Mailing List Archive

William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 11:31 +0100, George Prowse wrote:
>> Alex Howells wrote:
>>> 2008/6/3 George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com>:
>>>> Thirded
>>> Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
>>> nominate or support nominations?
>>>
>>> Either way, all of the current Council get my nomination, plus welp
>>> gets a second.
>> Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote.
>
> Foundation members, and Gentoo Developers are not the same. I do not
> believe Council elections have anything at all to do with the
> Foundation.

Sorry, my bad. I presumed he was talking about the council
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

2008/6/4 Donnie Berkholz <dberkholz@gentoo.org>:
> On 12:07 Tue 03 Jun , Łukasz Damentko wrote:
>> Nominations aren't open yet. They will be soon (rather days than
>> weeks). But not yet. I have no idea why you guys rushed it but you
>> will have nominate again after we open if for real.
>
> That sounds like pointless bureaucracy ... is there any reason?
>
> Thanks,
> Donnie
> --
> gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

You are right. We've decided to accept those nominations that were
filed prior to us officially opening the process. To fullfill
formality, I will just renominate everybody who was nominated too
early:

So, I (re-)nominate:

welp
zlin
Ingmar
ColdWind

and ... myself, since I was nominated too. And I officially decline to
run in this election.

Regards,

Łukasz Damentko
z{h¡×¯–+-²§¶Š(® šŠX§‚X¬

Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:52:35 +0000
Ferris McCormick <fmccor@gentoo.org> kirjoitti:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> I think nominations are open. I nominate

Then I'd like to nominate (mostly same ones again)

flameeyes
vapier
dberkholz
aballier
ingmar
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

On 2008-06-05 15:34, Ryan Hill uttered these thoughts:
> On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:41:40 +0300
> Samuli Suominen <drac@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:52:35 +0000
> > Ferris McCormick <fmccor@gentoo.org> kirjoitti:
> > >
> > > I think nominations are open. I nominate
> >
> > Then I'd like to nominate (mostly same ones again)
> >
> > flameeyes
> > vapier
> > dberkholz
> > aballier
> > ingmar
>
> just picking a random mail to reply to.
>
> gentoo-project people! this is why it exists.
>
> </analretentive>

Actually, it was stated in the originating mail (starting the nomination
period) that "All nominations must be sent to the gentoo-dev mailing
list."

--
() The ASCII Ribbon Campaign - against HTML Email
/\ and proprietary formats.

William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 18:17 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:11:44 +0200
>> Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Also, I would have thought there was a requirement to have been a
>>> developer for at least a year, just like we require mentors to have
>>> been a developer for six months. Thoughts?
>>>
>> You're confusing Foundation and Council rules. For the Council, there
>> aren't any restrictions on who can nominate or who can run -- GLEP 39
>> doesn't even include the restriction on only nominating developers.
>>
>
> IMHO the Council should be written into the Foundation Bylaws. Replacing
> and deprecating GLEP 39.
>
> Which one of the first things wrt to the Council that would be mentioned
> in the Bylaws is the Council has full authority and veto power over the
> project. That means the board nor officers can dictate to the Council.
> Council remains on top of it all. Just legally declared, and with other
> rules, regulations, etc, stipulated in detail.
>
> Unlike GLEP 39 Put in a legal document, giving the Council legal power.
> Not just power per some GLEP or other unofficial doc, being used for a
> purpose other than it's intention. Much less make it easier to see and
> understand the structure of Gentoo to an outsider.
>
>
The Gentoo Foundation and the Gentoo Council are two different entities.
For further reference please refer to the FreeBSD Foundation and the
FreeBSD Project. What you're implying is that the Gentoo Foundation is
over/owns the Gentoo Council. Which is completely and categorically wrong.
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 15:35 -0400, Doug Goldstein wrote:
>
> The Gentoo Foundation and the Gentoo Council are two different entities.

But the one Gentoo

Two heads one body. Usually doesn't work for most animals or humans. One
ends up being a parasite to the other.

> For further reference please refer to the FreeBSD Foundation and the
> FreeBSD Project.

Ok

http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/about.shtml

"The FreeBSD Foundation is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization dedicated
to supporting the FreeBSD Project."

It's clear the that BSD Foundation is directly tied to the BSD project.
I am not sure what you are reading to thing otherwise.

"The FreeBSD Foundation will support both the development and the
popularization of FreeBSD, the world's best open source operating
system"

More so when in that page it goes into things like

"Development of software for FreeBSD to benefit the user and developer
community, including contract development of critical system
infrastructure, porting of closed source applications such as Java(TM)."

IMHO I would like the council to have say over matters like that with
trustees/the foundation only being a liaison.

> What you're implying is that the Gentoo Foundation is
> over/owns the Gentoo Council.

That is a issue of power, which has no bearings on what I am talking
about. I am implying the two area attached to the same body. Thus the
they should work together as a whole unit/single organization.

Not this two entities crap, one body.

> Which is completely and categorically wrong.

Provide facts to prove that.

--
William L. Thomson Jr.
amd64/Java/Trustees
Gentoo Foundation

On 15:53 Fri 06 Jun , William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/about.shtml
>
> "The FreeBSD Foundation is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization dedicated
> to supporting the FreeBSD Project."
>
> It's clear the that BSD Foundation is directly tied to the BSD project.
> I am not sure what you are reading to thing otherwise.

I looked through the articles of incorporation and the bylaws, under the
documents section of their website. Nowhere is mentioned anything
related to how the project itself is governed. It's very much a
boilerplate template saying "we're a nonprofit related to computers, and
that's about it."

Thanks,
Donnie
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 14:13 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> On 15:53 Fri 06 Jun , William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> > http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/about.shtml
> >
> > "The FreeBSD Foundation is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization dedicated
> > to supporting the FreeBSD Project."
> >
> > It's clear the that BSD Foundation is directly tied to the BSD project.
> > I am not sure what you are reading to thing otherwise.
>
> I looked through the articles of incorporation and the bylaws, under the
> documents section of their website. Nowhere is mentioned anything
> related to how the project itself is governed.

So we would be different from BSD in this regard. Are we trying to be
like others? Our current structure is unlike any others. Our entire
distro is unlike any other. So why are we trying to compare apples to
oranges?

Where is BSD's GLEP 39? Or where is their council talked about or
mentioned?

> It's very much a
> boilerplate template saying "we're a nonprofit related to computers, and
> that's about it."

Instead of all this speculation. Would you all like me to open a dialog
with the BSD folks and get details from within? With regard to how their
foundation and project relate to each other.

As for their Bylaws, if they aren't cover things we are. Is that reason
for us to omit those things from ours?

The BSD foundation doesn't seem to be accounting for sponsors services
and etc. Does that mean we should not either? Possibly but that
particular decision should be made by a Certified Public Accountant.
Which I don't think any Gentoo Developer is currently.

--
William L. Thomson Jr.
amd64/Java/Trustees
Gentoo Foundation

On 17:55 Fri 06 Jun , William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 14:13 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> > On 15:53 Fri 06 Jun , William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> > > http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/about.shtml
> > >
> > > "The FreeBSD Foundation is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization dedicated
> > > to supporting the FreeBSD Project."
> > >
> > > It's clear the that BSD Foundation is directly tied to the BSD project.
> > > I am not sure what you are reading to thing otherwise.
> >
> > I looked through the articles of incorporation and the bylaws, under the
> > documents section of their website. Nowhere is mentioned anything
> > related to how the project itself is governed.
>
> So we would be different from BSD in this regard. Are we trying to be
> like others? Our current structure is unlike any others. Our entire
> distro is unlike any other. So why are we trying to compare apples to
> oranges?

Like comparing Gentoo to a single-brained animal with multiple heads? No
comparisons are perfect, but that doesn't mean there's nothing to learn
from them because we're so unique.

> Where is BSD's GLEP 39? Or where is their council talked about or
> mentioned?

Some related pages:

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/dev-model/index.html
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/dev-model/model-orgstruct.html
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/dev-model/sect-hats.html#ROLE-CORE
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/dev-model/process-core-election.html
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/dev-model/process-reactions.html

> > It's very much a
> > boilerplate template saying "we're a nonprofit related to computers, and
> > that's about it."
>
> Instead of all this speculation. Would you all like me to open a dialog
> with the BSD folks and get details from within? With regard to how their
> foundation and project relate to each other.
>
> As for their Bylaws, if they aren't cover things we are. Is that reason
> for us to omit those things from ours?
>
> The BSD foundation doesn't seem to be accounting for sponsors services
> and etc. Does that mean we should not either? Possibly but that
> particular decision should be made by a Certified Public Accountant.
> Which I don't think any Gentoo Developer is currently.

It might be part of restricted income contributions on the profit & loss
report.

Thanks,
Donnie
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 15:23 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
>
> Like comparing Gentoo to a single-brained animal with multiple heads?

But that it is. You have two entities, that both are related to Gentoo
in some form. Overlapping membership, staff, interests, etc.

> No comparisons are perfect, but that doesn't mean there's nothing to learn
> from them because we're so unique.

I agree 100%. My logic is cherry pick what we like from each. Thus ideas
from Gnome Foundation ( paid business bull$hit "advisory" members ),
some from BSD Foundation ( dev travel grants, equipment/infra funding ),
and some from Debian ( Debconf )

> It might be part of restricted income contributions on the profit & loss
> report.

I believe it has to be accounted for in some form as "in kind"
donations. Non tangible goods and services that still have a value.
Definitely if we receive them on a re-occurring basis. Even more so if
other companies are using that as write off as a charitable expenses.
IRS will want to compare what they are deducting is showing up on the
other end. :)

--
William L. Thomson Jr.
amd64/Java/Trustees
Gentoo Foundation

Can you take this off-topic thread to the appropriate list? I'm pretty
tired with hearing the Foundation's self-promotional comments on how
important it is to development on this list. You guys have your own
list for that crap, as it is.

Thanks,

--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 9:44 AM, Fernando J. Pereda <ferdy@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> I'd like to nominate:
>
> ColdWind
>

ferdy, thanks for the nomination.

astinus, thanks for your support and inspiration, which almost
convinced me for running for Council.

I decline.

Regards,
--
Santiago M. Mola
Jabber ID: cooldwind@gmail.com
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

2008/6/7 Santiago M. Mola <coldwind@gentoo.org>:
>
> ferdy, thanks for the nomination.
>
> astinus, thanks for your support and inspiration, which almost
> convinced me for running for Council.

Any time :) In which case I guess maybe Jeroen Roovers (rej / jer)
wants that spot on the ticket? ;) I'd like to nominate him too.
Looks like we'll have plenty of choice this time around, which can
only be a good thing.

Alex
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:21:11 +0100
"Alex Howells" <astinus@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Any time :) In which case I guess maybe Jeroen Roovers (rej / jer)
> wants that spot on the ticket? ;) I'd like to nominate him too.
> Looks like we'll have plenty of choice this time around, which can
> only be a good thing.

Er, I accept. Thanks.


Kind regards,
JeR
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

On 7 Jun 2008, at 21:21, Alex Howells wrote:

> 2008/6/7 Santiago M. Mola <coldwind@gentoo.org>:
>>
>> ferdy, thanks for the nomination.
>>
>> astinus, thanks for your support and inspiration, which almost
>> convinced me for running for Council.
>
> Any time :) In which case I guess maybe Jeroen Roovers (rej / jer)
> wants that spot on the ticket? ;) I'd like to nominate him too.
> Looks like we'll have plenty of choice this time around, which can
> only be a good thing.

Except you'd rather veto the ones you don't like. Hehe... It must suck
being you, wanting to veto people and not being able to do it :)

- ferdy
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

2008/6/7 Fernando J. Pereda <ferdy@gentoo.org>:
> Except you'd rather veto the ones you don't like. Hehe... It must suck being
> you, wanting to veto people and not being able to do it :)

I trust the masses to do the sensible thing and not vote for people
who'd be bad for the project. Hopefully that means we get the Council
from last year, with one or two new faces?
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

On 8 Jun 2008, at 14:34, Alex Howells wrote:

> 2008/6/7 Fernando J. Pereda <ferdy@gentoo.org>:
>> Except you'd rather veto the ones you don't like. Hehe... It must
>> suck being
>> you, wanting to veto people and not being able to do it :)
>
> I trust the masses to do the sensible thing and not vote for people
> who'd be bad for the project. Hopefully that means we get the Council
> from last year, with one or two new faces?

Hopefully everyone would be 'new' and only a couple of people (if not
less) repeat. This council hasn't really done anything right.

- ferdy

--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

> >> Except you'd rather veto the ones you don't like. Hehe... It must
> >> suck being
> >> you, wanting to veto people and not being able to do it :)
> >
> > I trust the masses to do the sensible thing and not vote for people
> > who'd be bad for the project. Hopefully that means we get the Council
> > from last year, with one or two new faces?
>
> Hopefully everyone would be 'new' and only a couple of people (if not
> less) repeat. This council hasn't really done anything right.

I think we are losing site of the point here, that being council nominations
and soliciting those nominees for their views on matters that any of us find
relevant.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but how we share those opinions
is a privilege not a right. Read: insults, attacks, and abrasive behavior
are not acceptable and DevRel will not tolerate this. I encourage someone to
talk about what they feel the next council could do better, or even list
examples where they feel our current council went wrong, in their eyes; but
do so in a manner that provokes civil discussion so we may all be the better
for it.


Kind regards,
Christina Fullam
Gentoo Developer Relations Lead | Gentoo Public Relations




--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:41:40 +0300
Samuli Suominen <drac@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:52:35 +0000
> Ferris McCormick <fmccor@gentoo.org> kirjoitti:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> >
> > I think nominations are open. I nominate
>
> Then I'd like to nominate (mostly same ones again)
[..]
> aballier

Thanks, but I decline. Considering all the nominee, I think there are
enough people probably more able than I am to run a council. My habit
of not getting involved in endless discussions would have probably not
helped to get elected anyway ;) Moreover, with all the recent
threads here, I don't think I want to be in the group that will have to
take the decisions.

Regards,

Alexis.

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:11:44 +0200
Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:46:53 +0100
> George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Correct. Only developers can vote but anyone can nominate:
> >
> > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
> > 6. Voting Process
> >
> > * Council elections generally happen once a year
> > <snip>
> > * Anyone can nominate (nominating yourself is OK)
>
> Maybe the Council should address that. Who is "anyone"? Developers,
> Gentoo staff or _really_ anyone?

AFAIR nominating has always been open to anyone, dev and user
alike.


--
fonts, gcc-porting, by design, by neglect
mips, treecleaner, for a fact or just for effect
wxwidgets @ gentoo EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:41:40 +0300
Samuli Suominen <drac@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:52:35 +0000
> Ferris McCormick <fmccor@gentoo.org> kirjoitti:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> >
> > I think nominations are open. I nominate
>
> Then I'd like to nominate (mostly same ones again)
>
> flameeyes
> vapier
> dberkholz
> aballier
> ingmar

just picking a random mail to reply to.

gentoo-project people! this is why it exists.

</analretentive>

--
fonts, gcc-porting, by design, by neglect
mips, treecleaner, for a fact or just for effect
wxwidgets @ gentoo EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:08:24 +0200
Patrick Börjesson <psychotical@lavabit.com> wrote:

> > just picking a random mail to reply to.
> >
> > gentoo-project people! this is why it exists.
> >
> > </analretentive>
>
> Actually, it was stated in the originating mail (starting the
> nomination period) that "All nominations must be sent to the
> gentoo-dev mailing list."

D'oh. My mistake. ;)

--
fonts, gcc-porting, by design, by neglect
mips, treecleaner, for a fact or just for effect
wxwidgets @ gentoo EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662