Mailing List Archive

On Monday 18 September 2006 9:43 pm, Steven Ellis wrote:

> 1. Anyone notice it with their setup.
>
Yes a little.

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>Anyone notice that compared with LiveTV, VCR or DVD there always appears
>to be a hint of motion blur with computer playback on TVs or monitors.
>I've tried all kinds of things to minimise this but its still present. I
>was beginning to wonder if perhaps i'm a bit too sensitive to it.
>
>In fact this isn't specific to MythTV. I watched the Microsoft Windows
>MCE demo at the home show last week and they had the same video issues
>both with a HP PC and an XBox 360.
>
>So
>
>1. Anyone notice it with their setup.
>
>2. Any work arounds/fixes?

If your recording with a PVR-xxx card, try setting the dnr_temporal
to 0. My PVR-150 had it set to 8 by default.

/usr/bin/ivtvctl -c dnr_temporal=0

Also I noticed that turning on Bob deinterlacing seemed to make
things look a little crisper on the telly downstairs (26" CRT by
composite video), and less motion blurry.

It still doesn't look quite like normal TV, but much better than I
started with.

- Wade

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Wade Maxfield wrote:
>>Anyone notice that compared with LiveTV, VCR or DVD there always appears
>>to be a hint of motion blur with computer playback on TVs or monitors.
>>I've tried all kinds of things to minimise this but its still present. I
>>was beginning to wonder if perhaps i'm a bit too sensitive to it.
>>
>>In fact this isn't specific to MythTV. I watched the Microsoft Windows
>>MCE demo at the home show last week and they had the same video issues
>>both with a HP PC and an XBox 360.
>>
>>So
>>
>>1. Anyone notice it with their setup.
>>
>>2. Any work arounds/fixes?
>
> If your recording with a PVR-xxx card, try setting the dnr_temporal
> to 0. My PVR-150 had it set to 8 by default.
>
> /usr/bin/ivtvctl -c dnr_temporal=0

Already set to 0

ivtvctl -C
ioctl IVTV_IOC_G_CODEC ok
Codec parameters
aspect : 2
audio : 0x00e9
bframes : 3
bitrate_mode: 0
bitrate : 8000000
bitrate_peak: 9600000
dnr_mode : 0
dnr_spatial : 0
dnr_temporal: 0
dnr_type : 0
framerate : 0
framespergop: 12
gop_closure : 1
pulldown : 0
stream_type : 14

>
> Also I noticed that turning on Bob deinterlacing seemed to make
> things look a little crisper on the telly downstairs (26" CRT by
> composite video), and less motion blurry.

Now for a normal CRT you shouldn't need deinterlacing.

Also i've tried all de-interlace formats on both interlaced and
progressive displays with little improvement.

If I take the capture of a PVR150/500 card and burn it to DVD it plays
perfectly on a normal DVD with no blur, playing with mplayer/xine/internal
on mplayer still produces the motion blur.

Steve


--------------------------------------------
Steven Ellis - Technical Director
OpenMedia Limited
email - steven@openmedia.co.nz
sales - sales@openmedia.co.nz
support - support@openmedia.co.nz
website - http://www.openmedia.co.nz
phone - +64 21 321673

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On Mon, 2006-09-18 at 21:43 +1200, Steven Ellis wrote:
> Anyone notice that compared with LiveTV, VCR or DVD there always appears
> to be a hint of motion blur with computer playback on TVs or monitors.
> I've tried all kinds of things to minimise this but its still present. I
> was beginning to wonder if perhaps i'm a bit too sensitive to it.
>
> In fact this isn't specific to MythTV. I watched the Microsoft Windows
> MCE demo at the home show last week and they had the same video issues
> both with a HP PC and an XBox 360.
>
> So
>
> 1. Anyone notice it with their setup.

Fairly common problem, most TV encoders are trying to do progressive to
interlaced conversions and not neccecarily doing a great job of it. The
video doesn't always line up with the scan lines, and conversion between
the two is ugly, so the whole thing gets a bit soft.

And the original content was interlaced, so you've really got
interlaced->progressive->interlaced in there.

One of the drivers I have for getting a decent HD set is not really all
that HD content out there, but so I can drive it over HDMI in a
progressive mode and bypass a few conversion steps.

--
David Zanetti <david.zanetti@catalyst.net.nz>
Systems Architect
Catalyst IT Limited
+64-4-8032233 +64-21-402260

David Zanetti wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-09-18 at 21:43 +1200, Steven Ellis wrote:
>> Anyone notice that compared with LiveTV, VCR or DVD there always appears
>> to be a hint of motion blur with computer playback on TVs or monitors.
>> I've tried all kinds of things to minimise this but its still present. I
>> was beginning to wonder if perhaps i'm a bit too sensitive to it.
>>
>> In fact this isn't specific to MythTV. I watched the Microsoft Windows
>> MCE demo at the home show last week and they had the same video issues
>> both with a HP PC and an XBox 360.
>>
>> So
>>
>> 1. Anyone notice it with their setup.
>
> Fairly common problem, most TV encoders are trying to do progressive to
> interlaced conversions and not neccecarily doing a great job of it. The
> video doesn't always line up with the scan lines, and conversion between
> the two is ugly, so the whole thing gets a bit soft.
>
> And the original content was interlaced, so you've really got
> interlaced->progressive->interlaced in there.
>
> One of the drivers I have for getting a decent HD set is not really all
> that HD content out there, but so I can drive it over HDMI in a
> progressive mode and bypass a few conversion steps.

Tried a number of HD screens over DVI->HDMI and the blur is still high.
Got a de-interlacer enabled to perform

interlaced->progressive

Still isn't as clear as a DVD player.

Steve

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On 9/19/06, Steven Ellis <steven@openmedia.co.nz> wrote:
> Now for a normal CRT you shouldn't need deinterlacing.
>
> Also i've tried all de-interlace formats on both interlaced and
> progressive displays with little improvement.

I found that even with a CRT that deinterlacing improved the picture.
I admit I didn't try very hard to get a perfect PAL signal out of the
video card though. And of course most of the deinterlacing filters
make the picture blurrier.

> If I take the capture of a PVR150/500 card and burn it to DVD it plays
> perfectly on a normal DVD with no blur, playing with mplayer/xine/internal
> on mplayer still produces the motion blur.

Even with a progressive display (e.g. plasma over VGA or DVI)?

Steve

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Steve Hodge wrote:
> On 9/19/06, Steven Ellis <steven@openmedia.co.nz> wrote:
>> Now for a normal CRT you shouldn't need deinterlacing.
>>
>> Also i've tried all de-interlace formats on both interlaced and
>> progressive displays with little improvement.
>
> I found that even with a CRT that deinterlacing improved the picture.
> I admit I didn't try very hard to get a perfect PAL signal out of the
> video card though. And of course most of the deinterlacing filters
> make the picture blurrier.
>
>> If I take the capture of a PVR150/500 card and burn it to DVD it plays
>> perfectly on a normal DVD with no blur, playing with
>> mplayer/xine/internal
>> on mplayer still produces the motion blur.
>
> Even with a progressive display (e.g. plasma over VGA or DVI)?

Yup. Noticable compared with a DVD Player.

Steve


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Quoting Steven Ellis <steven@openmedia.co.nz>:

> David Zanetti wrote:
> > Fairly common problem, most TV encoders are trying to do progressive
> to
> > interlaced conversions and not neccecarily doing a great job of it.
> The
> > video doesn't always line up with the scan lines, and conversion
> between
> > the two is ugly, so the whole thing gets a bit soft.
> >
> > And the original content was interlaced, so you've really got
> > interlaced->progressive->interlaced in there.
> >
> > One of the drivers I have for getting a decent HD set is not really
> all
> > that HD content out there, but so I can drive it over HDMI in a
> > progressive mode and bypass a few conversion steps.
>
> Tried a number of HD screens over DVI->HDMI and the blur is still high.
> Got a de-interlacer enabled to perform
>
> interlaced->progressive
>
> Still isn't as clear as a DVD player.

I find this with the the (non-HD) plasma I have. It is a progressive/interlace
problem as David says. If you drive your display with an interlaced signal
(TV-out off the video card) then the card will be interlacing a progressive
signal which is probably showing a deinterlaced version of an interlaced recording.

To eliminate some of this conversion, driving the display digitally is obviously
a better option, hence using DVI or HDMI. You can even use VGA or component out
(if you have one of those $400+ NVidia cards) to drive the display
progressively. This will make your menus and non-recorded stuff look better
(should do, anyway!)

If you play a progressive-scan DVD or AVI file across this progressive picture
you should see pretty good rendering of it. But you won't see DVD quality
rendering - I agree. I think this can be for one or two reasons: one: you're
trying to display 25 (or maybe even 30) frames a second on a display that's used
to showing 50 or 60 fields. 24-25 frames is about as slow as you can go before
you start to see the frames individually. I think this is where you start to
see the frames chopping a bit (the top half of the picture not keeping up with
the bottom) when there is a lot of motion in the picture (like a sports game
with lots of panning). Two could be to do with the speed at which the signal is
delivered to the display (though DVI must surely be able to keep up) and or the
quality of the source recording (remembering that it was recorded interlaced but
this will never come out properly on a media centre style setup unless you use
something like the PVR-350's TV out.

Progressive scan DVDs do some up-conversion anyway, I think, doubling frames up
for a faster frame rate?

Personally I'm going to try a better graphics card, as rendering of downloaded
HD content (like the WMV samples) is *almost* spot on. And only over VGA...

Once that's fixed then I'll start tweaking the capture settings. :)



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my suggestion is that it is part of the default mpeg4 compression settings,
open divx is not a great codec I suggest myth switch to xvid, particularly
the max and min quality settings and how much it is allowed to change
between frames ;-)

On 19/09/06, Duncan Kennington <bubba@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
> Quoting Steven Ellis <steven@openmedia.co.nz>:
>
> > David Zanetti wrote:
> > > Fairly common problem, most TV encoders are trying to do progressive
> > to
> > > interlaced conversions and not neccecarily doing a great job of it.
> > The
> > > video doesn't always line up with the scan lines, and conversion
> > between
> > > the two is ugly, so the whole thing gets a bit soft.
> > >
> > > And the original content was interlaced, so you've really got
> > > interlaced->progressive->interlaced in there.
> > >
> > > One of the drivers I have for getting a decent HD set is not really
> > all
> > > that HD content out there, but so I can drive it over HDMI in a
> > > progressive mode and bypass a few conversion steps.
> >
> > Tried a number of HD screens over DVI->HDMI and the blur is still high.
> > Got a de-interlacer enabled to perform
> >
> > interlaced->progressive
> >
> > Still isn't as clear as a DVD player.
>
> I find this with the the (non-HD) plasma I have. It is a
> progressive/interlace
> problem as David says. If you drive your display with an interlaced
> signal
> (TV-out off the video card) then the card will be interlacing a
> progressive
> signal which is probably showing a deinterlaced version of an interlaced
> recording.
>
> To eliminate some of this conversion, driving the display digitally is
> obviously
> a better option, hence using DVI or HDMI. You can even use VGA or
> component out
> (if you have one of those $400+ NVidia cards) to drive the display
> progressively. This will make your menus and non-recorded stuff look
> better
> (should do, anyway!)
>
> If you play a progressive-scan DVD or AVI file across this progressive
> picture
> you should see pretty good rendering of it. But you won't see DVD quality
> rendering - I agree. I think this can be for one or two reasons: one:
> you're
> trying to display 25 (or maybe even 30) frames a second on a display
> that's used
> to showing 50 or 60 fields. 24-25 frames is about as slow as you can go
> before
> you start to see the frames individually. I think this is where you start
> to
> see the frames chopping a bit (the top half of the picture not keeping up
> with
> the bottom) when there is a lot of motion in the picture (like a sports
> game
> with lots of panning). Two could be to do with the speed at which the
> signal is
> delivered to the display (though DVI must surely be able to keep up) and
> or the
> quality of the source recording (remembering that it was recorded
> interlaced but
> this will never come out properly on a media centre style setup unless you
> use
> something like the PVR-350's TV out.
>
> Progressive scan DVDs do some up-conversion anyway, I think, doubling
> frames up
> for a faster frame rate?
>
> Personally I'm going to try a better graphics card, as rendering of
> downloaded
> HD content (like the WMV samples) is *almost* spot on. And only over
> VGA...
>
> Once that's fixed then I'll start tweaking the capture settings. :)
>
>
>
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>



--
Craig Appleton
http://mythblasterz.gotdns.com/
Email: c.g.appleton@gmail.com
Phone: +64 27 472 9531
MSN Messenger: c_g_appleton@hotmail.com

Craig Appleton wrote:
> my suggestion is that it is part of the default mpeg4 compression
> settings,
> open divx is not a great codec I suggest myth switch to xvid, particularly
> the max and min quality settings and how much it is allowed to change
> between frames ;-)

Funny that i'm not testing MPEG4 but I still have this problem :)

Steve

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Duncan Kennington wrote:
> Quoting Steven Ellis <steven@openmedia.co.nz>:
>
>> David Zanetti wrote:
>> > Fairly common problem, most TV encoders are trying to do progressive
>> to
>> > interlaced conversions and not neccecarily doing a great job of it.
>> The
>> > video doesn't always line up with the scan lines, and conversion
>> between
>> > the two is ugly, so the whole thing gets a bit soft.
>> >
>> > And the original content was interlaced, so you've really got
>> > interlaced->progressive->interlaced in there.
>> >
>> > One of the drivers I have for getting a decent HD set is not really
>> all
>> > that HD content out there, but so I can drive it over HDMI in a
>> > progressive mode and bypass a few conversion steps.
>>
>> Tried a number of HD screens over DVI->HDMI and the blur is still high.
>> Got a de-interlacer enabled to perform
>>
>> interlaced->progressive
>>
>> Still isn't as clear as a DVD player.
>
> I find this with the the (non-HD) plasma I have. It is a
> progressive/interlace
> problem as David says. If you drive your display with an interlaced
> signal
> (TV-out off the video card) then the card will be interlacing a
> progressive
> signal which is probably showing a deinterlaced version of an interlaced
> recording.
>
> To eliminate some of this conversion, driving the display digitally is
> obviously
> a better option, hence using DVI or HDMI. You can even use VGA or
> component out
> (if you have one of those $400+ NVidia cards) to drive the display
> progressively. This will make your menus and non-recorded stuff look
> better
> (should do, anyway!)

Ok I've tried all of the following in a range of resolutions from

Inputs - Component/Composite/SVideo/VGA/DVI

Video Output Format -480i/576i/576p/720p/1080i/1080p/1200p

Deinterlacer - Interlaced/Bob/Kernel/lavc

MPEG2 Library - standard/libmpeg2/XvMC

I've also tried a variety of PAL/NTSC video source both SD, 720p and 1080i.

In the end 1080i -> 1080i/p is the best.

Even 720p -> 1080i/p has the same motion issues.

Anything lower down at SD resolutions is shocking.

There is no video tearing an playback as vsync is locked correctly.


The other side of this it the problem isn't Linux specific. I've seen it
with WinMCE and XBox360.


>
> Progressive scan DVDs do some up-conversion anyway, I think, doubling
> frames up
> for a faster frame rate?

This would be the equivalent to Bob deinterlacing.

>
> Personally I'm going to try a better graphics card, as rendering of
> downloaded
> HD content (like the WMV samples) is *almost* spot on. And only over
> VGA...

Been playing with some of the HD movie trailers as samples. They do look
gorgeus, especially some of the QuickTime 1080 trailers.

Steve

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