Mailing List Archive

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Ferris McCormick <fmccor@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I think nominations are open. I nominate
> rane
> welp
> zlin

Alright. Then I'll nominate all members of the current council. In
alphabetical order:
amne
betelgeuse
dberkholz
flameeyes
jokey
lu_zero
vapier

Denis.
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Denis Dupeyron wrote:
> Alright. Then I'll nominate all members of the current council. In
> alphabetical order:
> amne
> betelgeuse
> dberkholz
> flameeyes
> jokey
> lu_zero
> vapier

Seconded.

(Also...it's voting time already? Can't believe it's already been a year.)

Josh Saddler wrote:
> Denis Dupeyron wrote:
>> Alright. Then I'll nominate all members of the current council. In
>> alphabetical order:
>> amne
>> betelgeuse
>> dberkholz
>> flameeyes
>> jokey
>> lu_zero
>> vapier
>
> Seconded.
>
Thirded
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2008/6/3 Ferris McCormick <fmccor@gentoo.org>:
> I think nominations are open.

Not yet.
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Josh Saddler <nightmorph@gentoo.org> posted 4844ED2D.4030009@gentoo.org,
excerpted below, on Tue, 03 Jun 2008 00:05:17 -0700:

> (Also...it's voting time already? Can't believe it's already been a
> year.)

It hasn't been... but rather than bring politics into the discussion
here, I'll simply refer you to the council and/or project groups/lists.

Or was that missing the <sarcasm> or <joke> tags. =8^)

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2008/6/3 George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com>:
> Thirded

Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
nominate or support nominations?

Either way, all of the current Council get my nomination, plus welp
gets a second.
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On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Alex Howells <astinus@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
> nominate or support nominations?
>
> Either way, all of the current Council get my nomination, plus welp
> gets a second.

Someone can clarify, but don't you need nominations to be open to
nominate people?
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2008/6/3 Richard Brown <mynamewasgone@gmail.com>:
> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Alex Howells <astinus@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
>> nominate or support nominations?
>>
>> Either way, all of the current Council get my nomination, plus welp
>> gets a second.
>
> Someone can clarify, but don't you need nominations to be open to
> nominate people?

Nominations aren't open yet. They will be soon (rather days than
weeks). But not yet. I have no idea why you guys rushed it but you
will have nominate again after we open if for real.

--

Łukasz Damentko
žÚ(uëåŠËléí¢Š+‚f¢–)à–+-

Alex Howells wrote:
> 2008/6/3 George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com>:
>> Thirded
>
> Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
> nominate or support nominations?
>
> Either way, all of the current Council get my nomination, plus welp
> gets a second.

Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote.
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>>>>> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008, George Prowse wrote:

>> Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
>> nominate or support nominations?
>>
>> [...]

> Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote.

GLEP 39 says something else:

| * Council members will be chosen by a general election of all devs
| once per year.

Ulrich
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Ferris McCormick wrote:
|
| I think nominations are open. I nominate
| rane
| welp
| zlin
|
| I think I've spelt all of them correctly and that all three are are
| qualified.
|
| Regards,
| Ferris
éí¢‡^¾X¬¶ÈžÚ(¢¸&j)bž bst==

As Łukasz replied, the election process hasn't started yet. There will
be an official announcement about it, before nominations will be accepted.
We will clarify all rules for the voting until then.

- --
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / SPARC / KDE
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Ulrich Mueller wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008, George Prowse wrote:
>
>>> Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
>>> nominate or support nominations?
>>>
>>> [...]
>
>> Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote.
>
> GLEP 39 says something else:
>
> | * Council members will be chosen by a general election of all devs
> | once per year.
>
> Ulrich

Correct. Only developers can vote but anyone can nominate:

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
6. Voting Process

* Council elections generally happen once a year
<snip>
* Anyone can nominate (nominating yourself is OK)

I have voted in the previous 3 elections, 2 of my nominations accepted
in 2006 :)

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/voting-logs/council-2006-nominees.xml
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On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:46:53 +0100
George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com> wrote:

> Correct. Only developers can vote but anyone can nominate:
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
> 6. Voting Process
>
> * Council elections generally happen once a year
> <snip>
> * Anyone can nominate (nominating yourself is OK)

Maybe the Council should address that. Who is "anyone"? Developers,
Gentoo staff or _really_ anyone?

Also, I would have thought there was a requirement to have been a
developer for at least a year, just like we require mentors to have
been a developer for six months. Thoughts?


Kind regards,
JeR
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On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:11:44 +0200
Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Also, I would have thought there was a requirement to have been a
> developer for at least a year, just like we require mentors to have
> been a developer for six months. Thoughts?

You're confusing Foundation and Council rules. For the Council, there
aren't any restrictions on who can nominate or who can run -- GLEP 39
doesn't even include the restriction on only nominating developers.

--
Ciaran McCreesh

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:17:05 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:11:44 +0200
> Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Also, I would have thought there was a requirement to have been a
> > developer for at least a year, just like we require mentors to have
> > been a developer for six months. Thoughts?
>
> You're confusing Foundation and Council rules.

I'm not confusing anything. I said I would have thought there was such
a requirement, which isn't the same as saying I thought there was such
a requirement. What I meant to say was - I think there should be such a
requirement.


JeR
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On 12:07 Tue 03 Jun , Łukasz Damentko wrote:
> Nominations aren't open yet. They will be soon (rather days than
> weeks). But not yet. I have no idea why you guys rushed it but you
> will have nominate again after we open if for real.

That sounds like pointless bureaucracy ... is there any reason?

Thanks,
Donnie
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Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> posted
20080603222620.71c89a1e@halo.dirtyepic.sk.ca, excerpted below, on Tue, 03
Jun 2008 22:26:20 -0600:

> AFAIR nominating has always been open to anyone, dev and user alike.

Which does make sense. Giving the community nomination power gives them
some input, while limiting the actual power and damage potential, since
they can't vote on their nominees, only devs do. As with any nominee, if
the devs don't like them, they simply vote for someone else. No harm
done unless the devs consent to it.

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"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman

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Duncan wrote:
> Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> posted
> 20080603222620.71c89a1e@halo.dirtyepic.sk.ca, excerpted below, on Tue, 03
> Jun 2008 22:26:20 -0600:
>
>> AFAIR nominating has always been open to anyone, dev and user alike.
>
> Which does make sense. Giving the community nomination power gives them
> some input, while limiting the actual power and damage potential, since
> they can't vote on their nominees, only devs do. As with any nominee, if
> the devs don't like them, they simply vote for someone else. No harm
> done unless the devs consent to it.
>

Agreed, but since there is a trend towards taking everything literally
these days I do want to point out that this opens up a DoS attack - you
could end up with a ballot 40 miles long if people use throwaway email
addresses to make and second and accept nominations.

Normally I'd just assume that if this were to happen common sense would
prevail and these nominations would be excluded, but since there is a
trend towards policy-trumps-sense perhaps the policy should be that
anybody can nominate, but only devs can second a nomination? After all,
if not even one dev supports a nomination what is the point of putting
it on a ballot that only devs vote on? We could call the policy
G:ACNBDMS (Gentoo: Anybody can nominate but devs must second) in tribute
to another project where ability to quote policy is becoming more
important than ability to add value... :)
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Richard Freeman wrote:
| Duncan wrote:
|> Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> posted
|> 20080603222620.71c89a1e@halo.dirtyepic.sk.ca, excerpted below, on
|> Tue, 03
|> Jun 2008 22:26:20 -0600:
|>
|>> AFAIR nominating has always been open to anyone, dev and user alike.
|>
|> Which does make sense. Giving the community nomination power gives
|> them some input, while limiting the actual power and damage potential,
|> since they can't vote on their nominees, only devs do. As with any
|> nominee, if the devs don't like them, they simply vote for someone
|> else. No harm done unless the devs consent to it.
|>
|
| Agreed, but since there is a trend towards taking everything literally
| these days I do want to point out that this opens up a DoS attack - you
| could end up with a ballot 40 miles long if people use throwaway email
| addresses to make and second and accept nominations.
|

Richard,

you're forgetting that only devs can be nominated and that one has to
accept a nomination to be part of the ballot. At most, you could have
the total number of devs on the ballot and that is something you can't
prevent.

| Normally I'd just assume that if this were to happen common sense would
| prevail and these nominations would be excluded, but since there is a
| trend towards policy-trumps-sense perhaps the policy should be that
| anybody can nominate, but only devs can second a nomination? After all,
| if not even one dev supports a nomination what is the point of putting
| it on a ballot that only devs vote on? We could call the policy
| G:ACNBDMS (Gentoo: Anybody can nominate but devs must second) in tribute
| to another project where ability to quote policy is becoming more
| important than ability to add value... :)

No need to complex rules here. See above point.

- --
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / SPARC / KDE
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On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 11:31 +0100, George Prowse wrote:
> Alex Howells wrote:
> > 2008/6/3 George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com>:
> >> Thirded
> >
> > Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
> > nominate or support nominations?
> >
> > Either way, all of the current Council get my nomination, plus welp
> > gets a second.
>
> Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote.

Foundation members, and Gentoo Developers are not the same. I do not
believe Council elections have anything at all to do with the
Foundation.

There are similar stipulations for time on board, etc before one can
vote in either Foundation or Council elections/votes. But they are
different. One needs to only be a developer, that has met time
requirements, to vote for Council. Pretty sure same stipulations apply
to running for Council position.

At this time Foundation Membership has nothing do with developer status,
or qualifications to vote in Council elections. In fact I believe a
current Gentoo Developer could elect to not be a member of the
foundation. They would still retain all status and rights as a
developer. Including voting rights on any vote or election put forth by
any entity Council, etc other than the Foundation to it's members.

--
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amd64/Java/Trustees
Gentoo Foundation

On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 18:17 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:11:44 +0200
> Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Also, I would have thought there was a requirement to have been a
> > developer for at least a year, just like we require mentors to have
> > been a developer for six months. Thoughts?
>
> You're confusing Foundation and Council rules. For the Council, there
> aren't any restrictions on who can nominate or who can run -- GLEP 39
> doesn't even include the restriction on only nominating developers.

IMHO the Council should be written into the Foundation Bylaws. Replacing
and deprecating GLEP 39.

Which one of the first things wrt to the Council that would be mentioned
in the Bylaws is the Council has full authority and veto power over the
project. That means the board nor officers can dictate to the Council.
Council remains on top of it all. Just legally declared, and with other
rules, regulations, etc, stipulated in detail.

Unlike GLEP 39 Put in a legal document, giving the Council legal power.
Not just power per some GLEP or other unofficial doc, being used for a
purpose other than it's intention. Much less make it easier to see and
understand the structure of Gentoo to an outsider.

--
William L. Thomson Jr.
amd64/Java/Trustees
Gentoo Foundation

William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> Which one of the first things wrt to the Council that would be mentioned
> in the Bylaws is the Council has full authority and veto power over the
> project. That means the board nor officers can dictate to the Council.
> Council remains on top of it all. Just legally declared, and with other
> rules, regulations, etc, stipulated in detail.
>

Would this run into any kinds of legal issues? Essentially you're
creating a non-profit corporation whose governance is subject to what is
effectively a board of directors that is very loosely defined/ elected/
etc. I'd think that this would run into issues legally, but I suppose
that being a non-public company it might not be an issue. If you're not
already familiar with such things you might want to talk to a lawyer.

I'm torn on this. In theory the council and trustees/foundation should
be well-coordinated and they're really just two parts of a single
effort. However, for legal reasons the money-handling parts of the
distro are subject to a lot of controls that need not apply to
everything else. If we mix them we either need to formalize more of
what happens, or potentially risk running into legal issues.

If a lawyer doesn't see this as a problem then just disregard everything
above. A little more formality might not kill the project, but on the
other hand we don't want to create too many barriers to council members
who are volunteers. In a more significant corporation like the Red
Cross I suspect that board members would be paid to attend meetings.
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Speaking more officially, less personal opinion.

On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 18:49 -0400, Richard Freeman wrote:
>
> Would this run into any kinds of legal issues?

Should prevent any.

> If you're not
> already familiar with such things you might want to talk to a lawyer.

As it pertains we will likely have counsel review the final Bylaws. We
will also solicit advice from counsel when needed regarding future
Bylaws revisions or other matters.

> I'm torn on this. In theory the council and trustees/foundation should
> be well-coordinated and they're really just two parts of a single
> effort.

That's the idea. Two heads, thinking doing different things
uncoordinated on same body? :)

> If we mix them we either need to formalize more of
> what happens, or potentially risk running into legal issues.

Really it's a paper formality. Daily operations do not change. Just
clarification of duties and separation on paper. In one document :)

--
William L. Thomson Jr.
amd64/Java/Trustees
Gentoo Foundation

On 3 Jun 2008, at 07:52, Ferris McCormick wrote:
> I think nominations are open.

I'd like to nominate:

Ingmar
ColdWind

- ferdy
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