Mailing List Archive

On 10/4/23 13:39, Gary Buhrmaster wrote:
> I am not sure the project wants to address this, but
> a quick look at all of the buildbot workers that build
> the web app as part of their build are reporting:
>
>
>
> npm WARN deprecated @npmcli/move-file@1.1.2: This functionality has
> been moved to @npmcli/fs
> npm WARN deprecated @npmcli/move-file@2.0.1: This functionality has
> been moved to @npmcli/fs
> npm WARN deprecated source-map-resolve@0.6.0: See
> https://github.com/lydell/source-map-resolve#deprecated
> npm WARN deprecated sourcemap-codec@1.4.8: Please use
> @jridgewell/sourcemap-codec instead
> npm WARN deprecated core-js@3.20.3: core-js@<3.23.3 is no longer
> maintained and not recommended for usage due to the number of issues.
> Because of the V8 engine whims, feature detection in old core-js
> versions could cause a slowdown up to 100x even if nothing is
> polyfilled. Some versions have web compatibility issues. Please,
> upgrade your dependencies to the actual version of core-js.
>
>
>
> I have not looked at the details, but I suspect
> that upgrading the angular base is the way
> forward (at least some of the packages are
> from angular). This may, or may not, be straightforward
> (looks like the angular base in MythTV may be
> v13..., which is long unsupported, and the current
> version is v16...). Angular v16 requires nodejs
> v16 or v18, which seems to be available in the
> MythTV officially supported distros per the
> development guidelines.
>
> The angular framework provides guidance
> as to how to move forward, and what to
> watch out for:
>
> https://update.angular.io/?v=13.0-16.0
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> MythTV Forums: https://forum.mythtv.org

I attempted to upgrade angular at some point during the last year.
Everything seemed fine until I ran the application and I was told I did
not have a license. After investigating it turned out that you can use
old versions for free but to use a current version required a license
($$$). So I went back and upgraded to a slightly newer version that we
had been using, but that was old enough to not need a license. I decided
to stick with that for the time being.

Peter


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On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 7:41?PM Peter Bennett <pb.mythtv@gmail.com> wrote:

> I attempted to upgrade angular at some point during the last year.
> Everything seemed fine until I ran the application and I was told I did
> not have a license. After investigating it turned out that you can use
> old versions for free but to use a current version required a license
> ($$$). So I went back and upgraded to a slightly newer version that we
> had been using, but that was old enough to not need a license. I decided
> to stick with that for the time being.

Angular (itself) should be free, but some of the
various additional modules may have moved
to require a payment (license). Probably best
to replace those with a free equivalent (or
migrate to something else).

I'll add to my list (to be executed in my copious
free time (once I find it sometime in the next
few years or so)) to try to determine which
modules have gone to the non-free side(*).



(*) I actually understand. Supporting "free"
software is not itself free, and at some point
one needs to have an income stream for
doing all the things others ask of you, or
become starving artists sleeping on the
sofa's of what will be ex-friends.
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On 08/10/2023 04:56, Gary Buhrmaster wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 7:41?PM Peter Bennett <pb.mythtv@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I attempted to upgrade angular at some point during the last year.
>> Everything seemed fine until I ran the application and I was told I did
>> not have a license. After investigating it turned out that you can use
>> old versions for free but to use a current version required a license
>> ($$$). So I went back and upgraded to a slightly newer version that we
>> had been using, but that was old enough to not need a license. I decided
>> to stick with that for the time being.
> Angular (itself) should be free, but some of the
> various additional modules may have moved
> to require a payment (license). Probably best
> to replace those with a free equivalent (or
> migrate to something else).
>
> I'll add to my list (to be executed in my copious
> free time (once I find it sometime in the next
> few years or so)) to try to determine which
> modules have gone to the non-free side(*).
>
>
>
> (*) I actually understand. Supporting "free"
> software is not itself free, and at some point
> one needs to have an income stream for
> doing all the things others ask of you, or
> become starving artists sleeping on the
> sofa's of what will be ex-friends.


It's news to me that we used anything that isn't free to use \0/


I do know some of the cooler PrimeNG stuff requires a paid for license,
like Prime Blocks, but we don't use any of that stuff. We couldn't even
if we wanted to since the license prevents you using any of it in an
open source project. I'm not aware of adding any modules other than
Angular,  PrimeNG and ngx-translate plus what ever dependencies they
require?


Paul H.

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On 10/8/23 08:04, Paul Harrison wrote:
> It's news to me that we used anything that isn't free to use \0/
>
>
The page that I came to when investigating it said that you could use
old versions for free but the newer versions require a license. I do not
remember the details but I think it said those versions still under
support require a license. We are using stuff that IS free to use, since
we are using an older version.


> I do know some of the cooler PrimeNG stuff requires a paid for
> license, like Prime Blocks, but we don't use any of that stuff. We
> couldn't even if we wanted to since the license prevents you using any
> of it in an open source project. I'm not aware of adding any modules
> other than Angular,  PrimeNG and ngx-translate plus what ever
> dependencies they require?
>
>
> Paul H.
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On 10/7/23 23:56, Gary Buhrmaster wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 7:41?PM Peter Bennett <pb.mythtv@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I attempted to upgrade angular at some point during the last year.
>> Everything seemed fine until I ran the application and I was told I did
>> not have a license. After investigating it turned out that you can use
>> old versions for free but to use a current version required a license
>> ($$$). So I went back and upgraded to a slightly newer version that we
>> had been using, but that was old enough to not need a license. I decided
>> to stick with that for the time being.
> Angular (itself) should be free, but some of the
> various additional modules may have moved
> to require a payment (license). Probably best
> to replace those with a free equivalent (or
> migrate to something else).
>
> I'll add to my list (to be executed in my copious
> free time (once I find it sometime in the next
> few years or so)) to try to determine which
> modules have gone to the non-free side(*).
>
>
>
> (*) I actually understand. Supporting "free"
> software is not itself free, and at some point
> one needs to have an income stream for
> doing all the things others ask of you, or
> become starving artists sleeping on the
> sofa's of what will be ex-friends.

Actually, it is PrimeNG that requires a license. See https://primeng.org/lts

We are using V13. Versions above V13 currently require a paid license.

As far as I know, using V13 of PrimeNG requires using V13 of Angular.

PrimeNG is used extensively throughout the web app.

Peter

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On 08/10/2023 20:28, Peter Bennett wrote:

>
> On 10/7/23 23:56, Gary Buhrmaster wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 7:41?PM Peter Bennett <pb.mythtv@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I attempted to upgrade angular at some point during the last year.
>>> Everything seemed fine until I ran the application and I was told I did
>>> not have a license. After investigating it turned out that you can use
>>> old versions for free but to use a current version required a license
>>> ($$$). So I went back and upgraded to a slightly newer version that we
>>> had been using, but that was old enough to not need a license. I
>>> decided
>>> to stick with that for the time being.
>> Angular (itself) should be free, but some of the
>> various additional modules may have moved
>> to require a payment (license).  Probably best
>> to replace those with a free equivalent (or
>> migrate to something else).
>>
>> I'll add to my list (to be executed in my copious
>> free time (once I find it sometime in the next
>> few years or so)) to try to determine which
>> modules have gone to the non-free side(*).
>>
>>
>>
>> (*) I actually understand.  Supporting "free"
>> software is not itself free, and at some point
>> one needs to have an income stream for
>> doing all the things others ask of you, or
>> become starving artists sleeping on the
>> sofa's of what will be ex-friends.
>
> Actually, it is PrimeNG that requires a license. See
> https://primeng.org/lts
>
> We are using V13. Versions above V13 currently require a paid license.
>
> As far as I know, using V13 of PrimeNG requires using V13 of Angular.
>
> PrimeNG is used extensively throughout the web app.
>
> Peter
>

The way I read it is we can't use v14 or v15 because they are LTS
releases, which can't be used in open source projects, but we could use
v16 but only until v17 is released when v16 will also become an LTS
release. Am I understanding that correctly? What happens if we move to
v16 which later becomes an LTS release are we then forced to move to v17
for the next 6 months and so one. If that is true then that just sucks
:( It sounds like they are using the open source community as beta
testers for their releases which they then push to there licensed users
as the LTS releases?


Paul H.

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On Mon, 2023-10-09 at 12:03 +0100, Paul Harrison wrote:
> The way I read it is we can't use v14 or v15 because they are LTS
> releases, which can't be used in open source projects, but we could use
> v16 but only until v17 is released when v16 will also become an LTS
> release. Am I understanding that correctly? What happens if we move to
> v16 which later becomes an LTS release are we then forced to move to v17
> for the next 6 months and so one. If that is true then that just sucks
> :( It sounds like they are using the open source community as beta
> testers for their releases which they then push to there licensed users
> as the LTS releases?

They can't relicense existing releases, they are out there under the
MIT which cannot be revoked.

So AIUI if v16.0.X is the last OSS release and v16.0.(X+1) is the first
non-free LTS release made after v17 comes out, you can keep using
v16.0.X but you cannot bump to (X+1) without paying, you'll have
instead to go to OSS v17.0.B. There will also be some final OSS v14 and
v15 which could be used as stepping stones too.

It seems like there would be no Support for v16.0.X at that point (at
least not from the owners, I assume community support still exists),
but I don't know to what extent the myth devs are using that anyway...

So not great, but maybe not as catastrophic as it first seemed.

Ian
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On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 11:04?AM Paul Harrison <mythtv@mythqml.net> wrote:

> The way I read it is we can't use v14 or v15 because they are LTS
> releases, which can't be used in open source projects, but we could use
> v16 but only until v17 is released when v16 will also become an LTS
> release. Am I understanding that correctly? What happens if we move to
> v16 which later becomes an LTS release are we then forced to move to v17
> for the next 6 months and so one. If that is true then that just sucks
> :( It sounds like they are using the open source community as beta
> testers for their releases which they then push to there licensed users
> as the LTS releases?

Well, as I understand it, while the PrimeNG cadence (every six
months) is more rapid than some other software projects, LTS
(backporting) support for older versions being paid (mostly/only)
is not exactly unusual.

There is no requirement for a project to move forward (for
Angular/PrimeNG) unless they want fixes or new features, but
in reality one eventually needs those fixes (some of which as
security related) or features. This topic was started because
at least some of the modules being used seem to suggest they
have security issues.

It appears to be possible (as I mentioned in the github
issue) to move from one last pre-LTS version of PrimeNG
to another on the way up to the current community version
if one wants to move version by version up the ladder
without hitting LTS licensing requirements (so you can
move from v13 to the last non-LTS v14, to the last non-LTS
v15, to v16 as part of the stepwise update(s) which may
reduce the effort of doing it all at once).

There is nothing (in the license) to prevent from you doing
your own backporting of targeted fixes if you don't want to
move to a new version, but that can end up being a lot of
work which is likely underfunded/underresourced.

For simpler apps (and MythTV is probably in that category)
moving from one Angular version to the next is likely to be
straightforward as long as someone is willing to do the
update somewhat regularly (and if the project releases
early and often (say, every six months or so :-)) it is just
part of the normal things to do after a release (i.e. apply
the latest angular update to the new master and then
test, test, and of course, test)).

Of those 41 steps that Peter mentioned in the github issue
that Angular suggests need to be done from v13 to v16,
some (many?) end up being of the form "if you used that,
change to using this" type of step, which, if you were not
moving 3 versions would have been fewer (and how
many actually impact your app, as always, depends on
your code).

I presume that when the developers chose their framework
the requirement of PrimeNG to continuously move forward
to maintain current fixes was mentioned as part of the
evaluation by those that were the deciders (I admit I do not
recall a discussion on this list about the choice of PrimeNG,
although I do recall some about Angular vs ReactJS vs
Svelte; maybe it all happened on IRC).
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On 09/10/2023 13:21, Gary Buhrmaster wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 11:04?AM Paul Harrison <mythtv@mythqml.net> wrote:
>
>> The way I read it is we can't use v14 or v15 because they are LTS
>> releases, which can't be used in open source projects, but we could use
>> v16 but only until v17 is released when v16 will also become an LTS
>> release. Am I understanding that correctly? What happens if we move to
>> v16 which later becomes an LTS release are we then forced to move to v17
>> for the next 6 months and so one. If that is true then that just sucks
>> :( It sounds like they are using the open source community as beta
>> testers for their releases which they then push to there licensed users
>> as the LTS releases?
> Well, as I understand it, while the PrimeNG cadence (every six
> months) is more rapid than some other software projects, LTS
> (backporting) support for older versions being paid (mostly/only)
> is not exactly unusual.
>
> There is no requirement for a project to move forward (for
> Angular/PrimeNG) unless they want fixes or new features, but
> in reality one eventually needs those fixes (some of which as
> security related) or features. This topic was started because
> at least some of the modules being used seem to suggest they
> have security issues.
>
> It appears to be possible (as I mentioned in the github
> issue) to move from one last pre-LTS version of PrimeNG
> to another on the way up to the current community version
> if one wants to move version by version up the ladder
> without hitting LTS licensing requirements (so you can
> move from v13 to the last non-LTS v14, to the last non-LTS
> v15, to v16 as part of the stepwise update(s) which may
> reduce the effort of doing it all at once).
>
> There is nothing (in the license) to prevent from you doing
> your own backporting of targeted fixes if you don't want to
> move to a new version, but that can end up being a lot of
> work which is likely underfunded/underresourced.
>
> For simpler apps (and MythTV is probably in that category)
> moving from one Angular version to the next is likely to be
> straightforward as long as someone is willing to do the
> update somewhat regularly (and if the project releases
> early and often (say, every six months or so :-)) it is just
> part of the normal things to do after a release (i.e. apply
> the latest angular update to the new master and then
> test, test, and of course, test)).
>
> Of those 41 steps that Peter mentioned in the github issue
> that Angular suggests need to be done from v13 to v16,
> some (many?) end up being of the form "if you used that,
> change to using this" type of step, which, if you were not
> moving 3 versions would have been fewer (and how
> many actually impact your app, as always, depends on
> your code).
>
> I presume that when the developers chose their framework
> the requirement of PrimeNG to continuously move forward
> to maintain current fixes was mentioned as part of the
> evaluation by those that were the deciders (I admit I do not
> recall a discussion on this list about the choice of PrimeNG,
> although I do recall some about Angular vs ReactJS vs
> Svelte; maybe it all happened on IRC).


While we did discuss many times wanting to move the setup to the
Services API and have a web app as the main frontend to it only Stuart A
was interested enough to start to work on it. I believe he started out
using something other than Angular, React possibly? but later settled on
Angular.  All the other devs weren't interested at all so there was very
little discussion about it with them. Even though I hate having to use a
web app for setup stuff I started to help Stuart A really in a effort to
get the Services API part done so I could use it in my own app but also
in an effort to try to get things moving and hopefully to get other devs
interested enough to help out. Most of the the discussions about it
between Stuart and I was in private since the reality was no one else
was really interested or offered to help in the early days. For the UI
framework we started out with Material but later switched to PrimeNG,
Neither are perfect but PrimeNG had slightly better docs and examples
and had a wider variety of elements? we could use. In particular it had
a wizard style control that I thought would be useful to help new users
to setup for the first time. Unfortunately Peter didn't agree and has
since removed it from the current App :( so what we have now is just a
copy/paste of the original setup. I think that is a missed opportunity
to simplify a lot of stuff especially for first time users. I don't
think either of us was aware of the strange release schedule and
licensing of PrimeNG though.


Moving forward we are not tied to using PrimeNG if something better can
be found?

We could just stick with v13 but as you say at some point we may be
forced to upgrade?

 We could try to find the last OS release of v14 that we can legally
use and tentatively attempt an upgrade. We would of cause have to
upgrade both PrimeNG and Angular at the same time. If that goes well we
could then try for v15 and then v16.  I think if we go down this path
then we should upgrade more often so it becomes less of a chore, if you
are just jumping one release the number of changes should be less than
if you are jumping 3 leases for example.


It's not clear if Stuart A will be coming back or not, the last time we
spoke he was busy with a new job and family life etc so he's not going
to be around to help at least in the short term. I'm not happy with the
way the WebApp is moving if I'm honest so I wont be helping out either.
I may at some point help with some Service API changes if I need them.


Paul H.

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