Mailing List Archive

Rob Case wrote:

>
> I have read with the PVR250 you do not need a sound card.. is this
> true? Will on board sound hurt my performance?

You don't need a soundcard to record, but you do need one to playback or
watch live tv.

I wouldn't think using on board sound would cause that much of a
performance loss.

You might try killing KDE's soundserver (artsd, I think). That might be
interfering with sound from myth.

Rob Case wrote:
> Ok so I started out this weekend with the goal of setting up a MythTV
> box before the weekend was over.. sleep was not an option :)
>
> I started out where I left off last week.. RH9/PVR-250/SB Live!
>
> Jarod Wilson sent me his HOWTO and was readily available this weekend
> for fielding questions. I made it through numerous (20+) reinstalls with
> all of them ending the same way. (I don't blame the instructions, but
> rather my setup)

I assure you, with no reservations, that Jarod Wilson's
notes are not the authoritative information needed to install
MythTV. There is no mention in your message of following the
documentation that is provided with MythTV. Therefore, I'm not
surprised that you had problems.

I setup a PVR-250 for the first time earlier this week and
followed the MythTV HOWTO. I expected to give feedback but
I had it working in less than an hour without a hitch.

If you do follow the documentation and find that the information
is incomplete, confusing, or wrong, please send your suggestions
so the the documentation needed for all MythTV users can be
improved.

> mythbackend, mythfrontend both loaded. Was able to setup scheduling and
> tweak all the settings via the frontend. Selecting "Watch TV" would
> lock the front end up.

Had you tested and verified that the ivtv driver is installed
correctly and functioning properly?

http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-19.html#ss19.10

The common test is to "cat /dev/video > test.mpg" then play
the file with an MPEG player. You should see and hear the
test recording correctly before going on to setup MythTV.

When you do run "setup" for MythTV, one common problem is
that in part 2 of setup, you need to make sure you choose
Card type: "Hardware MPEG Encoder card".

> The sound worked prior to adding ALSA. Once ALSA was added I could not
> play any sounds but the test sound in KDE played while producing errors.
> (SB Live!)

http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-18.html#ss18.11

> So tiring of the 3 Disk reinstalls and 1 hour+ idle time I decided to
> try my luck at Slackware 9 using one of the guides from
> http://pvrhw.goldfish.org
>
> After failing several times I decided to journey into the unknown and
> try Debian. Until tonight I had never tried Debian. I love it!
> Unfortunately I got hung up on the sound again! And my PVR-250 doesn't
> like bttv.

A PVR-250 needs the ivtv driver, not bttv.

> ...So I tried to download the ALSA source and compile the
> drivers based on the SB Live! Alsa-project.org instructions and had even
> more issues.
>
> I have read with the PVR250 you do not need a sound card.. is this true?
> Will on board sound hurt my performance?

There are two independent functions for /dev/dsp ; writing
to create digitized data from an analog input and reading
to convert digital data and send an analog signal to your
speakers.

A PVR-250 digitizes the audio and multiplexes the audio in
the stream read from /dev/video. Therefore, your mythbackend
does not need to be able to write to /dev/dsp to record audio.
However, your mythfrontend does need to read from /dev/dsp to
hear the sound on playback. If you have the Master and PCM
unmuted and the volume up and can hear a test file with, say:

aplay /usr/share/sounds/KDE_Startup.wav

then you should be all set.

-- bjm

On Monday, Jun 9, Bruce Markey wrote:

> Rob Case wrote:
>> Ok so I started out this weekend with the goal of setting up a MythTV
>> box before the weekend was over.. sleep was not an option :)
>> I started out where I left off last week.. RH9/PVR-250/SB Live!
>> Jarod Wilson sent me his HOWTO and was readily available this weekend
>> for fielding questions. I made it through numerous (20+) reinstalls
>> with all of them ending the same way. (I don't blame the
>> instructions, but rather my setup)
>
> I assure you, with no reservations, that Jarod Wilson's
> notes are not the authoritative information needed to install
> MythTV.

And I assure you that my notes are far better for someone attempting to
install MythTV under Red Hat Linux 9 with a WinTV PVR-250 than the
documentation on the MythTV web site, even if they aren't
"authoritative."

> There is no mention in your message of following the
> documentation that is provided with MythTV. Therefore, I'm not
> surprised that you had problems.

Have you actually read all of both my docs and all of the official
docs? In the official docs, there is no mention of RHL9 whatsoever, and
only a little bit on installing ivtv. It includes very little about how
to configure the card after you install the drivers (nothing about
setting resolution, specifying input, fixing ghosted images, or
anything about the remote). There is nothing about getting lirc from
CVS to support the grey remote. And so on. By the way, much of my
initial information actually did come from the official site, and was
then enhanced/customized for RHL9 and a PVR-250.

> I setup a PVR-250 for the first time earlier this week and
> followed the MythTV HOWTO. I expected to give feedback but
> I had it working in less than an hour without a hitch.

Are you claiming that starting from scratch, you installed everything
and had it all working in under an hour? I'm highly dubious as to the
validity of that claim... I'd understand if you were just adding a
PVR-250 to an already Mythtified box...

> If you do follow the documentation and find that the information
> is incomplete, confusing, or wrong, please send your suggestions
> so the the documentation needed for all MythTV users can be
> improved.

Guess what? I've already sent an email to Robert, requesting that at
least part of my info be incorporated, because I feel the official docs
are VERY lacking in several areas, particularly with respect to RHL9
and the PVR-250.

>> mythbackend, mythfrontend both loaded. Was able to setup scheduling
>> and tweak all the settings via the frontend. Selecting "Watch TV"
>> would lock the front end up.
>
> Had you tested and verified that the ivtv driver is installed
> correctly and functioning properly?
>
> http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-19.html#ss19.10
>
> The common test is to "cat /dev/video > test.mpg" then play
> the file with an MPEG player. You should see and hear the
> test recording correctly before going on to setup MythTV.

Yeah, that's mentioned in my docs also.

> When you do run "setup" for MythTV, one common problem is
> that in part 2 of setup, you need to make sure you choose
> Card type: "Hardware MPEG Encoder card".

Now I did forget to explicitly mention that. I'm adding that to my
docs. :) There's a good chance that may have been one of Rob's problems
(sorry, Rob!).

>> The sound worked prior to adding ALSA. Once ALSA was added I could
>> not play any sounds but the test sound in KDE played while producing
>> errors. (SB Live!)
>
> http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-18.html#ss18.11

Didn't know until looking at that again that you (Bruce) are an
"official" documenter.

>> So tiring of the 3 Disk reinstalls and 1 hour+ idle time

NFS installs rock. No disc swapping, and actually faster on a 100Mb
network... But that assumes you also have an NFS server floating about.
:)

>> I have read with the PVR250 you do not need a sound card.. is this
>> true? Will on board sound hurt my performance?
>
> A PVR-250 digitizes the audio and multiplexes the audio in
> the stream read from /dev/video. Therefore, your mythbackend
> does not need to be able to write to /dev/dsp to record audio.
> However, your mythfrontend does need to read from /dev/dsp to
> hear the sound on playback. If you have the Master and PCM
> unmuted and the volume up and can hear a test file with, say:
>
> aplay /usr/share/sounds/KDE_Startup.wav
>
> then you should be all set.

You can actually do without even bothering with ALSA if you like. It
isn't really absolutely necessary in many cases. I actually had my
system working fine just using OSS before I installed ALSA. Some people
have had problems with audio sync using OSS though, if I recall
correctly, but it worked fine for me (definitely easier to set up,
since it is the sound system Red Hat ships with). I do prefer ALSA
though, and it works peachy on my system.

We'll see if we can't make some of my doc official, because I assure
you that at least in some areas, it is far superior to what is
currently called official. For those who missed it, or haven't read it
at all yet (Bruce?), here it is:

http://pvrhw.goldfish.org/tiki-page.php?pageName=rh9pvr250

It's not "official", but I assure you the content is good. ;)

Yours in sleep deprivation,
-jcw

Bruce:

I can assure you that Jarod's detailed instructions are far better than
any "authoritative" information out there.

I base my opinion on first hand knowledge.



--


Bruce Markey said:
> Rob Case wrote:
>> Ok so I started out this weekend with the goal of setting up a MythTV
>> box before the weekend was over.. sleep was not an option :)
>>
>> I started out where I left off last week.. RH9/PVR-250/SB Live!
>>
>> Jarod Wilson sent me his HOWTO and was readily available this weekend
>> for fielding questions. I made it through numerous (20+) reinstalls with
>> all of them ending the same way. (I don't blame the instructions, but
>> rather my setup)
>
> I assure you, with no reservations, that Jarod Wilson's
> notes are not the authoritative information needed to install
> MythTV. There is no mention in your message of following the
> documentation that is provided with MythTV. Therefore, I'm not
> surprised that you had problems.
>
> I setup a PVR-250 for the first time earlier this week and
> followed the MythTV HOWTO. I expected to give feedback but
> I had it working in less than an hour without a hitch.
>
> If you do follow the documentation and find that the information
> is incomplete, confusing, or wrong, please send your suggestions
> so the the documentation needed for all MythTV users can be
> improved.
>
>> mythbackend, mythfrontend both loaded. Was able to setup scheduling and
>> tweak all the settings via the frontend. Selecting "Watch TV" would
>> lock the front end up.
>
> Had you tested and verified that the ivtv driver is installed
> correctly and functioning properly?
>
> http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-19.html#ss19.10
>
> The common test is to "cat /dev/video > test.mpg" then play
> the file with an MPEG player. You should see and hear the
> test recording correctly before going on to setup MythTV.
>
> When you do run "setup" for MythTV, one common problem is
> that in part 2 of setup, you need to make sure you choose
> Card type: "Hardware MPEG Encoder card".
>
>> The sound worked prior to adding ALSA. Once ALSA was added I could not
>> play any sounds but the test sound in KDE played while producing errors.
>> (SB Live!)
>
> http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-18.html#ss18.11
>
>> So tiring of the 3 Disk reinstalls and 1 hour+ idle time I decided to
>> try my luck at Slackware 9 using one of the guides from
>> http://pvrhw.goldfish.org
>>
>> After failing several times I decided to journey into the unknown and
>> try Debian. Until tonight I had never tried Debian. I love it!
>> Unfortunately I got hung up on the sound again! And my PVR-250 doesn't
>> like bttv.
>
> A PVR-250 needs the ivtv driver, not bttv.
>
>> ...So I tried to download the ALSA source and compile the
>> drivers based on the SB Live! Alsa-project.org instructions and had even
>> more issues.
>>
>> I have read with the PVR250 you do not need a sound card.. is this true?
>> Will on board sound hurt my performance?
>
> There are two independent functions for /dev/dsp ; writing
> to create digitized data from an analog input and reading
> to convert digital data and send an analog signal to your
> speakers.
>
> A PVR-250 digitizes the audio and multiplexes the audio in
> the stream read from /dev/video. Therefore, your mythbackend
> does not need to be able to write to /dev/dsp to record audio.
> However, your mythfrontend does need to read from /dev/dsp to
> hear the sound on playback. If you have the Master and PCM
> unmuted and the volume up and can hear a test file with, say:
>
> aplay /usr/share/sounds/KDE_Startup.wav
>
> then you should be all set.
>
> -- bjm
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users@snowman.net
> http://lists.snowman.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>

>I assure you, with no reservations, that Jarod Wilson's
>notes are not the authoritative information needed to install
>MythTV. There is no mention in your message of following the
>documentation that is provided with MythTV. Therefore, I'm not
>surprised that you had problems.
The "official" documentation is useless for RH9 users. It is also very
lacking. Several steps are assumed which makes this guide not newbie
friendly. I cannot give specifics because I have not used it since last
week.

>If you do follow the documentation and find that the information
>is incomplete, confusing, or wrong, please send your suggestions
>so the the documentation needed for all MythTV users can be
>improved.
Unfortunately I have moved onto spcefic HOWTO's for my setup. Plus if I knew
what was missing or needed I wouldn't need the guide in the first place :)
>
>Had you tested and verified that the ivtv driver is installed
>correctly and functioning properly?
Yes... I have had it working

>The common test is to "cat /dev/video > test.mpg" then play
>the file with an MPEG player. You should see and hear the
>test recording correctly before going on to setup MythTV.
Yes.

>When you do run "setup" for MythTV, one common problem is
>that in part 2 of setup, you need to make sure you choose
>Card type: "Hardware MPEG Encoder card".
Doesn't sound familiar. Will check that next time I install.


>http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-18.html#ss18.11
Been there... the "official" guide is no where near "comprehensive".

>A PVR-250 needs the ivtv driver, not bttv.
I am aware just pointing out my hiccups. Getting ivtv to work was an issue
as well.

>There are two independent functions for /dev/dsp ; writing
>to create digitized data from an analog input and reading
>to convert digital data and send an analog signal to your
>speakers.
>
>A PVR-250 digitizes the audio and multiplexes the audio in
>the stream read from /dev/video. Therefore, your mythbackend
>does not need to be able to write to /dev/dsp to record audio.
>However, your mythfrontend does need to read from /dev/dsp to
>hear the sound on playback. If you have the Master and PCM
>unmuted and the volume up and can hear a test file with, say:
>
> aplay /usr/share/sounds/KDE_Startup.wav
>
>then you should be all set.

aplay fails. because installing the ALSA package broke my sound.

I am going to make another attempt with RH9 since Jarod is still updating
the document and making an effort...

Thank you all for the replies.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

>
> You can actually do without even bothering with ALSA if you like. It
> isn't really absolutely necessary in many cases. I actually had my
> system working fine just using OSS before I installed ALSA. Some
> people have had problems with audio sync using OSS though, if I recall
> correctly, but it worked fine for me (definitely easier to set up,
> since it is the sound system Red Hat ships with). I do prefer ALSA
> though, and it works peachy on my system.
>
> We'll see if we can't make some of my doc official, because I assure
> you that at least in some areas, it is far superior to what is
> currently called official. For those who missed it, or haven't read it
> at all yet (Bruce?), here it is:
>
> http://pvrhw.goldfish.org/tiki-page.php?pageName=rh9pvr250
>
> It's not "official", but I assure you the content is good. ;)


Good list, looks a lot like the list a friend and I were making for
MythTV on VIA M-10000 running RH9.
I'm missing one thing though, it's the extraction of the firmware from
the Windows driver installation.
For me that was absolutely necessary, not only that but it had to be the
latest from their website, NOT the one from the CD!

The information on this page made me realize that:
http://itx.lincomatic.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=15

> Yours in sleep deprivation,


I hear you ;-)

I hope MythTV will in the end be as easy to install as Freevo because if
it wasn't for the features and the feeling (without looking at the code,
but just this gut feeling) that MythTV is somehow superiour in design I
would have given up long ago. To compare: I had Freevo running in half a
day, with MythTV I'm in my second week and still not everything is working.
Don't get me wrong MythTV developers, I'm enjoying the experience!
(although not always at 3 in the night when nothing wants to work hehe).

One thing I do like about Freevo is that it can run without using X
making possible an even more minimalistic install which is nice for the
kind of set-top box that I'm making.

-Tako

>
> -jcw
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users@snowman.net
> http://lists.snowman.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Actually, I think he is correct (at least on the Lirc point you raise).
Lirc uses its own modules. So the reason for recompiling the kernel is to
include the Lirc modules and load them BEFORE the serial modules are
loaded. That seems to be consistent with what Jarod states. I dont
believe he suggested that Lirc uses the serial modules.

Jarod states "change "Standard/generic (8250/16550 and compatible UARTs)
serial support" from "y" to "m", so that lirc loads modules, rather than
being compiled straight into the kernel"

Although he does state "(we're going to be using some modules newer than
those compiled in the kernel)." That statement may not be 100% correct.
Since Lirc is not included as a module.

--


Isaac Richards said:
> On Monday 09 June 2003 07:26 am, Jarod C. Wilson wrote:
>> And I assure you that my notes are far better for someone attempting to
>> install MythTV under Red Hat Linux 9 with a WinTV PVR-250 than the
>> documentation on the MythTV web site, even if they aren't
>> "authoritative."
>
> You have a number of inaccuracies in your docs, btw.
>
> - ALSA is not required at all for things to run, there's no reason to make
> it
> look like it is. The only reason that it's recommended for most setups is
> that the drivers generally work better than the kernel drivers.
> - Using lirc on the pvr cards does not use the serial modules, so your
> stated
> reason for forcing a recompile of the kernel is wrong.
> - A better bitrate peak would be 4000, not 8000, for an average rate of
> 2500.
> Having the peak bitrate too high can cause problems.
> - If you don't want it to capture at 480x480, why don't you just go into
> the
> recording options and change the resolution there? Also, if you're going
> to
> tell people to blindly change to NTSC and the 4th input on the card, you
> should at least show how to get the correct numbers for those by using the
> querying commands (-n to list the inputs, -s to list the video standards).
>
> Also, I would very much prefer that you submit patches to the existing
> docs to
> Robert, instead of writing your own.
>
> Isaac
>
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users@snowman.net
> http://lists.snowman.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>

On Monday 09 June 2003 07:26 am, Jarod C. Wilson wrote:
> And I assure you that my notes are far better for someone attempting to
> install MythTV under Red Hat Linux 9 with a WinTV PVR-250 than the
> documentation on the MythTV web site, even if they aren't
> "authoritative."

You have a number of inaccuracies in your docs, btw.

- ALSA is not required at all for things to run, there's no reason to make it
look like it is. The only reason that it's recommended for most setups is
that the drivers generally work better than the kernel drivers.
- Using lirc on the pvr cards does not use the serial modules, so your stated
reason for forcing a recompile of the kernel is wrong.
- A better bitrate peak would be 4000, not 8000, for an average rate of 2500.
Having the peak bitrate too high can cause problems.
- If you don't want it to capture at 480x480, why don't you just go into the
recording options and change the resolution there? Also, if you're going to
tell people to blindly change to NTSC and the 4th input on the card, you
should at least show how to get the correct numbers for those by using the
querying commands (-n to list the inputs, -s to list the video standards).

Also, I would very much prefer that you submit patches to the existing docs to
Robert, instead of writing your own.

Isaac

Dont' forget you own comments Isaac ;-)

<quote>

> System is a VIA M-10000 running RedHat 9, all Myth stuff comes from
> yesterday's CVS (but the problem was the same with 0.8, in fact it was
> the reason to try the CVS version).
>

The kernel driver for the audio on those boards is broken. You need to
use latest ALSA, with the 'dxs_support=3' option when you load the
snd-via82xx module, to get things to work properly.

</quote>

So sometimes it *is* necessary.

Only teasing Isaac :-)

I agree with you that having one good document that explains everything
to everybody is what we should aim for, but you know yourself that
posting patches to the docs won't necessarily mean that they will be
changed the next hour or so, while at the same moment complete tribes of
people are trying out the software and having lots of problems. And I
for myself can vouch for the problems I have encountered because of
wrong or unclear documentation. So these pages by third parties are
necessary to get everything to work. The help of people on this lists
notwithstanding I would not have been able to get MythTV to the point it
is now (still no Live TV though ;-) without the help of several such pages.

I also agree that these pages themselves will have problems, but in the
end the most important thing is to have options to try out when things
just don't want to work.

My 2c.

Cheers,
-Tako



Isaac Richards wrote:

>On Monday 09 June 2003 07:26 am, Jarod C. Wilson wrote:
>
>
>>And I assure you that my notes are far better for someone attempting to
>>install MythTV under Red Hat Linux 9 with a WinTV PVR-250 than the
>>documentation on the MythTV web site, even if they aren't
>>"authoritative."
>>
>>
>
>You have a number of inaccuracies in your docs, btw.
>
>- ALSA is not required at all for things to run, there's no reason to make it
>look like it is. The only reason that it's recommended for most setups is
>that the drivers generally work better than the kernel drivers.
>- Using lirc on the pvr cards does not use the serial modules, so your stated
>reason for forcing a recompile of the kernel is wrong.
>- A better bitrate peak would be 4000, not 8000, for an average rate of 2500.
>Having the peak bitrate too high can cause problems.
>- If you don't want it to capture at 480x480, why don't you just go into the
>recording options and change the resolution there? Also, if you're going to
>tell people to blindly change to NTSC and the 4th input on the card, you
>should at least show how to get the correct numbers for those by using the
>querying commands (-n to list the inputs, -s to list the video standards).
>
>Also, I would very much prefer that you submit patches to the existing docs to
>Robert, instead of writing your own.
>
>Isaac
>
>_______________________________________________
>mythtv-users mailing list
>mythtv-users@snowman.net
>http://lists.snowman.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
>

Isaac Richards wrote:

>On Monday 09 June 2003 07:26 am, Jarod C. Wilson wrote:
>
>
>>And I assure you that my notes are far better for someone attempting to
>>install MythTV under Red Hat Linux 9 with a WinTV PVR-250 than the
>>documentation on the MythTV web site, even if they aren't
>>"authoritative."
>>
>>
>You have a number of inaccuracies in your docs, btw.
>
>
lets try and correct them, in addition to pointing them out.

>- ALSA is not required at all for things to run, there's no reason to make it
>look like it is. The only reason that it's recommended for most setups is
>that the drivers generally work better than the kernel drivers.
>
alsa is better for non pvr-250 and non btaudio installations only,
right? in other words, when you need to use the sound card in full
duplex mode, and perhaps in some special cases where the kernel audio
has problems (like VIA M-10000)?

>- Using lirc on the pvr cards does not use the serial modules, so your stated
>reason for forcing a recompile of the kernel is wrong.
>
lirc on the pvr uses the i2c interface, and that's the reason for
possibly needing to recompile, right? but if you had a recent kernel,
then it might not be necessary. the i2c and the v4l(2) stuff are whats
important for the kernl, is this correct?

>- A better bitrate peak would be 4000, not 8000, for an average rate of 2500.
>Having the peak bitrate too high can cause problems.
>
well, this is certainly not always the case. if i drop the bitrate
below an average of about 5Mbps, i get choppy audio and video. now that
i've patch mplayer, i should test to see if it is just myth, or the
actual recording thats the problem.

>- If you don't want it to capture at 480x480, why don't you just go into the
>recording options and change the resolution there? Also, if you're going to
>tell people to blindly change to NTSC and the 4th input on the card, you
>should at least show how to get the correct numbers for those by using the
>querying commands (-n to list the inputs, -s to list the video standards).
>
this is certainly the right way to do this.

>Also, I would very much prefer that you submit patches to the existing docs to
>Robert, instead of writing your own.
>
normally, this is how this starts. someome takes something and does a
good job of it, then it can get submitted and hopefully included. by
and large, these howtos start out as 'this is what i had to do' and
grows from there.

cheers,

CraigL->Thx();

On Monday 09 June 2003 10:47 am, Matt wrote:
> Actually, I think he is correct (at least on the Lirc point you raise).
> Lirc uses its own modules. So the reason for recompiling the kernel is to
> include the Lirc modules and load them BEFORE the serial modules are
> loaded. That seems to be consistent with what Jarod states. I dont
> believe he suggested that Lirc uses the serial modules.
>
> Jarod states "change "Standard/generic (8250/16550 and compatible UARTs)
> serial support" from "y" to "m", so that lirc loads modules, rather than
> being compiled straight into the kernel"

It doesn't matter -- none of the modules that lirc uses for the hauppauge
cards conflicts with the serial port support in the kernel. A serial port IR
receiver, however, would probably require that change.

Isaac

On Monday 09 June 2003 11:45 am, Craig Longman wrote:
> >- ALSA is not required at all for things to run, there's no reason to make
> > it look like it is. The only reason that it's recommended for most
> > setups is that the drivers generally work better than the kernel drivers.
>
> alsa is better for non pvr-250 and non btaudio installations only,
> right? in other words, when you need to use the sound card in full
> duplex mode, and perhaps in some special cases where the kernel audio
> has problems (like VIA M-10000)?

Pretty much, yes.

> >- Using lirc on the pvr cards does not use the serial modules, so your
> > stated reason for forcing a recompile of the kernel is wrong.
>
> lirc on the pvr uses the i2c interface, and that's the reason for
> possibly needing to recompile, right? but if you had a recent kernel,
> then it might not be necessary. the i2c and the v4l(2) stuff are whats
> important for the kernl, is this correct?

Nope. Kernel should have a new enough version of i2c, and it should have v4l
already compiled. Don't need v4l2 in the kernel for the ivtv driver, so
everything should be just fine with the stock kernel.

> >- A better bitrate peak would be 4000, not 8000, for an average rate of
> > 2500. Having the peak bitrate too high can cause problems.
>
> well, this is certainly not always the case. if i drop the bitrate
> below an average of about 5Mbps, i get choppy audio and video. now that
> i've patch mplayer, i should test to see if it is just myth, or the
> actual recording thats the problem.

We're talking peak bitrate here, not average -- he's already recommended
dropping the average bitrate down to 2.5Mbps, which wouldn't work for you as
you've said.

> >Also, I would very much prefer that you submit patches to the existing
> > docs to Robert, instead of writing your own.
>
> normally, this is how this starts. someome takes something and does a
> good job of it, then it can get submitted and hopefully included. by
> and large, these howtos start out as 'this is what i had to do' and
> grows from there.

The reason the official docs don't have much info on redhat 9 stuff is because
I'm pretty sure that no one's bothered to submit anything to Robert.

Thing is, I have some control over what's in the official howto. I can
guarantee that, for the most part, it's right. I can't do that for random
people's instructions.

Isaac

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> Guess what? I've already sent an email to Robert, requesting that
> at least part of my info be incorporated, because I feel the
> official docs are VERY lacking in several areas, particularly with
> respect to RHL9 and the PVR-250.

I have no record of receiving an email from you. Did you send it to
the address in the HOWTO?

I concur that there's not a lot of RH9 information; I haven't had
anyone submit anything for Red Hat 9 other than a few drips and
drabs. Cedar created documentation for RH 8 and that's about it.

As far as the PVR-250 is concerned, it's an _alpha_ driver and it's a
moving target. If you look through MythTV CVS you'll see that the
PVR section used to be longer, but until the ivtv project settles
down it's going to be hard to have a lot of information in there,
which is why specific PVR-250 issues are best addressed at the ivtv
mailing list and FAQ, not the MythTV HOWTO. This isn't to say that
I'm not willing to add information about the RH9 install and more
information about getting the PVR250 to work with RH9 though, but I
still think that most of the effort of getting the PVR250 operational
should be directed to the ivtv list and documentation.

If someone wants to be the maintainer of record for RH9 in the HOWTO,
please step forward and contact me through the email address in the
HOWTO. I'd prefer that the current "flow" of the HOWTO be followed
as much as possible.

Thanks, Bob


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Isaac Richards wrote:

>>lirc on the pvr uses the i2c interface, and that's the reason for
>>possibly needing to recompile, right? but if you had a recent kernel,
>>then it might not be necessary. the i2c and the v4l(2) stuff are whats
>>important for the kernl, is this correct?
>>
>>
>Nope. Kernel should have a new enough version of i2c, and it should have v4l
>already compiled. Don't need v4l2 in the kernel for the ivtv driver, so
>everything should be just fine with the stock kernel.
>
hmm. i could have sworn i remember reading something when i was first
setting up that indicated you needed some i2c enhancements that were
only available in more recent kernels (2.4.19+ is what i think i
remember). now, i actually run debian, so maybe the stable was too old,
but testing (and redhat 9) are recent enough.

>>> A better bitrate peak would be 4000, not 8000, for an average rate of
>>>2500. Having the peak bitrate too high can cause problems.
>>>
>>>
>>well, this is certainly not always the case. if i drop the bitrate
>>below an average of about 5Mbps, i get choppy audio and video. now that
>>i've patch mplayer, i should test to see if it is just myth, or the
>>actual recording thats the problem.
>>
>>
>We're talking peak bitrate here, not average -- he's already recommended
>dropping the average bitrate down to 2.5Mbps, which wouldn't work for you as
>you've said.
>
ahh, i see what you meant there, i misunderstood what jarod had written.
sorry.

cheers,

CraigL->Thx();

On Monday, Jun 9, Isaac Richards wrote:

> You have a number of inaccuracies in your docs, btw.

I do appreciate that being pointed out, especially by the fearless
leader!

> - ALSA is not required at all for things to run, there's no reason to
> make it
> look like it is. The only reason that it's recommended for most
> setups is
> that the drivers generally work better than the kernel drivers.

I know, and I've actually already added a comment to that effect in the
latest (not yet posted) version of what I've been working on.

> - Using lirc on the pvr cards does not use the serial modules, so your
> stated
> reason for forcing a recompile of the kernel is wrong.

I didn't say that it used serial modules, at least not that I see. I
say that you have to recompile so lirc loads drivers as modules, rather
than using the drivers compiled into the kernel, since a driver newer
than those compiled in the kernel needs to be used... The only mention
of serial is in the label of the section of the kernel config that you
have to change...

I'm trying to clarify it though, thanks.

> - A better bitrate peak would be 4000, not 8000, for an average rate
> of 2500.
> Having the peak bitrate too high can cause problems.

Well, okay, but just to let you know, I grabbed that bit of information
off this page:

http://mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-19.html#pvr250

I'm actually running 8M avg/16M peak myself.

> - If you don't want it to capture at 480x480, why don't you just go
> into the
> recording options and change the resolution there?

So you're saying if my card was set to 480x480, and I select 720x480 in
the MythTV setup, it'll adjust the card's capture rate accordingly? I
was unaware that MythTV could adjust that setting on the card. Cool.

> Also, if you're going to
> tell people to blindly change to NTSC and the 4th input on the card,
> you
> should at least show how to get the correct numbers for those by using
> the
> querying commands (-n to list the inputs, -s to list the video
> standards).

I added a section on using 'test_ioctl -a' into my latest revision (not
yet posted) to cover that. I don't think I was blindly telling people
to use input 4; I said the ivtv docs themselves say to use input 0 for
tuner on a PVR-250, but in my case it was input 4, and to try those
first.

> Also, I would very much prefer that you submit patches to the existing
> docs to
> Robert, instead of writing your own.

I'm working on that right now, just got an email back from Bob about
it. :)

I still think that an OS- & hardware-specific guide has a place though,
because the main docs are littered with some much extraneous
information for other distros, other cards, etc., and I know I found
myself bouncing around from page to page, and the steps weren't in the
ideal order for my setup.

Keep up the good work,
-jcw

Jarod C. Wilson wrote:
...
> And I assure you that my notes are far better for someone attempting to
> install MythTV under Red Hat Linux 9 with a WinTV PVR-250 than the
> documentation on the MythTV web site, even if they aren't "authoritative."

Which then suggests to me that you should submit updates
and suggestions for the HOWTO so that everyone who installs
MythTV has access to this information.

> Have you actually read all of both my docs and all of the official docs?

I have proof read every single word of the HOWTO on more than
one occasion. I am not going to read your notes or the dozen
or so other 'how *I* did it' pages that have been written before.
(did you know that others have done this? did you find any of
this pages? did they do you any good whatsoever?). I will,
however, see any and all information you submit to the HOWTO.

It is not a matter of competing to see if you can out do the
HOWTO. It is a question of whether you are going to contribute
to the open source project that you are taking advantage of,
or are you simply interested in drawing attention to yourself.

> In the official docs, there is no mention of RHL9 whatsoever, and only a
> little bit on installing ivtv.

Because you haven't contributed it thus far. The documentation
is not written in stone and it did not descend from the heavens.
Now is the time to rectify this.

> It includes very little about how to
> configure the card after you install the drivers (nothing about setting
> resolution, specifying input, fixing ghosted images, or anything about
> the remote). There is nothing about getting lirc from CVS to support the
> grey remote. And so on.

mailto:rkulagow@rocketmail.com

> ...By the way, much of my initial information
> actually did come from the official site, and was then
> enhanced/customized for RHL9 and a PVR-250.

But then you neglected to send your additions back in.

> Guess what? I've already sent an email to Robert, requesting that at
> least part of my info be incorporated, because I feel the official docs
> are VERY lacking in several areas, particularly with respect to RHL9 and
> the PVR-250.

This is a step in the right direction. Thank you.

> Now I did forget to explicitly mention that. I'm adding that to my docs.
> :) There's a good chance that may have been one of Rob's problems
> (sorry, Rob!).

Yeah, I threw this in because his symptoms seemed similar
to others who had missed this step. Isaac has sent this
several times as a one line response to reports of trouble.

>> http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-18.html#ss18.11
>
>
> Didn't know until looking at that again that you (Bruce) are an
> "official" documenter.

This was the first section I had ever sent in. I assumed that
Robert chose to put the name of the new guy on it so that he
wouldn't take the heat for inaccuracies. At the time there
were at least a half dozen people per day posting questions
about how to get audio working. Since then, these messages
have diminished to a trickle. The questions that do come up
often include something like 'I ran aplay /dev/dsp and here's
what happened'. This test wasn't used until it showed up in
the docs.

I've since contributed "What capture resolution should I
use?", "MythTV GUI and X Display Sizes", "I'd like to save
or restore my database", "Removing unwanted channels", and
half of "Advanced Backend Configurations" and several little
additions and fixes all with Robert's editorial help. All are
subject to input from others and all available to everyone
who uses MythTV.

I also try to do lots of testing to seek out potential
problems and contribute code to fix features I need to use
and add features I'd like to have. I've been interested in
the possibilities of digital recording and convergence for
several years. I'd been involved with other projects in
the past. When I found MythTV, I made a conscious decision
that I wanted to contribute to help it become the kind of
system I've always wanted.

I guess I could have set up my own web site, maintained my
own FAQ (NO, an AIW will NOT work ;-), and kept my own patches
to do the things I wanted. But would this have done anybody
any good? Would anyone other than me care if the hit count
went up on my web site if people came to see my docs? No.

So, I'm asking you again, are you going to contribute to the
project that you have the privilege of using? Or, are you
going to draw attention to yourself for the work that others
have done to satisfy your own vanity?

If you continue on your course, I have to assume the latter.
However, I'd prefer that you contribute. If it really is about
attention, consider this. Wouldn't you gain more of a sense
of notoriety if you were the maintainer of the RH9 install
docs? If your name was on tech notes that appeared in the
documentation that everyone sees?

I assure you :) that you will be better off if you reconsider
what you are doing, and why, and decide to contribute for the
sake of all MythTV users rather than fragmenting information
and confusing new users for the sake of your own agenda.

-- bjm

Please Bruce there's no need to almost accuse people of trying to
fragment the community for vanity's sake when most likely they're only
trying to help, each in their own way.
I can imagine that you might be angered by the critisicm that people
have for the work that you and others are trying to do but that's what
happens when you're in the public's face.
So criticise his docs for all the mistakes they contain, criticise him
for not contributing to the official howtos but let's get rid of wild
speculations and accusations.

-Tako

Bruce Markey wrote:

> Jarod C. Wilson wrote:
> ...
>
> So, I'm asking you again, are you going to contribute to the
> project that you have the privilege of using? Or, are you
> going to draw attention to yourself for the work that others
> have done to satisfy your own vanity?
>
> If you continue on your course, I have to assume the latter.
> However, I'd prefer that you contribute. If it really is about
> attention, consider this. Wouldn't you gain more of a sense
> of notoriety if you were the maintainer of the RH9 install
> docs? If your name was on tech notes that appeared in the
> documentation that everyone sees?
>
> I assure you :) that you will be better off if you reconsider
> what you are doing, and why, and decide to contribute for the
> sake of all MythTV users rather than fragmenting information
> and confusing new users for the sake of your own agenda.
>
> -- bjm
>
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