Mailing List Archive

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:24?AM Thomas Beer <thomas.beer@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi All!
>
> Has anybody a link to a cost-free service for visualizations of internet
> exchange inter-connections?
>
> Thanks & cheers
> Tom
>

Hi Tom,

There's a couple of different ways of interpreting your question, which
will impact the answers you get.

You might mean "exchange inter-connections" as "how are the different
internet exchanges connected to each other?"
in which case the answer is generally "through the Internet". ^_^;

You might instead be thinking of "how are different participants in a
single internet exchange cross-connected to
each other?" -- in which case the answer is "through in-building wiring
that often even the building owner isn't
entirely aware of what path the connections are taking." ^_^;

You might also be asking about BGP relationships, not physical connections,
in which case mining route-views,
RIPE, and other BGP data sources, along with PeeringDB will allow you to
see a percentage of the picture, though
not the entire model.

You might also be asking about "visualization" in the sense of "looking at
traffic volumes across interconnections",
at which point you're whistling in the dark; other than the aggregate
traffic volume visualization that some exchanges
provide, nobody is sharing their traffic graphs externally, sorry.

So, the first step to getting a meaningful answer is to clarify your
question a bit more.
Are you asking about interconnections *between* internet exchanges, or
interconnections *within* a single exchange?
Are you looking for physical layer interconnection information, or logical
(BGP neighbor) interconnection information?
Are you just looking for a binary "does an interconnection relationship
exist", or are you looking to visualize traffic volumes across that
relationship?

If you can provide a bit more clarity in what you're looking for, we'll
have a better idea of how exactly to tell you you're out of luck. ^_^;

Thanks!

Matt

> You might instead be thinking of "how are different participants in a
> single internet exchange cross-connected to each other?" -- in which
> case the answer is "through in-building wiring that often even the
> building owner isn't entirely aware of what path the connections are
> taking." ^_^;

actually, i am amazed by the extent of "remote peering." if one
measures rtt to all the peers on the six, for example, the curve goes
out to well over 200ms. the six has seen remote peers from the gulf
states, and i do not mean louisiana.

graph below is one way to visualize ix connectivity, the op's question.

randy

> actually, i am amazed by the extent of "remote peering." if one
> measures rtt to all the peers on the six, for example, the curve goes
> out to well over 200ms. the six has seen remote peers from the gulf
> states, and i do not mean louisiana.
>
> graph below is one way to visualize ix connectivity, the op's
> question.

i guess the list does not like graphs. decline of net predicted; news
at eleven. if you care, unicast.

randy

Hi Matt,


> You might mean "exchange inter-connections" as "how are the different
> internet exchanges connected to each other?"
> in which case the answer is generally "through the Internet". ^_^;
>

I meant ix internet exchange path visualization and an online tool to take
a look at it in (near) real time!

Cheers

>
> I meant ix internet exchange path visualization and an online tool to take
> a look at it in (near) real time!


I'm still not sure I follow your question.

Are you asking 'How does IX-FOO connect to IX-BAR?' Or are you asking 'What
ASNs connect to IX-FOO AND IX-BAR?'

On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 7:53?AM Thomas Beer <thomas.beer@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Matt,
>
>
>> You might mean "exchange inter-connections" as "how are the different
>> internet exchanges connected to each other?"
>> in which case the answer is generally "through the Internet". ^_^;
>>
>
> I meant ix internet exchange path visualization and an online tool to take
> a look at it in (near) real time!
>
> Cheers
>
>

> On Aug 15, 2023, at 3:35 PM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
>
>> actually, i am amazed by the extent of "remote peering." if one
>> measures rtt to all the peers on the six, for example, the curve goes
>> out to well over 200ms. the six has seen remote peers from the gulf
>> states, and i do not mean louisiana.
>>
>> graph below is one way to visualize ix connectivity, the op's
>> question.
>
> i guess the list does not like graphs. decline of net predicted; news
> at eleven. if you care, unicast.

At $priorjob we had a latency requirement, must be I think it was ~2ms away.

The number of IX that are effectively a global transit backbone is quite odd.

I would be interested in seeing the graphic, if you can unicast or post URL.

- Jared

Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 08:06:11AM +0200, Thomas Beer:
> Hi Matt,
>
>
> > You might mean "exchange inter-connections" as "how are the different
> > internet exchanges connected to each other?"
> > in which case the answer is generally "through the Internet". ^_^;
> >
>
> I meant ix internet exchange path visualization and an online tool to take
> a look at it in (near) real time!

ISTR caida has some IX visualisation tools?

https://catalog.caida.org/search?query=t%20links%3Dtag%3Acaida%20internet%20exchange

Yep seen this. Awful bollo&ks.

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023, 20:30 Randy Bush, <randy@psg.com> wrote:

> > You might instead be thinking of "how are different participants in a
> > single internet exchange cross-connected to each other?" -- in which
> > case the answer is "through in-building wiring that often even the
> > building owner isn't entirely aware of what path the connections are
> > taking." ^_^;
>
> actually, i am amazed by the extent of "remote peering." if one
> measures rtt to all the peers on the six, for example, the curve goes
> out to well over 200ms. the six has seen remote peers from the gulf
> states, and i do not mean louisiana.
>
> graph below is one way to visualize ix connectivity, the op's question.
>
> randy
>
>

> On Aug 21, 2023, at 8:32 AM, heasley <heas@shrubbery.net> wrote:
>
> Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 08:06:11AM +0200, Thomas Beer:
>>
>> I meant ix internet exchange path visualization and an online tool to take
>> a look at it in (near) real time!

We currently do not have any near real time path visualizations. If you are happy with AS level you could consider ThousandEyes or RIPE’s BGPlay. You would need to get a list of IXP ASes.

> ISTR caida has some IX visualisation tools?
>
> https://catalog.caida.org/search?query=t%20links%3Dtag%3Acaida%20internet%20exchange


If you remove ’t’ from your filters you will double the number of matches.

Bradley

On Sun, Aug 20, 2023 at 11:06?PM Thomas Beer <thomas.beer@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Matt,
>
>
>> You might mean "exchange inter-connections" as "how are the different
>> internet exchanges connected to each other?"
>> in which case the answer is generally "through the Internet". ^_^;
>>
>
> I meant ix internet exchange path visualization and an online tool to take
> a look at it in (near) real time!
>
> Cheers
>
>

Ah, thank you for the enlightening clarification.

No such tool exists, sorry.

Thanks!

Matt

I hear the cybergeography project is making a comeback.

https://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/staff/m.dodge/cybergeography/atlas/atlas.html

On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 5:17?PM Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 20, 2023 at 11:06?PM Thomas Beer <thomas.beer@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Matt,
>>
>>>
>>> You might mean "exchange inter-connections" as "how are the different internet exchanges connected to each other?"
>>> in which case the answer is generally "through the Internet". ^_^;
>>
>>
>> I meant ix internet exchange path visualization and an online tool to take a look at it in (near) real time!
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>
>
> Ah, thank you for the enlightening clarification.
>
> No such tool exists, sorry.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Matt
>



--
Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxmoBr4cBKg
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

Hi All!

to make an (intermediate) summary so far, it's 2023 and there are no tools
available
for BGP, ASN and IX interconnection visualization static or dynamic?!

Nobody has a top-level understanding / awareness of the infrastructure
topology and fixes
"bottlenecks", route misconfiguration et al. on a peer - to - peer basis?!

Cheers
Tom

On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 at 02:34, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:

> I hear the cybergeography project is making a comeback.
>
>
> https://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/staff/m.dodge/cybergeography/atlas/atlas.html
>
> On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 5:17?PM Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 20, 2023 at 11:06?PM Thomas Beer <thomas.beer@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Matt,
> >>
> >>>
> >>> You might mean "exchange inter-connections" as "how are the different
> internet exchanges connected to each other?"
> >>> in which case the answer is generally "through the Internet". ^_^;
> >>
> >>
> >> I meant ix internet exchange path visualization and an online tool to
> take a look at it in (near) real time!
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >
> >
> > Ah, thank you for the enlightening clarification.
> >
> > No such tool exists, sorry.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Matt
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxmoBr4cBKg
> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>

> On Aug 22, 2023, at 10:39, Thomas Beer <thomas.beer@gmail.com> wrote:
> to make an (intermediate) summary so far, it's 2023 and there are no tools available
> for BGP, ASN and IX interconnection visualization static or dynamic?!

No, that is not at all correct. People have tools that solve their actual needs. Do you have an actual need, or are you just blathering about how you’re smarter than the people who do it for a living?

> Nobody has a top-level understanding / awareness of the infrastructure topology and fixes
> "bottlenecks", route misconfiguration et al. on a peer - to - peer basis?!

Can you illuminate for us what precisely you’re trying to figure out? Right now it just looks like you’re mashing words you found together. And you’re doing it in public, on a mailing list with tens of thousands of people on it. People who are self-aware enough not to do that, and thus might consider it a breach of etiquette for you to do so.

-Bill

*facepalm*

You asked for a cost-free, publicly visible and available tool.

The lack of such does *not* mean tools don't exist. It just means you
won't find them available for free to the general public.

Asking if X exists and being told 'no' does not say anything about whether
Y exists or not.

People who need to know have tools.

Those tools are generally not free, however.

Matt



On Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 01:40 Thomas Beer <thomas.beer@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi All!
>
> to make an (intermediate) summary so far, it's 2023 and there are no tools
> available
> for BGP, ASN and IX interconnection visualization static or dynamic?!
>
> Nobody has a top-level understanding / awareness of the infrastructure
> topology and fixes
> "bottlenecks", route misconfiguration et al. on a peer - to - peer basis?!
>
> Cheers
> Tom
>
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 at 02:34, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I hear the cybergeography project is making a comeback.
>>
>>
>> https://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/staff/m.dodge/cybergeography/atlas/atlas.html
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 5:17?PM Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Aug 20, 2023 at 11:06?PM Thomas Beer <thomas.beer@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi Matt,
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> You might mean "exchange inter-connections" as "how are the different
>> internet exchanges connected to each other?"
>> >>> in which case the answer is generally "through the Internet". ^_^;
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I meant ix internet exchange path visualization and an online tool to
>> take a look at it in (near) real time!
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Ah, thank you for the enlightening clarification.
>> >
>> > No such tool exists, sorry.
>> >
>> > Thanks!
>> >
>> > Matt
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxmoBr4cBKg
>> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>>
>

I don't think any of us really understand what you're hoping to find. I
sure don't. I think that this might be a result of a disconnect between
your understanding of how these should be monitored and how they are
monitored.

Specifically, of your two statements below, one is true and one is false.
Just because there are no free "visualization" tools available doesn't mean
that there isn't an understanding of the infrastructure.

I struggle to see how a visualization tool would help with a big picture
view. The scale of interconnection is so staggering that any visualization
would of necessity be incomplete so mere mortals could process it with our
visual sensors. Unless what you mean by visualization is different than
what I envision, the resulting visualization wouldn't be all that useful to
network operations.

As a result, every network operator that I'm aware of relies on various
monitoring tools to alert them based on metrics previously set by humans.
I.E. circuit congestion and peer status and so on. There are advanced
tools which do sort through various data sets or traffic to try to alert
humans to things which seem out of place. But these are not generally
visualization tools, but instead essentially report and alert generators.
Some times the reports or tools show pretty graphs but I'm not sure I'd
classify that as visualization.

On the other hand, I wonder if I'm perhaps missing what your end goal is
here. If you could be more verbose about the types of data you hope to get
out of the tool, then perhaps someone could reply with how that's monitored
today.

On Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 7:43 AM Thomas Beer <thomas.beer@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi All!
>
> to make an (intermediate) summary so far, it's 2023 and there are no tools
> available
> for BGP, ASN and IX interconnection visualization static or dynamic?!
>
> Nobody has a top-level understanding / awareness of the infrastructure
> topology and fixes
> "bottlenecks", route misconfiguration et al. on a peer - to - peer basis?!
>
> Cheers
> Tom
>
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 at 02:34, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I hear the cybergeography project is making a comeback.
>>
>>
>> https://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/staff/m.dodge/cybergeography/atlas/atlas.html
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 5:17?PM Matthew Petach <mpetach@netflight.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Aug 20, 2023 at 11:06?PM Thomas Beer <thomas.beer@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi Matt,
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> You might mean "exchange inter-connections" as "how are the different
>> internet exchanges connected to each other?"
>> >>> in which case the answer is generally "through the Internet". ^_^;
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I meant ix internet exchange path visualization and an online tool to
>> take a look at it in (near) real time!
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Ah, thank you for the enlightening clarification.
>> >
>> > No such tool exists, sorry.
>> >
>> > Thanks!
>> >
>> > Matt
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxmoBr4cBKg
>> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>>
>

I've always been a little less harsh than What Jared mentions, but my theory is like within say 5-7 ms is probably reasonable as long as the endpoint is closer than the next major IX both are present on. I don't really know what folks think they are getting by peering across the world. I think this might be one of those vanity peering type situations instead of any real technical justification. I have a hard time understanding how it would not often make routing worse.

John