Mailing List Archive

Mark Loeser wrote:
> At long last the devmanual is official. You can find it at
> http://devmanual.gentoo.org. I would like to thank plasmaroo for helping
> me with converting it to XML (since he did all of the XSL work to add in
> the features we needed to make it easy to write and expand upon).

Big thanks to Ciaran for organizing the original effort and writing much
of the material, Tim for continuing to maintain it, as well as all the
other contributors!

Thanks,
Donnie

On Wed, 24 May 2006 15:48:00 -0400 Mark Loeser <halcy0n@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| At long last the devmanual is official. You can find it at
| http://devmanual.gentoo.org. I would like to thank plasmaroo for
| helping me with converting it to XML (since he did all of the XSL
| work to add in the features we needed to make it easy to write and
| expand upon).

You are entirely welcome. You should probably read section 4c of the
licence, however, particularly the part saying:

"at a minimum such credit will appear where any other comparable
authorship credit appears and in a manner at least as prominent as such
other comparable authorship credit."

Your treatment of the Authors list that used to be on the main page is
at best highly dubious...

--
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Mark Loeser wrote:
> At long last the devmanual is official. You can find it at
> http://devmanual.gentoo.org. I would like to thank plasmaroo for helping
> me with converting it to XML (since he did all of the XSL work to add in
> the features we needed to make it easy to write and expand upon).

How was the conversion done? Do we now have a tool to convert rst to
guidexml, or was the conversion all done by hand (which would be a truly
frightening thought), or something else entirely?

-g2boojum-

Grant Goodyear <g2boojum@gentoo.org> said:
> How was the conversion done? Do we now have a tool to convert rst to
> guidexml, or was the conversion all done by hand (which would be a truly
> frightening thought), or something else entirely?

Be prepared to be frightened then, because it was all done by hand :)

--
Mark Loeser - Gentoo Developer (cpp gcc-porting qa toolchain x86)
email - halcy0n AT gentoo DOT org
mark AT halcy0n DOT com
web - http://dev.gentoo.org/~halcy0n/
http://www.halcy0n.com

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Wed, 24 May 2006 15:48:00 -0400 Mark Loeser
> <halcy0n@gentoo.org> wrote:
> | At long last the devmanual is official. You can find it at
> | http://devmanual.gentoo.org. [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Your treatment of the Authors list that used to be on the main
> page is at best highly dubious...

Indeed, that amazed me too: that it is seemingly written by Tim and
Mark. Really, Ciaran's name should come first there.

Benno
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

| > Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| >> Your treatment of the Authors list that used to be on the main
| >> page is at best highly dubious...

On Wed, 24 May 2006 18:35:25 -0400 Peter <pete4abw@comcast.net> wrote:
| This page lists contributors to the Gentoo Development Guide:

Er, yes, that page is the one under discussion.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

On Wed, 24 May 2006 18:36:07 -0400
Peter <pete4abw@comcast.net> wrote:

> If you have any corrections, suggestions or improvements please
> contact the editors. Large portions of the handbook were originally
> written by Ciaran McCreesh along with our contributors.

Sorry, but did you have a point here? If so then I'm not seeing it.
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Stephen Bennett <spb@gentoo.org> posted 20060525014333.333d58f2@localhost,
excerpted below, on Thu, 25 May 2006 01:43:33 +0100:

> On Wed, 24 May 2006 18:36:07 -0400
> Peter <pete4abw@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> If you have any corrections, suggestions or improvements please
>> contact the editors. Large portions of the handbook were originally
>> written by Ciaran McCreesh along with our contributors.
>
> Sorry, but did you have a point here? If so then I'm not seeing it.

OK, I know there's a bit of hypersensitivity ATM, but, I think you are
seeing a problem where there isn't one. I believe the point was just to
give credit where credit was due, acknowledging the hard work a former dev
put into it, even if he's no longer a dev. If you are reading more into
it, I believe that's exactly what's happening, you are reading into it
what isn't there.



--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman

--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Hi,

On Wed, May 24, 2006 at 04:48:00PM -0400, Mark Loeser wrote:
> At long last the devmanual is official. You can find it at
> http://devmanual.gentoo.org. I would like to thank plasmaroo for helping
> me with converting it to XML (since he did all of the XSL work to add in
> the features we needed to make it easy to write and expand upon).

this is cool. thanks for the effort.

but whatever browser I use, the 'Authors' section from the main page is not rendered correctly (I only see 'editors' not 'authors'). can you fix that please?

author:
1 a : one that originates or creates : SOURCE <software authors> <the author of this crime> b capitalized : GOD 1
2 : the writer of a literary work (as a book)

kthxbye,
peter

Mark Loeser wrote:
> At long last the devmanual is official. You can find it at
> http://devmanual.gentoo.org. I would like to thank plasmaroo for helping
> me with converting it to XML (since he did all of the XSL work to add in
> the features we needed to make it easy to write and expand upon).

Nice job. Are the XML and XSLT sources available from our CVS? I wasn't
able to find them.

Cheers,
-jkt

--
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth

On Thu, 25 May 2006 07:04:05 -0400
Peter <pete4abw@comcast.net> wrote:

> But face it, ciaranm did contribute and he was aptly credited.

"at a minimum such credit will appear where any other comparable
authorship credit appears and in a manner at least as prominent as such
other comparable authorship credit."

Two names are credited on the front page. One is conspicuously absent,
despite having done the vast majority of the original work.

> However, Tim and Mark are currently maintaining the body of work and
> are properly titled as editors. Tim and Mark are devs. ciaranm is not.

What does being a dev have to do with anything?
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

On Thu, May 25, 2006 at 08:04:05AM -0400, Peter wrote:
> As for the Authors, it clearly shows Tim and Mark as E D I T O R S.

in that case I think the section should be 'Editors' and not 'Authors'

bye,
peter

If we took half the time we spend to shoot down the rare things that are
getting done here to actually push some real improvement, Gentoo would
probably still be the most innovative Linux distro out there.

I'm feeling more and more a stranger.

--
K

--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Stephen Bennett wrote:
> Two names are credited on the front page. One is conspicuously absent,
> despite having done the vast majority of the original work.

<snip>
Large portions of the handbook were originally written by Ciaran McCreesh.
</snip>

Maybe you need to read more carefully, or need better spectacles? Ah, we
just didn't have a pointless flamewar for a long time, right... :S

--
Best regards,

Jakub Moc
mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
GPG signature:
http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

... still no signature ;)

On Thu, 2006-05-25 at 14:00 +0200, Jakub Moc wrote:
> Stephen Bennett wrote:
> > Two names are credited on the front page. One is conspicuously absent,
> > despite having done the vast majority of the original work.
>
> <snip>
> Large portions of the handbook were originally written by Ciaran McCreesh.
> </snip>
>
> Maybe you need to read more carefully, or need better spectacles? Ah, we
> just didn't have a pointless flamewar for a long time, right... :S
>
Jakub is right! Just add the name and the mail of the man and stop
crying.
Who cares about this ?

--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Luis Medinas wrote:
> Jakub is right! Just add the name and the mail of the man and stop
> crying.

But - it's _already_ _there_ - right on the front page... case closed,
let's move on, finally? :=)))


--

jakub

Peter wrote: [Thu May 25 2006, 07:00:16AM CDT]
> On Thu, 25 May 2006 12:34:13 +0100, Stephen Bennett wrote:
>
> snip...
> > "at a minimum such credit will appear where any other comparable
> > authorship credit appears and in a manner at least as prominent as such
> > other comparable authorship credit."
> >
> > Two names are credited on the front page. One is conspicuously absent,
> > despite having done the vast majority of the original work.
> >
> The two names listed are as editors. Plainly, clearly. Ciaranm is clearly
> listed alone as a main contributor and author. His name is more
> conspicuous than any other. Not to mention on the contributors page where
> is name is......first?

I could be wrong, but I believe your statement misses the point that
ciaranm actually raised. The passage he quoted seems to be fairly
clear:

"...at a minimum, such credit will appear where any other comparable
authorship credit appears and in a manner at least as prominent as
such other comparable authorship credit."

I would read that passage as suggesting that the document cannot have a
section titled "Authors" on the first page that lists only the current
editors and also a "contributors" page in an appendix that lists all of the
original authors.

Incidentally, there seems to be an implicit
assumption that ciaranm posted his message because he felt that he had
not been properly credited. His actual e-mail was polite, gracious, and
to the point, which was that the CC-SA license was probably violated.
Nowhere was there any whining about not getting the appropriate credit.
(On the other hand, I don't mind doing so. I was certainly a tad taken
aback to discover that my name was not listed in the section titled
"Authors".)

Finally, the whole issue goes away by either changing the heading on that
first page from "Authors" to "Maintainers" or "Editors", or by adding
the list of contributors back to this page. It's not exactly rocket
science, folks.

-g2boojum-
--
Grant Goodyear
Gentoo Developer
g2boojum@gentoo.org
http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum
GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0 9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76

Stephen Bennett wrote:
> "at a minimum such credit will appear where any other comparable
> authorship credit appears and in a manner at least as prominent
> as such other comparable authorship credit."

Precisely. So the Authors section on the main page should look
something like:

Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@blueyonder.co.uk>
Initiator
Tim Yamin <plasmaroo@gentoo.org>
Editor
Mark Loeser <halcy0n@gentoo.org>
Editor

Even though "initiator" sounds a bit meagre, having his name listed
there first, forever, is probably enough.

Benno
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Jan Kundrát <jkt@gentoo.org> said:
> Nice job. Are the XML and XSLT sources available from our CVS? I wasn't
> able to find them.

Not yet. The "Contributing" page shows where it is currently hosted,
and I'm going to have it moved over to Gentoo infra soon. I just
haven't gotten around to it yet :)

Thanks,

--
Mark Loeser - Gentoo Developer (cpp gcc-porting qa toolchain x86)
email - halcy0n AT gentoo DOT org
mark AT halcy0n DOT com
web - http://dev.gentoo.org/~halcy0n/
http://www.halcy0n.com

Benno Schulenberg wrote:
> Stephen Bennett wrote:
>> "at a minimum such credit will appear where any other comparable
>> authorship credit appears and in a manner at least as prominent
>> as such other comparable authorship credit."
>
> Precisely. So the Authors section on the main page should look
> something like:
>
> Ciaran McCreesh <ciaran.mccreesh@blueyonder.co.uk>
> Initiator
> Tim Yamin <plasmaroo@gentoo.org>
> Editor
> Mark Loeser <halcy0n@gentoo.org>
> Editor
>
> Even though "initiator" sounds a bit meagre, having his name listed
> there first, forever, is probably enough.

Make sure you use <blink> tags so you can't miss it either.

--
Lance Albertson <ramereth@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
GPG Public Key: <http://www.ramereth.net/lance.asc>
Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1 4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742

ramereth/irc.freenode.net

Petre Rodan <kaiowas@gentoo.org> said:
> but whatever browser I use, the 'Authors' section from the main page is not
> rendered correctly (I only see 'editors' not 'authors'). can you fix that please?
>
> author:
> 1 a : one that originates or creates : SOURCE <software authors>
> <the author of this crime> b capitalized : GOD 1
> 2 : the writer of a literary work (as a book)
>
> kthxbye,
> peter

kaiowas, next time, you don't have to be an ass. If you think we should change
something, just ask politely. It really isn't that difficult.

I changed "Authors" to be "Editors". I hope that will kill some of the
controversy.

Ciaran, we recognized you on the front page and appreciate everything
you did. We cut the author list from the front page because it was
getting incredibly long and we didn't feel it should take up that much
room. The only reason Tim and myself are listed there is because we are
the ones maintaining it now, and want people to be able to easily find
who they should contact about changes.

--
Mark Loeser - Gentoo Developer (cpp gcc-porting qa toolchain x86)
email - halcy0n AT gentoo DOT org
mark AT halcy0n DOT com
web - http://dev.gentoo.org/~halcy0n/
http://www.halcy0n.com

Mark Loeser wrote: [Thu May 25 2006, 12:39:56PM CDT]
> I changed "Authors" to be "Editors". I hope that will kill some of the
> controversy.

Thanks. That should certainly satisfy the license, and I, at least,
appreciate it.

> Ciaran, we recognized you on the front page and appreciate everything
> you did. We cut the author list from the front page because it was
> getting incredibly long and we didn't feel it should take up that much
> room. The only reason Tim and myself are listed there is because we are
> the ones maintaining it now, and want people to be able to easily find
> who they should contact about changes.

For what it's worth, I never suspected otherwise. (Nor, I suspect, did
ciaranm, although I haven't asked him.) Despite the lack of any
intentional malice, however, I do happen to believe that removing the
author list from the front page is a serious error that is worth fixing.
Giving people appropriate credit for writing documentation is just the
right thing to do, and that credit shouldn't be buried somewhere.
Indeed, my recollection was that a fair amount of thought went into
where the author list should go when drobbins created our documentation
XSL.

That said, I would certainly agree that a long list of authors, with one
author per line, down the center of the page would, indeed, not look so
good. A simple set of names (with links to the contributors page which
provides additional detail, perhaps) would suffice, I'd think:

Authors
-------

Ciaran McCreesh, Grant Goodyear, Aaron Walker, Robert Coie, Tom
Martin, Paul Varner, Ilya Volynets-Evenbakh, Diego Patteno Fernando J.
Pareda, Simon Stelling, Alin Dobre, and Joseph Jezak

Seem reasonable?

-g2boojum-
--
Grant Goodyear
Gentoo Developer
g2boojum@gentoo.org
http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum
GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0 9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76

Mark Loeser wrote: [Wed May 24 2006, 04:37:44PM CDT]
> Grant Goodyear <g2boojum@gentoo.org> said:
> > How was the conversion done? Do we now have a tool to convert rst to
> > guidexml, or was the conversion all done by hand (which would be a truly
> > frightening thought), or something else entirely?
>
> Be prepared to be frightened then, because it was all done by hand :)

I'm certainly not complaining; I'm quite grateful that this document is
being maintained! I am curious, though. I thought that neysx had made
all of the desired modifications to guide-xml so that the dev guide
could be translated to standard guide-xml. Is something still missing?

-g2boojum-
--
Grant Goodyear
Gentoo Developer
g2boojum@gentoo.org
http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum
GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0 9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76

On Thu, 25 May 2006 14:37:57 -0500 Grant Goodyear <g2boojum@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| That said, I would certainly agree that a long list of authors, with
| one author per line, down the center of the page would, indeed, not
| look so good. A simple set of names (with links to the contributors
| page which provides additional detail, perhaps) would suffice, I'd
| think:
<snip>
| Seem reasonable?

That sounds good to me. It'd certainly be more in line with the level
of credit (you know, that thing that's used in place of paying people
or plying them with copious amounts of booze) that was originally given
to contributors.

--
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list