Mailing List Archive

Steve Long wrote:
> Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote:
>> Perhaps we also need to make it more clear where users can ask such
>> Gentoo-specific questions about specific packages, so they don't need to
>> go and annoy upstream. Associate an irc-channel with each package. Most
>> packages have a herd associated with them which can belong to a project
>> which could have an irc-channel where the relevant developers could be
>> found and which can put common problems in its topic. Fallback for when no
>> appropriate irc-channel can be found would be #gentoo. Currently it is
>> usually difficult to find such irc-channels or to know if there is none
>> and that your only option is #gentoo or #$upstream. It would also make it
>> easier for users to start helping developers and eventually become
>> developers themselves, since they won't need to search for a point of
>> entry anymore.
>>
> I think it's a great idea to have an irc-channel associated with each herd/
> package. Certainly it took me a while to find #gentoo-desktop which is
> busier than #gentoo-kde.
>
> The fallback should be #gentoo-dev-help however, wrt to questions about
> changing ebuilds, imo.
>
>
If you want to know how to get a better relationship with users... ask them!
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 21:02:46 +0100
George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you want to know how to get a better relationship with users...
> ask them!

Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative
of the user base in general.

--
Ciaran McCreesh

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:36:34 +0100
Steve Long <slong@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:

> Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote:
> > Perhaps we also need to make it more clear where users can ask such
> > Gentoo-specific questions about specific packages, so they don't
> > need to go and annoy upstream.

In #gentoo we *regularly* send users upstream. We tend *not* to refer
them to #upstream when it's a matter of installation, which would
always be Gentoo's turf and therefore our responsibility. We only
suggest users seek help upstream when they are grappling with runtime
configuration issues or issues that are too complex to handle in a busy
channel.

> > Associate an irc-channel with each package.

Associate how? Sounds like a lot of work at the least and a lot of
cruft at the worst.

> > Most packages have a herd associated with them which can
> > belong to a project which could have an irc-channel where the
> > relevant developers could be found and which can put common
> > problems in its topic.

That is the way things are now. Formalising this seems redundant.

> > Fallback for when no appropriate irc-channel can be found would be
> > #gentoo.

#gentoo is and always has been the fallback. :)

> > Currently it is usually difficult to find such irc-channels or to
> > know if there is none and that your only option is #gentoo or
> > #$upstream.

No problem. Just come and help out in #gentoo. Lots of users giving
lots of other users helpful suggestions as to how and where they can
get their problems solved. We don't need metastructures, just people
talking to each other.

> I think it's a great idea to have an irc-channel associated with each
> herd/ package.

At least from the IRC side, it just doesn't work that way. You can open
channels all you like and find that nobody ever goes there, and
instead everybody turns up in the same channel. :)

What most people do is drop a question in #gentoo. If an issue might
take too much time to resolve in #gentoo, we suggest other channels to
ask in, mainly those mentioned in [1].

> Certainly it took me a while to find #gentoo-desktop which is busier
> than #gentoo-kde.

You could have asked in #gentoo. :)

> The fallback should be #gentoo-dev-help however, wrt to questions
> about changing ebuilds, imo.

The current fallback is #gentoo and I cannot see how you could ever
change that. You cannot force people to (not) use certain channels and
you cannot force them to use/follow whatever link it is you are putting
in place.

The solution to the problem of upstream only wanting to
talk about compile time configuration issues with people who know
sufficiently well what they are doing, i.e. developers, is not a
technical one, but a social one. If you want to help solve this
problem, just talk to people, help out in #gentoo, and educate both
users and upstream about the way Gentoo (Linux) and Portage work, and
more generally, how to find the information you need without pissing
everybody off. :)


Kind regards,
JeR


[1] http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/irc.xml
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gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 21:02:46 +0100
> George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If you want to know how to get a better relationship with users...
>> ask them!
>
> Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative
> of the user base in general.
>
that is why the pronoun "them" is a plural...
--
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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 21:02:46 +0100
> George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If you want to know how to get a better relationship with users...
>> ask them!
>>
>
> Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative
> of the user base in general.
>
>

So if ten users reply then, are all ten individually wrong too? You
have to start somewhere. This is some of what users are complaining
about is users not being able to connect with the devs, other higher ups
and have a little say over where Gentoo is going or maybe has been so
far.. Also note, he didn't say to ask just one, he said "them" which
means more than one person and quite possibly all that wish to reply. I
just decided to grow a pair today and speak up.

I wish ALL users would vote in a poll on the forums as to what we the
users want and what direction we want Gentoo to go in. Given the
current climate, which is improving by the way, I'm not expecting that
to happen anytime soon. I doubt anyone is brave enough to start one or
that enough would participate either. It's no different than elections
here in the US, people gripe but most of the gripers don't vote.

If this poll ever does happen, please post a link. I'd be glad to
participate.

Dale

:-) :-) :-)

On Thu, 2007-07-19 at 15:45 -0500, Dale wrote:
> I just decided to grow a pair today and speak up.

That right there is the most important thing you could have done. I hope
more users and devs decide to speak up about things.

Thanks,

Seemant

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:45:46 -0500
Dale <dalek1967@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative
> > of the user base in general.
>
> So if ten users reply then, are all ten individually wrong too?

Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not see
the question or not respond. Those that both see the question and take
time to respond are highly atypical.

> I wish ALL users would vote in a poll on the forums

That wouldn't tell you what all users want though. It would tell you
what forum users who take the time to respond to a poll want. Again,
not a representative sample. And that's the issue at hand -- Gentoo has
an extremely hard time delivering information to most users. Getting
information back is even trickier. The set of people who respond is
heavily skewed towards better-informed users who have time to seek out
and participate in that kind of questioning.

> as to what we the users want and what direction we want Gentoo to go
> in.

I want guaranteed total stability, instantly available updates,
guaranteed backwards compatibility, the ability to install any package
from source using my configuration of choice in under fifteen seconds
and a herd of nubile bisexual redheads. Can Gentoo deliver that?

> It's no different than elections here in the US, people gripe but
> most of the gripers don't vote.

Do you really think it would make any difference if they did? All it
would do is lend credibility to the process, and provide people with
the argument "well you voted so you agree to accept the decision of
the majority".

--
Ciaran McCreesh

On Thursday, 19. July 2007 22:39, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
> > Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote:
> > > Associate an irc-channel with each package.
> Associate how? Sounds like a lot of work at the least and a lot of
> cruft at the worst.

It could be included in the herds.xml:

<herd>
<name>kde</name>
<email>kde@gentoo.org</email>
<description>KDE and related packages</description>
<irc>irc://irc.freenode.net/#gentoo-kde</irc>
<irc>irc://irc.freenode.net/#gentoo-desktop</irc>
<maintainer>
<email>caleb@gentoo.org</email>
</maintainer>
...
</herd>

This way, it would not cruft any packages. Still for packages where a
certain group of people maintain, it would show where to find them and
other users.

Where could it be displayed to users? I mean, herdstat of course, but
somehow the info would have to reach Joe User, too.

-R.
--
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On Thu, 2007-07-19 at 21:59 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

> The set of people who respond is
> heavily skewed towards better-informed users who have time to seek out
> and participate in that kind of questioning.

Fair point, but the more better-informed users we have, the better it is
for everyone in general.


> I want guaranteed total stability, instantly available updates,
> guaranteed backwards compatibility, the ability to install any package
> from source using my configuration of choice in under fifteen seconds
> and a herd of nubile bisexual redheads. Can Gentoo deliver that?

We can do 4 out of 6, haven't you seen the commit logs?

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:45:46 -0500
> Dale <dalek1967@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>>> Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative
>>> of the user base in general.
>> So if ten users reply then, are all ten individually wrong too?
>
> Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not see
> the question or not respond. Those that both see the question and take
> time to respond are highly atypical.

If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers you
would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo has,
you would then get the opinions of the majority of users.
>
>> I wish ALL users would vote in a poll on the forums
>
> That wouldn't tell you what all users want though. It would tell you
> what forum users who take the time to respond to a poll want. Again,
> not a representative sample. And that's the issue at hand -- Gentoo has
> an extremely hard time delivering information to most users. Getting
> information back is even trickier. The set of people who respond is
> heavily skewed towards better-informed users who have time to seek out
> and participate in that kind of questioning.

Ahhhhh, now I see! The fact that we would get answers from some users is
the reason why it shouldn't be done
>
>> as to what we the users want and what direction we want Gentoo to go
>> in.
>
> I want guaranteed total stability, instantly available updates,
> guaranteed backwards compatibility, the ability to install any package
> from source using my configuration of choice in under fifteen seconds
> and a herd of nubile bisexual redheads. Can Gentoo deliver that?

Irrelevant conclusion
>
>> It's no different than elections here in the US, people gripe but
>> most of the gripers don't vote.
>
> Do you really think it would make any difference if they did? All it
> would do is lend credibility to the process, and provide people with
> the argument "well you voted so you agree to accept the decision of
> the majority".
>
It would make a difference in the relations between users and developers.

Being a user yourself, why are you so against yourself having a say?
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:22:19 +0100
George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not
> > see the question or not respond. Those that both see the question
> > and take time to respond are highly atypical.
>
> If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers
> you would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo
> has, you would then get the opinions of the majority of users.

No, you'd still be way off. You'd still only get the opinions of users
who actively monitor Gentoo communication channels. It's well
established from the fallout of previous changes that no matter how
widely something is communicated, most people won't see it until their
system breaks and they try to find out why.

> >> I wish ALL users would vote in a poll on the forums
> >
> > That wouldn't tell you what all users want though. It would tell you
> > what forum users who take the time to respond to a poll want. Again,
> > not a representative sample. And that's the issue at hand -- Gentoo
> > has an extremely hard time delivering information to most users.
> > Getting information back is even trickier. The set of people who
> > respond is heavily skewed towards better-informed users who have
> > time to seek out and participate in that kind of questioning.
>
> Ahhhhh, now I see! The fact that we would get answers from some users
> is the reason why it shouldn't be done

No no. The fact that some people would use those answers to make design
decisions is why it shouldn't be done.

> >> as to what we the users want and what direction we want Gentoo to
> >> go in.
> >
> > I want guaranteed total stability, instantly available updates,
> > guaranteed backwards compatibility, the ability to install any
> > package from source using my configuration of choice in under
> > fifteen seconds and a herd of nubile bisexual redheads. Can Gentoo
> > deliver that?
>
> Irrelevant conclusion

Not at all. What users *want* is something that can't be done. Most
users don't have the technical knowledge to realise that what they want
is impossible. Asking users will thus merely get a long list of
impossible goals.

> >> It's no different than elections here in the US, people gripe but
> >> most of the gripers don't vote.
> >
> > Do you really think it would make any difference if they did? All it
> > would do is lend credibility to the process, and provide people with
> > the argument "well you voted so you agree to accept the decision of
> > the majority".
>
> It would make a difference in the relations between users and
> developers.

Yes, lots of users would be extremely annoyed when they're told "sorry,
we're not going to deliver all those things you asked for".

> Being a user yourself, why are you so against yourself having a say?

I have a say, as does anyone else who feels like contributing. Were
things moved to a poll, no-one would have a say at all.

--
Ciaran McCreesh

On 7/19/07, Marijn Schouten (hkBst) <hkBst@gentoo.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> joshua jackson wrote:
> > Jakub Moc wrote:
> >> Petteri Rýty napsal(a):
> >>> Or just do it via package.use in profiles until IUSE defaults are
> >>> implemented.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Petteri
> >> As noted before, they are implemented, just not allowed in the tree.
> >> Plus, what vapier said, this info belongs to the ebuilds, not to profiles.
> >
> >> Wrt pidgin - seriously, what's the big issue here? Users can't use
> >> emerge -pv output and determine what they want, or? Will we bloat the
> >> profiles everytime someone forgets to enable a flag and goes complain
> >> upstream about a 'missing' feature?
> >
> >
> >
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >> !DSPAM:469f3b40137571336712104!
> > Honestly..this is not something to get picky over jakub. Upstream was
> > nice and actually came and politely asked us to change the defaults to
> > what most people would consider sane (all protocols by default). As I
> > think most people emerging pidgin..would like to use any protocol by
> > default..not go..hey I don't have yahoo, I should check my use flags.
> > Which obviously hasn't happened as users pop up in #pidgin to ask why
> > the heck there isn't a yahoo account available.
> >
> > This should be a nothing change to do. Its also working with upstream
> > and maintaining some good relationships here..and or help improve them
> > in general. That should in fact you know...be part of our goals....to
> > improve communications between Gentoo and other projects.
>
> Perhaps we also need to make it more clear where users can ask such
> Gentoo-specific questions about specific packages, so they don't need to go
> and annoy upstream. Associate an irc-channel with each package. Most packages
> have a herd associated with them which can belong to a project which could
> have an irc-channel where the relevant developers could be found and which can
> put common problems in its topic. Fallback for when no appropriate irc-channel
> can be found would be #gentoo. Currently it is usually difficult to find such
> irc-channels or to know if there is none and that your only option is #gentoo
> or #$upstream. It would also make it easier for users to start helping
> developers and eventually become developers themselves, since they won't need
> to search for a point of entry anymore.

Not sure if this fits in to what you're talking about, but I do know
that as myself a "would like to me maintainer someday", I'm somewhat
lost as to knowing how I can get involved and who I need to talk to.

Eric


> Marijn
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> cOnwaXHjD8aDvJQ+XShHQ7E=
> =dfna
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


--
http://aluink.blogspot.com

--
"...indexable arrays, which may be thought of as functions whose
domains are isomorphic to contiguous subsets of the integers."
--Haskell 98 Library Report
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<snip everything>
not technical, take it to -project.
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=vuLo
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George Prowse wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:45:46 -0500
>> Dale <dalek1967@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>>>> Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative
>>>> of the user base in general.
>>> So if ten users reply then, are all ten individually wrong too?
>>
>> Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not see
>> the question or not respond. Those that both see the question and take
>> time to respond are highly atypical.
>
> If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers you
> would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo has,
> you would then get the opinions of the majority of users.

That is why I asked for a link to be placed here in the mailing list. I
don't go to the forums very often, unless I have a problem and am trying
to find a fix before asking on Gentoo user. If you or someone placed a
link here then more people would be represented. There will never be a
poll that all Gentoo users will vote in and for those that don't vote,
they just have to deal with the leaders that others pick. That is the
price for not voting for someone else.
> < SNIP >
>>
>>> as to what we the users want and what direction we want Gentoo to go
>>> in.
>>
>> I want guaranteed total stability, instantly available updates,
>> guaranteed backwards compatibility, the ability to install any package
>> from source using my configuration of choice in under fifteen seconds
>> and a herd of nubile bisexual redheads. Can Gentoo deliver that?
>
> Irrelevant conclusion

I agree but it is a good suggestion. I am recently single. ;-) Can I
file a bug for a new lady friend? It can't be any worse than the liar I
just got rid of.
>>
>>> It's no different than elections here in the US, people gripe but
>>> most of the gripers don't vote.
>>
>> Do you really think it would make any difference if they did? All it
>> would do is lend credibility to the process, and provide people with
>> the argument "well you voted so you agree to accept the decision of
>> the majority".
>>
> It would make a difference in the relations between users and developers.
>
> Being a user yourself, why are you so against yourself having a say?

Actually, sometimes the minority is sometimes right. I have seen posts
from you, Ciaran, that I completely agree with even when everybody else,
or most everybody else, thinks you are wrong. A lot of the time I see
your point but really don't have the knowledge of the subject to agree
or disagree publicly. So, sometimes it's not the number that matters.
I think it is having a LARGE number of people participating that matters
and a good group of people to weigh all the options and find the best
solution. Look at how the proctors thing turned out. How many people,
I seem to recall you being against it too Ciaran, were against that and
it turned out they were right. Proctors are gone, the COC is somewhere
and they are trying to find a better answer.

Now the new deal is meeting the same resistance just like the proctors
and I suspect it will fail too. Gentoo needs to listen to the people.
Some people need to grow thicker skin and not take offense so easily and
some need to know when not to say anything and just let a subject drop.
Something needs to improve and since I am not in the loop, I really have
no idea what that change needs to be. I just know that taking the users
out of it is not the way to go. It makes Mandrake look like a better
option then and I'm sure a lot of others will find their solution elsewhere.

My $0.02 worth.

Dale

:-) :-)
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:22:19 +0100
> George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not
>>> see the question or not respond. Those that both see the question
>>> and take time to respond are highly atypical.
>> If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers
>> you would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo
>> has, you would then get the opinions of the majority of users.
>
> No, you'd still be way off. You'd still only get the opinions of users
> who actively monitor Gentoo communication channels. It's well
> established from the fallout of previous changes that no matter how
> widely something is communicated, most people won't see it until their
> system breaks and they try to find out why.

So you think nothing should be done because some people don't interact
in the Gentoo communication channels?
>
>>>> I wish ALL users would vote in a poll on the forums
>>> That wouldn't tell you what all users want though. It would tell you
>>> what forum users who take the time to respond to a poll want. Again,
>>> not a representative sample. And that's the issue at hand -- Gentoo
>>> has an extremely hard time delivering information to most users.
>>> Getting information back is even trickier. The set of people who
>>> respond is heavily skewed towards better-informed users who have
>>> time to seek out and participate in that kind of questioning.
>> Ahhhhh, now I see! The fact that we would get answers from some users
>> is the reason why it shouldn't be done
>
> No no. The fact that some people would use those answers to make design
> decisions is why it shouldn't be done.

So those people that would reply would make wrong
suggestions/answers/whatever..

Thats a pretty bold comment when one of the main Off The Wall posters
codes rocket propulsion software for the British Government.
>
>>>> as to what we the users want and what direction we want Gentoo to
>>>> go in.
>>> I want guaranteed total stability, instantly available updates,
>>> guaranteed backwards compatibility, the ability to install any
>>> package from source using my configuration of choice in under
>>> fifteen seconds and a herd of nubile bisexual redheads. Can Gentoo
>>> deliver that?
>> Irrelevant conclusion
>
> Not at all. What users *want* is something that can't be done. Most
> users don't have the technical knowledge to realise that what they want
> is impossible. Asking users will thus merely get a long list of
> impossible goals.

People at Gentoo tend to know what they would like, if they suggest
something that is unobtainable and are given reasons why, 2 things would
happen:

1. They would have a greater respect for the developers for actually trying.
2. They would have knowlege to be able to suggest an alternative.
>
>>>> It's no different than elections here in the US, people gripe but
>>>> most of the gripers don't vote.
>>> Do you really think it would make any difference if they did? All it
>>> would do is lend credibility to the process, and provide people with
>>> the argument "well you voted so you agree to accept the decision of
>>> the majority".
>> It would make a difference in the relations between users and
>> developers.
>
> Yes, lots of users would be extremely annoyed when they're told "sorry,
> we're not going to deliver all those things you asked for".
>
>> Being a user yourself, why are you so against yourself having a say?
>
> I have a say, as does anyone else who feels like contributing. Were
> things moved to a poll, no-one would have a say at all.
>
That doesn't stop you having your say by contributing...
--
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[snip]

get this shit off the dev list and somewhere more appropriate.
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Mike Doty wrote:
> [snip]
>
> get this shit off the dev list and somewhere more appropriate.

I have a question for in here. Now this is (rightly) going to -project,
are any devs actually going to comment on the discussion?
--
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On Thu, 2007-07-19 at 23:11 +0100, George Prowse wrote:
> Mike Doty wrote:
> > [snip]
> >
> > get this shit off the dev list and somewhere more appropriate.
>
> I have a question for in here. Now this is (rightly) going to -project,
> are any devs actually going to comment on the discussion?

The ones that are actually interested in this will.

--
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On Thu, 2007-07-19 at 16:51 -0500, Dale wrote:
> Now the new deal is meeting the same resistance just like the proctors
> and I suspect it will fail too. Gentoo needs to listen to the people.

No.

Gentoo needs to make intelligent decisions, whether it comes from a
single individual or an army doesn't matter. A good idea is a good
idea.

The main thing that we need to do is keep admitting when we're wrong.
If we're wrong, admit it and fix it. It really is that simple. Nobody
expects us to be perfect, but we should still strive for it. At the
same time, I think sometimes taking action, even the wrong one, is
better than sitting around postulating endlessly. I would much rather
see something done, found to be wrong, reverted, and replaced over time
than nothing be done at all because nobody can agree 100% on the "right"
way to do it.

--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Roy Marples wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-07-19 at 23:11 +0100, George Prowse wrote:
>> Mike Doty wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> get this shit off the dev list and somewhere more appropriate.
>> I have a question for in here. Now this is (rightly) going to -project,
>> are any devs actually going to comment on the discussion?
>
> The ones that are actually interested in this will.
>

I don't want to start a long discussion here, and if you reply to this
please do so on -project. I would post this there only but I think I'll
miss my target audience - which is devs who aren't interested in
- -project material and want -dev to be a technical list.

If you are a dev who wants to see only technical commentary on this list
please do yourself a favor and DON'T reply on this list to non-technical
issues. If somebody feels like they get 2 replies on -project and 50
replies on -dev (even if it is just telling them to buzz off) they're
going to post on -dev as the perceived impact is higher.

Just ignore stuff like this on -dev, and post replies on -project.

And for those among you who aren't devs and would like to be able to
participate on -dev in realtime without moderation, participating in
these sorts of discussions on -dev isn't the way to accomplish your
goals. Let's give -project a chance, shall we...

And again, I apologize for cross-posting this on dev. Please feel free
to tell me to buzz off, but for everybody else's sake do so by private
email... :)
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George Prowse schrieb:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:45:46 -0500
>> Dale <dalek1967@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>>>> Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative
>>>> of the user base in general.
>>> So if ten users reply then, are all ten individually wrong too?
>>
>> Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not see
>> the question or not respond. Those that both see the question and take
>> time to respond are highly atypical.
>
> If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers you
> would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo has,
> you would then get the opinions of the majority of users.
No
In best case you get answers from a larger part of that part of the user
community that a) actively follow those information channels, b) want to
contribute answers and probably c) have enough technical skill to
express what they want to say in a useful way (not like 'bla doesn't
work, fix that') and some will stay silent because they are to shy or alike.
Even if you manage to get approx 10-20% of valid answer rate over all
channels this still is far from beeing representative.
A relevant part of the user base is surely completely 'invisible'- no
matter which channels we use to publicate infos/polls/etc to.

Anyways this is more of philosophical/social issue to discuss about than
a technical one.
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Thomas Scharl wrote:
> George Prowse schrieb:
>> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>>> On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:45:46 -0500
>>> Dale <dalek1967@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>>>>> Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative
>>>>> of the user base in general.
>>>> So if ten users reply then, are all ten individually wrong too?
>>>
>>> Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not see
>>> the question or not respond. Those that both see the question and take
>>> time to respond are highly atypical.
>>
>> If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers you
>> would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo has,
>> you would then get the opinions of the majority of users.
> No
> In best case you get answers from a larger part of that part of the user
> community that a) actively follow those information channels, b) want to
> contribute answers and probably c) have enough technical skill to
> express what they want to say in a useful way (not like 'bla doesn't
> work, fix that') and some will stay silent because they are to shy or
> alike.
> Even if you manage to get approx 10-20% of valid answer rate over all
> channels this still is far from beeing representative.
> A relevant part of the user base is surely completely 'invisible'- no
> matter which channels we use to publicate infos/polls/etc to.
>
> Anyways this is more of philosophical/social issue to discuss about than
> a technical one.

a) The people who don't actively follow the communication channels
wouldn't know what was going on so they would never notice! Duhhhh...

b) If people don't want to contribute in them then it is up to them.
People can't complain if they are given the option.

c) You don't need lots of technical skills to help. To be honest, that
is immaterial anyway, there is a huge wealth of knowlege in the forums
community (that is unused by Gentoo) and there are always people who
would explain something in plain language.

George
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

On Fri, 2007-07-20 at 18:54 +0200, Thomas Scharl wrote:
> Anyways this is more of philosophical/social issue to discuss about than
> a technical one.

One thing that I had been considering bringing up and getting help with
is some scripts/whatever to get users to do things they might not know
they can do during installation. For example, let's say we've got a
little script, called sub_to_gwn, which takes a single argument, an
email address. At the end of the Installer, we can ask "Would you like
to subscribe to the Gentoo Weekly Newsletter?" and subscribe people that
say yes. We could do the same thing for a stats client, or any other
projects that we deemed would be useful. The idea here is to present
some of these things that we would like the users to be doing to provide
us feedback (and disseminate information) to the user when they're
installing. Of course, we'd also add the scripts into the
documentation, so people can simply run them w/o the Installer, so we're
not tying this stuff to Installer-only installs.

Anyway, some things I think we could/should do are:
- GWN
- gentoo-announce
- gentoo-stats (or whatever we have now, if anything)

Anything else?

--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 14:48:12 -0700
Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Anyway, some things I think we could/should do are:
> - GWN
> - gentoo-announce
> - gentoo-stats (or whatever we have now, if anything)

Smolt, which is Fedora's new hardware-profiling program, is actively
porting to other distributions. We could probably join in the fun there
pretty easily, since it seems our own stats are on hiatus.

Anyone interested?

Thanks,
Donnie