Mailing List Archive

If you don't want gaming you should definitely explore second hand
workstations; for example an E5-2680 v4 is arguably quite more CPU than
that Ryzen.

Mind the power consumption.

Best regards,
Vasile Vilvoiu
On 5/13/22 11:39, Philip Webb wrote:
> Thanks for the detailed advice, esp Frank + Dale + also Wols + Perkins.
> These are my proposed parts for ANB6, wh I will buy from Canada Computers ;
> prices are in CAD, of course ; a few further comments from me below :
>
> CPU : AMD : CPAMD00131 : Ryzen 7 : 5700G : 8-core 16-thread : $ 388
> Socket AM4 : 3,8 / 4,6 GHz : Radeon Graphix Wreath Stealth
>
> Mobo : MBGIG00145 : Gigabyte : X570 Aorus elite WIFI : $ 220
> dual PCIe 4.0 M.2 : Intel dual-band 802.11ac wireless
> front USB Type C : RGB Fusion 2.0
>
> Memory : MEKIT00523 : Kingston Fury Beast : 2 x 16 GB : DDR4 3200 MHz : $ 160
>
> SSD : SSKIT00120 : Kingston KC3000 : 1 TB : PCIe Gen4 : NVMe M.2
> R 7000 MB/s ; W 6000 MB/s : $ 190
>
> HDD : HDSEA00016 : Seagate IronWolf : 4 TB : CMR :
> SATA 6 Gb/s : 5900 RPM : 64 MB Cache : 3 Yr Warranty : $ 110
>
> Case : CSDCL00015 : Deepcool D-Shield V2 ATX : Compact Mid Tower Case : $ 60
> CSDCL00019 : Deepcool E-Shield : Mid Tower Chassis,
> Black, Tempered Glass, 120mm Fan, Radiator Support,
> E-ATX/ATX/MicroATX/MiniITX : $ 60
>
> Power : PSTHL00007 : Thermaltake Smart White : 700 W
> 80 PLUS Certified Power Supply : $ 80 [[ total $ 1268 ]]
>
> Comments : the machine is intended to last 7 years ,
> so I'm going for more power + speed than I'm likely to use today ;
> of course, I don't want to waste CAD, but will pay more for better value ;
> I don't do gaming, but I do need a powerful machine for Gentoo compiling.
>
> CPU : based on Frank's recommendation ; I prefer AMD.
> Mobo : Canada Computers say this is often bought with the CPU ;
> my present machine (ANB5) has a Gigabyte mobo, as has its predecessor ;
> it says it can support PCIe 4.0, which matches the SSD ;
> I'ld like to have WIFI available, tho' I may carry on with landline.
> Memory : the mobo will accept 32 GB sticks, but I don't need them ;
> I've had good experiences with Kingston.
> SSD : PCIe 4 is much faster than PCI 3 ; 1 TB is enough.
> HDD : I heard the warnings & this is CMR ;
> I also heard Frank's advice re spin-speed : this is lower.
> Case : I'm inclined to get '19',
> but wonder if there's a serious diffence between 'ATX' vs 'ATXe' :
> any advice wb welcome.
> Power : the summary says "700 W", but the specs say "500 W" :
> the price is a bit more than others which are 500 W
> & I can ask in the store, so I'm willing to assume "500" is a typo.
>
> Any further advice wb very welcome (smile to everyone).
>

On Friday, 13 May 2022 09:39:51 BST Philip Webb wrote:
> Thanks for the detailed advice, esp Frank + Dale + also Wols + Perkins.
> These are my proposed parts for ANB6, wh I will buy from Canada Computers ;
> prices are in CAD, of course ; a few further comments from me below :
>
> CPU : AMD : CPAMD00131 : Ryzen 7 : 5700G : 8-core 16-thread : $ 388
> Socket AM4 : 3,8 / 4,6 GHz : Radeon Graphix Wreath Stealth
>
> Mobo : MBGIG00145 : Gigabyte : X570 Aorus elite WIFI : $ 220
> dual PCIe 4.0 M.2 : Intel dual-band 802.11ac wireless
> front USB Type C : RGB Fusion 2.0
>
> Memory : MEKIT00523 : Kingston Fury Beast : 2 x 16 GB : DDR4 3200 MHz : $
> 160
>
> SSD : SSKIT00120 : Kingston KC3000 : 1 TB : PCIe Gen4 : NVMe M.2
> R 7000 MB/s ; W 6000 MB/s : $ 190
>
> HDD : HDSEA00016 : Seagate IronWolf : 4 TB : CMR :
> SATA 6 Gb/s : 5900 RPM : 64 MB Cache : 3 Yr Warranty : $ 110
>
> Case : CSDCL00015 : Deepcool D-Shield V2 ATX : Compact Mid Tower Case : $ 60
> CSDCL00019 : Deepcool E-Shield : Mid Tower Chassis,
> Black, Tempered Glass, 120mm Fan, Radiator Support,
> E-ATX/ATX/MicroATX/MiniITX : $ 60
>
> Power : PSTHL00007 : Thermaltake Smart White : 700 W
> 80 PLUS Certified Power Supply : $ 80 [[ total $ 1268 ]]
>
> Comments : the machine is intended to last 7 years ,
> so I'm going for more power + speed than I'm likely to use today ;
> of course, I don't want to waste CAD, but will pay more for better value ;
> I don't do gaming, but I do need a powerful machine for Gentoo compiling.
>
> CPU : based on Frank's recommendation ; I prefer AMD.
> Mobo : Canada Computers say this is often bought with the CPU ;
> my present machine (ANB5) has a Gigabyte mobo, as has its predecessor ;
> it says it can support PCIe 4.0, which matches the SSD ;
> I'ld like to have WIFI available, tho' I may carry on with landline.
> Memory : the mobo will accept 32 GB sticks, but I don't need them ;
> I've had good experiences with Kingston.
> SSD : PCIe 4 is much faster than PCI 3 ; 1 TB is enough.
> HDD : I heard the warnings & this is CMR ;
> I also heard Frank's advice re spin-speed : this is lower.
> Case : I'm inclined to get '19',
> but wonder if there's a serious diffence between 'ATX' vs 'ATXe' :
> any advice wb welcome.
> Power : the summary says "700 W", but the specs say "500 W" :
> the price is a bit more than others which are 500 W
> & I can ask in the store, so I'm willing to assume "500" is a typo.
>
> Any further advice wb very welcome (smile to everyone).

I'd try to max out memory, because more will soon be better if historical
trends will continue to be observed. You need ~2G per thread on a big compile
at present. If you're also running VMs or RAM intensive apps at the same
time, you soon regret not having more RAM. I'd also spend more money for RAM
of arguably better quality like these, which could also allow you to increase
their voltage a touch:

http://www.gskill.com

I'm no serial builder and I tend to build desktops which last a decade or
more. Therefore I do not penny-pinch on PSU, RAM, cooling, in that order. On
the CPU/APU, I'll buy an AMD on the sweet-spot between performance and price
depreciation.

On 13/05/2022 15:43, Michael wrote:
> On Friday, 13 May 2022 09:39:51 BST Philip Webb wrote:
>> Thanks for the detailed advice, esp Frank + Dale + also Wols + Perkins.
>> These are my proposed parts for ANB6, wh I will buy from Canada Computers ;
>> prices are in CAD, of course ; a few further comments from me below :
>>
>> CPU : AMD : CPAMD00131 : Ryzen 7 : 5700G : 8-core 16-thread : $ 388
>> Socket AM4 : 3,8 / 4,6 GHz : Radeon Graphix Wreath Stealth
>>
>> Mobo : MBGIG00145 : Gigabyte : X570 Aorus elite WIFI : $ 220
>> dual PCIe 4.0 M.2 : Intel dual-band 802.11ac wireless
>> front USB Type C : RGB Fusion 2.0
>>
>> Memory : MEKIT00523 : Kingston Fury Beast : 2 x 16 GB : DDR4 3200 MHz : $
>> 160
>>
>> SSD : SSKIT00120 : Kingston KC3000 : 1 TB : PCIe Gen4 : NVMe M.2
>> R 7000 MB/s ; W 6000 MB/s : $ 190
>>
>> HDD : HDSEA00016 : Seagate IronWolf : 4 TB : CMR :
>> SATA 6 Gb/s : 5900 RPM : 64 MB Cache : 3 Yr Warranty : $ 110

I'd also look at adding a Toshiba N300 to that, again CMR, again
raid-good, and you can mirror them. It'll double read speed as soon as
you need to read much from disk. And if you want reliability or more
disk space you can then easily upgrade that to raid-5 or -6 with another
(couple of) drives.
>>
>> Case : CSDCL00015 : Deepcool D-Shield V2 ATX : Compact Mid Tower Case : $ 60
>> CSDCL00019 : Deepcool E-Shield : Mid Tower Chassis,
>> Black, Tempered Glass, 120mm Fan, Radiator Support,
>> E-ATX/ATX/MicroATX/MiniITX : $ 60
>>
>> Power : PSTHL00007 : Thermaltake Smart White : 700 W
>> 80 PLUS Certified Power Supply : $ 80 [[ total $ 1268 ]]
>>
>> Comments : the machine is intended to last 7 years ,
>> so I'm going for more power + speed than I'm likely to use today ;
>> of course, I don't want to waste CAD, but will pay more for better value ;
>> I don't do gaming, but I do need a powerful machine for Gentoo compiling.
>>
>> CPU : based on Frank's recommendation ; I prefer AMD.
>> Mobo : Canada Computers say this is often bought with the CPU ;
>> my present machine (ANB5) has a Gigabyte mobo, as has its predecessor ;
>> it says it can support PCIe 4.0, which matches the SSD ;
>> I'ld like to have WIFI available, tho' I may carry on with landline.
>> Memory : the mobo will accept 32 GB sticks, but I don't need them ;
>> I've had good experiences with Kingston.
>> SSD : PCIe 4 is much faster than PCI 3 ; 1 TB is enough.
>> HDD : I heard the warnings & this is CMR ;
>> I also heard Frank's advice re spin-speed : this is lower.
>> Case : I'm inclined to get '19',
>> but wonder if there's a serious diffence between 'ATX' vs 'ATXe' :
>> any advice wb welcome.
>> Power : the summary says "700 W", but the specs say "500 W" :
>> the price is a bit more than others which are 500 W
>> & I can ask in the store, so I'm willing to assume "500" is a typo.
>>
>> Any further advice wb very welcome (smile to everyone).
>
> I'd try to max out memory, because more will soon be better if historical
> trends will continue to be observed. You need ~2G per thread on a big compile
> at present. If you're also running VMs or RAM intensive apps at the same
> time, you soon regret not having more RAM. I'd also spend more money for RAM
> of arguably better quality like these, which could also allow you to increase
> their voltage a touch:

Yup. 2x32GB sticks. That's what my current box has and it absolutely
flies once it's cached everything in memory. Last I knew, prices had
crashed. I think I paid LESS for my 2x32 than I paid for 1x16 for this
same computer in its previous (mismatched CPU and mobo) configuration.
>
> http://www.gskill.com
>
> I'm no serial builder and I tend to build desktops which last a decade or
> more. Therefore I do not penny-pinch on PSU, RAM, cooling, in that order. On
> the CPU/APU, I'll buy an AMD on the sweet-spot between performance and price
> depreciation.

Same. Although I use stock cooling because that's "good enough" for a
system you don't intend to hammer. I call that sweet spot "the
coke/champagne switch", is pricing dominated by materials/transport, or
by capacity/R&D costs.

Cheers,
Wol

Am Fri, May 13, 2022 at 04:39:51AM -0400 schrieb Philip Webb:

> Thanks for the detailed advice, esp Frank + Dale + also Wols + Perkins.
> These are my proposed parts for ANB6, wh I will buy from Canada Computers ;
> prices are in CAD, of course ; a few further comments from me below :
>
> CPU : AMD : CPAMD00131 : Ryzen 7 : 5700G : 8-core 16-thread : $ 388
> Socket AM4 : 3,8 / 4,6 GHz : Radeon Graphix Wreath Stealth
>
> Mobo : MBGIG00145 : Gigabyte : X570 Aorus elite WIFI : $ 220
> dual PCIe 4.0 M.2 : Intel dual-band 802.11ac wireless
> front USB Type C : RGB Fusion 2.0
>
> Memory : MEKIT00523 : Kingston Fury Beast : 2 x 16 GB : DDR4 3200 MHz : $ 160
>
> SSD : SSKIT00120 : Kingston KC3000 : 1 TB : PCIe Gen4 : NVMe M.2
> R 7000 MB/s ; W 6000 MB/s : $ 190
>
> HDD : HDSEA00016 : Seagate IronWolf : 4 TB : CMR :
> SATA 6 Gb/s : 5900 RPM : 64 MB Cache : 3 Yr Warranty : $ 110

Interesting RPM. I only knew of 5400 and 7200.

> Case : CSDCL00015 : Deepcool D-Shield V2 ATX : Compact Mid Tower Case : $ 60
> CSDCL00019 : Deepcool E-Shield : Mid Tower Chassis,
> Black, Tempered Glass, 120mm Fan, Radiator Support,
> E-ATX/ATX/MicroATX/MiniITX : $ 60
>
> Power : PSTHL00007 : Thermaltake Smart White : 700 W
> 80 PLUS Certified Power Supply : $ 80 [[ total $ 1268 ]]

80 PLUS what? Bronze? Silver? Gold?

> Comments : the machine is intended to last 7 years ,
> so I'm going for more power + speed than I'm likely to use today ;
> of course, I don't want to waste CAD, but will pay more for better value ;
> I don't do gaming, but I do need a powerful machine for Gentoo compiling.

I can’t remember which of the following details I already told in the last
thread, but it’s not much anyways:

The 5700G sadly only supports PCIe 3.0 due to its laptop nature (remember,
it’s a mobile chip in a desktop package). So unless you really plan on
upgrading the CPU later, there is no need (and basically no use) for a PCIe
4.0 boad and components, which eat more $$$ and ???. But the AM4 platform
has already reached its end, there will probably be no more processor models
than what is available now. So your only choice of upgrades for more
performance is one of the X processors, such as the 5700X or 5800X3D. The
next-gen processors need the new AM5 socket.

This puts me in a difficult spot as well. If I go the 5700G route, too, and
should I ever decide to buy a dedicated GPU later (and I know that it won’t
be high-end due to price and watts), then the problem will be that
lower-tier GPUs these days are PCIe 4.0×8 instead of the old 3.0×16.
Meaning: because the 5700G only supports PICe 3, the GPU is constrained to
3.0×8 and in effect loses half of its possible bandwith. (However, I’m not
sure whether that’s actually a problem or if 3.0×8 actually still has enough
bandwidth for what those GPUs can do.)

The same issue applies to the M.2 slot. If you know you will keep this CPU
for veeery long, and you want to save some $$$, a 3.0×4 SSD is the logical
choice over a 4.0×4. I just bought a 2 TB M.2 which has 3.0×4, but my board
only supports a meagre 2.0×2, which is a quarter of 3.0×4 (it’s probably the
first generation of boards that actually had a native NVMe slot). But I know
I will upgrade sooner or later, and so I went for a 3.0 SSD.

Re. chipset:
Usually, the X chipset distincts (is that a word?) itself from the B series
with features for overclockers. It also draws more power and—consequently—
requires active cooling (the mainboards have their own fan!).

But just the other day I read that there are also passive X boards now. I’m
not sure about your model and can’t look right now, as I’m sitting on the
train with a small laptop and forgot my power brick for the whole weekend. :D

> Mobo : Canada Computers say this is often bought with the CPU ;
> it says it can support PCIe 4.0, which matches the SSD ;

But not the CPU, see above. The primary M.2 slot is connected directly to
the CPU with four PCIe lanes, the other slot(s) is/are hooked up through the
chipset, which itself is connected to the CPU by another four lanes.

> I'ld like to have WIFI available, tho' I may carry on with landline.
> Memory : the mobo will accept 32 GB sticks, but I don't need them ;

RAM can only be replaced with more RAM. ;-) I also have 32 GB at the mo’.

> I've had good experiences with Kingston.

There are serveral of your mentioned Kingston 3200 around. Check if you
selected the one with the lower latency (the group of numbers like
16-18-18…). AMD graphics benefit hugely from good RAM performance.

> SSD : PCIe 4 is much faster than PCI 3 ; 1 TB is enough.

PCIe 4 is twice as fast as 3.0, but not available with the 5700G. ;-)

> Case : I'm inclined to get '19',
> but wonder if there's a serious diffence between 'ATX' vs 'ATXe' :
> any advice wb welcome.

What do you mean with “19”? If you mean a 19 inch rack, then it’s probably a
server form factor. Wikipedia [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATX] knows of
EATX, which is bigger than ATX. But I’d say it’s nothing to be concerned
about. It’s probably so small a niche that anything in that formfactor will
be prohibitively expensive and made for extreme use cases such as dual-CPU
server boards.

> Power : the summary says "700 W", but the specs say "500 W" :
> the price is a bit more than others which are 500 W
> & I can ask in the store, so I'm willing to assume "500" is a typo.

Hm… power supplies have different “rails”, meaning parallel hardware to
provide a voltage with a certain maximum current. Summing up all those rails
may be more than the unit can provide at once.

--
Grüße | Greetings | Salut | Qapla’
Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

“So, I started reading this book about anti-gravity.”
“Is it any good?” – “I can’t put it down.”

Thanx again for comments from Frank + others.
Here is a revised list of parts.
The probable list uses PCIe 4.0 , the alternative 3.0.
The former requires a graphix card, which adds $ 300 to the total cost
(all prices in CAD).

Probable :

CPU : AMD : CPAMD00136 : Ryzen 7 : 5700X : 8-Core/16-Thread : $ 379
7 nm ZEN 3 Processor : Socket AM4, 4.6 GHz boost, 36 MB Cache
no graphix : PCIe 4.0

Mobo : MBGIG00145 : Gigabyte : X570 Aorus elite WIFI : $ 220
dual PCIe 4.0 M.2 : Intel dual-band 802.11ac wireless
front USB Type C : RGB Fusion 2.0

Graphix : VCMSI00255 : MSI : Radeon RX 6500 XT MECH 4G OC : $ 309
18 Gbps , PCIE 4.0 , DP1.4 HDMI , RX 6500 XT Mech 2X 4G OC
or VCASU00335 : ASUS : Radeon RX 6500 XT OC : $ 299
PCIe 4.0, 4 GB GDDR6, HDMI 2.1, DisplayPort 1.4a,
Dual Ball Fan Bearings, All-aluminum Shroud, GPU Tweak II

Memory : MEKIT00523 : Kingston Fury Beast : 2 x 16 GB : DDR4 3200 MHz : $ 160

SSD : SSKIT00120 : Kingston KC3000 : 1 TB : PCIe Gen4 : NVMe M.2
R 7000 MB/s ; W 6000 MB/s : $ 190

HDD : HDSEA00016 : Seagate IronWolf : 4 TB : CMR :
SATA 6 Gb/s : 5900 RPM : 64 MB Cache : 3 Yr Warranty : $ 110

Case : CSDCL00015 : Deepcool D-Shield V2 ATX : Compact Mid Tower Case : $ 60
CSDCL00019 : Deepcool E-Shield : Mid Tower Chassis,
Black, Tempered Glass, 120mm Fan, Radiator Support,
E-ATX/ATX/MicroATX/MiniITX : $ 60

Power : PSTHL00007 : Thermaltake Smart White : 700 W
80 PLUS Certified Power Supply : $ 80

Total cost : $ 1508

Alternative :

CPU : CPAMD00131 : Ryzen 7 : 5700G : 8-core 16-thread : $ 388
Socket AM4 : 3,8 / 4,6 GHz : PCIe 3.0 ; Radeon Graphix Wreath Stealth

No graphix card

SSD : SSKIT00103 : Kingston : NV1 : 2 TB : NVMe M.2 : $ 185
Read: 2100 MB/s ; Write: 1700 MB/s

Total cost : $ 1203

Comment : I can afford the extra $ 300 for the much greater speed of PCI 4.
There are 2 possible graphix cards, others being more costly :
any comments welcome ; I'm willing to consider Intel instead.

--
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT ___________//___, Philip Webb
ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT `-O----------O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca