Mailing List Archive

Hi Ross,

I've found these Mikrotik devices to be excellent and reliable:

CRS310-8G+2S+IN: 8 x 2.5G copper ethernet ports, 2 x SFP+ cages, rack-mountable. Uses a single DC barrel-jack. https://mikrotik.com/product/crs310_8g_2s_in
CRS305-1G-4S+IN: 4 x SFP+ cages, dual DC barrel-jack ports for redundant power, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management. https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in
CRS310-1G-5S-4S+OUT: 4 x SFP+ cages, 5 x SFP cages, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management, can be mounted outdoors. https://mikrotik.com/product/netfiber_9

MSRP on all three are at or below $249.00 so are priced quite reasonably. If you only need SFP+ cages I'd opt for the CRS305-1G-4S+IN.

Regards,
Christopher Hawker


________________________________
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+chris=thesysadmin.au@nanog.org> on behalf of Ross Tajvar <ross@tajvar.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2023 3:41 PM
To: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: CPE/NID options

I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently, we're terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands in a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.

At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I like the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's passively cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally, etc. Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for us.

I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be ideal.

*I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else to call it.

We are using EX2300-C’s, they do the trick very well. Fanless, flexible mounting options, dual 10G feeds, and a nice price point.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2023, at 22:44, Ross Tajvar <ross@tajvar.io> wrote:
>
> ?
> I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently, we're terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands in a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.
>
> At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I like the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's passively cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally, etc. Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for us.
>
> I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be ideal.
>
> *I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else to call it.

Hi Ross,

On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 at 23:41:41 -0500, Ross Tajvar wrote:
> I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a
> recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not
> necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be
> ideal.

If you're looking for MEF-compliant NIDs, both Ciena CES[1] and RAD
ETX[2] are solid options in my experience.

Cheers,
Benjamin

---
[1] https://www.ciena.com/products#routing-and-switching
[2] https://www.rad.com/products/Ethernet-Access-Devices-Routers/
--
Benjamin Collet

I believe RAD makes a device similar to the Accedian. There's also the Metro Nid line from Accedian, but while they do a lot, they're pretty spendy.

Shawn


-----Original Message-----
From: "Tim Burke" <tim@mid.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2023 12:38am
To: "Ross Tajvar" <ross@tajvar.io>
Cc: "North American Network Operators' Group" <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: CPE/NID options



We are using EX2300-C’s, they do the trick very well. Fanless, flexible mounting options, dual 10G feeds, and a nice price point.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2023, at 22:44, Ross Tajvar <ross@tajvar.io> wrote:
>
>
> I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently, we're terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands in a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.
>
> At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I like the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's passively cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally, etc. Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for us.
>
> I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be ideal.
>
> *I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else to call it.

The Nokia 7210 sas range has suitable devices for layer2 (sas-k5) and MPLS
(sas-k12, sas-d) edge at non totally crazy prices. They are true telco grade
edge devices - https://onestore.nokia.com/asset/184551



_____

From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+chris=thesysadmin.au@nanog.org
<mailto:nanog-bounces+chris=thesysadmin.au@nanog.org> > on behalf of Ross
Tajvar <ross@tajvar.io <mailto:ross@tajvar.io> >
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2023 3:41 PM
To: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org
<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> >
Subject: CPE/NID options



I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently, we're
terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and
extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands in
a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.



At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I like
the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's passively
cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally, etc.
Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the
controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for
us.



I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a
recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not
necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be
ideal.



*I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else to
call it.

I don't know about specific SKUs, but IP Infusion make a very popular set
of L2 switches.


On Wed, Nov 22, 2023 at 8:42?PM Ross Tajvar <ross@tajvar.io> wrote:

> I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently,
> we're terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and
> extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands
> in a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.
>
> At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I
> like the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's
> passively cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally,
> etc. Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the
> controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for
> us.
>
> I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a
> recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not
> necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be
> ideal.
>
> *I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else
> to call it.
>

I don't think IP Infustion makes hardware - their OCNOS software runs on
many third-party white-box platforms from the likes of EdgeCore and
UfiSpace.

There may well be a device that suits the OP's requirements amongst the
supported hardware list.

I refer you to this handy table:

https://www.ipinfusion.com/documentation/ocnos-hardware-compatibility-list/

Aled

On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 at 16:33, Tom Mitchell <tmitchell@netelastic.com> wrote:

> I don't know about specific SKUs, but IP Infusion make a very popular set
> of L2 switches.
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 22, 2023 at 8:42?PM Ross Tajvar <ross@tajvar.io> wrote:
>
>> I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently,
>> we're terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and
>> extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands
>> in a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.
>>
>> At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I
>> like the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's
>> passively cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally,
>> etc. Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the
>> controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for
>> us.
>>
>> I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a
>> recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not
>> necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be
>> ideal.
>>
>> *I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else
>> to call it.
>>
>

For ISPs buying this sort of white box/OEM platform in large quantities, I
would recommend sending one person to attend the yearly Computex Taipei
trade show to look at the new stuff and meet the manufacturer reps in
person.

Edgecore is just a marketing name/sub-brand for the company Accton.

https://www.computextaipei.com.tw/en/index.html



On Sat, Nov 25, 2023 at 2:32?PM Aled Morris via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
wrote:

> I don't think IP Infustion makes hardware - their OCNOS software runs on
> many third-party white-box platforms from the likes of EdgeCore and
> UfiSpace.
>
> There may well be a device that suits the OP's requirements amongst the
> supported hardware list.
>
> I refer you to this handy table:
>
> https://www.ipinfusion.com/documentation/ocnos-hardware-compatibility-list/
>
> Aled
>
> On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 at 16:33, Tom Mitchell <tmitchell@netelastic.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I don't know about specific SKUs, but IP Infusion make a very popular set
>> of L2 switches.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 22, 2023 at 8:42?PM Ross Tajvar <ross@tajvar.io> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently,
>>> we're terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and
>>> extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands
>>> in a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.
>>>
>>> At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I
>>> like the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's
>>> passively cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally,
>>> etc. Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the
>>> controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for
>>> us.
>>>
>>> I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a
>>> recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not
>>> necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be
>>> ideal.
>>>
>>> *I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what
>>> else to call it.
>>>
>>

When you say fiber, is it Ethernet? If you just want layer 2 and a media
converter, Mikrotik is a super good answer.

On Thu, Nov 23, 2023 at 12:19?AM Christopher Hawker <chris@thesysadmin.au>
wrote:

> Hi Ross,
>
> I've found these Mikrotik devices to be excellent and reliable:
>
> CRS310-8G+2S+IN: 8 x 2.5G copper ethernet ports, 2 x SFP+ cages,
> rack-mountable. Uses a single DC barrel-jack.
> https://mikrotik.com/product/crs310_8g_2s_in
> CRS305-1G-4S+IN: 4 x SFP+ cages, dual DC barrel-jack ports for redundant
> power, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management.
> https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in
> CRS310-1G-5S-4S+OUT: 4 x SFP+ cages, 5 x SFP cages, 1 x 1G copper ethernet
> port for OOB management, can be mounted outdoors.
> https://mikrotik.com/product/netfiber_9
>
> MSRP on all three are at or below $249.00 so are priced quite reasonably.
> If you only need SFP+ cages I'd opt for the CRS305-1G-4S+IN.
>
> Regards,
> Christopher Hawker
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+chris=thesysadmin.au@nanog.org> on behalf of
> Ross Tajvar <ross@tajvar.io>
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 23, 2023 3:41 PM
> *To:* North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org>
> *Subject:* CPE/NID options
>
> I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently,
> we're terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and
> extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands
> in a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.
>
> At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I
> like the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's
> passively cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally,
> etc. Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the
> controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for
> us.
>
> I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a
> recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not
> necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be
> ideal.
>
> *I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else
> to call it.
>

The problem with using switches as a CPE device is the lack of RFC2544 (or equivalent) testing, and monitoring of the complete circuit with TWAMP. Both of which are used to ensure compliance with an SLA.

Ryan Hamel

________________________________
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org@nanog.org> on behalf of Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2023 6:14 AM
To: Christopher Hawker <chris@thesysadmin.au>
Cc: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: CPE/NID options

Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments.

When you say fiber, is it Ethernet? If you just want layer 2 and a media converter, Mikrotik is a super good answer.

On Thu, Nov 23, 2023 at 12:19?AM Christopher Hawker <chris@thesysadmin.au<mailto:chris@thesysadmin.au>> wrote:
Hi Ross,

I've found these Mikrotik devices to be excellent and reliable:

CRS310-8G+2S+IN: 8 x 2.5G copper ethernet ports, 2 x SFP+ cages, rack-mountable. Uses a single DC barrel-jack. https://mikrotik.com/product/crs310_8g_2s_in
CRS305-1G-4S+IN: 4 x SFP+ cages, dual DC barrel-jack ports for redundant power, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management. https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in
CRS310-1G-5S-4S+OUT: 4 x SFP+ cages, 5 x SFP cages, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management, can be mounted outdoors. https://mikrotik.com/product/netfiber_9

MSRP on all three are at or below $249.00 so are priced quite reasonably. If you only need SFP+ cages I'd opt for the CRS305-1G-4S+IN.

Regards,
Christopher Hawker


________________________________
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+chris=thesysadmin.au@nanog.org<mailto:thesysadmin.au@nanog.org>> on behalf of Ross Tajvar <ross@tajvar.io<mailto:ross@tajvar.io>>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2023 3:41 PM
To: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: CPE/NID options

I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently, we're terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands in a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.

At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I like the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's passively cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally, etc. Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for us.

I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be ideal.

*I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else to call it.

Around here, Spectrum uses an Adva for demarc and it can not do rfc2544
testing. They will unplug the Adva and plug in the techs' mobile unit
(Viavi I think). VZW/Tmo/Sprint/etc don't seem to mind.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 9:34?AM Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org> wrote:

> The problem with using switches as a CPE device is the lack of RFC2544 (or
> equivalent) testing, and monitoring of the complete circuit with TWAMP.
> Both of which are used to ensure compliance with an SLA.
>
> Ryan Hamel
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org@nanog.org> on behalf of
> Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2023 6:14 AM
> *To:* Christopher Hawker <chris@thesysadmin.au>
> *Cc:* North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org>
> *Subject:* Re: CPE/NID options
>
> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care
> when clicking links or opening attachments.
>
> When you say fiber, is it Ethernet? If you just want layer 2 and a media
> converter, Mikrotik is a super good answer.
>
> On Thu, Nov 23, 2023 at 12:19?AM Christopher Hawker <chris@thesysadmin.au>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Ross,
>
> I've found these Mikrotik devices to be excellent and reliable:
>
> CRS310-8G+2S+IN: 8 x 2.5G copper ethernet ports, 2 x SFP+ cages,
> rack-mountable. Uses a single DC barrel-jack.
> https://mikrotik.com/product/crs310_8g_2s_in
> CRS305-1G-4S+IN: 4 x SFP+ cages, dual DC barrel-jack ports for redundant
> power, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management.
> https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in
> CRS310-1G-5S-4S+OUT: 4 x SFP+ cages, 5 x SFP cages, 1 x 1G copper ethernet
> port for OOB management, can be mounted outdoors.
> https://mikrotik.com/product/netfiber_9
>
> MSRP on all three are at or below $249.00 so are priced quite reasonably.
> If you only need SFP+ cages I'd opt for the CRS305-1G-4S+IN.
>
> Regards,
> Christopher Hawker
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+chris=thesysadmin.au@nanog.org> on behalf of
> Ross Tajvar <ross@tajvar.io>
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 23, 2023 3:41 PM
> *To:* North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org>
> *Subject:* CPE/NID options
>
> I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently,
> we're terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and
> extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands
> in a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.
>
> At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I
> like the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's
> passively cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally,
> etc. Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the
> controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for
> us.
>
> I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a
> recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not
> necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be
> ideal.
>
> *I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else
> to call it.
>
>

For those carriers that do not mind, they have already accepted the cost that comes to a truck roll and may pass the cost onto the customer depending on the result. Where as there are a number of carriers like Cogent, Colt, Comcast, Cox, Crown Castle, Lumen, Zayo, are capable of testing the circuit without a truck roll.

Ryan Hamel

________________________________
From: Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2023 6:41 AM
To: Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org>
Cc: Christopher Hawker <chris@thesysadmin.au>; North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: CPE/NID options

Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments.

Around here, Spectrum uses an Adva for demarc and it can not do rfc2544 testing. They will unplug the Adva and plug in the techs' mobile unit (Viavi I think). VZW/Tmo/Sprint/etc don't seem to mind.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 9:34?AM Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org<mailto:ryan@rkhtech.org>> wrote:
The problem with using switches as a CPE device is the lack of RFC2544 (or equivalent) testing, and monitoring of the complete circuit with TWAMP. Both of which are used to ensure compliance with an SLA.

Ryan Hamel

________________________________
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org@nanog.org<mailto:rkhtech.org@nanog.org>> on behalf of Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com<mailto:josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2023 6:14 AM
To: Christopher Hawker <chris@thesysadmin.au<mailto:chris@thesysadmin.au>>
Cc: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: Re: CPE/NID options

Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments.

When you say fiber, is it Ethernet? If you just want layer 2 and a media converter, Mikrotik is a super good answer.

On Thu, Nov 23, 2023 at 12:19?AM Christopher Hawker <chris@thesysadmin.au<mailto:chris@thesysadmin.au>> wrote:
Hi Ross,

I've found these Mikrotik devices to be excellent and reliable:

CRS310-8G+2S+IN: 8 x 2.5G copper ethernet ports, 2 x SFP+ cages, rack-mountable. Uses a single DC barrel-jack. https://mikrotik.com/product/crs310_8g_2s_in
CRS305-1G-4S+IN: 4 x SFP+ cages, dual DC barrel-jack ports for redundant power, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management. https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in
CRS310-1G-5S-4S+OUT: 4 x SFP+ cages, 5 x SFP cages, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management, can be mounted outdoors. https://mikrotik.com/product/netfiber_9

MSRP on all three are at or below $249.00 so are priced quite reasonably. If you only need SFP+ cages I'd opt for the CRS305-1G-4S+IN.

Regards,
Christopher Hawker


________________________________
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+chris=thesysadmin.au@nanog.org<mailto:thesysadmin.au@nanog.org>> on behalf of Ross Tajvar <ross@tajvar.io<mailto:ross@tajvar.io>>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2023 3:41 PM
To: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: CPE/NID options

I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently, we're terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands in a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.

At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I like the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's passively cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally, etc. Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for us.

I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be ideal.

*I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else to call it.

Adva, RAD, and Telco Systems are all good NID options.

You can go with just any switch, but “proper” NIDs have dying gasp. If the NID is going on a customer premise, I consider dying gasp a must. The dying gasp allows your NOC to determine the difference between a network break and fiber cut.


Tom



> On Nov 27, 2023, at 6:41 AM, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
>
> Around here, Spectrum uses an Adva for demarc and it can not do rfc2544 testing. They will unplug the Adva and plug in the techs' mobile unit (Viavi I think). VZW/Tmo/Sprint/etc don't seem to mind.
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 9:34?AM Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org <mailto:ryan@rkhtech.org>> wrote:
>> The problem with using switches as a CPE device is the lack of RFC2544 (or equivalent) testing, and monitoring of the complete circuit with TWAMP. Both of which are used to ensure compliance with an SLA.
>>
>> Ryan Hamel
>>
>> From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org@nanog.org <mailto:rkhtech.org@nanog.org>> on behalf of Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
>> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2023 6:14 AM
>> To: Christopher Hawker <chris@thesysadmin.au <mailto:chris@thesysadmin.au>>
>> Cc: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
>> Subject: Re: CPE/NID options
>>
>> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments.
>>
>> When you say fiber, is it Ethernet? If you just want layer 2 and a media converter, Mikrotik is a super good answer.
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 23, 2023 at 12:19?AM Christopher Hawker <chris@thesysadmin.au <mailto:chris@thesysadmin.au>> wrote:
>> Hi Ross,
>>
>> I've found these Mikrotik devices to be excellent and reliable:
>>
>> CRS310-8G+2S+IN: 8 x 2.5G copper ethernet ports, 2 x SFP+ cages, rack-mountable. Uses a single DC barrel-jack. https://mikrotik.com/product/crs310_8g_2s_in
>> CRS305-1G-4S+IN: 4 x SFP+ cages, dual DC barrel-jack ports for redundant power, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management. https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in
>> CRS310-1G-5S-4S+OUT: 4 x SFP+ cages, 5 x SFP cages, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management, can be mounted outdoors. https://mikrotik.com/product/netfiber_9
>>
>> MSRP on all three are at or below $249.00 so are priced quite reasonably. If you only need SFP+ cages I'd opt for the CRS305-1G-4S+IN.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Christopher Hawker
>>
>>
>> From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+chris=thesysadmin.au@nanog.org <mailto:thesysadmin.au@nanog.org>> on behalf of Ross Tajvar <ross@tajvar.io <mailto:ross@tajvar.io>>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2023 3:41 PM
>> To: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
>> Subject: CPE/NID options
>>
>> I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently, we're terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands in a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.
>>
>> At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I like the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's passively cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally, etc. Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for us.
>>
>> I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be ideal.
>>
>> *I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else to call it.

Can you have an ethernet switch with dying gasp?

Our ONTs (Calix, PON) have it but I don't see how you'd do it with ethernet.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 11:25?AM Tom Samplonius <tom@samplonius.org> wrote:

>
> Adva, RAD, and Telco Systems are all good NID options.
>
> You can go with just any switch, but “proper” NIDs have dying gasp. If
> the NID is going on a customer premise, I consider dying gasp a must. The
> dying gasp allows your NOC to determine the difference between a network
> break and fiber cut.
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> On Nov 27, 2023, at 6:41 AM, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>
> wrote:
>
> Around here, Spectrum uses an Adva for demarc and it can not do rfc2544
> testing. They will unplug the Adva and plug in the techs' mobile unit
> (Viavi I think). VZW/Tmo/Sprint/etc don't seem to mind.
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 9:34?AM Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org> wrote:
>
>> The problem with using switches as a CPE device is the lack of RFC2544
>> (or equivalent) testing, and monitoring of the complete circuit with TWAMP.
>> Both of which are used to ensure compliance with an SLA.
>>
>> Ryan Hamel
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org@nanog.org> on behalf of
>> Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2023 6:14 AM
>> *To:* Christopher Hawker <chris@thesysadmin.au>
>> *Cc:* North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: CPE/NID options
>>
>> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take
>> care when clicking links or opening attachments.
>>
>> When you say fiber, is it Ethernet? If you just want layer 2 and a media
>> converter, Mikrotik is a super good answer.
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 23, 2023 at 12:19?AM Christopher Hawker <chris@thesysadmin.au>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ross,
>>
>> I've found these Mikrotik devices to be excellent and reliable:
>>
>> CRS310-8G+2S+IN: 8 x 2.5G copper ethernet ports, 2 x SFP+ cages,
>> rack-mountable. Uses a single DC barrel-jack.
>> https://mikrotik.com/product/crs310_8g_2s_in
>> CRS305-1G-4S+IN: 4 x SFP+ cages, dual DC barrel-jack ports for redundant
>> power, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management.
>> https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in
>> CRS310-1G-5S-4S+OUT: 4 x SFP+ cages, 5 x SFP cages, 1 x 1G copper
>> ethernet port for OOB management, can be mounted outdoors.
>> https://mikrotik.com/product/netfiber_9
>>
>> MSRP on all three are at or below $249.00 so are priced quite reasonably.
>> If you only need SFP+ cages I'd opt for the CRS305-1G-4S+IN.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Christopher Hawker
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+chris=thesysadmin.au@nanog.org> on behalf
>> of Ross Tajvar <ross@tajvar.io>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 23, 2023 3:41 PM
>> *To:* North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org>
>> *Subject:* CPE/NID options
>>
>> I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently,
>> we're terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and
>> extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands
>> in a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.
>>
>> At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I
>> like the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's
>> passively cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally,
>> etc. Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the
>> controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for
>> us.
>>
>> I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a
>> recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not
>> necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be
>> ideal.
>>
>> *I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else
>> to call it.
>>
>>
>

Of course. Dying gasp is supported on most switches that are typically classified as NIDs.

For example, Cisco:

https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/switches/lan/catalyst1000/software/releases/15_2_7_e/configuration_guides/sys_mgmt/b_1527e_sys_mgmt_c1000_cg/m_sm_configuring_dying_gasp.pdf?
m_sm_configuring_dying_gasp
PDF Document · 1.1 MB



Dying gasp is just a Ethernet OAM frame broadcast on (usually) all ports just before loss of power. If anything, Ethernet had this first, and ONTs just included it into their standards.


Tom



> On Nov 27, 2023, at 11:40 AM, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
>
> Can you have an ethernet switch with dying gasp?
>
> Our ONTs (Calix, PON) have it but I don't see how you'd do it with ethernet.
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 11:25?AM Tom Samplonius <tom@samplonius.org <mailto:tom@samplonius.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Adva, RAD, and Telco Systems are all good NID options.
>>
>> You can go with just any switch, but “proper” NIDs have dying gasp. If the NID is going on a customer premise, I consider dying gasp a must. The dying gasp allows your NOC to determine the difference between a network break and fiber cut.
>>
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 27, 2023, at 6:41 AM, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Around here, Spectrum uses an Adva for demarc and it can not do rfc2544 testing. They will unplug the Adva and plug in the techs' mobile unit (Viavi I think). VZW/Tmo/Sprint/etc don't seem to mind.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 9:34?AM Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org <mailto:ryan@rkhtech.org>> wrote:
>>>> The problem with using switches as a CPE device is the lack of RFC2544 (or equivalent) testing, and monitoring of the complete circuit with TWAMP. Both of which are used to ensure compliance with an SLA.
>>>>
>>>> Ryan Hamel
>>>>
>>>> From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org@nanog.org <mailto:rkhtech.org@nanog.org>> on behalf of Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2023 6:14 AM
>>>> To: Christopher Hawker <chris@thesysadmin.au <mailto:chris@thesysadmin.au>>
>>>> Cc: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
>>>> Subject: Re: CPE/NID options
>>>>
>>>> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments.
>>>>
>>>> When you say fiber, is it Ethernet? If you just want layer 2 and a media converter, Mikrotik is a super good answer.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 23, 2023 at 12:19?AM Christopher Hawker <chris@thesysadmin.au <mailto:chris@thesysadmin.au>> wrote:
>>>> Hi Ross,
>>>>
>>>> I've found these Mikrotik devices to be excellent and reliable:
>>>>
>>>> CRS310-8G+2S+IN: 8 x 2.5G copper ethernet ports, 2 x SFP+ cages, rack-mountable. Uses a single DC barrel-jack. https://mikrotik.com/product/crs310_8g_2s_in
>>>> CRS305-1G-4S+IN: 4 x SFP+ cages, dual DC barrel-jack ports for redundant power, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management. https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in
>>>> CRS310-1G-5S-4S+OUT: 4 x SFP+ cages, 5 x SFP cages, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management, can be mounted outdoors. https://mikrotik.com/product/netfiber_9
>>>>
>>>> MSRP on all three are at or below $249.00 so are priced quite reasonably. If you only need SFP+ cages I'd opt for the CRS305-1G-4S+IN.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Christopher Hawker
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+chris=thesysadmin.au@nanog.org <mailto:thesysadmin.au@nanog.org>> on behalf of Ross Tajvar <ross@tajvar.io <mailto:ross@tajvar.io>>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2023 3:41 PM
>>>> To: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
>>>> Subject: CPE/NID options
>>>>
>>>> I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently, we're terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment and extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it lands in a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.
>>>>
>>>> At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I like the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's passively cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally, etc. Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for us.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would be ideal.
>>>>
>>>> *I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else to call it.
>>

On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 at 21:45, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>
wrote:

Can you have an ethernet switch with dying gasp?
> Our ONTs (Calix, PON) have it but I don't see how you'd do it with
> ethernet.
>

At least via efm-oam you can have a dying gasp.

You could probably add it to autonegotiation, by sending some symbol. There
is already something similar in autonegotiation, like autonegotiation can
inform the far end, when it is locally shutdown. That is, if I have A-B
link, and B does 'shutdown' on the interface, A could emit syslog 'far-end
administratively down'. This is supported by many common PHYs, but for some
reason I've never seen software implementation.
Of course this same thing 'admin down', could be abused by sending it
always when you know you are going down. So an adventurous operator who
controls their environment could add this today with just code.

--
++ytti