Mailing List Archive

[RFC]: gentoo-politics ML
So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the flames burn
bright enough to have earned a star designation from the IAU. Given what's been
going on lately, and with calls from myself and others (i.e., mcummings) to get
back on track and actually like, you know, develop something, I think it's high
time we create this list ourselves.

What goes on it?, why the flames of course. Every last ember, hot coal, glowing
developers, and any kittens having reached critical mass. We leave the new
developer introductions on -dev, but any developer leaving and wanting to say
goodbye, should consider posting their bit on -politics, because that's lately
been the reason for leaving. Anything hot button, hot topic, divisive,
non-development, etc. Especially license debates. Ohhh yes, the license
debates definitely belong here.

This'll probably kill -dev off completely, unless we start developing again.
But hey, I for once wouldn't mind a quiet gentoo-dev folder in my thunderbird
client.



So who's up for it? We can even divide ourselves into Red Devs and Blue Devs!
Blue Devs will, of course, be liberal, very energy conservative (i.e., no
Octanes for you guys!), Pro-Choice (Portage or Paludis or Pkgcore, it's a dev's
right to choose!), and most importantly, they'll favour any legislation from the
Council that bans devs from smoking. You know, the kind of smoldering that
happens before a dev bursts into flames?

And the Red Devs? Well, they'll be on the other side of the fence. They'll
blow the electric bill like the space shuttle burns fuel. They'll also be
Anti-Portage (it's Paludis/Pkgcore or else). And the flames? We're talking
Firebats from StarCraft here. Need a light?

See, this is fun already! We can hold debates where one side rips the other,
conventions where the egos of one side get inflated bigger than the Hindenburg
(and lots of confetti is thrown about), And maybe even a few scandals, like
discovering one die-hard Blue Dev secretly runs a 8-way Opteron system with a
15-disk RAID6 array and 5 CRT monitors, or something.

We will have to fill a few positions, though. We'll need a flip-flopper for
starters (the one dev who randomly changes his opinion when cornered). We'll
also need a dev who skipped the Freenode War a year or two ago (when Bantown
attacked, and they ran away screaming because of the netsplits and Squits and
lilo impersonators). And maybe a dev who secretly dabbles in another OS....like
Wind...err, Ubuntu!


So anyways, I'm all for this list, humour aside. It's blatantly obvious people
need a place to vent at times, and I think that by separating the politics from
the technical discussion, it might help in some way. Yes, it'll also be the
source of many problems too. I can't envision what they might be, but I know
they'd exist.


Anyways, thoughts?


--Kumba

--
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere." --Elrond
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
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Kumba wrote:
>
> So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the
> flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the
> IAU. Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself and
> others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like, you
> know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this list
> ourselves.
>

>
> Anyways, thoughts?
>
>
> --Kumba
>

I like the idea.

- --

Luis F. Araujo "araujo at gentoo.org"
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
On 6/7/07, Kumba <kumba@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> Anyways, thoughts?
>
> --Kumba


+1

possible alternative names: gentoo-soap, gentoo-gossip ( not to be
confused with net-im/gossip )

And just for fits and giggles, the occasional person can start a fake
flame war just to keep us on our toes as to whats a flame war, and
whats just devs moaning for the simple sake of moaning. =P

Just one q, ... is there like a green team?, not much a fan for blue's
or reds atm ( well, not in my country anyway, colours do seem to be a
little country specific sometimes)
^^;




--
Kent
ruby -e '[.1, 2, 4, 7, 0, 9, 5, 8, 3, 10, 11, 6, 12, 13].each{|x|
print "enNOSPicAMreil kdrtf@gma.com"[(2*x)..(2*x+1)]}'
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Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
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Kumba wrote:
> And maybe a dev who
> secretly dabbles in another OS....like Wind...err, Ubuntu!

I thought this position has been already filled :)
- --
Vlastimil Babka (Caster)
Gentoo/Java
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Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
Kumba wrote:
> So anyways, I'm all for this list, humour aside. It's blatantly obvious
> people need a place to vent at times, and I think that by separating the
> politics from the technical discussion, it might help in some way. Yes,
> it'll also be the source of many problems too. I can't envision what
> they might be, but I know they'd exist.

I'm ok with it, just I'd like to have it available as gentoo-fortune please.

(btw I'd like to see the quotebot back from the old ages!)

lu

--

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero
--
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Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
On Thursday 07 June 2007 09:10:41 Kent Fredric wrote:
> On 6/7/07, Kumba <kumba@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Anyways, thoughts?
> >
> > --Kumba
>
> +1

+1 here too

> possible alternative names: gentoo-soap, gentoo-gossip ( not to be
> confused with net-im/gossip )

gentoo-soap, lol!
Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
Kent Fredric wrote:
> possible alternative names: gentoo-soap, gentoo-gossip ( not to be
> confused with net-im/gossip )

Please, please, make it gentoo-circuits [1].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_My_Circuits

Yours faithfully,
-jkt

--
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth
Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 02:19:55 -0400
Kumba <kumba@gentoo.org> wrote:

>
> So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the flames burn
> bright enough to have earned a star designation from the IAU. Given what's been
> going on lately, and with calls from myself and others (i.e., mcummings) to get
> back on track and actually like, you know, develop something, I think it's high
> time we create this list ourselves.

Do you really think people would voluntarily use it? That's an honest question, maybe people are fair enough to do it, but I have serious doubts about it. It's of no use if people have to be told to move threads from -dev to that new list.

Marius

--
Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org>
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
Kent Fredric wrote:
> +1
>
> possible alternative names: gentoo-soap, gentoo-gossip ( not to be
> confused with net-im/gossip )
>
> And just for fits and giggles, the occasional person can start a fake
> flame war just to keep us on our toes as to whats a flame war, and
> whats just devs moaning for the simple sake of moaning. =P
>
> Just one q, ... is there like a green team?, not much a fan for blue's
> or reds atm ( well, not in my country anyway, colours do seem to be a
> little country specific sometimes)

FYI, I've been told the debian variant is "debian-project", and its description
is "Discussions about non-technical issues in the project". Which more or less
fits in with the purpose of this...

And green? Hmm, I suppose we could have Green Drazi and Purple Drazi, and then
spend eons fighting entire wars just because one side wears one color and
another side wears the other color....

Just watch out for Ivonova!


--Kumba

--
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere." --Elrond
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
Christian Parpart wrote:
>
> +1 here too
>
>> possible alternative names: gentoo-soap, gentoo-gossip ( not to be
>> confused with net-im/gossip )
>
> gentoo-soap, lol!

...."And these are the Flames of our Lives..."


--Kumba

--
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere." --Elrond
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
Luca Barbato wrote:
>
> I'm ok with it, just I'd like to have it available as gentoo-fortune please.
>
> (btw I'd like to see the quotebot back from the old ages!)

Oh, I could easily see the quote package for gentoo-politics (or whatever its
called) raising much laughter (among other things).

And yes, the quote bot needs to return! So I can stop storing quotes in my bot
hiding off on another network :P


--Kumba

--
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere." --Elrond
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
Marius Mauch wrote:
>
> Do you really think people would voluntarily use it? That's an honest question, maybe people are fair enough to do it, but I have serious doubts about it. It's of no use if people have to be told to move threads from -dev to that new list.
>

Most of what I wrote was tongue-in-cheek, but the point was that -dev is far too
often filled with non-technical issues that ultimately result into flame wars of
the likes that'd humble mighty Troy herself. It is also our primary list for
discussion of all-things gentoo, and so the -dev moniker doesn't even really fit
right now.

By separating the technical and non-technical, and allowing people to
voluntarily subscribe to the -politics one or not (since -dev is basically a
requirement for devship), My hope is that -dev finally gets back on track as
being purely technical. That is, PMS discussions, ebuild additions/removals,
new developer intros, why quoting variables like ${S} is safer than not quoting
them in ebuilds, questions about bash-fu, and so on. These belong on -dev.

The rest, the non-technical, can go elsewhere, IMHO, and people are free to
subscribe to it if they wish to participate in the discussions there or not. I
myself would likely stay off that list, because I care more about technical
things. I live ~30mi outside of the DC Beltway; I get enough politics as it is.

Think about it -- I'm 30mi away from Wolf Blitzer. Scary stuff man.


--Kumba

--
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere." --Elrond
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
Marius Mauch wrote:
> Do you really think people would voluntarily use it? That's an honest question, maybe people are fair enough to do it, but I have serious doubts about it. It's of no use if people have to be told to move threads from -dev to that new list.
>
We might need some sort of enforcement for that particular purpose.
While I think that "behavior" proctors are inappropriate, I think that
people with ability to say "move this thread to gentoo-politics or else.."
for non-technical threads, as well as "stop failing to use logic in your
technical discussion or else..." with power to temporarily ban people
for non-compliance could be a useful thing.

> Marius
>
>

--
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Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
070607 Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
> people with ability to say "move this to gentoo-politics or else.."
> for non-technical threads, as well as "stop failing to use logic
> in your technical discussion or else..." with power
> to temporarily ban people for non-compliance could be a useful thing.

I've also previously thought a 'gentoo-pol' list wb an improvement,
leaving 'gentoo-dev' for genuine development discussions & announcements.
The former should have fairly free speech, but some users/devs might choose
not to subscribe, if the noise tended to outweigh the messages.
Its principal attraction wb to relieve '-dev', as you describe.

--
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT ___________//___, Philip Webb : purslow@chass.utoronto.ca
ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Centre for Urban & Community Studies
TRANSIT `-O----------O---' University of Toronto
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Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
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Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
> Marius Mauch wrote:
>> Do you really think people would voluntarily use it? That's an honest question, maybe people are fair enough to do it, but I have serious doubts about it. It's of no use if people have to be told to move threads from -dev to that new list.
>>
> We might need some sort of enforcement for that particular purpose.
> While I think that "behavior" proctors are inappropriate, I think that
> people with ability to say "move this thread to gentoo-politics or else.."
> for non-technical threads, as well as "stop failing to use logic in your
> technical discussion or else..." with power to temporarily ban people
> for non-compliance could be a useful thing.
>
>> Marius
>>
>>
>
No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
can't have that, no sir.
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Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:50:02 -0500
Steev Klimaszewski <steev@gentoo.org> wrote:
> No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
> can't have that, no sir.

It's censorship when it's being done one-sidedly in order to skew an
argument based upon the prejudices of those doing the banning.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:50:02 -0500
> Steev Klimaszewski <steev@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>> No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
>> can't have that, no sir.
>>
>
> It's censorship when it's being done one-sidedly in order to skew an
> argument based upon the prejudices of those doing the banning.
>
>
Or if it's done to you.
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:50:02 -0500
> Steev Klimaszewski <steev@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
>> can't have that, no sir.
>
> It's censorship when it's being done one-sidedly in order to skew an
> argument based upon the prejudices of those doing the banning.
>
Correct you are, your technical knowledge is still sharp as a tack.
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
Steev Klimaszewski wrote:
> Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
> > Marius Mauch wrote:
> >> Do you really think people would voluntarily use it? That's an
> honest question, maybe people are fair enough to do it, but I have
> serious doubts about it. It's of no use if people have to be told to
> move threads from -dev to that new list.
> >>
> > We might need some sort of enforcement for that particular purpose.
> > While I think that "behavior" proctors are inappropriate, I think that
> > people with ability to say "move this thread to gentoo-politics or
> else.."
> > for non-technical threads, as well as "stop failing to use logic in your
> > technical discussion or else..." with power to temporarily ban people
> > for non-compliance could be a useful thing.
>
> >> Marius
> >>
> >>
> No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
> can't have that, no sir.
I'll presume this to be irony. Oh. Sorry, can't have that on this list
today.
Please ban yourself for 24hours.
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
> Steev Klimaszewski wrote:
>> Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
>>> Marius Mauch wrote:
>>>> Do you really think people would voluntarily use it? That's an
>> honest question, maybe people are fair enough to do it, but I have
>> serious doubts about it. It's of no use if people have to be told to
>> move threads from -dev to that new list.
>>>>
>>> We might need some sort of enforcement for that particular purpose.
>>> While I think that "behavior" proctors are inappropriate, I think that
>>> people with ability to say "move this thread to gentoo-politics or
>> else.."
>>> for non-technical threads, as well as "stop failing to use logic in your
>>> technical discussion or else..." with power to temporarily ban people
>>> for non-compliance could be a useful thing.
>>>> Marius
>>>>
>>>>
>> No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
>> can't have that, no sir.
> I'll presume this to be irony. Oh. Sorry, can't have that on this list
> today.
> Please ban yourself for 24hours.

Not irony, sarcasm, and no sir, I will not ban myself. The proctors
could have though, but not since no one will listen to them and they
have been completely undermined and made obsolete by an overzealous
council member.
--
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Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
> We might need some sort of enforcement for that particular purpose.
> While I think that "behavior" proctors are inappropriate, I think that
> people with ability to say "move this thread to gentoo-politics or else.."
> for non-technical threads, as well as "stop failing to use logic in your
> technical discussion or else..." with power to temporarily ban people
> for non-compliance could be a useful thing.
>

IMHO, any enforcement needs to come from the developer community themselves. We
have to be careful when designating small groups of people with power, because
the dark side of power is that can can be misused. The model of developers
collectively enforcing works well already: the Portage Tree. While we've had
small mishaps here and there, largely, the honesty system used on the tree has
worked quite well. I think that can easily extend to keeping -dev technical in
nature only. After all, it already works for the wayward users who posts a
-user question to -dev. Just a simple, courteous note that such a question is
better asked on -user, and off they go. Nothing precludes the same response for
a fellow developer posting a non-technical mail into -dev.

But anyways, we've got unanimous support so far, so next up: What to call it.

My two choices are gentoo-politics or gentoo-project. After looking at
debian-project a bit, I think there's no harm in recycling the same moniker[1]
for our use as well. Amusingly enough, there's even a thread on their ML today
about discussion of of-topic topics. The rest of the content there seems to be
right in line with what's been on here too as of late.

So, what should we call it? Vote on this! I think the current popular names
are the following (in no particular order, just what I've already seen suggested):

gentoo-politics
gentoo-circuits
gentoo-soap
gentoo-project
gentoo-gossip


[1]: http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/


--Kumba

--
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere." --Elrond
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
070607 Kumba wrote:
> what should we call it? Vote on this!

If users have votes ...

> gentoo-politics

... that gets mine: let's keep it quite clear what it is.

--
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT ___________//___, Philip Webb : purslow@chass.utoronto.ca
ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Centre for Urban & Community Studies
TRANSIT `-O----------O---' University of Toronto
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Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
Philip Webb wrote:
> 070607 Kumba wrote:
>> what should we call it? Vote on this!
>
> If users have votes ...

Since I'm pretty much the pikachu-loving nutball that proposed this, I don't see
why not. Users are as much a part of Gentoo as the developers are.


--Kumba

--
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere." --Elrond
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
Kumba wrote:
> >> what should we call it?  Vote on this!
> >
> > If users have votes ...

Then I'd vote for gentoo-project.

It seems to me that politics covers just a part of all possible non-technical
topics. Depends on how you define politics though.

Roman
Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML [ In reply to ]
Kumba <kumba@gentoo.org> posted 4668CAFE.5040202@gentoo.org, excerpted
below, on Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:20:30 -0400:

> gentoo-project

I too like the idea, and that name gets my vote.

Does mail/lists have anything like the followup-to header of news?
That'd be perfect for the "belongs in -project" posts, xpost the reminder
(with the quote, so the background is there for those /only/ on project/
politics) to both, with followup-to set to -project. Of course, some of
us are viewing this list as a newsgroup already, on gmane, so it'd be
simple for us, but I don't know how that carries over to the list side.

--
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"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman

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