Mailing List Archive

> While the times are changing, women continue to remain primary caregivers
for families and this will require them to desert their families a day
early. I find it offensive personally and feel like you may have missed
the mark.

The hackathon has for (as far as I’ve known about it) been on Sunday. I
don’t work on Sundays - it’s a day for my family (unless the almighty pager
goes off), so I’ve never gone - even though it’s one of the parts of NANOG
I’d enjoy, and would benefit from the most.

There are tradeoffs for everything - perhaps the idea was to keep the
women’s mixer separate from the other evening events, so that those who
wish to participate, can do all of the evening events, and not have to give
up anything, at the cost of the extra day. That being said, I agree, moving
more to Sunday is not an acceptable answer to me.

Best Regards,
-Thomas Scott

On Mar 28, 2024 at 1:45:07?PM, Ilissa Miller <ilissa@imillerpr.com> wrote:

> For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input about NANOG
> matters due to my past affiliation, however, I just saw that NANOG
> announced the Women mixer on Sunday before NANOG 91 and am outraged for all
> of the young professional women
> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
> This Message Is From an Untrusted Sender
> You have not previously corresponded with this sender.
>
> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
> For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input about NANOG
> matters due to my past affiliation, however, I just saw that NANOG
> announced the Women mixer on Sunday before NANOG 91 and am outraged for all
> of the young professional women who would like to participate in NANOG.
> While the times are changing, women continue to remain primary caregivers
> for families and this will require them to desert their families a day
> early. I find it offensive personally and feel like you may have missed
> the mark.
>
> The amount of times I hear people complain about having to leave their
> families is one of the reasons this industry has a problem keeping young
> people - especially women.
>
> Does anyone else feel the same?
>
>
>
> --
> *Ilissa Miller*
> *CEO, iMiller Public Relations
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.imillerpr.com__;!!I6uDfDBXfA!181DBJ-FtVXbxl2Cf3GD05kg0qsfnD4gdtQI9hJ64xq3Q6B0MHGT1XNwKAr9Vv-qdyTXEvwN7JrbIVyu$>*
>
>
>
>

On 3/28/24 19:45, Ilissa Miller wrote:

> For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input
> about NANOG matters due to my past affiliation, however, I just saw
> that NANOG announced the Women mixer on Sunday before NANOG 91 and am
> outraged for all of the young professional women who would like to
> participate in NANOG.  While the times are changing, women continue to
> remain primary caregivers for families and this will require them to
> desert their families a day early.  I find it offensive personally and
> feel like you may have missed the mark.

Minds are hard to read, so asking the question before being offended is
not an unproductive endeavour. That said, we are here now.


> The amount of times I hear people complain about having to leave their
> families is one of the reasons this industry has a problem keeping
> young people - especially women.
>
> Does anyone else feel the same?

If you have a better suggestion on what would work best, I'd be keen to
hear it.

Mark.

Illissa,
The mixer is at 5pm Sunday, this allows people to network and prepare for the week. Sunday also has a hackathon, registration, and often a welcome social. NANOG has a very compressed schedule and another time would actually mean that the women participating would have to pick between this event and another event or talk that may be critical to their job function, which is also unfair.

We are advertising this mixer to make sure all are aware and can attend, and the mixers will be on the schedule at the same approximate time at each meeting going forward.

I hope we will see you there.

Tina Morris


On Mar 28, 2024, at 14:12, Thomas Scott <mr.thomas.scott@gmail.com> wrote:

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CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know the content is safe.


> While the times are changing, women continue to remain primary caregivers for families and this will require them to desert their families a day early. I find it offensive personally and feel like you may have missed the mark.

The hackathon has for (as far as I’ve known about it) been on Sunday. I don’t work on Sundays - it’s a day for my family (unless the almighty pager goes off), so I’ve never gone - even though it’s one of the parts of NANOG I’d enjoy, and would benefit from the most.

There are tradeoffs for everything - perhaps the idea was to keep the women’s mixer separate from the other evening events, so that those who wish to participate, can do all of the evening events, and not have to give up anything, at the cost of the extra day. That being said, I agree, moving more to Sunday is not an acceptable answer to me.

Best Regards,
-Thomas Scott

On Mar 28, 2024 at 1:45:07?PM, Ilissa Miller <ilissa@imillerpr.com<mailto:ilissa@imillerpr.com>> wrote:
For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input about NANOG matters due to my past affiliation, however, I just saw that NANOG announced the Women mixer on Sunday before NANOG 91 and am outraged for all of the young professional women
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For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input about NANOG matters due to my past affiliation, however, I just saw that NANOG announced the Women mixer on Sunday before NANOG 91 and am outraged for all of the young professional women who would like to participate in NANOG. While the times are changing, women continue to remain primary caregivers for families and this will require them to desert their families a day early. I find it offensive personally and feel like you may have missed the mark.

The amount of times I hear people complain about having to leave their families is one of the reasons this industry has a problem keeping young people - especially women.

Does anyone else feel the same?



--
Ilissa Miller
CEO, iMiller Public Relations<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.imillerpr.com__;!!I6uDfDBXfA!181DBJ-FtVXbxl2Cf3GD05kg0qsfnD4gdtQI9hJ64xq3Q6B0MHGT1XNwKAr9Vv-qdyTXEvwN7JrbIVyu$>

There was a Women in Tech Mixer on Sunday in Charlotte as well. As I recall
there was a pretty decent attendance.

During my time on the PC, we always got a lot of feedback about Sunday when
the topic came up. Some members were strongly opposed to anything on Sunday
and didn't even like the Hackathon there. Others wanted expansion, and more
things slotted in. There certainly wasn't anything remotely close to a
consensus. Sometimes people can make it in early on Sunday. Sometimes they
can't. There's no one size fits all answer.

I'm not sure people realize how much crap that staff and the PC get *every
meeting* about the agenda. There's always someone unhappy because this
event wasn't the same, or why was it in this room over here, or OMG Wed
afternoon, etc. Having seen how that sausage gets made, they don't get
enough credit.

In my opinion, they found a spot that they had room for, and if people can
make it with their schedules, then great. If not, hopefully a future slot
can work.

On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 1:46?PM Ilissa Miller <ilissa@imillerpr.com> wrote:

> For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input about NANOG
> matters due to my past affiliation, however, I just saw that NANOG
> announced the Women mixer on Sunday before NANOG 91 and am outraged for all
> of the young professional women who would like to participate in NANOG.
> While the times are changing, women continue to remain primary caregivers
> for families and this will require them to desert their families a day
> early. I find it offensive personally and feel like you may have missed
> the mark.
>
> The amount of times I hear people complain about having to leave their
> families is one of the reasons this industry has a problem keeping young
> people - especially women.
>
> Does anyone else feel the same?
>
>
>
> --
> *Ilissa Miller*
> *CEO, iMiller Public Relations <http://www.imillerpr.com>*
>
>
>
>

> I'm not sure people realize how much crap that staff and the PC get *every meeting* about the agenda. There's always someone unhappy because this event wasn't the same, or why was it in this room over here, or OMG Wed afternoon, etc. Having seen how that sausage gets made, they don't get enough credit.

Having been the chair of the Asilomar Microcomputer workshop, and the founder and chair of the original Email Deliverability Summits, as well as organizing many legal conferences, I have to say "^^^ this, 1000%."

Furthermore:

> On Mar 28, 2024, at 11:45 AM, Ilissa Miller <ilissa@imillerpr.com> wrote:
>
> For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input about NANOG matters

..and you haven't here, either. Pointing fingers and griping about things is not constructive. If you really care about this issue, then get involved and help change it.

Anne

---
Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
Internet Law & Policy Attorney
CEO Institute for Social Internet Public Policy (ISIPP)
Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal email marketing law)
Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
Dean Emeritus, Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School
Prof. Emeritus, Lincoln Law School
Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
Counsel Emeritus, eMail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)

On 3/28/24 21:08, Tom Beecher wrote

> There was a Women in Tech Mixer on Sunday in Charlotte as well. As I
> recall there was a pretty decent attendance.
>
> During my time on the PC, we always got a lot of feedback about Sunday
> when the topic came up. Some members were strongly opposed to anything
> on Sunday and didn't even like the Hackathon there. Others wanted
> expansion, and more things slotted in. There certainly wasn't
> anything remotely close to a consensus. Sometimes people can make it
> in early on Sunday. Sometimes they can't. There's no one size fits all
> answer.
>
> I'm not sure people realize how much crap that staff and the PC get
> *every meeting* about the agenda. There's always someone unhappy
> because this event wasn't the same, or why was it in this room over
> here, or OMG Wed afternoon, etc. Having seen how that sausage gets
> made, they don't get enough credit.
>
> In my opinion, they found a spot that they had room for, and if people
> can make it with their schedules, then great. If not, hopefully a
> future slot can work.

Typical constraints such as scheduling and resources notwithstanding,
100% participation is not often guaranteed in most things. It's about
planning for as many as can make it. With some luck, it would be the
majority.

Mark.

I beg to differ here and second Ilissa’s comments. I miss WiT. Lunch
during the meeting worked. Giving up more of the weekend to travel does
not show half the population gathering matters.


On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 15:16 Morris, Tina via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
wrote:

> Illissa,
> The mixer is at 5pm Sunday, this allows people to network and prepare for
> the week. Sunday also has a hackathon, registration, and often a welcome
> social. NANOG has a very compressed schedule and another time would
> actually mean that the women participating would have to pick between this
> event and another event or talk that may be critical to their job
> function, which is also unfair.
>
> We are advertising this mixer to make sure all are aware and can attend,
> and the mixers will be on the schedule at the same approximate time at
> each meeting going forward.
>
> I hope we will see you there.
>
> Tina Morris
>
>
> On Mar 28, 2024, at 14:12, Thomas Scott <mr.thomas.scott@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?
>
> *CAUTION*: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know
> the content is safe.
>
> > While the times are changing, women continue to remain primary
> caregivers for families and this will require them to desert their families
> a day early. I find it offensive personally and feel like you may have
> missed the mark.
>
> The hackathon has for (as far as I’ve known about it) been on Sunday. I
> don’t work on Sundays - it’s a day for my family (unless the almighty pager
> goes off), so I’ve never gone - even though it’s one of the parts of NANOG
> I’d enjoy, and would benefit from the most.
>
> There are tradeoffs for everything - perhaps the idea was to keep the
> women’s mixer separate from the other evening events, so that those who
> wish to participate, can do all of the evening events, and not have to give
> up anything, at the cost of the extra day. That being said, I agree, moving
> more to Sunday is not an acceptable answer to me.
>
> Best Regards,
> -Thomas Scott
>
> On Mar 28, 2024 at 1:45:07?PM, Ilissa Miller <ilissa@imillerpr.com> wrote:
>
>> For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input about NANOG
>> matters due to my past affiliation, however, I just saw that NANOG
>> announced the Women mixer on Sunday before NANOG 91 and am outraged for all
>> of the young professional women
>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>> This Message Is From an Untrusted Sender
>> You have not previously corresponded with this sender.
>>
>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>
> For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input about NANOG
>> matters due to my past affiliation, however, I just saw that NANOG
>> announced the Women mixer on Sunday before NANOG 91 and am outraged for all
>> of the young professional women who would like to participate in NANOG.
>> While the times are changing, women continue to remain primary caregivers
>> for families and this will require them to desert their families a day
>> early. I find it offensive personally and feel like you may have missed
>> the mark.
>>
>> The amount of times I hear people complain about having to leave their
>> families is one of the reasons this industry has a problem keeping young
>> people - especially women.
>>
>> Does anyone else feel the same?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Ilissa Miller*
>> *CEO, iMiller Public Relations
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.imillerpr.com__;!!I6uDfDBXfA!181DBJ-FtVXbxl2Cf3GD05kg0qsfnD4gdtQI9hJ64xq3Q6B0MHGT1XNwKAr9Vv-qdyTXEvwN7JrbIVyu$>*
>>
>>
>>
>>

It's easily fixed by having a mixer at the same time for the other half of the gathering population thus showing all the population gathering matters equally.



On 29 March 2024 2:50:19?pm ACDT, Ren Provo <ren.provo@gmail.com> wrote:
>I beg to differ here and second Ilissa’s comments. I miss WiT. Lunch
>during the meeting worked. Giving up more of the weekend to travel does
>not show half the population gathering matters.
>
>
>On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 15:16 Morris, Tina via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
>wrote:
>
>> Illissa,
>> The mixer is at 5pm Sunday, this allows people to network and prepare for
>> the week. Sunday also has a hackathon, registration, and often a welcome
>> social. NANOG has a very compressed schedule and another time would
>> actually mean that the women participating would have to pick between this
>> event and another event or talk that may be critical to their job
>> function, which is also unfair.
>>
>> We are advertising this mixer to make sure all are aware and can attend,
>> and the mixers will be on the schedule at the same approximate time at
>> each meeting going forward.
>>
>> I hope we will see you there.
>>
>> Tina Morris
>>
>>
>> On Mar 28, 2024, at 14:12, Thomas Scott <mr.thomas.scott@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>>
>> *CAUTION*: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
>> click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know
>> the content is safe.
>>
>> > While the times are changing, women continue to remain primary
>> caregivers for families and this will require them to desert their families
>> a day early. I find it offensive personally and feel like you may have
>> missed the mark.
>>
>> The hackathon has for (as far as I’ve known about it) been on Sunday. I
>> don’t work on Sundays - it’s a day for my family (unless the almighty pager
>> goes off), so I’ve never gone - even though it’s one of the parts of NANOG
>> I’d enjoy, and would benefit from the most.
>>
>> There are tradeoffs for everything - perhaps the idea was to keep the
>> women’s mixer separate from the other evening events, so that those who
>> wish to participate, can do all of the evening events, and not have to give
>> up anything, at the cost of the extra day. That being said, I agree, moving
>> more to Sunday is not an acceptable answer to me.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> -Thomas Scott
>>
>> On Mar 28, 2024 at 1:45:07?PM, Ilissa Miller <ilissa@imillerpr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input about NANOG
>>> matters due to my past affiliation, however, I just saw that NANOG
>>> announced the Women mixer on Sunday before NANOG 91 and am outraged for all
>>> of the young professional women
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>> This Message Is From an Untrusted Sender
>>> You have not previously corresponded with this sender.
>>>
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>>
>> For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input about NANOG
>>> matters due to my past affiliation, however, I just saw that NANOG
>>> announced the Women mixer on Sunday before NANOG 91 and am outraged for all
>>> of the young professional women who would like to participate in NANOG.
>>> While the times are changing, women continue to remain primary caregivers
>>> for families and this will require them to desert their families a day
>>> early. I find it offensive personally and feel like you may have missed
>>> the mark.
>>>
>>> The amount of times I hear people complain about having to leave their
>>> families is one of the reasons this industry has a problem keeping young
>>> people - especially women.
>>>
>>> Does anyone else feel the same?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *Ilissa Miller*
>>> *CEO, iMiller Public Relations
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.imillerpr.com__;!!I6uDfDBXfA!181DBJ-FtVXbxl2Cf3GD05kg0qsfnD4gdtQI9hJ64xq3Q6B0MHGT1XNwKAr9Vv-qdyTXEvwN7JrbIVyu$>*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

On 3/29/24 06:20, Ren Provo wrote:

> I beg to differ here and second Ilissa’s comments.  I miss WiT.  Lunch
> during the meeting worked.  Giving up more of the weekend to travel
> does not show half the population gathering matters.

It would be interesting to survey the % of attending women who:

    - Would be able to make the mixer.
    - Would not be able to make the mixer due to family commitments.
    - Would not be able to make the mixer due to non-family commitments.
    - Would prefer a different women's meeting format and/or activity.

I think this data would be useful because while some women may voice
difficulty with attending the mixer (or wanting a different women's
meeting format/activity), it might be premature to attribute that
difficulty to all women that would be in attendance.

Understanding where the majority of women lie can help the NANOG PC make
better decisions about how to support both the majority and minority of
women as it pertains to a mixer or other activity women may like to
participate in at or around the conference.

Mark.

On 3/29/24 07:03, Eric Parsonage wrote:

> It's easily fixed by having a mixer at the same time for the other
> half of the gathering population thus showing all the population
> gathering matters equally.

My memory is a little fuzzy, but I think I recall one of the early WiT
lunches hosted at NANOG that was women-only, where some men were upset
for being "left out". Whether that was good or bad is less important
than understanding what the outcome of a women-only activity is for
women, especially for those for whom it may not be immediately obvious.

While equal access to opportunity between the genders is the most
effective policy, I think there is utility in women having their own
session, given that they face unique challenges in an industry where
they are the minority operators.

Mark.

We still have a lunch, it is welcome to all as it always has been. It has been widened to talk about many aspects of DEI. The NANOG PC is charged with putting a talk up on the stage just before then we continue the conversation during lunch.

The mixer is an additional thing we are doing that is very intentional to drive connection, inclusion, and networking for those that identify as female. Given we are only 10-12% of the population at NANOG, I have received direct feedback from newcomers that this was very helpful for them to have a successful first meeting.

The hope is by doing it Sunday afternoon at 5pm people will be arriving for the meeting Monday morning. As most travel on Sunday anyway.


Tina Morris

On Mar 29, 2024, at 01:05, Eric Parsonage <eric@eparsonage.com> wrote:

?

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It's easily fixed by having a mixer at the same time for the other half of the gathering population thus showing all the population gathering matters equally.



On 29 March 2024 2:50:19?pm ACDT, Ren Provo <ren.provo@gmail.com> wrote:
I beg to differ here and second Ilissa’s comments. I miss WiT. Lunch during the meeting worked. Giving up more of the weekend to travel does not show half the population gathering matters.


On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 15:16 Morris, Tina via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote:
Illissa,
The mixer is at 5pm Sunday, this allows people to network and prepare for the week. Sunday also has a hackathon, registration, and often a welcome social. NANOG has a very compressed schedule and another time would actually mean that the women participating would have to pick between this event and another event or talk that may be critical to their job function, which is also unfair.

We are advertising this mixer to make sure all are aware and can attend, and the mixers will be on the schedule at the same approximate time at each meeting going forward.

I hope we will see you there.

Tina Morris


On Mar 28, 2024, at 14:12, Thomas Scott <mr.thomas.scott@gmail.com<mailto:mr.thomas.scott@gmail.com>> wrote:

?

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know the content is safe.


> While the times are changing, women continue to remain primary caregivers for families and this will require them to desert their families a day early. I find it offensive personally and feel like you may have missed the mark.

The hackathon has for (as far as I’ve known about it) been on Sunday. I don’t work on Sundays - it’s a day for my family (unless the almighty pager goes off), so I’ve never gone - even though it’s one of the parts of NANOG I’d enjoy, and would benefit from the most.

There are tradeoffs for everything - perhaps the idea was to keep the women’s mixer separate from the other evening events, so that those who wish to participate, can do all of the evening events, and not have to give up anything, at the cost of the extra day. That being said, I agree, moving more to Sunday is not an acceptable answer to me.

Best Regards,
-Thomas Scott

On Mar 28, 2024 at 1:45:07?PM, Ilissa Miller <ilissa@imillerpr.com<mailto:ilissa@imillerpr.com>> wrote:
For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input about NANOG matters due to my past affiliation, however, I just saw that NANOG announced the Women mixer on Sunday before NANOG 91 and am outraged for all of the young professional women
ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
This Message Is From an Untrusted Sender
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ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input about NANOG matters due to my past affiliation, however, I just saw that NANOG announced the Women mixer on Sunday before NANOG 91 and am outraged for all of the young professional women who would like to participate in NANOG. While the times are changing, women continue to remain primary caregivers for families and this will require them to desert their families a day early. I find it offensive personally and feel like you may have missed the mark.

The amount of times I hear people complain about having to leave their families is one of the reasons this industry has a problem keeping young people - especially women.

Does anyone else feel the same?



--
Ilissa Miller
CEO, iMiller Public Relations<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.imillerpr.com__;!!I6uDfDBXfA!181DBJ-FtVXbxl2Cf3GD05kg0qsfnD4gdtQI9hJ64xq3Q6B0MHGT1XNwKAr9Vv-qdyTXEvwN7JrbIVyu$>

>
> My memory is a little fuzzy, but I think I recall one of the early WiT
> lunches hosted at NANOG that was women-only, where some men were upset
> for being "left out". Whether that was good or bad is less important
> than understanding what the outcome of a women-only activity is for
> women, especially for those for whom it may not be immediately obvious.
>

My recollection is that every WiT lunch was always open to all. Happy to be
corrected if any were that I don't recall.

There were definitely a few meetings during my PC years that someone
complained that men were not allowed to attend. If my memory serves me
correctly, we at one point were asking session moderators to remind people
of this in general session for a while too. For some meetings, a few of us
were standing at the doors telling people who asked that men were allowed
to attend that if they would like.




On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 1:34?AM Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa> wrote:

>
>
> On 3/29/24 07:03, Eric Parsonage wrote:
>
> > It's easily fixed by having a mixer at the same time for the other
> > half of the gathering population thus showing all the population
> > gathering matters equally.
>
> My memory is a little fuzzy, but I think I recall one of the early WiT
> lunches hosted at NANOG that was women-only, where some men were upset
> for being "left out". Whether that was good or bad is less important
> than understanding what the outcome of a women-only activity is for
> women, especially for those for whom it may not be immediately obvious.
>
> While equal access to opportunity between the genders is the most
> effective policy, I think there is utility in women having their own
> session, given that they face unique challenges in an industry where
> they are the minority operators.
>
> Mark.
>

I don't think anything is 'easily fixed' on this topic.

I do however hope that everyone accepts at face value that the board,
staff, and PC are *trying* to do the right things here. Doesn't mean that
it *will* always be the right thing, or even that a majority of people can
agree on what the right thing actually is.

On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 1:05?AM Eric Parsonage <eric@eparsonage.com> wrote:

> It's easily fixed by having a mixer at the same time for the other half of
> the gathering population thus showing all the population gathering matters
> equally.
>
>
>
> On 29 March 2024 2:50:19?pm ACDT, Ren Provo <ren.provo@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I beg to differ here and second Ilissa’s comments. I miss WiT. Lunch
>> during the meeting worked. Giving up more of the weekend to travel does
>> not show half the population gathering matters.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 15:16 Morris, Tina via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Illissa,
>>> The mixer is at 5pm Sunday, this allows people to network and prepare
>>> for the week. Sunday also has a hackathon, registration, and often a
>>> welcome social. NANOG has a very compressed schedule and another time would
>>> actually mean that the women participating would have to pick between this
>>> event and another event or talk that may be critical to their job
>>> function, which is also unfair.
>>>
>>> We are advertising this mixer to make sure all are aware and can attend,
>>> and the mixers will be on the schedule at the same approximate time at
>>> each meeting going forward.
>>>
>>> I hope we will see you there.
>>>
>>> Tina Morris
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 28, 2024, at 14:12, Thomas Scott <mr.thomas.scott@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?
>>>
>>> *CAUTION*: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do
>>> not click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and
>>> know the content is safe.
>>>
>>> > While the times are changing, women continue to remain primary
>>> caregivers for families and this will require them to desert their families
>>> a day early. I find it offensive personally and feel like you may have
>>> missed the mark.
>>>
>>> The hackathon has for (as far as I’ve known about it) been on Sunday. I
>>> don’t work on Sundays - it’s a day for my family (unless the almighty pager
>>> goes off), so I’ve never gone - even though it’s one of the parts of NANOG
>>> I’d enjoy, and would benefit from the most.
>>>
>>> There are tradeoffs for everything - perhaps the idea was to keep the
>>> women’s mixer separate from the other evening events, so that those who
>>> wish to participate, can do all of the evening events, and not have to give
>>> up anything, at the cost of the extra day. That being said, I agree, moving
>>> more to Sunday is not an acceptable answer to me.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> -Thomas Scott
>>>
>>> On Mar 28, 2024 at 1:45:07?PM, Ilissa Miller <ilissa@imillerpr.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input about NANOG
>>>> matters due to my past affiliation, however, I just saw that NANOG
>>>> announced the Women mixer on Sunday before NANOG 91 and am outraged for all
>>>> of the young professional women
>>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>>> This Message Is From an Untrusted Sender
>>>> You have not previously corresponded with this sender.
>>>>
>>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>>>
>>> For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input about NANOG
>>>> matters due to my past affiliation, however, I just saw that NANOG
>>>> announced the Women mixer on Sunday before NANOG 91 and am outraged for all
>>>> of the young professional women who would like to participate in NANOG.
>>>> While the times are changing, women continue to remain primary caregivers
>>>> for families and this will require them to desert their families a day
>>>> early. I find it offensive personally and feel like you may have missed
>>>> the mark.
>>>>
>>>> The amount of times I hear people complain about having to leave their
>>>> families is one of the reasons this industry has a problem keeping young
>>>> people - especially women.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone else feel the same?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> *Ilissa Miller*
>>>> *CEO, iMiller Public Relations
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.imillerpr.com__;!!I6uDfDBXfA!181DBJ-FtVXbxl2Cf3GD05kg0qsfnD4gdtQI9hJ64xq3Q6B0MHGT1XNwKAr9Vv-qdyTXEvwN7JrbIVyu$>*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

On 3/29/24 18:23, Tom Beecher wrote:

>
> My recollection is that every WiT lunch was always open to all. Happy
> to be corrected if any were that I don't recall.
>
> There were definitely a few meetings during my PC years that someone
> complained that men were not allowed to attend. If my memory serves me
> correctly, we at one point were asking session moderators to remind
> people of this in general session for a while too. For some meetings,
> a few of us were standing at the doors telling people who asked that
> men were allowed to attend that if they would like.

I can't remember which year it was, but my recollection was hearing the
complaints from the men that were upset during the evening social.
Admittedly, I did not hear this from what I would term "the majority of
men" at that specific meeting, so it would be disingenuous to state,
with any authority, that this is how the majority of men felt/feel about
the WiT lunch.

Having said all that, for the avoidance of doubt (and as Tina has
already indicated for NANOG 91), it might be worth mentioning, before
and throughout the conference, that while it is a WiT lunch, all
attendees are welcome to join if that is, indeed, the intended format.

Mark.

On 3/29/24 18:31, Tom Beecher wrote:

> I don't think anything is 'easily fixed' on this topic.
>
> I do however hope that everyone accepts at face value that the board,
> staff, and PC are *trying* to do the right things here. Doesn't mean
> that it *will* always be the right thing, or even that a majority of
> people can agree on what the right thing actually is.

As I always say on matters such as these, "More talking is better than
less talking".

And as uncomfortable as such discussions are to have, we get closer to a
reasonable solution when we talk, and less so when we don't.

Mark.

we definitely need more men's opinions on what women should want and do

randy

On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 11:17?PM Eric Parsonage <eric@eparsonage.com> wrote:

> It's easily fixed by having a mixer at the same time for the other half of
> the gathering population thus showing all the population gathering matters
> equally.
>


I believe the mixer for the other half of the gathering population has been
going on for decades, and is generally referred to as "drinks at the hotel
lobby bar".
Just because it isn't called out by name doesn't mean that the male half of
the population hasn't been meeting and mixing and mingling already for
years. ;-P

I'm with Randy Bush on this. The stakeholders in that event should have
the say in what happens with it; not the rest of us.
Those of us old white males need to check our privilege, and recognize that
we've *been* having "mixers" for decades.
We don't need to put a stake in the ground and push for our equality; we've
already been on the beneficiary side of the
inequality for decades.

Matt

Matt,
For a variety of cultural, religious and philosophical beliefs not everyone can, or wants to enter a bar. So perhaps the experience isn't as universal as you perceive it to be?
Eric


On 30 March 2024 6:18:30?am ACDT, Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
>On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 11:17?PM Eric Parsonage <eric@eparsonage.com> wrote:
>
>> It's easily fixed by having a mixer at the same time for the other half of
>> the gathering population thus showing all the population gathering matters
>> equally.
>>
>
>
>I believe the mixer for the other half of the gathering population has been
>going on for decades, and is generally referred to as "drinks at the hotel
>lobby bar".
>Just because it isn't called out by name doesn't mean that the male half of
>the population hasn't been meeting and mixing and mingling already for
>years. ;-P
>
>I'm with Randy Bush on this. The stakeholders in that event should have
>the say in what happens with it; not the rest of us.
>Those of us old white males need to check our privilege, and recognize that
>we've *been* having "mixers" for decades.
>We don't need to put a stake in the ground and push for our equality; we've
>already been on the beneficiary side of the
>inequality for decades.
>
>Matt

Hi, Anne-

I'm sure that your time was better spent gathering the "credentials"
in your signature, but I checked the last 20 or so NANOG meetings and
didn't see a single registration from you, so perhaps stay out of
things you know literally nothing about.

If it weren't for Ilissa, NANOG would not exist in the form that it
does today, and she's done more work on and off the clock driving the
success of the organization and their meetings than she takes credit
for. NANOG, and especially the women that attend NANOG, owe her a
tremendous debt of gratitude. Her opinion, and Tina's response, are
literally the only ones that carry any weight in this thread, period.

--
Drive Slow,

Paul Wall
Rapper, Retired, and Actor
Swishahouse Alum
Author: Get Money, Stay True
Nominated: Best Rap Performance as a Duo or Group
Winner: Best Rap Collaboration
Winner: Best Rap/R&B Collaboration
Winner: Taste Maker (Style and Trendsetter)
Contributor: Midnight Club 3: DUB Edition for Xbox and PlayStation 2 –
"Sittin' Sidewayz"
Author: The Peoples Champ
Emeritus: Houston University (no degree)


On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 3:24?PM Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
<amitchell@isipp.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I'm not sure people realize how much crap that staff and the PC get *every meeting* about the agenda. There's always someone unhappy because this event wasn't the same, or why was it in this room over here, or OMG Wed afternoon, etc. Having seen how that sausage gets made, they don't get enough credit.
>
> Having been the chair of the Asilomar Microcomputer workshop, and the founder and chair of the original Email Deliverability Summits, as well as organizing many legal conferences, I have to say "^^^ this, 1000%."
>
> Furthermore:
>
> > On Mar 28, 2024, at 11:45 AM, Ilissa Miller <ilissa@imillerpr.com> wrote:
> >
> > For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input about NANOG matters
>
> ..and you haven't here, either. Pointing fingers and griping about things is not constructive. If you really care about this issue, then get involved and help change it.
>
> Anne
>
> ---
> Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
> Internet Law & Policy Attorney
> CEO Institute for Social Internet Public Policy (ISIPP)
> Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal email marketing law)
> Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
> Dean Emeritus, Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School
> Prof. Emeritus, Lincoln Law School
> Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
> Counsel Emeritus, eMail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)
>
>
>
>
>

On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 3:24?PM Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
<amitchell@isipp.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I'm not sure people realize how much crap that staff and the PC get *every meeting* about the agenda. There's always someone unhappy because this event wasn't the same, or why was it in this room over here, or OMG Wed afternoon, etc. Having seen how that sausage gets made, they don't get enough credit.
>
> Having been the chair of the Asilomar Microcomputer workshop, and the founder and chair of the original Email Deliverability Summits, as well as organizing many legal conferences, I have to say "^^^ this, 1000%."
>
> Furthermore:
>
> > On Mar 28, 2024, at 11:45 AM, Ilissa Miller <ilissa@imillerpr.com> wrote:
> >
> > For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input about NANOG matters
>
> ..and you haven't here, either. Pointing fingers and griping about things is not constructive. If you really care about this issue, then get involved and help change it.
>
> Anne
>
> ---
> Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
> Internet Law & Policy Attorney
> CEO Institute for Social Internet Public Policy (ISIPP)
> Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal email marketing law)
> Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
> Dean Emeritus, Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School
> Prof. Emeritus, Lincoln Law School
> Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
> Counsel Emeritus, eMail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)
>
>
>
>
>

Paul,

Anne's opinion is just as valid as the others here. I have also browsed through the recent attendee lists and do not see you listed either, pot calling the kettle black. Your comments about her email signature and which voices are valid here, are not productive. We are allowed to back up and/or side with whomever we please, even if it includes the NANOG board, staff, and committee members. We are also allowed to call people out on their behavior towards others.

Anyway, no one truly knows how many people could have raised the scheduling issue with various committee members, the board, staff, or provided feedback via the contact form on the website, and who knows it could have come from young women. Those voices do not have to come from the mailing list, to be just as valid as ours.

Ryan Hamel

________________________________
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org@nanog.org> on behalf of Paul WALL <pauldotwall@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2024 5:22 PM
To: Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. <amitchell@isipp.com>
Cc: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: N91 Women mixer on Sunday?

Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments.


Hi, Anne-

I'm sure that your time was better spent gathering the "credentials"
in your signature, but I checked the last 20 or so NANOG meetings and
didn't see a single registration from you, so perhaps stay out of
things you know literally nothing about.

If it weren't for Ilissa, NANOG would not exist in the form that it
does today, and she's done more work on and off the clock driving the
success of the organization and their meetings than she takes credit
for. NANOG, and especially the women that attend NANOG, owe her a
tremendous debt of gratitude. Her opinion, and Tina's response, are
literally the only ones that carry any weight in this thread, period.

--
Drive Slow,

Paul Wall
Rapper, Retired, and Actor
Swishahouse Alum
Author: Get Money, Stay True
Nominated: Best Rap Performance as a Duo or Group
Winner: Best Rap Collaboration
Winner: Best Rap/R&B Collaboration
Winner: Taste Maker (Style and Trendsetter)
Contributor: Midnight Club 3: DUB Edition for Xbox and PlayStation 2 –
"Sittin' Sidewayz"
Author: The Peoples Champ
Emeritus: Houston University (no degree)


On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 3:24?PM Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
<amitchell@isipp.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I'm not sure people realize how much crap that staff and the PC get *every meeting* about the agenda. There's always someone unhappy because this event wasn't the same, or why was it in this room over here, or OMG Wed afternoon, etc. Having seen how that sausage gets made, they don't get enough credit.
>
> Having been the chair of the Asilomar Microcomputer workshop, and the founder and chair of the original Email Deliverability Summits, as well as organizing many legal conferences, I have to say "^^^ this, 1000%."
>
> Furthermore:
>
> > On Mar 28, 2024, at 11:45 AM, Ilissa Miller <ilissa@imillerpr.com> wrote:
> >
> > For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input about NANOG matters
>
> ..and you haven't here, either. Pointing fingers and griping about things is not constructive. If you really care about this issue, then get involved and help change it.
>
> Anne
>
> ---
> Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
> Internet Law & Policy Attorney
> CEO Institute for Social Internet Public Policy (ISIPP)
> Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal email marketing law)
> Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
> Dean Emeritus, Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School
> Prof. Emeritus, Lincoln Law School
> Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
> Counsel Emeritus, eMail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)
>
>
>
>
>

On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 3:24?PM Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
<amitchell@isipp.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I'm not sure people realize how much crap that staff and the PC get *every meeting* about the agenda. There's always someone unhappy because this event wasn't the same, or why was it in this room over here, or OMG Wed afternoon, etc. Having seen how that sausage gets made, they don't get enough credit.
>
> Having been the chair of the Asilomar Microcomputer workshop, and the founder and chair of the original Email Deliverability Summits, as well as organizing many legal conferences, I have to say "^^^ this, 1000%."
>
> Furthermore:
>
> > On Mar 28, 2024, at 11:45 AM, Ilissa Miller <ilissa@imillerpr.com> wrote:
> >
> > For those that know me, I rarely provide constructive input about NANOG matters
>
> ..and you haven't here, either. Pointing fingers and griping about things is not constructive. If you really care about this issue, then get involved and help change it.
>
> Anne
>
> ---
> Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
> Internet Law & Policy Attorney
> CEO Institute for Social Internet Public Policy (ISIPP)
> Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal email marketing law)
> Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
> Dean Emeritus, Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School
> Prof. Emeritus, Lincoln Law School
> Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
> Counsel Emeritus, eMail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)
>
>
>
>
>

> I'm sure that your time was better spent gathering the "credentials"
> in your signature, but I checked the last 20 or so NANOG meetings and
> didn't see a single registration from you, so perhaps stay out of
> things you know literally nothing about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

anne has been a constructive list participant for years

randy

On 3/30/24 03:45, Ryan Hamel wrote:

> Paul,
>
> Anne's opinion is just as valid as the others here. I have also
> browsed through the recent attendee lists and do not see you listed
> either, pot calling the kettle black. Your comments about her email
> signature and which voices are valid here, are not productive. We are
> allowed to back up and/or side with whomever we please, even if it
> includes the NANOG board, staff, and committee members. We are also
> allowed to call people out on their behavior towards others.

Agreed. Constructive dialogue makes no requirement for prior or final
agreement.

More talking is better than less talking, especially when we disagree.


>
> Anyway, no one truly knows how many people could have raised the
> scheduling issue with various committee members, the board, staff, or
> provided feedback via the contact form on the website, and who knows
> it could have come from young women. Those voices do not have to come
> from the mailing list, to be just as valid as ours.

I'd imagine that data would, at the very least, be with the PC and other
members of NANOG staff; and in a manner that they can use to derive
reasonable solutions for the future.

Mark.

On 3/29/24 21:48, Matthew Petach wrote:

> I'm with Randy Bush on this.  The stakeholders in that event should
> have the say in what happens with it; not the rest of us.

While I agree that women would know best how they want to socialize for
their own interests, I don't think that men engaging in this discussion
means they are necessarily prescribing how women should do that. All I
have seen so far are opinions and suggestions to a concern the OP
raised, not dictation on what will eventually happen.


> Those of us old white males need to check our privilege, and recognize
> that we've *been* having "mixers" for decades.
> We don't need to put a stake in the ground and push for our equality;
> we've already been on the beneficiary side of the
> inequality for decades.

I also do not think that male guilt is necessary for women to achieve
good outcomes in our shared industry. A complimentary working
relationship could be remarkably more productive, than not.

Mark.

Well said Matt, well said.

On Mar 29, 2024, at 3:49?PM, Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:

?

On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 11:17?PM Eric Parsonage <eric@eparsonage.com> wrote:

It's easily fixed by having a mixer at the same time for the other half of the gathering population thus showing all the population gathering matters equally.

I believe the mixer for the other half of the gathering population has been going on for decades, and is generally referred to as "drinks at the hotel lobby bar".Just because it isn't called out by name doesn't mean that the male half of the population hasn't been meeting and mixing and mingling already for years. ;-P
I'm with Randy Bush on this. The stakeholders in that event should have the say in what happens with it; not the rest of us.Those of us old white males need to check our privilege, and recognize that we've *been* having "mixers" for decades.We don't need to put a stake in the ground and push for our equality; we've already been on the beneficiary side of the inequality for decades.
Matt