davis Road Fax: 315-453-3052
Suite 103 Email: mnasto@franklin.nysernet.org
Liverpool, NY 13088-6147 mnasto@transit.nyser.net
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Carpe Diem +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

> Okay, so I am a little nuts. I've sent a domain template
> to the NIC for IPSPA.ORG.... It just seemed like the right
> thing to do :-)
>
> 1) Next week, I'll register IPSPA as a non-profit corp in some
> nice state;
>
> 2) Maybe we will get lucky and have some members;
>
> 3) We will build low cost NAPs for IPSPA.ORG members;

You laugh ... however, RTD is a few short weeks away from having NAPs up
and running in Tucson and Phoenix.

It's primarily intended for local providers, so that we can at least
control quality standards in the region ourselves. If larger peers want
to show up, nobodies going to kick them out of bed though...we've got a bed
big enough for everybody. hehe.

Dave

--
Dave Siegel President, RTD Systems & Networking, Inc.
(520)623-9663 Systems Consultant -- Unix, LANs, WANs, Cisco
dsiegel@rtd.com User Tracking & Acctg -- "Written by an ISP,
http://www.rtd.com/ for an ISP."

> Uh, you have been pre-dated by about 3 years by the
>
> Commercial Internet Exchange
>
> lots of network operators and access providers already belong.
>
> If what you propose hasn't been done in that already-existing forum,
> maybe there's a reason that would foretell the expected success
> of another parallel organization?

The CIX is great if you're in Santa Clara, or somewhere nearby, but it
tends to be pretty slow, and isn't much use to those of us outside the
state of California.

Dave

--
Dave Siegel President, RTD Systems & Networking, Inc.
(520)623-9663 Systems Consultant -- Unix, LANs, WANs, Cisco
dsiegel@rtd.com User Tracking & Acctg -- "Written by an ISP,
http://www.rtd.com/ for an ISP."

>
>
> Uh, you have been pre-dated by about 3 years by the
>
> Commercial Internet Exchange
>
> lots of network operators and access providers already belong.
>
> If what you propose hasn't been done in that already-existing forum,
> maybe there's a reason that would foretell the expected success
> of another parallel organization?
>
> -mo
>
Pizza & Beer at the meetings?

Larry

> >
> > If what you propose hasn't been done in that already-existing forum,
> > maybe there's a reason that would foretell the expected success
> > of another parallel organization?
> >
> > -mo
> >

> Pizza & Beer at the meetings?
>
> Larry
>

Pizza & Beer at the meetings were the main attraction of IPSPA.ORG.

Studies by major corporations indicate that pizza is the single
most motivating factor to get people more involved :-)

In addition, according to historians the US Declaration of Independance
was drafted over and over again, mainly due to the Samual Adams
Lager that was spilled on the parchment.

There are countless events of historical significance where either
pizza or beer have literally changed the course of human events.

It was also leaked to the press that the real secret to the early
success in talks at the Bosnian crisis was *not* the constant
NATO shelling. Someone simply called out for Pizza and Beer :-)

-Tim


--
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Tim Bass | #include<campfire.h> |
| Principal Network Systems Engineer | for(beer=100;beer>1;beer++){ |
| The Silk Road Group, Ltd. | take_one_down(); |
| | pass_it_around(); |
| http://www.silkroad.com/ | } |
| | back_to_work(); /*never reached */ |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+

>> 3) We will build low cost NAPs for IPSPA.ORG members;
>
>You laugh ... however, RTD is a few short weeks away from having NAPs up
>and running in Tucson and Phoenix.
>
>It's primarily intended for local providers, so that we can at least
>control quality standards in the region ourselves. If larger peers want
>to show up, nobodies going to kick them out of bed though...we've got a bed
>big enough for everybody. hehe.

A NW peering point is currently about 3-4 weeks away. Initially it will be
done via fully meshed frame relay, until traffic dictates otherwise.

This peering point will be _solely_ for keeping local traffic local and
not for providing transit.

If anyone is interested, there is a mailing list, nw-internet@structured.net
(subscription requests to majordomo@structured.net), setup for discussing
this.

Eric

--
Eric Kozowski Structured Network Systems, Inc.
kozowski@structured.net Better, Cheaper, Faster -- pick any two.
(503)656-3530 Voice "Providing High Quality, Reliable Internet Service"
(800)881-0962 Voice 56k to DS1

> The CIX is great if you're in Santa Clara, or somewhere nearby, but it
> tends to be pretty slow, and isn't much use to those of us outside the
> state of California.

Well over half of the connected CIX members have their main corporate offices
outside California. And I don't experience slowness in the SMDS cloud; the
packet loss rate is higher on either MAE's shared FDDI than on Pac Bell's SMDS.

Just one man's opinion. I don't speak for CIX.