Mailing List Archive

On 11/19/23 16:54, Sean Donelan wrote:
> Of course, every local carrier will be different, what are the current
> preferences for pre-wiring a customer demarc (NID, the box that hangs on
> the outside of the house, whatever the service provider calls it now)?
>
> 1. Nothing - telco/cable will do whatever the heck they want and wreck
> the outside of the house anyway

This is pretty much the norm around me. If I can get with a builder
prior to the walls getting closed up, I will hand them a spool I/O fiber
for them to run from whatever they call the inside service point to the
outside demarc for me, and they usually don't screw it up.

> 2. Smurf tube from demarc to central distribution point with an interior
> power outlet near the demarc

This certainly works well.

> 3. ANSI TIA-570 prewire (2 x CAT 6, 2 x RG 6) from demarc to central
> distribution point (low-voltage contractors don't use UV-rated cable for
> the demarc, and the jacket is trash in a few years)

This is almost pointless in the world of FTTH with indoor ONTs being
preferred and even basically required for XGSPON (outdoor ONTs for
XGSPON are uncommon and expensive). It'll make the local cable MSO
happy, though, since they have RF ready to go. It'll make the local
fiber provider scratch their heads and try to decide if it's worth using
an outdoor ONT or just ignoring the pre-wire and starting from scratch.

This is doubly true of there's no outlet near the pre-wire outside the
home. How the heck am I going to power my outdoor ONT to use that CAT6
without one? Reverse-power outdoor ONTs are even rarer and even more
expensive.

> In the past, I found if I made the pre-wire look nice and easy for the
> field technician, they usually made the extra effort to keep their work
> clean and tidy.

Most installations are contractors, and they get paid by the job with an
add-on schedule that nobody's willing to pay for, so they're going to
have a roughly set amount of effort they're willing to put into a job.
If you've done 90% of the work for them, then that effort can be put
into making it tidy. If they have to do everything from scratch, see
your point (1).

Due to the use of indoor ONTs, lack of fiber pre-wire, and combined with
customers wanting hand-holding up to and including managing their "in
home WiFi", the "point of demarcation" has become really nebulous. In
practice, the real demarc for many resi customers is their 802.11 SSID.

Around here, the local carrier seems to have stopped FTTH deployment.
Instead, the carrier is convincing home builders not to spend money on
demarc pre-wire. Wireless Home 5G service is all customers' need.

Of course, the lack of demarc planning makes things more expensive for
any post-construction competitor. And don't get me started about the lack
of information of what's available in the utility easments. The builders
don't know, and the service providers won't say. The FCC broadband maps
are a lot of hand-waving by service providers.

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sean Donelan" <sean@donelan.com>

> Around here, the local carrier seems to have stopped FTTH deployment.
> Instead, the carrier is convincing home builders not to spend money on
> demarc pre-wire. Wireless Home 5G service is all customers' need.
>
> Of course, the lack of demarc planning makes things more expensive for
> any post-construction competitor. And don't get me started about the lack
> of information of what's available in the utility easments. The builders
> don't know, and the service providers won't say. The FCC broadband maps
> are a lot of hand-waving by service providers.

Well, that's not going to end well.

Sadly, the circumstance in which we'll find out will be if SHTF, and after
that failure, it won't matter much.

Cheers,
-- jra

--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274

For *only* $1,000, the builder is willing to pre-install a smurf tube from
the demarc to the central distribution point. But such a deal for 5G....

Since most fiber installs seem to use pre-connectorized cable, without
affecting building structure integrity (i.e. 2-inch is too big according
to builder), how small is too small? Trade size 1/2-inch, 3/4-inch,
1-inch?

Does the FTTH industry have any published standards?


This is why I don't help friends troubleshoot PC printer problems :-)

I can't speak for US standards, however, in Australia on the National Broadband Network the standard for lead-in conduit is P20 conduit (23mm inner diameter with 26.6mm to 26.8mm outer diameter). I imagine in the US it may be something similar.

Page 17 of https://www.nbnco.com.au/content/dam/nbn/documents/developers/newdevs/NBN-DES-STD-0011-Residential-Preparation-and-Installation-Single-Dwelling-Units-and-Multi-Dwelling-Units-13.0.pdf.coredownload.pdf.

Regards,
Christopher Hawker
________________________________
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+chris=thesysadmin.au@nanog.org> on behalf of Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2023 4:35 AM
To: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: Outside plant - prewire customer demarc preference


For *only* $1,000, the builder is willing to pre-install a smurf tube from
the demarc to the central distribution point. But such a deal for 5G....

Since most fiber installs seem to use pre-connectorized cable, without
affecting building structure integrity (i.e. 2-inch is too big according
to builder), how small is too small? Trade size 1/2-inch, 3/4-inch,
1-inch?

Does the FTTH industry have any published standards?


This is why I don't help friends troubleshoot PC printer problems :-)

On 11/22/23 12:35, Sean Donelan wrote:
>
> For *only* $1,000, the builder is willing to pre-install a smurf tube
> from the demarc to the central distribution point.  But such a deal
> for 5G....

Yeah that's ridiculous.  Running such a thing while the walls are still
open is a piece of cake, and the material is maybe $50-100 depending on
distance.

> Since most fiber installs seem to use pre-connectorized cable, without
> affecting building structure integrity (i.e. 2-inch is too big
> according to builder), how small is too small?  Trade size 1/2-inch,
> 3/4-inch, 1-inch?
>
> Does the FTTH industry have any published standards?

At least my experience has been that, where pre-connectorized drop
cables are used, they're only pre-termed on the telco side (often, but
by no means always in a hardened connector).  The customer side is
either unterminated or uses a small ferrule with a snap-on housing
precisely so that it can be fished through small holes in walls/framing
and small or crowded conduits.

In practice, 1/2" trade size smurf tube is big enough if it's not too
long and bendy especially if they're willing to get one with a
pull-string already in it (and the guy before you is nice enough to pull
another).  If it's a long or bendy drop or you want a little extra piece
of mind, 3/4" is readily available not too expensive.  1" starts to get
a bit expensive and is usually unnecessary.

I personally connectorize both sides in the field.  Having the ability
to do it is invaluable for repairs, and it's not that much harder to do
two sides than one especially if you're already fishing wires and such. 
If you're using hardened connectors, the situation is different since
they're not commonly available for field install, though it is a thing
you can get.

I'm not aware of any published standards focusing on FTTx in North
America.  All the standards I know of are datacenter/mid-size business
oriented and are going to call for ridiculous (in FTTx) things like 2"+
rigid conduit on the assumption it'll have at least a 48F loose-tube in
it and probably more than one.

I would imagine some of the national ogre telcos who are still doing
FTTx deployments will have a pre-build guide for at least MDUs that
might be useful, though around here they often just show up when the
first person orders service and treat the building as "existing" even if
it was just built last week.  I'm guessing they have so many existing
buildings to deal with at least right now that this isn't a huge deal
for them and may even be easier than having two classes of MDU installs
(existing and pre-wire). AT&T and Centurylink/Lumen are the most likely
to have them IMO, but checking Frontier/Verizon (do they still have ANY
wireline territory?) may be useful, too, especially since they were the
earliest ones to do it.

--
Brandon Martin

Sorry long, detailed message.

TL;DR - Use 1-inch trade size smurf tube for new North America FTTH
construction.

North American FTTH may not have standards for the in-building access
conduit between the demarc point, Minimum Point of Entry (MPOE) in the old
terminology, and the dwelling's distribution point. But thanks
to Christopher Hawker for pointing me to other country's national
broadband deployment guidance.

In the US, we don't even have a consistent word to describe that line on
the network drawings. That line seems to be an "out of scope" gap between
the the FCC demarc rules and TIA inside wiring standards.

Other countries with strong FTTH deployments have written a lot of
rules about that line. Germany has extremely detailed FTTH building
standards which influenced other European country FTTH standards. Carriers
in several Middle East and other Commonwealth countries with national
FTTH deployments have lots of documents for new builders.

Bear with me, because I'm going to translate nominal metric measurements
and translate country-specific "pre-wire" rules using North American
terms. Conduit, tube, pathway generally mean the same thing to me, but
some people have been annoyed because their country uses different words.

Most FTTH countries specify a nominal 25mm I.D./32mm O.D. (equivalent to
1-inch US trade size) conduit/duct/pathway between the "dwelling" Distribution Point
and the NID/demarc entrance point for new construction. In multi-dwelling
unit buildings (i.e. apartments) the 25mm/32mm duct is between the
apartment and a "consolidation point" for a group of apartments or the
floor. Mansions (palaces) and other building types specify larger
access conduit sizes. Countries vary a little, i.e. UK and Ireland have
the smallest minimum access duct size (20mm I.D./25 mm O.D.) and some
Middle Eastern countries have the largest (40mm ID/50 mm OD). Australia
is just weird with a Telstra legacy conduit size.

Overall 25mm ID/32mm OD (equivalent 1-inch trade size) is the most common.

The biggest difference between country's FTTH rules are rigid vs. flexible
conduit and the material specified, i.e. schedule 40 PVC vs. HDPE vs.
other.

Also very confusing because the metric "Diametre nominel" size for
pipes/conduit isn't the actual size of the conduits in metric
measurements. 25mm is really 26.64mm inside diameter. Likewise the
American National Pipe Standard isn't the actual measurement either.
American 1-inch trade size is 1.029" inside diameter. The convention
metric countries uses for 32mm outside diameter is really 33.40 mm.

Confused yet? Google translate does not help with construction codes.

The good news for North America construction, a 1-inch trade size
HDPE/Schedule 40 PVC or smurf tube/duct/conduit/pathway requires drilling
a 1-3/8 inch hole through framing studs. A 1-3/8 hole is just smaller
than the maximum sized hole size allowed in a standard 2x4 framing stud
(which isn't actually 2-inches by 4-inches) by North American building
codes. So the builder does not need to charge extra to 'double' the
framing studs for 'structural integrity' according to the building code.

Builder's scare quotes are intentional.

Insert NSFW construction joke here :-)

Mine (and my friend who will own the the new house) assumption is the
builder's proposed $1,000 charge is really a "stop listening to your
crazy friend, and let me build your house" charge.

Thanks Brandon Martin,

I agree 1-inch smurf tube is overkill for FTTH. From my quick research
into all things FTTH, which I didn't know anything a week ago :-) ...

The regulators in other countries still believe they will create
competition. The 25mm/32mm access duct (I'm going to make up a new
term, and just call it "access duct", i.e. that smurf tube, conduit,
pathway thing) is big enough for either a fiber microduct, cat 6 copper
or RG6 coax. Even a 12/24/48-volt DC power cable for active
equipment at the NID/demarc. The regulators keep all their competitors
happy by not favoring any particular technology.

In practice, the countries with the biggest FTTH deployments have very
little FTTH competition at the physical access layer.

Microduct, microduct, microduct is what the dominant access provider
wants in those countries. The dominant carrier wants builders to install
"direct fiber" or "bypass fiber" microducts in new construction directly
from every dwelling (house or apartment) to the carrier's central access
point for the builder's development (apartment buildings or neighborhood).

Microduct only means no pre-built access for other competitors.

Apartment construction in Asia is very large. Several countries are
also adding in-building mobile/wireless service requirements for new MDU
building construction.


My interpretation, not understanding the country-specific FTTH fights...

The regulators appear to say, Ok, dominant carrier - you can have
"direct fiber" microduct but builders must also provide an "open
competition" 25mm/32mm access duct from the building entrance point (NID)
or apartment consolidation points (CP) to the individual distribution box
(DD) inside each dwelling.

Just my uninformed take, corrections welcome.

If I was building a house I'd just get some 1" conduit from the outside to
the inside. Put it in a NEMA box. That solves the problem forever.

As a fiber ISP, and assuming you're doing your own WiFi in the house, you
can do conduit inside or we can just run the fiber. We don't want to run
up/down walls and such. 99% of our installs are through the exterior wall
and then a u6x covers the house. We run fiber

If you're in a cableCo area just run coax to get to your modem/router
situation.

I'm not sure what the Cat5 is for outside. Ethernet isn't going to work
and DSL is nearly dead already.

On Fri, Nov 24, 2023 at 2:33?PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:

> Thanks Brandon Martin,
>
> I agree 1-inch smurf tube is overkill for FTTH. From my quick research
> into all things FTTH, which I didn't know anything a week ago :-) ...
>
> The regulators in other countries still believe they will create
> competition. The 25mm/32mm access duct (I'm going to make up a new
> term, and just call it "access duct", i.e. that smurf tube, conduit,
> pathway thing) is big enough for either a fiber microduct, cat 6 copper
> or RG6 coax. Even a 12/24/48-volt DC power cable for active
> equipment at the NID/demarc. The regulators keep all their competitors
> happy by not favoring any particular technology.
>
> In practice, the countries with the biggest FTTH deployments have very
> little FTTH competition at the physical access layer.
>
> Microduct, microduct, microduct is what the dominant access provider
> wants in those countries. The dominant carrier wants builders to install
> "direct fiber" or "bypass fiber" microducts in new construction directly
> from every dwelling (house or apartment) to the carrier's central access
> point for the builder's development (apartment buildings or neighborhood).
>
> Microduct only means no pre-built access for other competitors.
>
> Apartment construction in Asia is very large. Several countries are
> also adding in-building mobile/wireless service requirements for new MDU
> building construction.
>
>
> My interpretation, not understanding the country-specific FTTH fights...
>
> The regulators appear to say, Ok, dominant carrier - you can have
> "direct fiber" microduct but builders must also provide an "open
> competition" 25mm/32mm access duct from the building entrance point (NID)
> or apartment consolidation points (CP) to the individual distribution box
> (DD) inside each dwelling.
>
> Just my uninformed take, corrections welcome.
>

On 11/27/2023 09:12, Josh Luthman wrote:
> If I was building a house I'd just get some 1" conduit from the outside
> to the inside.  Put it in a NEMA box.  That solves the problem forever.

1" is great if you can get it, and I'd try to argue for it. I'd settle
for 3/4"

Builders and resi electricians are going to hate 1". It's not something
they'll stock nor is it readily available at cheeeap prices that they
seek. 3/4" ENT is available fairly cheap, and the electricians are
going to have a hole hog big enough for it which they may not have for
1" if they're truly resi-only. I can see the adder for 1" being
eye-rolling as a result.

> As a fiber ISP, and assuming you're doing your own WiFi in the house,
> you can do conduit inside or we can just run the fiber.  We don't want
> to run up/down walls and such.  99% of our installs are through the
> exterior wall and then a u6x covers the house.  We run fiber

Same. I don't expect to find a house pre-wired with suitable fiber from
the outside utility access area to the inside distribution point. I'll
use it if it's there, but the only time I've ever had that happen is
when I've managed to hand the builder (or, more likely, the electrical
contractor themselves) a spool of fiber during construction. Usually
this is only on custom and semi-custom homes. Tract home electricians
aren't going to do ANYTHING outside their SOW.

Most large fiber ISPs won't use existing fiber even if it's there and
suitable. They don't trust it, and it's not "standard" for them.
Occasionally the install techs may bend the rules.

When I'm running fiber for a customer, anything more than "rise up from
the ground and poke it through the wall" is getting into "premium
installation with upcharge" territory. Nobody wants to pay for it.
Most other fiber ISPs seem similar.

> If you're in a cableCo area just run coax to get to your modem/router
> situation.

Agreed. In theory they could also use suitable fiber for RFoG if
they've got such a deployment in the area. I'm not aware of any
standards for such prewires, and like above I doubt they'd want to use
it even if it were present. All of the MSOs I know of doing RFoG to the
home put a micro-nid outdoors and reverse power it over coax from
inside. Fiber doesn't enter the home itself.

> I'm not sure what the Cat5 is for outside.  Ethernet isn't going to work
> and DSL is nearly dead already.

I suspect the relevant ANSI standard is just old and dates back to
POTS+DSL. CAT6 is great for VDSL and G.FAST, and a standard cable gives
you 4 pairs to work with and is cheap and fairly tolerant of abuse
during install.

I would love to see the relevant standard updated to include e.g. a
duplex or 6-count tight buffered or breakout single-mode fiber cable.

--
Brandon Martin

That’s exactly what I did. I was able to get a 3/4 conduit from my furnace room/network closet to the exterior of my home where utilities enter. It took some doing but I got it in, terminated in a NEMA box.

When we got fiber a few years ago, the installer told me it was the easiest install he’s ever done.

In that conduit I have fiber, coax, one Cat6 and also a sprinkler wire (whomever built my home had sprinklers put in the back yard but not the front, but I took care of that oversight).

----
Andy Ringsmuth
5609 Harding Drive
Lincoln, NE 68521-5831
(402) 202-1230
andy@andyring.com

“A private central bank issuing the public currency is a greater menace to the liberties of the people than a standing army. We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.” -Thomas Jefferson

> On Nov 27, 2023, at 8:12?AM, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
>
> If I was building a house I'd just get some 1" conduit from the outside to the inside. Put it in a NEMA box. That solves the problem forever.
>
> As a fiber ISP, and assuming you're doing your own WiFi in the house, you can do conduit inside or we can just run the fiber. We don't want to run up/down walls and such. 99% of our installs are through the exterior wall and then a u6x covers the house. We run fiber
>
> If you're in a cableCo area just run coax to get to your modem/router situation.
>
> I'm not sure what the Cat5 is for outside. Ethernet isn't going to work and DSL is nearly dead already.
>
> On Fri, Nov 24, 2023 at 2:33?PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
> Thanks Brandon Martin,
>
> I agree 1-inch smurf tube is overkill for FTTH. From my quick research
> into all things FTTH, which I didn't know anything a week ago :-) ...
>
> The regulators in other countries still believe they will create
> competition. The 25mm/32mm access duct (I'm going to make up a new
> term, and just call it "access duct", i.e. that smurf tube, conduit,
> pathway thing) is big enough for either a fiber microduct, cat 6 copper
> or RG6 coax. Even a 12/24/48-volt DC power cable for active
> equipment at the NID/demarc. The regulators keep all their competitors
> happy by not favoring any particular technology.
>
> In practice, the countries with the biggest FTTH deployments have very
> little FTTH competition at the physical access layer.
>
> Microduct, microduct, microduct is what the dominant access provider
> wants in those countries. The dominant carrier wants builders to install
> "direct fiber" or "bypass fiber" microducts in new construction directly
> from every dwelling (house or apartment) to the carrier's central access
> point for the builder's development (apartment buildings or neighborhood).
>
> Microduct only means no pre-built access for other competitors.
>
> Apartment construction in Asia is very large. Several countries are
> also adding in-building mobile/wireless service requirements for new MDU
> building construction.
>
>
> My interpretation, not understanding the country-specific FTTH fights...
>
> The regulators appear to say, Ok, dominant carrier - you can have
> "direct fiber" microduct but builders must also provide an "open
> competition" 25mm/32mm access duct from the building entrance point (NID)
> or apartment consolidation points (CP) to the individual distribution box
> (DD) inside each dwelling.
>
> Just my uninformed take, corrections welcome.

> On Nov 27, 2023, at 11:45, Andy Ringsmuth <andy@andyring.com> wrote:
>
> That’s exactly what I did. I was able to get a 3/4 conduit from my furnace room/network closet to the exterior of my home where utilities enter. It took some doing but I got it in, terminated in a NEMA box.

Why would 1” be significantly harder to get than 3/4”? Both in EMT and PVC, it’s readily available to the best of my knowledge.

Owen

On 11/27/23 18:52, owen--- via NANOG wrote:
> Why would 1” be significantly harder to get than 3/4”? Both in EMT and PVC, it’s readily available to the best of my knowledge.

Most residential electrical contractors are going to use rated ENT since
it's what they can easily get at a normal supply house or even home
center. This is the stuff made popular by Carlon in their trademark
blue that makes people call it "smurf tube". It's readily available in
1/2" and 3/4" everywhere from home centers to basically any supply
house. 1" is less common - most home centers don't have it, and since
it isn't normally needed in residential nor is ENT basically ever used
in commercial, neither do a lot of strictly electrical supply houses.

You can of course get corrugated communication duct in that size, often
with mule tape pre-installed as a bonus, but a lot of electrical supply
houses that deal only in "electrical" and not "communications" don't
have that and will send folks to a "low voltage communication supplier"
or have to special order it. A lot of electrical contractors,
especially residential, would rather not bother with a separate supply
run, and having to wait is a pain if it wasn't planned early on and also
often means you're paying freight separately.

Even then, most of the folks going to a communications supplier are
going to reach straight for 1.25" or larger in commercial since you
don't have to worry about drilling studs. As I recall, my local
communication cable house didn't even have 1" in stock, but they did
have 1.25" in stock, and their price was basically the same as the 1" as
a result.

So it's not that it doesn't exist or anything, it's just that, at least
as far as I've seen, there's not a ton of demand for it, so local stock
is thin.

All that said, I just checked Home Depot, and they are showing some
stock on 1" ENT at my local store, so maybe that's changing. Used to be
they only stocked 3/4" and 1/2". They still only have 25ft hanks of the
1" stuff (you can get 1/2" and 3/4" in 25 or 100-200ft), but at least
they have it now. It is still about 4x the price of 3/4" per unit
length, though.

--
Brandon Martin

Why not just use SCH40 PVC sticks? Everywhere stocks that in copious levels.




-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP

----- Original Message -----

From: "Brandon Martin" <lists.nanog@monmotha.net>
To: nanog@nanog.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2023 9:27:58 AM
Subject: Re: Outside plant - prewire customer demarc preference

On 11/27/23 18:52, owen--- via NANOG wrote:
> Why would 1” be significantly harder to get than 3/4”? Both in EMT and PVC, it’s readily available to the best of my knowledge.

Most residential electrical contractors are going to use rated ENT since
it's what they can easily get at a normal supply house or even home
center. This is the stuff made popular by Carlon in their trademark
blue that makes people call it "smurf tube". It's readily available in
1/2" and 3/4" everywhere from home centers to basically any supply
house. 1" is less common - most home centers don't have it, and since
it isn't normally needed in residential nor is ENT basically ever used
in commercial, neither do a lot of strictly electrical supply houses.

You can of course get corrugated communication duct in that size, often
with mule tape pre-installed as a bonus, but a lot of electrical supply
houses that deal only in "electrical" and not "communications" don't
have that and will send folks to a "low voltage communication supplier"
or have to special order it. A lot of electrical contractors,
especially residential, would rather not bother with a separate supply
run, and having to wait is a pain if it wasn't planned early on and also
often means you're paying freight separately.

Even then, most of the folks going to a communications supplier are
going to reach straight for 1.25" or larger in commercial since you
don't have to worry about drilling studs. As I recall, my local
communication cable house didn't even have 1" in stock, but they did
have 1.25" in stock, and their price was basically the same as the 1" as
a result.

So it's not that it doesn't exist or anything, it's just that, at least
as far as I've seen, there's not a ton of demand for it, so local stock
is thin.

All that said, I just checked Home Depot, and they are showing some
stock on 1" ENT at my local store, so maybe that's changing. Used to be
they only stocked 3/4" and 1/2". They still only have 25ft hanks of the
1" stuff (you can get 1/2" and 3/4" in 25 or 100-200ft), but at least
they have it now. It is still about 4x the price of 3/4" per unit
length, though.

--
Brandon Martin

> On Nov 27, 2023, at 5:52?PM, owen@Delong.com <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>> On Nov 27, 2023, at 11:45, Andy Ringsmuth <andy@andyring.com> wrote:
>>
>> That’s exactly what I did. I was able to get a 3/4 conduit from my furnace room/network closet to the exterior of my home where utilities enter. It took some doing but I got it in, terminated in a NEMA box.
>
> Why would 1” be significantly harder to get than 3/4”? Both in EMT and PVC, it’s readily available to the best of my knowledge.
>
> Owen
>
>


Because in my instance, due to some of the bends involved, 3/4 was the best I could do. The bend radius on a 90 for 1-inch wasn’t going to fit in a couple places along the path.


-Andy

> On Nov 28, 2023, at 07:27, Brandon Martin <lists.nanog@monmotha.net> wrote:
>
> On 11/27/23 18:52, owen--- via NANOG wrote:
>> Why would 1” be significantly harder to get than 3/4”? Both in EMT and PVC, it’s readily available to the best of my knowledge.
>
> Most residential electrical contractors are going to use rated ENT since it's what they can easily get at a normal supply house or even home center. This is the stuff made popular by Carlon in their trademark blue that makes people call it "smurf tube". It's readily available in 1/2" and 3/4" everywhere from home centers to basically any supply house. 1" is less common - most home centers don't have it, and since it isn't normally needed in residential nor is ENT basically ever used in commercial, neither do a lot of strictly electrical supply houses.

I’ve never used ENT (never even seen that name, TBH). 1” EMT is readily available at Home Depot and Lowes out here as well as several reputable supply houses.

> You can of course get corrugated communication duct in that size, often with mule tape pre-installed as a bonus, but a lot of electrical supply houses that deal only in "electrical" and not "communications" don't have that and will send folks to a "low voltage communication supplier" or have to special order it. A lot of electrical contractors, especially residential, would rather not bother with a separate supply run, and having to wait is a pain if it wasn't planned early on and also often means you're paying freight separately.

Agreed, but out here at least, almost all of the electricians don’t bother with ENT and most do both commercial and residential work, so they just keep EMT on the trucks and usually have up to 2” readily available, with 3” and 4” in the not particularly difficult, but too bulky to carry unless needed category. I guess this may vary with locality.

> Even then, most of the folks going to a communications supplier are going to reach straight for 1.25" or larger in commercial since you don't have to worry about drilling studs. As I recall, my local communication cable house didn't even have 1" in stock, but they did have 1.25" in stock, and their price was basically the same as the 1" as a result.

Sure, but smurf tubing is a hole other thing. Amusingly, at least locally, smooth interduct is easier to find than corrugated smurf tubing, though both are readily available.

> So it's not that it doesn't exist or anything, it's just that, at least as far as I've seen, there's not a ton of demand for it, so local stock is thin.

I guess this varies by locality.

> All that said, I just checked Home Depot, and they are showing some stock on 1" ENT at my local store, so maybe that's changing. Used to be they only stocked 3/4" and 1/2". They still only have 25ft hanks of the 1" stuff (you can get 1/2" and 3/4" in 25 or 100-200ft), but at least they have it now. It is still about 4x the price of 3/4" per unit length, though.

Interesting… ENT is apparently plastic and has interesting snap fittings. Until this email, I’ve never even looked into it. Used plenty of the “ENT” boxes, but always just called them PVC (since that’s what the ENT stuff is apparently made of). EMT is way more common out here than ENT, and even where plastic is used, most seem to use straight electrical PVC (grey stuff usually) instead of of the ENT brand stuff.

YMMV of course.

Owne

My relative is buying a new house is a typical American surbuban tract
housing development. Yep, I'm the extended family I.T. consultant.

The marketing brochure calls it "custom home" but he only gets to talk to
the developer's "design consultants", i.e. sales people. The developer
has a sales center and pre-set upsell options, kitchen countertop
choices, carpeting, etc. He never talks to the architect, general
contractor, electricians or construction crew.

He paid for a finished basement option, which means most of the basement
will have sheetrock finished walls. So the first cable, fiber or
telephone utility will be cutting holes in the new sheetrock. I was trying
to avoid needing to cut brand-new sheetrock or fishing wire
through walls.

The design consultant's answer for everything was 5G ... 5G ... 5G. No
more ugly boxes on the house, everything will be wireless. There is a
special deal if he signed up for 5G wireless service before his house was
finished.

For something "no one ever asks about," the design consultant seemed to
have a lot of prepared sales pitches.


Acting like a dumb homebuyer over the Thanksgiving weekend I did notice
the model home had a demarc box on the garage outside wall. The garage
in the model home is used as the builder's office, so it may not be how
the built homes are setup.


A new version of ANSI/TIA-570 (residential wiring standard) is due this
year. In the old days, a minimum of one wired telephone outlet was
required. I was just wondering if there was new 'standard' for demarcs in
new residential construction. But it sounds like there isn't. Draping
cables around the sides of the house.

I am not personally aware of such a standard that is used in every state,
but it is worth checking with the state authority to see what standards are
applicable in the state.

That being said, I would ask if the home is being prewired for alarm
services or not. If so, you could find an avenue to ask about other things.
My sister and her husband just bought a new house outside of Dallas and it
is coming prewired for RG6, wired alarm and CAT-6 ethernet.

On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 4:45?PM Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:

> My relative is buying a new house is a typical American surbuban tract
> housing development. Yep, I'm the extended family I.T. consultant.
>
> The marketing brochure calls it "custom home" but he only gets to talk to
> the developer's "design consultants", i.e. sales people. The developer
> has a sales center and pre-set upsell options, kitchen countertop
> choices, carpeting, etc. He never talks to the architect, general
> contractor, electricians or construction crew.
>
> He paid for a finished basement option, which means most of the basement
> will have sheetrock finished walls. So the first cable, fiber or
> telephone utility will be cutting holes in the new sheetrock. I was trying
> to avoid needing to cut brand-new sheetrock or fishing wire
> through walls.
>
> The design consultant's answer for everything was 5G ... 5G ... 5G. No
> more ugly boxes on the house, everything will be wireless. There is a
> special deal if he signed up for 5G wireless service before his house was
> finished.
>
> For something "no one ever asks about," the design consultant seemed to
> have a lot of prepared sales pitches.
>
>
> Acting like a dumb homebuyer over the Thanksgiving weekend I did notice
> the model home had a demarc box on the garage outside wall. The garage
> in the model home is used as the builder's office, so it may not be how
> the built homes are setup.
>
>
> A new version of ANSI/TIA-570 (residential wiring standard) is due this
> year. In the old days, a minimum of one wired telephone outlet was
> required. I was just wondering if there was new 'standard' for demarcs in
> new residential construction. But it sounds like there isn't. Draping
> cables around the sides of the house.
>
>

On Tue, 28 Nov 2023, Stan Barber wrote:
> That being said, I would ask if the home is being prewired for alarm
> services or not. If so, you could find an avenue to ask about other things.
> My sister and her husband just bought a new house outside of Dallas and it
> is coming prewired for RG6, wired alarm and CAT-6 ethernet.

Thanks for the suggestion. I suspect the builder will try to sell a
wireless alarm system instead, but I will suggest my relative ask
the design consultants.

During my "dumb homebuyer" Thanksgiving tour, I found out the $1,000 smurf
tube option was a 5-foot tube (2-inch) from the TV mounting box above the
fireplace mantel to the side of the fireplace for a media console for a
hdmi cable.

On the other hand, the sales person was very proud that the garage is
"EV-Ready." Which is how I found out the garage was their office, not on
the tour.

On 11/28/23 10:42, Mike Hammett wrote:
> Why not just use SCH40 PVC sticks? Everywhere stocks that in copious levels.

Ever tried to snake one of those through a wall?

They're great for just pushing through a wall penetration to something
directly adjacent on the inside, though. At that point you might as
well for for 2", honestly.

--
Brandon Martin

On 11/28/23 12:43, Owen DeLong wrote:
> I’ve never used ENT (never even seen that name, TBH). 1” EMT is readily available at Home Depot and Lowes out here as well as several reputable supply houses.
...
> Interesting… ENT is apparently plastic and has interesting snap fittings. Until this email, I’ve never even looked into it. Used plenty of the “ENT” boxes, but always just called them PVC (since that’s what the ENT stuff is apparently made of). EMT is way more common out here than ENT, and even where plastic is used, most seem to use straight electrical PVC (grey stuff usually) instead of of the ENT brand stuff.

It really comes down to if the path is straight or complicated.

If it's just poking straight through a wall to something adjacent on the
inside or nearby, rigid pipe works fine, is easy enough to work with,
and is readily available.

However if the external "demarc area" and inside "media aggregation
area" aren't nearby or are separated by a convoluted path once running
inside walls and ceilings is taken into account, flexible conduit is
obviously easier, and ENT is a readily available option most
electricians are going to be familiar with for that. It's literally
where the term "smurf tube" came from AFAIK. It's not itself a
brand-specific thing (indeed multiple manufacturers make it) and is just
yet another type of raceway defined by NEC, but the blue Carlon stuff is
well known.
--
Brandon Martin

> On Nov 30, 2023, at 16:50, Brandon Martin <lists.nanog@monmotha.net> wrote:
>
> On 11/28/23 12:43, Owen DeLong wrote:
>> I’ve never used ENT (never even seen that name, TBH). 1” EMT is readily available at Home Depot and Lowes out here as well as several reputable supply houses.
> ...
>> Interesting… ENT is apparently plastic and has interesting snap fittings. Until this email, I’ve never even looked into it. Used plenty of the “ENT” boxes, but always just called them PVC (since that’s what the ENT stuff is apparently made of). EMT is way more common out here than ENT, and even where plastic is used, most seem to use straight electrical PVC (grey stuff usually) instead of of the ENT brand stuff.
>
> It really comes down to if the path is straight or complicated.
>
> If it's just poking straight through a wall to something adjacent on the inside or nearby, rigid pipe works fine, is easy enough to work with, and is readily available.
>
> However if the external "demarc area" and inside "media aggregation area" aren't nearby or are separated by a convoluted path once running inside walls and ceilings is taken into account, flexible conduit is obviously easier, and ENT is a readily available option most electricians are going to be familiar with for that. It's literally where the term "smurf tube" came from AFAIK. It's not itself a brand-specific thing (indeed multiple manufacturers make it) and is just yet another type of raceway defined by NEC, but the blue Carlon stuff is well known.

Interesting… I’ve always thought of that super-thin flimsy corrugated plastic cut side tubing (similar to this): https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Panduit/CLT50F-C3?qs=gyp5g9lXdE5smA3BAFqGhA%3D%3D&mgh=1&gad_source=1 which (originally) came in a very bright blue and later black, orange, and many other colors.

However, apparently ENT was a predecessor to that, I just hadn’t encountered it until now. I don’t recall even seeing it in the aisles at local HDs. I’ll have to look for it.

For the most part out here, if it’s going behind sheetrock, contractors/electricians just run Romex or whatever in bare stud holes without any form of conduit.

Owen

On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 1:56?AM owen--- via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:

> However, apparently ENT was a predecessor to that, I just hadn’t encountered it until now. I don’t recall even seeing it in the aisles at local HDs. I’ll have to look for it.

Apparently I spend more time roaming the aisles
of the big box home improvement supply stores
than you do (I am not proud of that, I just do(*)).
I have seen it, and all the associated connectors.
and alternatives, for years, although for various
reasons I prefer to use the local electrical supply
stores when possible to source items (yes, they
can be more expensive for some items, but they
can also supply items that only the pro's know
even exist, so I prefer supporting stores that
have that deep competency and supply sourcing).


(*) I do not visit the local big box home
improvement stores more than once a month
or so, but whenever I do I also walk down the
aisles which include electrical items even if
I have zero reason to purchase any items
just to level-set me list of items they stock.

On 11/28/23 12:43, Owen DeLong wrote:
> I’ve never used ENT (never even seen that name, TBH). 1” EMT is readily available at Home Depot and Lowes out here as well as several reputable supply houses.

The nice thing about promoting industry standards is clever products to
meet those standards will magically show up in big box stores and supply
houses :-)

Builders and electricians get used to doing it.