Mailing List Archive

Daniel Goller wrote:
> get we have lost one important thing out of sight, gentoo is a distro by
> users for users, and the users i think are left out of the loop on this
> whole situation

This may be true for you but not for all of us. Gentoo is a distro where
I can have what I want, and I can make it happen. Gentoo is a distro
where I can scratch my itch to have current, working X, and lots of
scientific and clustering packages. I'm glad that also helps other
people too, and that is a motivation. I love helping people. But it's
not my primary motivation. I'm scratching an itch.

Thanks,
Donnie

Daniel Goller wrote:
> whole situation (more power to you userrel guys, please prove me wrong),
> why would we want to be more open and inviting if being a badass who
> passed some generic quiz is so much more fun.

The "quiz" is just a dumb checklist, if you already know everything
needed for writing and managing ebuilds you won't have any problem
answering it. If you have doubt you may look up informations or ask your
mentor for pointers. If you think that's too hard for you well...

> If everyone would step
> down from the pedestal for a while and looked around, then maybe, just
> maybe we would realize that we no longer do things to be there for them
> (the users) but for ourselves, anything is geared towards improving our

I always did thing for myself and for partially compensating others that
gave me that much, I'm not on a pedestal, I'm on the shoulder of a
giant. I do like help others join in, but is up to them climb using the
rope I'm providing.

> leetness level, why do things have to be so complicated that people
> think one can not work on ebuilds w/o some super hard special quiz or
> two, it all gears towards "what you don't know how to use XYZ, you must
> not be very smart/leet/cool."

the quiz is dumb and is structured to point some common situations in
which you may not solve properly at the first try.

I'm quite sad we have such different ideas about the quiz and why it got
in or why we are developing Gentoo.

lu

--

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

On Sun, 07 May 2006 16:08:52 -0400 Peter <pete4abw@comcast.net> wrote:
| In fact, the only REALLY negative thing that
| happened was when Ciaran ripped me a new a---hole because he objected
| to the line spacing I used in a proposed ebuild.

No, I closed your bug as WONTFIX and invited you to reopen it with
fixed ebuilds, as is standard practice for maintainer-wanted things. In
amongst all the other noise on m-w, you aren't significant enough to
warrant a more substantial response. If you want to contribute, you're
going to have to get used to the fact that nobody is here to do your
work for you and that we don't have time to babysit a spoilt brat who
likes throwing his rattle out of the pram when he's asked to bring his
ebuilds in line with the rest of the tree.

| Personally, I will not miss Ciaran and his "I can kill you with my
| brain." I was not impressed, or scared!

Nor, from the looks of things, did you notice that it was a humourous
quote rather than a threat. But then, you seem to enjoy jumping to
absurd conclusions based upon the delusion that anyone cares enough to
be out to get you. Tell me, are you sure you're not another one of
Lovechild's alteregos?

--
Ciaran McCreesh : Committee to abduct and torture Peter Hyman (chairman)
Mail : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

<snip>
>
> Anyway, I am a user, and I feel like I can respond. I have participated on
> bugzilla, contributed some ebuilds, tried to get a project going (nvidia
> unified drivers), and I never felt like I was not encouraged to
> participate or that my contributions were not wanted or appreciated. In
> fact, the only REALLY negative thing that happened was when Ciaran ripped
> me a new a---hole because he objected to the line spacing I used in a
> proposed ebuild. Not the ebuild itself, but the line spacing!
>
> I also took some flak on bugzilla for duplicate bugs or disputes over
> validity of a bug report, etc. However, all of this eventually worked out.
>
> In a community as large as this, and as fast moving, control is important.
> I disagree with your assessment of the dev test. I think it's important
> for up and coming devs to know the rules and how to apply them. Especially
> when it comes to having access to the tree. I also think it's important to
> have rules. There is no such thing as a utopian society, and nothing will
> ever satisfy all persons. A greatest good for the greatest number approach
> seems reasonable (as John Stuart Mill proposed a few centuries ago).
<snip>

Peter,
First off thanks for your input. I'm currently working with userrel
and bugdays to develop better systems to handle user contributions.
We're currently working on updating the current bugday page. We've
run up against a roadblock which we should be able to get by soon.
After updating the current page we hope to introduce bug voting,
search by skills and point rewards. Users will be able to tag bugs if
they are working on them so users can work together. After a bug is
closed the votes will be awarded to the user(s). Now its time to
emphasize that these are separate bugzilla. Bug voting has been
controversial but those who use bugs.g.o will not notice any
difference. The points will be award by us to foster some friendly
competition. Through this process I hope to groom more developers.

Please feel free to give more feedback.
Thanks,
Scott
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFEXoIP10ekhar8gdURAna1AJ98QleWu3sBEeGQTjf0dvynxFaMRgCaAxuZ
CzUYG4oLGa98kX1n8SKh3Aw=
=pKFW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

On Monday 08 May 2006 00:03, Peter wrote:
> On Sun, 07 May 2006 21:51:21 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Sun, 07 May 2006 16:08:52 -0400 Peter <pete4abw@comcast.net> wrote:
> > going to have to get used to the fact that nobody is here to do your
> > work for you and that we don't have time to babysit a spoilt brat who
> > likes throwing his rattle out of the pram when he's asked to bring his
> > ebuilds in line with the rest of the tree.
> Grow up, Ciaran. What is the "we" you're referring to?

If you two are so inclined to go on with this line PLEASE take it off-list.

--
Eldad Zack <eldad@gentoo.org>
Key/Fingerprint at pgp.mit.edu, ID 0x96EA0A93

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

lo,

On Sunday 07 May 2006 06:00, Daniel Goller wrote:
<snip>

I can honestly say that after reading your entire email I was no more
enlightened on what you were actually disenchanted about then before.
Perhaps your lack of clarity in your email reflects some emotional state
or perhaps a lack of crystalization of your thoughts. Either way I'd
suggest not making sweeping massive generalizations about "us" and "we"
with nothing to back it up and in a derrogatory manner. If you are
leaving then thanks for all your work and efforts, but trying to snipe at
things on your way out the door is just immature. If on the other hand
you weren't meaning to snipe I'd suggest taking more time to write a
little more clearly and suggest some concrete solutions.


- --
Benjamin Smee (strerror)
crypto/forensics/netmail/netmon/ldap
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.9.20 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFEXwPKAEpm7USL54wRApTkAJ0fNwmffcwRCSjXlgUZqVc/VBO9+gCfSV0g
I03Retor+2mXKjUQVDYJlfk=
=wl+E
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

On Sun, 07 May 2006 00:00:36 -0500, Daniel Goller wrote:

snip...
> get we have lost one important thing out of sight, gentoo is a distro by
> users for users, and the users i think are left out of the loop on this
> whole situation (more power to you userrel guys, please prove me wrong),
> why would we want to be more open and inviting if being a badass who
> passed some generic quiz is so much more fun. If everyone would step
> down from the pedestal for a while and looked around, then maybe, just
> maybe we would realize that we no longer do things to be there for them
> (the users) but for ourselves, anything is geared towards improving our
> leetness level, why do things have to be so complicated that people
> think one can not work on ebuilds w/o some super hard special quiz or
> two, it all gears towards "what you don't know how to use XYZ, you must
> not be very smart/leet/cool."

Nice rant. Reminds me of the end of James Joyce's "Ulysses." Goes on
forever without one period!

Anyway, I am a user, and I feel like I can respond. I have participated on
bugzilla, contributed some ebuilds, tried to get a project going (nvidia
unified drivers), and I never felt like I was not encouraged to
participate or that my contributions were not wanted or appreciated. In
fact, the only REALLY negative thing that happened was when Ciaran ripped
me a new a---hole because he objected to the line spacing I used in a
proposed ebuild. Not the ebuild itself, but the line spacing!

I also took some flak on bugzilla for duplicate bugs or disputes over
validity of a bug report, etc. However, all of this eventually worked out.

In a community as large as this, and as fast moving, control is important.
I disagree with your assessment of the dev test. I think it's important
for up and coming devs to know the rules and how to apply them. Especially
when it comes to having access to the tree. I also think it's important to
have rules. There is no such thing as a utopian society, and nothing will
ever satisfy all persons. A greatest good for the greatest number approach
seems reasonable (as John Stuart Mill proposed a few centuries ago).

I think what you're seeing is the beginnings of a transitional period for
Gentoo. Unlike other distros where control is tightly centralized,
Gentoo's openness is part of its problem as it grows. It will be a test of
the leadership to make sure that the distro has a clear course and that
internecine squabbles are dealt with at the appropriate level. Hopefully
devrel will be such a level.

I could not tell exactly what upset you so much about the current state of
affairs. Were you upset at Ciaran's departure? Were you upset that he was
"voted off the island?" Did someone say something to you which offended or
upset you? Personally, I will not miss Ciaran and his "I can kill you with
my brain." I was not impressed, or scared!

Or, perhaps, as happens with many people, it was just time. Time to move
on. That happens, and it's perfectly normal. But that it was your time to
"eject" does not imply there's any trouble here.

Good luck with your Source Mage. For me, getting involved with a new beta
project does not fit in with day to day requirements of a stable, running
system.

--
Peter


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

On Sun, 07 May 2006 21:51:21 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

> On Sun, 07 May 2006 16:08:52 -0400 Peter <pete4abw@comcast.net> wrote:
> | In fact, the only REALLY negative thing that
> | happened was when Ciaran ripped me a new a---hole because he objected
> | to the line spacing I used in a proposed ebuild.
>
> No, I closed your bug as WONTFIX and invited you to reopen it with
> fixed ebuilds, as is standard practice for maintainer-wanted things. In
> amongst all the other noise on m-w, you aren't significant enough to
> warrant a more substantial response.

But you felt it worthwhile to write this rant anyway. Thanks! I appreciate
it.

> If you want to contribute, you're
> going to have to get used to the fact that nobody is here to do your
> work for you and that we don't have time to babysit a spoilt brat who
> likes throwing his rattle out of the pram when he's asked to bring his
> ebuilds in line with the rest of the tree.

Grow up, Ciaran. What is the "we" you're referring to?
>
> | Personally, I will not miss Ciaran and his "I can kill you with my
> | brain." I was not impressed, or scared!
>
> Nor, from the looks of things, did you notice that it was a humourous
> quote rather than a threat. But then, you seem to enjoy jumping to
> absurd conclusions based upon the delusion that anyone cares enough to
> be out to get you. Tell me, are you sure you're not another one of
> Lovechild's alteregos?
>

No. I was commenting on your obvious conceit.
> --
> Ciaran McCreesh : Committee to abduct and torture Peter Hyman (chairman)
> Mail : ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk

Ohhhh. I'm shaking in my boots!
--
Peter


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Peter posted <pan.2006.05.07.20.08.52.220544@comcast.net>, excerpted
below, on Sun, 07 May 2006 16:08:52 -0400:

> Anyway, I am a user, and I feel like I can respond. I have participated on
> bugzilla, contributed some ebuilds, tried to get a project going (nvidia
> unified drivers), and I never felt like I was not encouraged to
> participate or that my contributions were not wanted or appreciated. In
> fact, the only REALLY negative thing that happened was when Ciaran ripped
> me a new a---hole because he objected to the line spacing I used in a
> proposed ebuild. Not the ebuild itself, but the line spacing!

[some rearranging]

> I could not tell exactly what upset you so much about the current state
> of affairs. Were you upset at Ciaran's departure? Were you upset that he
> was "voted off the island?" Did someone say something to you which
> offended or upset you? Personally, I will not miss Ciaran and his "I can
> kill you with my brain." I was not impressed, or scared!

I've come to realize over the years that I seem to be a bit more tolerant
of others and their foibles than some. I consider it a strength.

When I started with Gentoo, I didn't see anything of benefit with the way
Ciaran carried himself, and in fact, had a rather low opinion of him.
Something has changed over the last year, however, as I watched him and
others, and Gentoo in general. I gained an entirely new respect for him
and his opinion.

While he might not always put things in the most friendly way, something
I find regrettable but now understand, one of the first things I noticed
is how technically astute Ciaran is. The second thing I noticed is that
unlike some, if you want to get a real, pulled no punches opinion, you ask
Ciaran. He'll tell you exactly what he thinks of the idea and the
technical merits, and what needs to be changed to begin bringing it into
line. Again, it's not always (perhaps seldom) the most pleasant delivery,
but he's the one to go to if you want an honest opinion. In the end, if
one doesn't simply get discouraged by it all (the danger of being so
frank), it cuts thru the crap and builds an efficient product much faster
and with fewer exchanges than likely would have been the case had he been
more polite in his delivery. It's not the "yes" men or those that couch
their objections in polite agreement or even polite disagreement that are
at times the most valuable to have around, but the one or two people you
can go to that you can be SURE will tell it to you like it is -- the good
and ESPECIALLY the bad! There's a place in any organization for such
folks, and without them, that organization is far worse off.

Watching him develop the news GLEP, I realized a couple other things as
well. He's as equally demanding of himself as he is of others -- he knew
the thing wasn't ready, and wouldn't be thru a number of additional
revisions, and said so. A watcher soon realized that not only was he
incorporating the ideas of others, but that it at that point didn't meet
his /own/ highly demanding standards.

Secondly on the news glep, I realized just how nasty the process could be
at times, coming up with something that important, which by the same
measure, is that controversial. How many would have been able to take all
that abuse without getting discouraged and giving up, saying no agreement
between the parties was possible in the area? He took it all, melding the
changes into further revisions, and came back for more.

Thru all that I gained a new appreciation for Ciaran and what makes him
tick. If there's ever a GLEP I care about and consider important to the
betterment of Gentoo, I hope there's someone like Ciaran I can get to
guide it thru the process. The glep, and Gentoo as a result, will end up
far better for it.

Thus, tho not knowing or even necessarily wanting to know all the details
of what went on and why Ciaran no longer posts with a Gentoo address, I
was immensely relieved to see him still posting. One hopes that whatever
it was at some point can be worked out, because here at least, I see the
immense benefit to the organization that Ciaran can bring. I don't know
who was in the wrong and in some ways don't know that it matters. I do
hope that as time goes on, whether it be a month or a year or a couple
years from now, Ciaran is once more a part of what Gentoo has grown into
by that point, both having changed and ideally improved in the mean time.

I had actually written to him expressing these same sentiments. Now I'm
doing so publicly as well. I realize it's heading off on a tangent of
sorts for the thread, but believe it needs publicly stated.

> I also took some flak on bugzilla for duplicate bugs or disputes over
> validity of a bug report, etc. However, all of this eventually worked
> out.

I've had my runins with that, too. Conversely to what I just expressed
above, I also believe that regrettably, many folks don't consider the
effect what they say may have on the other person. I've pointed out
before that there may in fact be far more drastic consequences to a
comment than intended. In particular, I don't like the INVALID closing.
NOTABUG or NEEDINFO or whatever, but INVALID IMO isn't the best choice.
It can be read by some as saying all the work they put into filing the bug
(and by extension, everything they've done with Gentoo) is invalid. If
that hits at the wrong moment in a person's life, that could have drastic
consequences.

All I'm asking is that people think about the viewpoint of the other
person before responding, and ask themselves whether the response is not
only technically accurate, but ultimately beneficial both to Gentoo, and
to those involved in the individual case. Unfortunately, that's often a
weak point, with the same folks that have the strong points Ciaran does,
but this doesn't only apply to him, but to us all. There are times when
a straightup opinion is called for, and times when its not. Bless Ciaran,
he can be counted on to provide one when needed -- and when not, too.
=8^)

Anyway, here too, ultimately things have worked out. Sometimes it just
took a bit. =8^)

> In a community as large as this, and as fast moving, control is
> important. I disagree with your assessment of the dev test. I think it's
> important for up and coming devs to know the rules and how to apply
> them. Especially when it comes to having access to the tree. I also
> think it's important to have rules. There is no such thing as a utopian
> society, and nothing will ever satisfy all persons. A greatest good for
> the greatest number approach seems reasonable (as John Stuart Mill
> proposed a few centuries ago).

+1

> I think what you're seeing is the beginnings of a transitional period
> for Gentoo. Unlike other distros where control is tightly centralized,
> Gentoo's openness is part of its problem as it grows. It will be a test
> of the leadership to make sure that the distro has a clear course and
> that internecine squabbles are dealt with at the appropriate level.
> Hopefully devrel will be such a level.

Very insightful. Sometimes it hurts to change and to grow. What doesn't
change and grow, however, ultimately dies. Change is painful, but one can
hope Gentoo will ultimately come out the stronger for it.

> Good luck with your Source Mage.

Indeed! That it exists as an alternative to Gentoo in the community is a
good thing. Each solution has a slightly different emphasis. No one
solution can or will be right for everyone, and that the different
alternatives exist is a sign of a healthy and vital free/libra and open
source software community, not a sign of a stagnating one! Make it the
best you can, because those of us still with Gentoo at the moment will
certainly be doing our best to make Gentoo the best we can. =8^)

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list