Mailing List Archive

The pessimistic (and likely most realistic) take is that enabling
potential customers to do research like that is seen as a missed
opportunity for a sales contact.


------ Original Message ------
From "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net>
To "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org>
Date 10/26/2023 12:17:22
Subject Pulling of Network Maps

>Has anyone else noticed a trend of some network operators that
>previously offered street-level detailed maps, not only upon request,
>but also posted publicly have started to only provide them upon quotes?
>
>Not even the popular online mapping services have
>current-enough-to-be-useful maps.
>
>The claim is that it's proprietary. A) It wasn't before and B) No it
>isn't. Everything you've ever done is a FOIA request or 811 design
>ticket away.
>
>I'm not sure how this helps the companies. It certainly makes it harder
>for me trying to piece networks together when they won't tell me where
>they are until I give them A and Z locations. If it's too hard for me
>to figure out where you are, you just plain won't get the sale.
>
>
>
>-----
>Mike Hammett
>Intelligent Computing Solutions
>http://www.ics-il.com
>
>Midwest-IX
>http://www.midwest-ix.com

>
> If it's too hard for me to figure out where you are, you just plain won't
> get the sale.


My experience with maps over the last decade tells me that even most
vendors don't actually know where they are. :)

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 12:18?PM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:

> Has anyone else noticed a trend of some network operators that previously
> offered street-level detailed maps, not only upon request, but also posted
> publicly have started to only provide them upon quotes?
>
> Not even the popular online mapping services have
> current-enough-to-be-useful maps.
>
> The claim is that it's proprietary. A) It wasn't before and B) No it
> isn't. Everything you've ever done is a FOIA request or 811 design ticket
> away.
>
> I'm not sure how this helps the companies. It certainly makes it harder
> for me trying to piece networks together when they won't tell me where they
> are until I give them A and Z locations. If it's too hard for me to figure
> out where you are, you just plain won't get the sale.
>
>
>
> -----
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
> Midwest-IX
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>

I had that too. The map showed a facility was online. It wasn't. Lots of build to get there.




-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest-IX
http://www.midwest-ix.com

----- Original Message -----

From: "Tom Beecher" <beecher@beecher.cc>
To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net>
Cc: "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2023 12:01:33 PM
Subject: Re: Pulling of Network Maps




If it's too hard for me to figure out where you are, you just plain won't get the sale.




My experience with maps over the last decade tells me that even most vendors don't actually know where they are. :)


On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 12:18 PM Mike Hammett < nanog@ics-il.net > wrote:

<blockquote>



Has anyone else noticed a trend of some network operators that previously offered street-level detailed maps, not only upon request, but also posted publicly have started to only provide them upon quotes?


Not even the popular online mapping services have current-enough-to-be-useful maps.


The claim is that it's proprietary. A) It wasn't before and B) No it isn't. Everything you've ever done is a FOIA request or 811 design ticket away.


I'm not sure how this helps the companies. It certainly makes it harder for me trying to piece networks together when they won't tell me where they are until I give them A and Z locations. If it's too hard for me to figure out where you are, you just plain won't get the sale.




-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest-IX
http://www.midwest-ix.com

</blockquote>

Le Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 11:17:22AM -0500, Mike Hammett a ?crit :
> Has anyone else noticed a trend of some network operators that previously
> offered street-level detailed maps, not only upon request, but also posted
> publicly have started to only provide them upon quotes?
>

There is no small profit :)

Also some will fear sabotage if the pathway is publicly available.

But it already is publicly available to someone that's interested enough via the permits issued by the appropriate jurisdictions or if you put in 811 design stage tickets.




-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest-IX
http://www.midwest-ix.com

----- Original Message -----

From: "Denis Fondras" <xxnog@ledeuns.net>
To: nanog@nanog.org
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2023 12:22:56 PM
Subject: Re: Pulling of Network Maps

Le Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 11:17:22AM -0500, Mike Hammett a écrit :
> Has anyone else noticed a trend of some network operators that previously
> offered street-level detailed maps, not only upon request, but also posted
> publicly have started to only provide them upon quotes?
>

There is no small profit :)

Also some will fear sabotage if the pathway is publicly available.

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 10:01?AM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
> My experience with maps over the last decade tells me that even most vendors don't actually know where they are. :)

So true. And not that young a problem. I leased some dark fiber more
than a decade ago. They sent an unexpectedly expensive build proposal
to connect my building. I asked: "Why are you trenching to the manhole
down the street instead of the one right outside?" They asked, "what
manhole?" Long story short, they dispatched a guy who popped the
cover, pumped the water out of the vault and confirmed that they had a
location they didn't know about.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


--
William Herrin
bill@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

and I get how that could be. We had a design. Gave the prints to the contractors. Someone internally verified the contractors built what was on the prints. A year or two goes by and some laterals ended up costing more because handholes on the prints were never built. Our locator goes to a handhole to send his signal and the handhole doesn't exist or finds a handhole in a spot not on the prints. Always fun managing OSP.




-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest-IX
http://www.midwest-ix.com

----- Original Message -----

From: "William Herrin" <bill@herrin.us>
To: "Tom Beecher" <beecher@beecher.cc>
Cc: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net>, "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2023 12:33:25 PM
Subject: Re: Pulling of Network Maps

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 10:01 AM Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
> My experience with maps over the last decade tells me that even most vendors don't actually know where they are. :)

So true. And not that young a problem. I leased some dark fiber more
than a decade ago. They sent an unexpectedly expensive build proposal
to connect my building. I asked: "Why are you trenching to the manhole
down the street instead of the one right outside?" They asked, "what
manhole?" Long story short, they dispatched a guy who popped the
cover, pumped the water out of the vault and confirmed that they had a
location they didn't know about.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


--
William Herrin
bill@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

Well, in fairness: those approaches *leave tracks* for a potential attacker;
picking up published maps does not...

Cheers,
-- jra

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net>
> To: "Denis Fondras" <xxnog@ledeuns.net>
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2023 1:30:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Pulling of Network Maps

> But it already is publicly available to someone that's interested enough via the
> permits issued by the appropriate jurisdictions or if you put in 811 design
> stage tickets.
>
>
>
>
> -----
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
> Midwest-IX
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Denis Fondras" <xxnog@ledeuns.net>
> To: nanog@nanog.org
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2023 12:22:56 PM
> Subject: Re: Pulling of Network Maps
>
> Le Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 11:17:22AM -0500, Mike Hammett a écrit :
>> Has anyone else noticed a trend of some network operators that previously
>> offered street-level detailed maps, not only upon request, but also posted
>> publicly have started to only provide them upon quotes?
>>
>
> There is no small profit :)
>
> Also some will fear sabotage if the pathway is publicly available.

--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274