Mailing List Archive

> I'm thinking something along the lines of mythtv releasing the video
> device and running an external script when it is not recording. The
> external script could tune to the channel with the listings, grab a video
> capture of the guide screen, ocr, parse the information, insert into
> database, have the cable box move to the next page, repeat.

Other than the absurdity of this (have you ever actually USED an ocr?
the good ones need 150+ dpi scans, and are marginal at best for
recognizing text. Or the fact that you can't decode a digital cable
signal on any computer tv card yet), this sort of defeats the purpose of
having weeks-in-advance program listings. Program listings would be
kind of silly if you only got them a few hours (or even a day) in
advance.

-Chris

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: mythtv-users-bounces@snowman.net
> [mailto:mythtv-users-bounces@snowman.net]On Behalf Of Dwight Hubbard
> (dhubbard)
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:03 AM
> To: Discussion about mythtv
> Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] Telly's Free Program Guide
>
>
> I would think it would be better to modify mythtv to get guide data from
> sources that were intended for the person using the mythtv box. I.E.
> getting the guide data directly from the program guide on the digital
> cable box, the cable networks tv guide channel or from vbi information in
> areas where television listings are sent in the vbi.
>
> I'm thinking something along the lines of mythtv releasing the video
> device and running an external script when it is not recording. The
> external script could tune to the channel with the listings, grab a video
> capture of the guide screen, ocr, parse the information, insert into
> database, have the cable box move to the next page, repeat. Of course
> mythtv would have to have some means of stopping the script from running
> and different scripts would be needed for different sat/cable boxes, but
> the listing format isn't likely to change and it would have the listings
> for the user of the mythtv box. I've thought about doing this, but I want
> to get the installer into a usable state before I look at tackling this.

The problem is, most of the sources you mentioned only yield information
about programs currently showing. At best you might get a day's worth. Not
very useful for scheduling. Also, the sources you suggest are all highly
specific to each cable/satellite/broadcast provider.

You've got a point in that we don't want to steal listing data... we need to
get it from a free/open source, or from a source that each individual Myth
user is authorized to use, which is why I've suggested a way to grab Tivo's
listings would be useful for those Myth'ers that also have a valid Tivo
subscription. Of course, it'd be nice to have a solution for the rest of
us, too, but so far we're all drawing a blank.

-JAC

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Regarding the VBI, I would just shit myself if I were able to do this.
Programs like AleVT are out there, and I wonder if the author would help
in this effort? Maybe a VBI grabber for xmltv. Now, for ivtv to get
support for it... :(

On Thu, 2003-07-17 at 10:02, Dwight Hubbard (dhubbard) wrote:
> I would think it would be better to modify mythtv to get guide data from
> sources that were intended for the person using the mythtv box. I.E.
> getting the guide data directly from the program guide on the digital
> cable box, the cable networks tv guide channel or from vbi information in
> areas where television listings are sent in the vbi.

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> You've got a point in that we don't want to steal listing data... we need to
> get it from a free/open source

So how long before someone figures out how to set up something like
freedb for tv listings? It's too bad that the program listing data is
so tightly controlled by people who DON'T want to share it.

-Chris

BTW, if you read your tivo subscription info, I'm pretty sure that it
says the info is licensed for that specific tivo box, and nothing else.
I haven't read the fine print, but that's the gist I got when I was
shopping for one (and decided to invest in myth instead). It would
still be "stealing."

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On Thu, 2003-07-17 at 11:06, Joseph A. Caputo wrote:
> > I would think it would be better to modify mythtv to get guide data from
> > sources that were intended for the person using the mythtv box. I.E.
> > getting the guide data directly from the program guide on the digital
> > cable box, the cable networks tv guide channel or from vbi information in
> > areas where television listings are sent in the vbi.
> The problem is, most of the sources you mentioned only yield information
> about programs currently showing. At best you might get a day's worth. Not
> very useful for scheduling. Also, the sources you suggest are all highly
> specific to each cable/satellite/broadcast provider.

VBI is not just one day... I can browse forward quite a way with mine.
Further, I would suspect VBI data is at very least only specific to
cable box vendor, i.e., scientific atlanta.

Even if the data were formatted differently per-region or provider, it's
consistent over time, unlike the shitty web tv listings changing
everything around like a bunch of fux.

> You've got a point in that we don't want to steal listing data... we need to
> get it from a free/open source, or from a source that each individual Myth
> user is authorized to use, which is why I've suggested a way to grab Tivo's
> listings would be useful for those Myth'ers that also have a valid Tivo
> subscription. Of course, it'd be nice to have a solution for the rest of
> us, too, but so far we're all drawing a blank.
>
> -JAC
>
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Ditto on the OCR, but the VBI idea is good, I think.

Check out http://www.goron.de/~froese/ where there is already a viewer
for /dev/vbi stuff.

On Thu, 2003-07-17 at 11:05, Chris Petersen wrote:
> > I'm thinking something along the lines of mythtv releasing the video
> > device and running an external script when it is not recording. The
> > external script could tune to the channel with the listings, grab a video
> > capture of the guide screen, ocr, parse the information, insert into
> > database, have the cable box move to the next page, repeat.
>
> Other than the absurdity of this (have you ever actually USED an ocr?
> the good ones need 150+ dpi scans, and are marginal at best for
> recognizing text. Or the fact that you can't decode a digital cable
> signal on any computer tv card yet), this sort of defeats the purpose of
> having weeks-in-advance program listings. Program listings would be
> kind of silly if you only got them a few hours (or even a day) in
> advance.
>
> -Chris
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users@snowman.net
> http://lists.snowman.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
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Search ebay. Series 1's for much cheaper than that I would have
thought..

On Thu, 2003-07-17 at 08:59, Joseph A. Caputo wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mythtv-users-bounces@snowman.net
> > [mailto:mythtv-users-bounces@snowman.net]On Behalf Of Lan Barnes
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 7:27 PM
> > To: Discussion about mythtv
> > Subject: Re: [mythtv-users] Telly's Free Program Guide
> >
> >
> > That _would_ be IP theft (of course, IANAL).
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 03:46:41PM -0500, Shawn wrote:
> > > Has anyone thought of getting an old TiVo Series 1 with a lifetime sub,
> > > and using it as some sort of guide data server?
> > >
> > > After that, would you not be able to server xmltv?
>
>
> Yes, but... it would be nice to find a way to do it, for those people that
> do have a Tivo subscription (lifetime or otherwise), it would not be IP
> theft for them to use the guide data for themselves. Even if the Tivo unit
> itself died, a lifetime subscription would still give you access to the
> guide data. Of course, I'm not going to plunk down USD$300 for a lifetime
> Tivo subscription (plus the hardware), but if I already had one I'd want to
> be able to use the data.
>
> -JAC
>
> _______________________________________________
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Honestly, though, the effect is that something is really only illegal in
so far as TiVo gives a shit.

The number of TiVo owners who would be grabbing data from their TiVo to
use for their MythTV boxen isn't going to bother TiVo folks.

On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 23:14, Ian Forde wrote:
> Wait a sec - if you've already got a Tivo, and you've got TivoWeb
> installed on it, you should be able to get the listings using something
> like wget thus creating a mythfilldatabasefrommytivo sort of thing...
> Thus, I would be using my Tivo Guide listings on both my Tivo (which I
> legally own) and my MythTV (which I also legally own). The fact that
> Tivo charges for separate licenses per Tivo shouldn't really apply,
> right? But then again, IANAL.
>
> -I
>
> On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 16:26, Lan Barnes wrote:
> > That _would_ be IP theft (of course, IANAL).
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 03:46:41PM -0500, Shawn wrote:
> > > Has anyone thought of getting an old TiVo Series 1 with a lifetime sub,
> > > and using it as some sort of guide data server?
> > >
> > > After that, would you not be able to server xmltv?
> > >
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: mythtv-users-bounces@snowman.net
> [mailto:mythtv-users-bounces@snowman.net]On Behalf Of Shawn
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 12:56 PM
> To: Discussion about mythtv
> Subject: RE: [mythtv-users] Telly's Free Program Guide
>
>
> Search ebay. Series 1's for much cheaper than that I would have
> thought..
>
> On Thu, 2003-07-17 at 08:59, Joseph A. Caputo wrote:
> > Of course, I'm not going to plunk down USD$300 for
> > a lifetime
> > Tivo subscription (plus the hardware)

Yeah, but you still have to buy the subscription, even if you can get the
Tivo hardware for cheap or free. The lifetime subscription costs $299 above
the base hardware price, and although it's transferable with the unit, I
doubt you'd see a unit WITH lifetime subscription for sale all that cheap.

-JAC

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: mythtv-users-bounces@snowman.net
> [mailto:mythtv-users-bounces@snowman.net]On Behalf Of Chris Petersen
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 12:51 PM
> To: Discussion about mythtv
> Subject: RE: [mythtv-users] Telly's Free Program Guide
>
>
> So how long before someone figures out how to set up something like
> freedb for tv listings? It's too bad that the program listing data is
> so tightly controlled by people who DON'T want to share it.

The problem is that, unlike freedb data, tv listing data needs to be updated
frequently. However, what would probably be OK would be to establish a free
clearing house of listing data, into which people could contribute their
local listings. The problem, of course, remains as to how to get the
listings in a suitable format... you'd need an xmltv grabber for every
provider, or worse...

>
> -Chris
>
> BTW, if you read your tivo subscription info, I'm pretty sure that it
> says the info is licensed for that specific tivo box, and nothing else.
> I haven't read the fine print, but that's the gist I got when I was
> shopping for one (and decided to invest in myth instead). It would
> still be "stealing."

Well, the license to retrieve the info is per Tivo unit, but once the data
is downloaded to your unit, they can't tell you what to do with it. You
could definitely argue that it's 'fair use' to extract the listing data from
your Tivo box. Whether you wanted to import it into Myth, print it out,
wallpaper your house with it or write it on a grain of rice, nobody can stop
you. Heck, nobody would even know. The snag is, while it might be OK for
you to use the data for your own personal uses (as long as you didn't
redistribute it), the actual development of a tool to extract it might run
afoul of the DMCA.

-JAC

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Don't know what it'll sell for in the end, but Series 1 is what you
want,; I don't know why folks are selling them.

Phillips TIVO 30 Hr HDR 312 w/Lifetime $152.50
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3035405009&category=11725

On Thu, 2003-07-17 at 15:40, Joseph A. Caputo wrote:
> Yeah, but you still have to buy the subscription, even if you can get the
> Tivo hardware for cheap or free. The lifetime subscription costs $299 above
> the base hardware price, and although it's transferable with the unit, I
> doubt you'd see a unit WITH lifetime subscription for sale all that cheap.

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I shouldn't at all. Fact of the matter is that Tivo shouldn't be able
to tell, since it wouldn't be accessing their resources. And since I
own the Tivo, and am not distributing the data I paid for, it should
come under "fair use", right? (IANAL)

-I

On Thu, 2003-07-17 at 12:06, Shawn wrote:
> Honestly, though, the effect is that something is really only illegal in
> so far as TiVo gives a shit.
>
> The number of TiVo owners who would be grabbing data from their TiVo to
> use for their MythTV boxen isn't going to bother TiVo folks.
>
> On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 23:14, Ian Forde wrote:
> > Wait a sec - if you've already got a Tivo, and you've got TivoWeb
> > installed on it, you should be able to get the listings using something
> > like wget thus creating a mythfilldatabasefrommytivo sort of thing...
> > Thus, I would be using my Tivo Guide listings on both my Tivo (which I
> > legally own) and my MythTV (which I also legally own). The fact that
> > Tivo charges for separate licenses per Tivo shouldn't really apply,
> > right? But then again, IANAL.
> >
> > -I
> >
> > On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 16:26, Lan Barnes wrote:
> > > That _would_ be IP theft (of course, IANAL).
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 03:46:41PM -0500, Shawn wrote:
> > > > Has anyone thought of getting an old TiVo Series 1 with a lifetime sub,
> > > > and using it as some sort of guide data server?
> > > >
> > > > After that, would you not be able to server xmltv?
> > > >
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users@snowman.net
> http://lists.snowman.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
--
__________________________________
Ian Forde, RHCE, CCSE, SCNA, SCDME
CYTBeN, Inc.
ian@duckland.org / ian@cytben.com

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I don't know, I've had my PPP start script OCRing an image of my secureid
card before and the resolution of the camera is nowhere near 150dpi.

Not to mention the resulting image captured should have no rotation and
the positioning should be close enough to actually grab individual letters
off the capture. I'm thinking a variation of the OCR used for handwriting
recognition by handhelds like the zaurus could OCR the characters then.

BTW, I'm not talking about using a digital cable card, I'm talking about
doing a video capture of the TV guide screen of my Dishnetwork 301 sat-tv
box connected to my bttv card. I will have to check how far out the
listings on it go, but I think it does normally have more than a days
listings. But then even a days listings would be plenty if you primarily
use the mythtv box to record all showings of a particular program.

It would be really nice if the listing data was sent as VBI but as far as
I can tell that doesn't happen where I am :-(

>> I'm thinking something along the lines of mythtv releasing the video
>> device and running an external script when it is not recording. The
>> external script could tune to the channel with the listings, grab a
>> video
>> capture of the guide screen, ocr, parse the information, insert into
>> database, have the cable box move to the next page, repeat.
>
> Other than the absurdity of this (have you ever actually USED an ocr?
> the good ones need 150+ dpi scans, and are marginal at best for
> recognizing text. Or the fact that you can't decode a digital cable
> signal on any computer tv card yet), this sort of defeats the purpose of
> having weeks-in-advance program listings. Program listings would be
> kind of silly if you only got them a few hours (or even a day) in
> advance.

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On Thu, 2003-07-17 at 14:00, Joseph A. Caputo wrote:
> Well, the license to retrieve the info is per Tivo unit, but once the data
> is downloaded to your unit, they can't tell you what to do with it. You
> could definitely argue that it's 'fair use' to extract the listing data from
> your Tivo box. Whether you wanted to import it into Myth, print it out,
> wallpaper your house with it or write it on a grain of rice, nobody can stop
> you. Heck, nobody would even know. The snag is, while it might be OK for
> you to use the data for your own personal uses (as long as you didn't
> redistribute it), the actual development of a tool to extract it might run
> afoul of the DMCA.

Agreed on the first part. The second, IMHO, would be a far less
controversial step than the current MythDVD module under development. ;)

-I
--
__________________________________
Ian Forde, RHCE, CCSE, SCNA, SCDME
CYTBeN, Inc.
ian@duckland.org / ian@cytben.com

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Maybe it's a bit off subject but I've been writing my own program guide
pull from directv site since it has all the ppv infos there. It's still
on early stage and needs a lot of refinement. I ran it manually after
mythfilldatabase.

I've been also meaning to put a ppv buy program logic into the directv
box changechannel program.

If anybody has suggestion and interested with the program let me know.


Thanks,
-Leo

--
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mailto:beol@laksmana.net
http://www.laksmana.net/
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Theres a few words on the telly on wired today, not a full review tho
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,59690,00.html

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph A. Caputo" <jcaputo1@comcast.net>
To: "Discussion about mythtv" <mythtv-users@snowman.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 9:40 PM
Subject: RE: [mythtv-users] Telly's Free Program Guide


> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mythtv-users-bounces@snowman.net
> > [mailto:mythtv-users-bounces@snowman.net]On Behalf Of Shawn
> > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 12:56 PM
> > To: Discussion about mythtv
> > Subject: RE: [mythtv-users] Telly's Free Program Guide
> >
> >
> > Search ebay. Series 1's for much cheaper than that I would have
> > thought..
> >
> > On Thu, 2003-07-17 at 08:59, Joseph A. Caputo wrote:
> > > Of course, I'm not going to plunk down USD$300 for
> > > a lifetime
> > > Tivo subscription (plus the hardware)
>
> Yeah, but you still have to buy the subscription, even if you can get the
> Tivo hardware for cheap or free. The lifetime subscription costs $299
above
> the base hardware price, and although it's transferable with the unit, I
> doubt you'd see a unit WITH lifetime subscription for sale all that cheap.
>
> -JAC
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users@snowman.net
> http://lists.snowman.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

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