Mailing List Archive

On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 at 13:51, James Linder <jam@tigger.ws> wrote:

>
>
> > On 3 Nov 2020, at 8:14 pm, Jim Abernathy <jfabernathy@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Sadly, there are no Australian channels doing 1080p - the best they do
> is 1080i ... which as Stephen mentioned, often results in judder/jagging
> for sport or panning type movies if not dealt with correctly.
>
> I recorded a few HD and ‘ordinary’ channels at the same time. (Australia
> ABC, SBS, 7, 9)
> Looking at a paused scene in each recording they are, as far as I can see,
> identical.
>
> Is this an artifact of TV in Australia or of mythtv rendering?
> ie to paraphrase I see no difference on HD recordings, even though the HD
> recordings are larger.
> eg
> I look at some of Attenbourgh, pause playback and examin the insect's eyes
> . . .
> James
>
>
I can only suggest that you must need a new Telly, or new eyes. ;-)
There's a massive difference between HD/SD channels when I look at them -
even live - I don't need to pause it to see the difference, it's extremely
noticeable.

Owen

> On 1 Dec 2020, at 6:30 pm, Owen <manicmoose@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 at 13:51, James Linder <jam@tigger.ws> wrote:
>
>
> > On 3 Nov 2020, at 8:14 pm, Jim Abernathy <jfabernathy@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Sadly, there are no Australian channels doing 1080p - the best they do is 1080i ... which as Stephen mentioned, often results in judder/jagging for sport or panning type movies if not dealt with correctly.
>
> I recorded a few HD and ‘ordinary’ channels at the same time. (Australia ABC, SBS, 7, 9)
> Looking at a paused scene in each recording they are, as far as I can see, identical.
>
> Is this an artifact of TV in Australia or of mythtv rendering?
> ie to paraphrase I see no difference on HD recordings, even though the HD recordings are larger.
> eg
> I look at some of Attenbourgh, pause playback and examin the insect's eyes . . .
> James
>
>
> I can only suggest that you must need a new Telly, or new eyes. ;-)
> There's a massive difference between HD/SD channels when I look at them - even live - I don't need to pause it to see the difference, it's extremely noticeable.

Owen thanks very much.
These are two screen shots on a macbook retina display (2650x1650) ish
They look similar on intel-1080 monitor. I'll examin a real TV now.
They are ABC SD and HD. My critical look is at the text, but scene changes do not make much difference.
http://tigger.ws/downloads/twoSD.png
http://tigger.ws/downloads/twoHD.png
Cheers
James

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On 12/1/20 6:45 AM, James Linder wrote:
> Owen thanks very much.
> These are two screen shots on a macbook retina display (2650x1650) ish
> They look similar on intel-1080 monitor. I'll examin a real TV now.
> They are ABC SD and HD. My critical look is at the text, but scene changes do not make much difference.
> http://tigger.ws/downloads/twoSD.png
> http://tigger.ws/downloads/twoHD.png


For an HD recording, the quality of the latter is quite poor. My hunch
is that it's 480p instead of HD (or whatever the p equivalent of the SD
signal in your region is).

To eliminate some variables, try running "ffprobe" on some recordings.
For example, here are a couple from my system:

Input #0, mpegts, from '2511_20201201120000.ts':
Duration: 01:00:30.42, start: 48950.153256, bitrate: 13824 kb/s
Program 1
Stream #0:0[0x641]: Video: mpeg2video (Main) ([2][0][0][0] /
0x0002), yuv420p(tv, bt709), 1920x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], Closed
Captions, max. 79975 kb/s, 29.97 fps, 29.97 tbr, 90k tbn, 59.94 tbc
Stream #0:1[0x642](eng): Audio: ac3 (AC-3 / 0x332D4341), 48000 Hz,
5.1(side), fltp, 384 kb/s
Stream #0:2[0x643](spa): Audio: ac3 (AC-3 / 0x332D4341), 48000 Hz,
stereo, fltp, 192 kb/s


Input #0, mpegts, from '2235_20201112050000.ts':
Duration: 01:22:29.28, start: 46678.077111, bitrate: 3161 kb/s
Program 1
Stream #0:0[0xb0f]: Video: mpeg2video (Main) ([2][0][0][0] /
0x0002), yuv420p(tv, smpte170m), 720x480 [SAR 8:9 DAR 4:3], Closed
Captions, max. 7500 kb/s, 29.97 fps, 29.97 tbr, 90k tbn, 59.94 tbc
Stream #0:1[0xb10](eng): Audio: ac3 (AC-3 / 0x332D4341), 48000 Hz,
5.1(side), fltp, 384 kb/s
Stream #0:2[0xb11](spa): Audio: ac3 (AC-3 / 0x332D4341), 48000 Hz,
stereo, fltp, 96 kb/s
Stream #0:3[0xb12]: Unknown: none ([134][0][0][0] / 0x0086)
Unsupported codec with id 0 for input stream 3



The first is HD, as indicated by the "1920x1080"
The second is considered SD, with a resolution of 720x480.


What is the resolution of the recording for what you used for the
"twoHD.png" screenshot?


-WD



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On 2020-12-01 6:45 a.m., James Linder wrote:

>> I can only suggest that you must need a new Telly, or new eyes. ;-)
>> There's a massive difference between HD/SD channels when I look at them - even live - I don't need to pause it to see the difference, it's extremely noticeable.
>
> Owen thanks very much.
> These are two screen shots on a macbook retina display (2650x1650) ish
> They look similar on intel-1080 monitor. I'll examin a real TV now.
> They are ABC SD and HD. My critical look is at the text, but scene changes do not make much difference.
> http://tigger.ws/downloads/twoSD.png
> http://tigger.ws/downloads/twoHD.png
> Cheers
> James

That second shot is NOT HD. It never was HD. It is a shot from the TV
show 'Doc Martin'. A quick look at IMDB shows that the show is now 10
seasons old and for at least the first 8 years filming was done with
*16mm film* (Arriflex cameras). The show would then have been scanned to
European standard broadcast (PAL / SECAM) and quite likely *from that*
to any other standard (NTSC). And your broadcast (originally in PAL)
would have then been further transcribed to DVB-T for broadcast.
So too many steps in that chain.

And that explains to me, why Doc Martin is always letterboxed when I see
it broadcast OTA *or* via cable from PBS Buffalo, New York: they cannot
do anything to change how it displays. Without looking I suspect that
OTA, on a 720i tv screen, I am seeing the original 576 line PAL scan image!

You need to find some real HD content. I suggest that you dial up some
on air sports, such as AFL and take a close look at panning scenes such
as where the camera follows a kick. (You may find it hard to record such
shows in SD, as nowadays, they are almost always in HD.)

Broadcasters can (and do) change the transmission rate for certain
shows. Each radio spectrum 'channel' has a limited amount of bandwidth:
about 20GB per hour total. So one digital stream within the 'channel'
can be given more of the bandwidth than normal and the subsidiary
'channels'/ digital streams are decreased.

For US broadcast, NBC increases the transmission rate for sports to
10-11 Gb per hour. This is especially visible when 'signature' sports
programs are being transmitted. Olympic hockey as a high motion sport
may get even more than 12GB. CBC does the same thing with sports. I
would bet that ABC (Oz) does the same.

Regular programs are 6-7 GB per hour while news and other 'static'
programs are even less than 5Gb. (Just look at the recorded program
size). The visual differences are notable and the exact decoding method
used (nvidia slim, high, opengl etc) make a visible difference for
tracking shots.

Geoff


R. Geoffrey Newbury

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> On 2 Dec 2020, at 12:06 am, Will Dormann <wdormann@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/1/20 6:45 AM, James Linder wrote:
>> Owen thanks very much.
>> These are two screen shots on a macbook retina display (2650x1650) ish
>> They look similar on intel-1080 monitor. I'll examin a real TV now.
>> They are ABC SD and HD. My critical look is at the text, but scene changes do not make much difference.
>> http://tigger.ws/downloads/twoSD.png
>> http://tigger.ws/downloads/twoHD.png
>
>
> For an HD recording, the quality of the latter is quite poor. My hunch is that it's 480p instead of HD (or whatever the p equivalent of the SD signal in your region is).
>
> To eliminate some variables, try running "ffprobe" on some recordings. For example, here are a couple from my system:
>
> Input #0, mpegts, from '2511_20201201120000.ts':
> Duration: 01:00:30.42, start: 48950.153256, bitrate: 13824 kb/s
> Program 1
> Stream #0:0[0x641]: Video: mpeg2video (Main) ([2][0][0][0] / 0x0002), yuv420p(tv, bt709), 1920x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], Closed Captions, max. 79975 kb/s, 29.97 fps, 29.97 tbr, 90k tbn, 59.94 tbc
> Stream #0:1[0x642](eng): Audio: ac3 (AC-3 / 0x332D4341), 48000 Hz, 5.1(side), fltp, 384 kb/s
> Stream #0:2[0x643](spa): Audio: ac3 (AC-3 / 0x332D4341), 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 192 kb/s
>
>
> Input #0, mpegts, from '2235_20201112050000.ts':
> Duration: 01:22:29.28, start: 46678.077111, bitrate: 3161 kb/s
> Program 1
> Stream #0:0[0xb0f]: Video: mpeg2video (Main) ([2][0][0][0] / 0x0002), yuv420p(tv, smpte170m), 720x480 [SAR 8:9 DAR 4:3], Closed Captions, max. 7500 kb/s, 29.97 fps, 29.97 tbr, 90k tbn, 59.94 tbc
> Stream #0:1[0xb10](eng): Audio: ac3 (AC-3 / 0x332D4341), 48000 Hz, 5.1(side), fltp, 384 kb/s
> Stream #0:2[0xb11](spa): Audio: ac3 (AC-3 / 0x332D4341), 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 96 kb/s
> Stream #0:3[0xb12]: Unknown: none ([134][0][0][0] / 0x0086)
> Unsupported codec with id 0 for input stream 3
>
>
>
> The first is HD, as indicated by the "1920x1080"
> The second is considered SD, with a resolution of 720x480.
>
>
> What is the resolution of the recording for what you used for the "twoHD.png" screenshot?

I have not kept THOSE in HD as cutlist editing h264 is more of a pain, but here are two. That Doc Martin was probed too and was 1080P25
I asked about transmitters in perth, but I'll look at 'real TV' to see a difference. I can't believe that the 1/2 dozen frontends that I've put together, mostly various NUCs and macs, ALL have a resolution issue.

Input #0, mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2, from '/store/Movies/Myth-K/Kingsman: The Secret Service.mp4':
Metadata:
major_brand : isom
minor_version : 512
compatible_brands: isomiso2avc1mp41
encoder : Lavf58.29.100
Duration: 01:55:53.12, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 3127 kb/s
Stream #0:0(und): Video: h264 (High) (avc1 / 0x31637661), yuv420p(tv), 1920x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], 2738 kb/s, 24.98 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc (default)
Metadata:
handler_name : VideoHandler
Stream #0:1(eng): Audio: ac3 (ac-3 / 0x332D6361), 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 384 kb/s (default)
Metadata:
handler_name : SoundHandler
Side data:
audio service type: main


Input #0, mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2, from '/store/Movies/Myth-B/Barack Obama:The Interview.mp4':
Metadata:
major_brand : isom
minor_version : 512
compatible_brands: isomiso2avc1mp41
encoder : Lavf58.29.100
Duration: 00:37:47.10, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 4413 kb/s
Stream #0:0(und): Video: h264 (High) (avc1 / 0x31637661), yuv420p(tv, bt709), 1920x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], 4023 kb/s, 49.90 fps, 50 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc (default)
Metadata:
handler_name : VideoHandler
Stream #0:1(eng): Audio: ac3 (ac-3 / 0x332D6361), 48000 Hz, 5.1(side), fltp, 384 kb/s (default)
Metadata:
handler_name : SoundHandler
Side data:
audio service type: main

As an a/b test is anybody able to post a decent quality HD recording somewhere that I can grab from?

thanks
James
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> On 2 Nov 2020, at 10:12 pm, Stephen Worthington <stephen_agent@jsw.gen.nz> wrote:
>
>> A big improvement is all the new motherboards have M-2 slots that
>> support PCI3x4 NVMe 2280 SSD modules that support 3,500MB/s read speeds.
>
> Actually, PCIe 4.0 is now available on the latest motherboard M.2
> slots, and there are some PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs available. At a price,
> of course. But the speeds are staggering. This sort of thing in
> combination with an up to date CPU would be really good for large
> builds like kernels. I have just updated my mother's MythTV box with
> a decent Ryzen 3 system and matching NVMe SSD and the build time on
> the TBS DVB-S2 drivers (a full V4L build) is less than a third of what
> it takes on my MythTV box. I am now planning upgrades for my systems,
> as it is clearly worth doing now, even if you do not get high end
> hardware. But I am waiting to see what the local prices for the new
> Ryzen releases will be before I decide - I really would like to be
> able to get PCIe 4.0. I think the planned release date is about 5th
> Nov.

My backend (nuc gen 8)

/dev/nvme0n1p5:
Timing cached reads: 20684 MB in 1.99 seconds = 10393.20 MB/sec
Timing buffered disk reads: 8572 MB in 3.00 seconds = 2857.14 MB/sec

James
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[snip]

> On 2 Dec 2020, at 3:49 am, R. G. Newbury <newbury@mandamus.org> wrote:
>
> That second shot is NOT HD. It never was HD. It is a shot from the TV show 'Doc Martin'. A quick look at IMDB shows that the show is now 10 seasons old and for at least the first 8 years filming was done with *16mm film* (Arriflex cameras). The show would then have been scanned to European standard broadcast (PAL / SECAM) and quite likely *from that* to any other standard (NTSC). And your broadcast (originally in PAL) would have then been further transcribed to DVB-T for broadcast.
> So too many steps in that chain.

[snip]

In no way am I being anti, and I’m asking for help, so thanks, but since trying to solve a technical issue being pedantic is wise

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10087290/?ref_=ttep_ep5

October last year.
James
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On 02/12/2020 00:00, James Linder wrote:
>
>
>> On 2 Dec 2020, at 12:06 am, Will Dormann <wdormann@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 12/1/20 6:45 AM, James Linder wrote:
>>> Owen thanks very much.
>>> These are two screen shots on a macbook retina display (2650x1650) ish
>>> They look similar on intel-1080 monitor. I'll examin a real TV now.
>>> They are ABC SD and HD. My critical look is at the text, but scene changes do not make much difference.
>>> http://tigger.ws/downloads/twoSD.png
>>> http://tigger.ws/downloads/twoHD.png
>>
>>
>> For an HD recording, the quality of the latter is quite poor. My hunch is that it's 480p instead of HD (or whatever the p equivalent of the SD signal in your region is).
>>
>> To eliminate some variables, try running "ffprobe" on some recordings. For example, here are a couple from my system:
>>
>> Input #0, mpegts, from '2511_20201201120000.ts':
>> Duration: 01:00:30.42, start: 48950.153256, bitrate: 13824 kb/s
>> Program 1
>> Stream #0:0[0x641]: Video: mpeg2video (Main) ([2][0][0][0] / 0x0002), yuv420p(tv, bt709), 1920x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], Closed Captions, max. 79975 kb/s, 29.97 fps, 29.97 tbr, 90k tbn, 59.94 tbc
>> Stream #0:1[0x642](eng): Audio: ac3 (AC-3 / 0x332D4341), 48000 Hz, 5.1(side), fltp, 384 kb/s
>> Stream #0:2[0x643](spa): Audio: ac3 (AC-3 / 0x332D4341), 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 192 kb/s
>>
>>
>> Input #0, mpegts, from '2235_20201112050000.ts':
>> Duration: 01:22:29.28, start: 46678.077111, bitrate: 3161 kb/s
>> Program 1
>> Stream #0:0[0xb0f]: Video: mpeg2video (Main) ([2][0][0][0] / 0x0002), yuv420p(tv, smpte170m), 720x480 [SAR 8:9 DAR 4:3], Closed Captions, max. 7500 kb/s, 29.97 fps, 29.97 tbr, 90k tbn, 59.94 tbc
>> Stream #0:1[0xb10](eng): Audio: ac3 (AC-3 / 0x332D4341), 48000 Hz, 5.1(side), fltp, 384 kb/s
>> Stream #0:2[0xb11](spa): Audio: ac3 (AC-3 / 0x332D4341), 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 96 kb/s
>> Stream #0:3[0xb12]: Unknown: none ([134][0][0][0] / 0x0086)
>> Unsupported codec with id 0 for input stream 3
>>
>>
>>
>> The first is HD, as indicated by the "1920x1080"
>> The second is considered SD, with a resolution of 720x480.
>>
>>
>> What is the resolution of the recording for what you used for the "twoHD.png" screenshot?
>
> I have not kept THOSE in HD as cutlist editing h264 is more of a pain, but here are two. That Doc Martin was probed too and was 1080P25
> I asked about transmitters in perth, but I'll look at 'real TV' to see a difference. I can't believe that the 1/2 dozen frontends that I've put together, mostly various NUCs and macs, ALL have a resolution issue.
>
> Input #0, mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2, from '/store/Movies/Myth-K/Kingsman: The Secret Service.mp4':
> Metadata:
> major_brand : isom
> minor_version : 512
> compatible_brands: isomiso2avc1mp41
> encoder : Lavf58.29.100
> Duration: 01:55:53.12, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 3127 kb/s
> Stream #0:0(und): Video: h264 (High) (avc1 / 0x31637661), yuv420p(tv), 1920x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], 2738 kb/s, 24.98 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc (default)
> Metadata:
> handler_name : VideoHandler
> Stream #0:1(eng): Audio: ac3 (ac-3 / 0x332D6361), 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 384 kb/s (default)
> Metadata:
> handler_name : SoundHandler
> Side data:
> audio service type: main
>
>
> Input #0, mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2, from '/store/Movies/Myth-B/Barack Obama:The Interview.mp4':
> Metadata:
> major_brand : isom
> minor_version : 512
> compatible_brands: isomiso2avc1mp41
> encoder : Lavf58.29.100
> Duration: 00:37:47.10, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 4413 kb/s
> Stream #0:0(und): Video: h264 (High) (avc1 / 0x31637661), yuv420p(tv, bt709), 1920x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], 4023 kb/s, 49.90 fps, 50 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc (default)
> Metadata:
> handler_name : VideoHandler
> Stream #0:1(eng): Audio: ac3 (ac-3 / 0x332D6361), 48000 Hz, 5.1(side), fltp, 384 kb/s (default)
> Metadata:
> handler_name : SoundHandler
> Side data:
> audio service type: main
>
> As an a/b test is anybody able to post a decent quality HD recording somewhere that I can grab from?
>

Take your pick https://jell.yfish.us/
depending on what you have hardware support for :)


Regards
Stuart

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On Wed, 2 Dec 2020 10:21:58 +0800, you wrote:

>> On 2 Nov 2020, at 10:12 pm, Stephen Worthington <stephen_agent@jsw.gen.nz> wrote:
>>
>>> A big improvement is all the new motherboards have M-2 slots that
>>> support PCI3x4 NVMe 2280 SSD modules that support 3,500MB/s read speeds.
>>
>> Actually, PCIe 4.0 is now available on the latest motherboard M.2
>> slots, and there are some PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs available. At a price,
>> of course. But the speeds are staggering. This sort of thing in
>> combination with an up to date CPU would be really good for large
>> builds like kernels. I have just updated my mother's MythTV box with
>> a decent Ryzen 3 system and matching NVMe SSD and the build time on
>> the TBS DVB-S2 drivers (a full V4L build) is less than a third of what
>> it takes on my MythTV box. I am now planning upgrades for my systems,
>> as it is clearly worth doing now, even if you do not get high end
>> hardware. But I am waiting to see what the local prices for the new
>> Ryzen releases will be before I decide - I really would like to be
>> able to get PCIe 4.0. I think the planned release date is about 5th
>> Nov.
>
>My backend (nuc gen 8)
>
>/dev/nvme0n1p5:
> Timing cached reads: 20684 MB in 1.99 seconds = 10393.20 MB/sec
> Timing buffered disk reads: 8572 MB in 3.00 seconds = 2857.14 MB/sec

Ignore the cached reads - they come from RAM. The buffered disk reads
look like an older SSD, probably PCIe 2.x - well less than half the
speed available on a PCIe 4.0 SSD. Of course, I do not actually have
a real PCIe 4.0 SSD to get speeds from, so I am just going by the
specifications.
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[snip]
>
> Take your pick https://jell.yfish.us/
> depending on what you have hardware support for :)
>

Thank you
James
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> On 2 Dec 2020, at 5:57 pm, James Linder <jam@tigger.ws> wrote:
>
>
> [snip]
>>
>> Take your pick https://jell.yfish.us/
>> depending on what you have hardware support for :)

Stuart thanks.
The quality of playback of the various 1080 jellyfish snips is way better than my OTA recordings, so my issue is NOT a mythtv render/playback one.
Both my mac and linux front end display the same issue and the test clips are good so my focus must be backend right?
The bit rate is not going to affect quality of slow moving jellyfish right?

James
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On Wed, 2 Dec 2020 at 23:36, James Linder <jam@tigger.ws> wrote:

>
>
> > On 2 Dec 2020, at 5:57 pm, James Linder <jam@tigger.ws> wrote:
> >
> >
> > [snip]
> >>
> >> Take your pick https://jell.yfish.us/
> >> depending on what you have hardware support for :)
>
> Stuart thanks.
> The quality of playback of the various 1080 jellyfish snips is way better
> than my OTA recordings, so my issue is NOT a mythtv render/playback one.
> Both my mac and linux front end display the same issue and the test clips
> are good so my focus must be backend right?
> The bit rate is not going to affect quality of slow moving jellyfish right?
>
>
Do you have separate sources defined in MythTV for SD and HD. Maybe your
HD card is connected to the SD source by mistake?

> On 3 Dec 2020, at 4:38 pm, David Watkins <watkinshome@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 2 Dec 2020 at 23:36, James Linder <jam@tigger.ws> wrote:
>
>
> > On 2 Dec 2020, at 5:57 pm, James Linder <jam@tigger.ws> wrote:
> >
> >
> > [snip]
> >>
> >> Take your pick https://jell.yfish.us/
> >> depending on what you have hardware support for :)
>
> Stuart thanks.
> The quality of playback of the various 1080 jellyfish snips is way better than my OTA recordings, so my issue is NOT a mythtv render/playback one.
> Both my mac and linux front end display the same issue and the test clips are good so my focus must be backend right?
> The bit rate is not going to affect quality of slow moving jellyfish right?
>
>
> Do you have separate sources defined in MythTV for SD and HD. Maybe your HD card is connected to the SD source by mistake?
>

I’m using haupauge twin OTA (DVB) tuners they do both SD and HD. I do not have seperate sources
James
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On 02/12/2020 23:34, James Linder wrote:
>
>
>> On 2 Dec 2020, at 5:57 pm, James Linder <jam@tigger.ws> wrote:
>>
>>
>> [snip]
>>>
>>> Take your pick https://jell.yfish.us/
>>> depending on what you have hardware support for :)
>
> Stuart thanks.
> The quality of playback of the various 1080 jellyfish snips is way better than my OTA recordings, so my issue is NOT a mythtv render/playback one.
> Both my mac and linux front end display the same issue and the test clips are good so my focus must be backend right?
> The bit rate is not going to affect quality of slow moving jellyfish right?
>

You might be running into the common problem of the broadcaster
compressing the crap out of the content to save bandwidth.

How do they make space for new channels???
Reduce the bandwidth of the existing channels (ie. reduce the quality)
and add a new channel in. *OR* they switch to a different encoding.
MPEG2 takes up more bandwidth than H264 for the same content quality.
H265 is even better...

It's not so prevalent on terrestrial broadcasts, but happens far more
often on satellite tv.

Sometimes I think that the quality of an "HD" channel these days is
about the same as the "SD" channels from a few years back.


Regards
Stuart

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>
>
> What are your HD recording filesizes, in GB/hour?

In the UK I generally see 1.3GB to 2GB/hour

SD is normally around 750MB/hour

It can vary significantly though depending on the channel and programme.
Should be a reasonable indication of the compression.

> On 3 Dec 2020, at 8:27 pm, David Watkins <watkinshome@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> What are your HD recording filesizes, in GB/hour?
>
> In the UK I generally see 1.3GB to 2GB/hour
>
> SD is normally around 750MB/hour
>
> It can vary significantly though depending on the channel and programme. Should be a reasonable indication of the compression.
> _______________________________________________
>

Methinks Stuart hit the nail on the head.
My HD is so poor that I questioned if I was screwing up.

Duration: 00:37:47.10, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 4413 kb/s
Stream #0:0(und): Video: h264 (High) (avc1 / 0x31637661), yuv420p(tv, bt709), 1920x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], 4023 kb/s, 49.90 fps, 50 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc (default)
Metadata:


[sandypit] /home/jam [1004]% ls -hl /store/Movies/Myth-B/Barack\ Obama\:The\ Interview.mp4
-rw-r--r-- 1 jam users 1.2G Nov 24 11:27 '/store/Movies/Myth-B/Barack Obama:The Interview.mp4’

Thanks all for the input
James
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> On Dec 3, 2020, at 7:27 AM, David Watkins <watkinshome@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> What are your HD recording filesizes, in GB/hour?
>
> In the UK I generally see 1.3GB to 2GB/hour
>
> SD is normally around 750MB/hour
>

Our 1080i broad casts in NC, USA ATSC 1.0 and mpeg2 range from3.6GB/hr to 4.3 GB/hr and 720p ranges from 2.5GB/hr to 4 GB/hr.

SD ranges from 600MB/hr to 1.2GB/hr.

Interestingly, I did a check on our hd broadcasts from 2013-2014, and our HD broadcasts were all around 7-8 GB/hr.

Just more data.

Regards.

On 12/3/20 8:12 AM, Jay Harbeston wrote:
>
>
>> On Dec 3, 2020, at 7:27 AM, David Watkins <watkinshome@gmail.com
>> <mailto:watkinshome@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> What are your HD recording filesizes, in GB/hour?
>>
>> In the UK I generally see 1.3GB to 2GB/hour
>>
>> SD is normally around 750MB/hour
>>
>
> Our 1080i broad casts in NC, USA ATSC 1.0 and mpeg2 range from3.6GB/hr
> to 4.3 GB/hr and 720p ranges from 2.5GB/hr ?to 4 GB/hr.
>
> SD ranges from 600MB/hr to 1.2GB/hr.
>
> Interestingly, I did a check on our hd broadcasts from 2013-2014, and
> our HD broadcasts were all around 7-8 GB/hr.
>
> Just more data.
>
> Regards.


I've been suspecting that MythTV frontends were not causing all the
artifacts I've been seeing.? I notice a wide range of GBs/hour lately.?
I record only USA OTA HD ATSC 1080i and 720P broadcasts and like
previously stated the HD file sizes have decreased since the FCC repack
of channels.

Jim A

On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 12:27:31 +0000, you wrote:

>>
>>
>> What are your HD recording filesizes, in GB/hour?
>
>In the UK I generally see 1.3GB to 2GB/hour
>
>SD is normally around 750MB/hour
>
>It can vary significantly though depending on the channel and programme.
>Should be a reasonable indication of the compression.

If that is H.265 it might be ok, but if it is H.264 then it is not
what I would call HD. Here in New Zealand our DVB-T HD programmes
(H.264) are over 3 Gibytes per hour. But when they first started,
when there were fewer channels, they were 4.5-5.5 Gibytes per hour.
And recently the only satellite service (Sky TV NZ) has converted all
their transponders from DVB-S to DVB-S2 and a number of their channels
are now around 4 Gibytes per hour.
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On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 14:33, Stephen Worthington <stephen_agent@jsw.gen.nz>
wrote:

> On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 12:27:31 +0000, you wrote:
>
> >>
> >>
> >> What are your HD recording filesizes, in GB/hour?
> >
> >In the UK I generally see 1.3GB to 2GB/hour
> >
> >SD is normally around 750MB/hour
> >
> >It can vary significantly though depending on the channel and programme.
> >Should be a reasonable indication of the compression.
>
> If that is H.265 it might be ok, but if it is H.264 then it is not
> what I would call HD. Here in New Zealand our DVB-T HD programmes
> (H.264) are over 3 Gibytes per hour. But when they first started,
> when there were fewer channels, they were 4.5-5.5 Gibytes per hour.
> And recently the only satellite service (Sky TV NZ) has converted all
> their transponders from DVB-S to DVB-S2 and a number of their channels
> are now around 4 Gibytes per hour.
>
>
That's interesting. What I said is typical of what I'm getting though here
in the UK.

[image: image.png]

I wonder if I should be getting 1080?

My TV is 42" 1080. So not so big, and my old eyes are fairly happy with the
HD quality I'm getting. The only thing I find poor is large black areas,
which can be very blocky.

I can feel a bit of research coming on.

D

On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 16:31, David Watkins <watkinshome@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 14:33, Stephen Worthington <stephen_agent@jsw.gen.nz>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 12:27:31 +0000, you wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> What are your HD recording filesizes, in GB/hour?
>> >
>> >In the UK I generally see 1.3GB to 2GB/hour
>> >
>> >SD is normally around 750MB/hour
>> >
>> >It can vary significantly though depending on the channel and programme.
>> >Should be a reasonable indication of the compression.
>>
>> If that is H.265 it might be ok, but if it is H.264 then it is not
>> what I would call HD. Here in New Zealand our DVB-T HD programmes
>> (H.264) are over 3 Gibytes per hour. But when they first started,
>> when there were fewer channels, they were 4.5-5.5 Gibytes per hour.
>> And recently the only satellite service (Sky TV NZ) has converted all
>> their transponders from DVB-S to DVB-S2 and a number of their channels
>> are now around 4 Gibytes per hour.
>>
>>
> That's interesting. What I said is typical of what I'm getting though here
> in the UK.
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> I wonder if I should be getting 1080?
>
> My TV is 42" 1080. So not so big, and my old eyes are fairly happy with
> the HD quality I'm getting. The only thing I find poor is large black
> areas, which can be very blocky.
>
> I can feel a bit of research coming on.
>
> D
>
>

From the BBC Website

To be classed as "true" high definition, we encode in at least 1280x720
> resolution or 720p. We use h.264 with a bitrate of 3.2Mbps (going up to
> 5Mbps for best quality, should your connection allow) and 128kbps audio.
> This means that streaming programmes in HD quality will put demands on your
> network connection




By my calculation 3.2Mbps = 1.44 GBytes/hour. So I'm not losing anything.
That's what they're sending me.

D

On 2020-12-03 16:50, David Watkins wrote:

> On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 16:31, David Watkins <watkinshome@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 14:33, Stephen Worthington <stephen_agent@jsw.gen.nz> wrote: On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 12:27:31 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>> What are your HD recording filesizes, in GB/hour?
>>
>> In the UK I generally see 1.3GB to 2GB/hour
>>
>> SD is normally around 750MB/hour
>>
>> It can vary significantly though depending on the channel and programme.
>> Should be a reasonable indication of the compression.
>
> If that is H.265 it might be ok, but if it is H.264 then it is not
> what I would call HD. Here in New Zealand our DVB-T HD programmes
> (H.264) are over 3 Gibytes per hour. But when they first started,
> when there were fewer channels, they were 4.5-5.5 Gibytes per hour.
> And recently the only satellite service (Sky TV NZ) has converted all
> their transponders from DVB-S to DVB-S2 and a number of their channels
> are now around 4 Gibytes per hour.
>
> That's interesting. What I said is typical of what I'm getting though here in the UK.
>
> I wonder if I should be getting 1080?
>
> My TV is 42" 1080. So not so big, and my old eyes are fairly happy with the HD quality I'm getting. The only thing I find poor is large black areas, which can be very blocky.
>
> I can feel a bit of research coming on.
>
> D

From the BBC Website

> To be classed as "true" high definition, we encode in at least 1280x720 resolution or 720p. We use h.264 with a bitrate of 3.2Mbps (going up to 5Mbps for best quality, should your connection allow) and 128kbps audio. This means that streaming programmes in HD quality will put demands on your network connection

>

By my calculation 3.2Mbps = 1.44 GBytes/hour. So I'm not losing
anything. That's what they're sending me.

But this thread is about broadcast and not streaming. I'm getting about
2GBytes per hour from a Freeview HD tuner for BBC One. Your mileage will
vary, especially on the commercial muxes where channel numbers seem to
be more important than quality. Freeview uses stochastic compression to
share variable compression rates between all the channels in real time.
Your beautiful wildlife scenery panning shot might go lumpy if someone
on the jewellery channel starts throwing glitter around.

CHeers,

Tim.

On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 17:08, TimP <mythtv@corky.co> wrote:

> On 2020-12-03 16:50, David Watkins wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 16:31, David Watkins <watkinshome@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 14:33, Stephen Worthington <
>> stephen_agent@jsw.gen.nz> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 12:27:31 +0000, you wrote:
>>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> What are your HD recording filesizes, in GB/hour?
>>> >
>>> >In the UK I generally see 1.3GB to 2GB/hour
>>> >
>>> >SD is normally around 750MB/hour
>>> >
>>> >It can vary significantly though depending on the channel and programme.
>>> >Should be a reasonable indication of the compression.
>>>
>>> If that is H.265 it might be ok, but if it is H.264 then it is not
>>> what I would call HD. Here in New Zealand our DVB-T HD programmes
>>> (H.264) are over 3 Gibytes per hour. But when they first started,
>>> when there were fewer channels, they were 4.5-5.5 Gibytes per hour.
>>> And recently the only satellite service (Sky TV NZ) has converted all
>>> their transponders from DVB-S to DVB-S2 and a number of their channels
>>> are now around 4 Gibytes per hour.
>>>
>>>
>> That's interesting. What I said is typical of what I'm getting though
>> here in the UK.
>>
>> [image: image.png]
>>
>> I wonder if I should be getting 1080?
>>
>> My TV is 42" 1080. So not so big, and my old eyes are fairly happy with
>> the HD quality I'm getting. The only thing I find poor is large black
>> areas, which can be very blocky.
>>
>> I can feel a bit of research coming on.
>>
>> D
>>
>>
>
> From the BBC Website
>
>
>> To be classed as "true" high definition, we encode in at least 1280x720
>> resolution or 720p. We use h.264 with a bitrate of 3.2Mbps (going up to
>> 5Mbps for best quality, should your connection allow) and 128kbps audio.
>> This means that streaming programmes in HD quality will put demands on your
>> network connection
>
>
>
>
> By my calculation 3.2Mbps = 1.44 GBytes/hour. So I'm not losing
> anything. That's what they're sending me.
>
>
> But this thread is about broadcast and not streaming. I'm getting about
> 2GBytes per hour from a Freeview HD tuner for BBC One. Your mileage will
> vary, especially on the commercial muxes where channel numbers seem to be
> more important than quality. Freeview uses stochastic compression to share
> variable compression rates between all the channels in real time. Your
> beautiful wildlife scenery panning shot might go lumpy if someone on the
> jewellery channel starts throwing glitter around.
>
> CHeers,
>
> Tim.
>
I **was** talking about broadcast, (DVB-T2 from the Crystal Palace
Transmitter, London), but I was perhaps being a bit pessimistic about the
bit rates I'm getting. My last 7 recording from BBC 1 HD were:

1.92 GB/hr
2.03 GB/hr
1.68 GB/hr
2.04 GB/hr
2.47 GB/hr
2.19 GB/hr
1.64 GB/hr

So about 2GB/hr average.

> But this thread is about broadcast and not streaming. I'm getting about
>> 2GBytes per hour from a Freeview HD tuner for BBC One. Your mileage will
>> vary, especially on the commercial muxes where channel numbers seem to be
>> more important than quality. Freeview uses stochastic compression to share
>> variable compression rates between all the channels in real time. Your
>> beautiful wildlife scenery panning shot might go lumpy if someone on the
>> jewellery channel starts throwing glitter around.
>>
>> CHeers,
>>
>> Tim.
>>
> I **was** talking about broadcast,
>
>
..but just noticed that the snippet from the BBC website I included was
not. No reason to suppose they apply the same standard to their broadcasts
I guess?

Getting back to a more local (Aust) flavour around James' original
question, here are some recordings I have for an HD channel.

File DateTime DateTime
BitRate
1013_20200706104000.ts 2020-07-06 2928127448 5 262 kb/s
1013_20200713104500.ts 2020-07-13 2984810764 5 241 kb/s
1013_20200720112500.ts 2020-07-20 2872417596 5 234 kb/s
1013_20200727110100.ts 2020-07-27 2928784320 5 247 kb/s
1013_20200914104800.ts 2020-09-14 3011864528 5 257 kb/s
1013_20200921104300.ts 2020-09-21 2951399592 4 922 kb/s
1013_20200928110400.ts 2020-09-28 2683765424 4 710 kb/s
1013_20201005094000.ts 2020-10-05 2751309312 4 848 kb/s
1013_20201012095000.ts 2020-10-12 2521826360 4 465 kb/s
1013_20201019094000.ts 2020-10-19 2618064876 4 653 kb/s
1013_20201026094000.ts 2020-10-26 2571144212 4 563 kb/s
1013_20201102093800.ts 2020-11-02 2657489416 4 731 kb/s

So, even in the short space of 4 months, the network have reduced the
bitrate for the same program, on the same channel.

Should be advertised as "HD" not HD. ;-)