Mailing List Archive

What "just works" and what doesn't?
One of my goals as manager of the desktop project is to get things to
"just work." Once they're emerged, just run them and things are good to
go.

Since I can't try everything, I need some feedback from you guys. What
already does a great job at this? What stands out in your minds as being
forgettable because of the lack of set-up effort?

On the other side, what is really hard to configure? Where can we
improve how we set things up when programs are emerged?

Thanks for your time.

Donnie
--
Donnie Berkholz
Gentoo Linux


--
gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 2004-10-05 at 15:34, Adam Petaccia wrote:
> While GNOME does "just work" would this be the place to suggest some
> Gentoo-ization branding of some sort? Or at least change the default
> theme. While it does work, its ugly.

Nope, not the place. Start a new thread on Gentoo branding to keep the
inevitable flamewars off this one, please.

Thanks,
Donnie
--
Donnie Berkholz
Gentoo Linux


--
gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
On Tuesday 05 October 2004 8:44 pm, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> One of my goals as manager of the desktop project is to get things to
> "just work." Once they're emerged, just run them and things are good to
> go.

That's the role I have taken for Utopios.

>
> Since I can't try everything, I need some feedback from you guys. What
> already does a great job at this?

Scanners work out of the box when they work at all (if it's supported and the
stuff compiles).

> What stands out in your minds as being
> forgettable because of the lack of set-up effort?

Printers *used* to be almost the same as scanners (once installed).
Unfortunately, somewhat recently (over the past year), the default is to
*not* install drivers for most printers. I believe people need to manually
emerge gimp-print or something to get them.

>
> On the other side, what is really hard to configure?

Default KDE settings are annoying quite often, but that really is upstream's
fault. Utopios will be changing upstream defaults, but IIRC, Gentoo's policy
is not to.

> Where can we
> improve how we set things up when programs are emerged?
>
> Thanks for your time.
>
> Donnie
Random other stuff I forget, I'm sure, but that's it for now.
--
Luke-Jr
Developer, Utopios
http://utopios.org/
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 2004-10-05 at 13:44 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> One of my goals as manager of the desktop project is to get things to
> "just work." Once they're emerged, just run them and things are good to
> go.
>
> Since I can't try everything, I need some feedback from you guys. What
> already does a great job at this? What stands out in your minds as being
> forgettable because of the lack of set-up effort?
>
> On the other side, what is really hard to configure? Where can we
> improve how we set things up when programs are emerged?
>
While GNOME does "just work" would this be the place to suggest some
Gentoo-ization branding of some sort? Or at least change the default
theme. While it does work, its ugly.

> Thanks for your time.
>
> Donnie
--

--
Download firefox today!
http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/

Adam Petaccia adam@tpetaccia.com


--
gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
On Tuesday 05 October 2004 22:44, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> Since I can't try everything, I need some feedback from you guys. What
> already does a great job at this? What stands out in your minds as being
> forgettable because of the lack of set-up effort?

I did not look, if the developer documentation is improved or what the status
of eclass menu functions for .desktop files is now, but I know that we're not
doing the best job there. I really don't care much, since it is a minor
issue, but it is a inconvenience to users, updating an ebuild and having none
or more than one entry for an application in the menu. Would be good to find
someone, who is interested in this. It shouldn't be hard, just boring work.

I saw a lot of people complaining about xorg-6.7 and ati 9600SE, which seem to
work fine with xfree. Couldn't find any bug report mentioning this
regression, though.

> On the other side, what is really hard to configure? Where can we
> improve how we set things up when programs are emerged?

Do we have something like "mime-config"?


Carsten
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
Sorry about that. I withdraw the comment.

On Tue, 2004-10-05 at 14:45 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> On Tue, 2004-10-05 at 15:34, Adam Petaccia wrote:
> > While GNOME does "just work" would this be the place to suggest some
> > Gentoo-ization branding of some sort? Or at least change the default
> > theme. While it does work, its ugly.
>
> Nope, not the place. Start a new thread on Gentoo branding to keep the
> inevitable flamewars off this one, please.
>
> Thanks,
> Donnie
--

--
Download firefox today!
http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/

Adam Petaccia adam@tpetaccia.com


--
gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 2004-10-05 at 13:44 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> One of my goals as manager of the desktop project is to get things to
> "just work." Once they're emerged, just run them and things are good to
> go.
>
> Since I can't try everything, I need some feedback from you guys. What
> already does a great job at this? What stands out in your minds as being
> forgettable because of the lack of set-up effort?
>
> On the other side, what is really hard to configure? Where can we
> improve how we set things up when programs are emerged?

set up a printer in gnome.

i must admit, maybe i just don't know how to do it.
i usually emerge kdebase, and use kcontrol (kde control center)
to add a cups printer.

so, if there's a normal way to add a printer in gnome, tell me.

gabor


--
gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
Thus spake Gábor Farkas on Wed, Oct 06, 2004 at 02:23:59AM CDT
> On Tue, 2004-10-05 at 13:44 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> > One of my goals as manager of the desktop project is to get things to
> > "just work." Once they're emerged, just run them and things are good to
> > go.
> >
> > Since I can't try everything, I need some feedback from you guys. What
> > already does a great job at this? What stands out in your minds as being
> > forgettable because of the lack of set-up effort?
> >
> > On the other side, what is really hard to configure? Where can we
> > improve how we set things up when programs are emerged?
>
> set up a printer in gnome.
>
> i must admit, maybe i just don't know how to do it.
> i usually emerge kdebase, and use kcontrol (kde control center)
> to add a cups printer.
>
> so, if there's a normal way to add a printer in gnome, tell me.

Printers are an Issue in Linux, and it's not just Gentoo. Eric Raymond sent
a flame letter to the CUPS people a while back detailing his horror story of
setting up a CUPS printer. His story was chillingly similar to my own
experience. It was a nightmare! Maybe the Gentoo devs could pick up the
ball and make CUPS a little easier to use.

--
Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works | PGP public key
FMP Computer Services | if you let it" | available at
512-259-1190 | (Travis W. Redfish) | <http://www.fmp.com/pubkeys>
http://www.fmp.com | ("The Roadie") |

--
gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
On Wednesday 06 October 2004 00:58, Carsten Lohrke wrote:
> On Tuesday 05 October 2004 22:44, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> > Since I can't try everything, I need some feedback from you guys.
> > What already does a great job at this? What stands out in your minds
> > as being forgettable because of the lack of set-up effort?
>
> I did not look, if the developer documentation is improved or what the
> status of eclass menu functions for .desktop files is now, but I know
> that we're not doing the best job there. I really don't care much,
> since it is a minor issue, but it is a inconvenience to users, updating
> an ebuild and having none or more than one entry for an application in
> the menu. Would be good to find someone, who is interested in this. It
> shouldn't be hard, just boring work.

Actually the new kde and gnome releases both support the same menu files
IN THE SAME LOCATION. Those files need to be in /usr/share/applications,
and follow the freedesktop menu specification. The main difference with
"traditional" kde .desktop files is that a Categories entry must be
present. With current releases just putting a file there "just works".

> > On the other side, what is really hard to configure? Where can we
> > improve how we set things up when programs are emerged?
>
> Do we have something like "mime-config"?

We indeed might want to have some way to synchronize file associations
between gnome and kde. That will probably be worked on by the respective
projects though.

Paul

--
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
On Wednesday 06 October 2004 09:40, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> Thus spake Gábor Farkas on Wed, Oct 06, 2004 at 02:23:59AM CDT

> Printers are an Issue in Linux, and it's not just Gentoo. Eric Raymond
> sent a flame letter to the CUPS people a while back detailing his
> horror story of setting up a CUPS printer. His story was chillingly
> similar to my own experience. It was a nightmare! Maybe the Gentoo
> devs could pick up the ball and make CUPS a little easier to use.

The main problem with cups is the lack of "default" supported printers.
One needs foomatic or gimp-print-cups to add more printers. Foomatic
however does not by default provide all printers it knows about to cups
(Just a matter of generating ppd files and putting them
in /usr/share/cups/model).

Paul

--
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
On Wed, 2004-10-06 at 10:32 +0200, Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> On Wednesday 06 October 2004 09:40, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> > Thus spake Gábor Farkas on Wed, Oct 06, 2004 at 02:23:59AM CDT
>
> > Printers are an Issue in Linux, and it's not just Gentoo. Eric Raymond
> > sent a flame letter to the CUPS people a while back detailing his
> > horror story of setting up a CUPS printer. His story was chillingly
> > similar to my own experience. It was a nightmare! Maybe the Gentoo
> > devs could pick up the ball and make CUPS a little easier to use.
>
> The main problem with cups is the lack of "default" supported printers.
> One needs foomatic or gimp-print-cups to add more printers. Foomatic
> however does not by default provide all printers it knows about to cups
> (Just a matter of generating ppd files and putting them
> in /usr/share/cups/model).

well...foomatic (at least for me) usually has the printer driver i need
(it works with kcontrol).

i just don't know how to add a cups printer in gnome ;)

gabor


--
gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
On Wednesday 06 October 2004 11:44, Gábor Farkas wrote:
> well...foomatic (at least for me) usually has the printer driver i need
> (it works with kcontrol).
>
> i just don't know how to add a cups printer in gnome ;)

Well, kcontrol knows about foomatic, but cups itself certainly doesn't. An
easy way to control cups is through the web interface. For that to work
the printer needs to be known to cups (by installing in that location).

Paul

--
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 2004-10-05 at 16:44, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> One of my goals as manager of the desktop project is to get things to
> "just work." Once they're emerged, just run them and things are good to
> go.

for i in `ls games-*`; do emerge $i; done

Those work out of the box, with exactly two exceptions that I can
recall, which are ut2003 and ut2004, both of which require the user to
ebuild /path/to/ebuild config them to enter their CD key.

> Since I can't try everything, I need some feedback from you guys. What
> already does a great job at this? What stands out in your minds as being
> forgettable because of the lack of set-up effort?

Well, to be honest, quite a lot in the desktop arena seems to "just
work" when merged. I've never had a problem with X (XFree86 or X.Org)
not working after being installed. Gnome has never failed me.

In fact, I find my biggest problem with anything that would fall under
the "desktop" TLP is finding them. For example, I just found
gnome-btdownload the other day and for a package that I never knew
existed before then, it is now an essential part of my Gentoo
experience.

> On the other side, what is really hard to configure? Where can we
> improve how we set things up when programs are emerged?

I haven't found much of anything hard to configure, other than working
32-bit OpenGL emulation on amd64.

--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Operational/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux


--
gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
On Wed, 2004-10-06 at 03:23, Gábor Farkas wrote:
> set up a printer in gnome.
>
> i must admit, maybe i just don't know how to do it.
> i usually emerge kdebase, and use kcontrol (kde control center)
> to add a cups printer.
>
> so, if there's a normal way to add a printer in gnome, tell me.

emerge gnome-cups-manager

I really wish this ebuild would add a .desktop entry to the Desktop
Preferences section of my Gnome menu by default. In fact, you might
even have it on your system and just not know it.

--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Operational/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux


--
gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
On Wed, 2004-10-06 at 08:49, Jonathan Stickel wrote:
> I propose that this USE flag be set in make.defaults.

Please file this at bugs.gentoo.org.

Thanks,
Donnie
--
Donnie Berkholz
Gentoo Linux


--
gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
Examples of things that DON'T WORK out-of-the-box are
* wireless (in my experience, very hard to set up)
* software suspend
* printers



--- Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 2004-10-06 at 03:23, Gábor Farkas wrote:
> > set up a printer in gnome.
> >
> > i must admit, maybe i just don't know how to do
> it.
> > i usually emerge kdebase, and use kcontrol (kde
> control center)
> > to add a cups printer.
> >
> > so, if there's a normal way to add a printer in
> gnome, tell me.
>
> emerge gnome-cups-manager
>
> I really wish this ebuild would add a .desktop entry
> to the Desktop
> Preferences section of my Gnome menu by default. In
> fact, you might
> even have it on your system and just not know it.
>
> --
> Chris Gianelloni
> Release Engineering - Operational/QA Manager
> Games - Developer
> Gentoo Linux
>
>
> --
> gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


--
gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
If you have cups running you can use the browser configuration tool:
http://localhost:631

I think it's the easiest way to configure a printer.

On Wed, 2004-10-06 at 08:43, marcos ferreyra wrote:
> Examples of things that DON'T WORK out-of-the-box are
> * wireless (in my experience, very hard to set up)
> * software suspend
> * printers
>
>
>
> --- Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2004-10-06 at 03:23, Gbor Farkas wrote:
> > > set up a printer in gnome.
> > >
> > > i must admit, maybe i just don't know how to do
> > it.
> > > i usually emerge kdebase, and use kcontrol (kde
> > control center)
> > > to add a cups printer.
> > >
> > > so, if there's a normal way to add a printer in
> > gnome, tell me.
> >
> > emerge gnome-cups-manager
> >
> > I really wish this ebuild would add a .desktop entry
> > to the Desktop
> > Preferences section of my Gnome menu by default. In
> > fact, you might
> > even have it on your system and just not know it.
> >
> > --
> > Chris Gianelloni
> > Release Engineering - Operational/QA Manager
> > Games - Developer
> > Gentoo Linux
> >
> >
> > --
> > gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
>

--
gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> On Wednesday 06 October 2004 11:44, Gábor Farkas wrote:
>
>>well...foomatic (at least for me) usually has the printer driver i need
>>(it works with kcontrol).
>>
>>i just don't know how to add a cups printer in gnome ;)
>
>
> Well, kcontrol knows about foomatic, but cups itself certainly doesn't. An
> easy way to control cups is through the web interface. For that to work
> the printer needs to be known to cups (by installing in that location).
>
> Paul
>

I really recommend the setting the "ppds" USE flag. When installing
foomatic-db, hpijs, gimp-print, etc, this flag causes a large database
of ppd files to be generated so that the print drivers can be seen in
the CUPS web interface and higher level printer setup utilities.
Otherwise, you are left to generate ppd files by cups command line
tools, which is not a trivial process. The only down side is an extra
5-10MB in /usr/share/ppd, which is not very much at all.

I propose that this USE flag be set in make.defaults.

Jonathan


--
gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
Of course, there is always the excellent gentoo printing howto:

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/printing-howto.xml

It has never failed to work for me.

-Steve


--
gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
Thus spake Paul de Vrieze on Wed, Oct 06, 2004 at 03:32:50AM CDT
> On Wednesday 06 October 2004 09:40, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> > Thus spake Gábor Farkas on Wed, Oct 06, 2004 at 02:23:59AM CDT
>
> > Printers are an Issue in Linux, and it's not just Gentoo. Eric Raymond
> > sent a flame letter to the CUPS people a while back detailing his
> > horror story of setting up a CUPS printer. His story was chillingly
> > similar to my own experience. It was a nightmare! Maybe the Gentoo
> > devs could pick up the ball and make CUPS a little easier to use.
>
> The main problem with cups is the lack of "default" supported printers.
> One needs foomatic or gimp-print-cups to add more printers. Foomatic
> however does not by default provide all printers it knows about to cups
> (Just a matter of generating ppd files and putting them
> in /usr/share/cups/model).

The problem that Eric pointed out, which was what I found out too, is that
the documentation and the UI are written by and for geeks, basically for
geeks who are already experts on Linux printing. This is something that
could certainly be addressed independently of the CUPS project. Once I had
CUPS and foomatic on my system, and sweated and puzzled for a while with the
config files, using CUPS was pretty simple and it 'just worked'. The Gentoo
online docs for getting printing going are excellent, but didn't go the last
mile, although it's been a while and that may have changed. Read
<http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cups-horror.html> if you haven't already
seen it.

<soapbox>
To say the least, Eric is no wilting violet when it comes to Linux software,
but he pointed to something that's should be of concern to all of us. The
open source equivalent of proprietary software's "tech support" that doesn't
support is the FOSS project dev group that doesn't understand the needs of
the non-dev community. Look at the docs on such an otherwise very useful
project and you'll find a changelog, an API description, a FAQ with
questions the average user would _never_ think to ask, prolly a prominent
discussion of the license. I've run into plenty of projects which describe
themselves in terms such as "project x is an upgrade to project y, and
incorporates the evorgutated framus object framework from project z". Duh?
</soapbox>

<strokes>
I've gotta add here the the Gentoo dev community has done an excellent job
of bridging this gap in general. The best of Gentoo documentation consists
of very explicit step-by-step HOWTOs (such as the Gentoo install stuff)
which, if one follows them slavishly, get the job done. At the same time,
they don't try to gloss over tech details or talk down to those of us who
may be fairly knowledgable but don't have time to do a research project in
order to get something configured that ought to be simple.
</strokes>

--
Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works | PGP public key
FMP Computer Services | if you let it" | available at
512-259-1190 | (Travis W. Redfish) | <http://www.fmp.com/pubkeys>
http://www.fmp.com | ("The Roadie") |

--
gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
On Wednesday 06 October 2004 16:51, Stephen P. Becker wrote:
> Of course, there is always the excellent gentoo printing howto:
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/printing-howto.xml
>
> It has never failed to work for me.

Anyone using cups and udev?

Everything worked ok with devsf, but Im often seeing cups stalling when the
printer device is managed by udev. It seems like cups doesnt notice the
device node getting created if the printer gets switched on after cups
starts.


--
Toby Dickenson

--
gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
On Wednesday 06 October 2004 10:30, Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> Actually the new kde and gnome releases both support the same menu files
> IN THE SAME LOCATION. Those files need to be in /usr/share/applications,
> and follow the freedesktop menu specification. The main difference with
> "traditional" kde .desktop files is that a Categories entry must be
> present. With current releases just putting a file there "just works".

Hm, that's good to know. I had in mind, that the used function to create such
a file was replaced by another, but didn't know the status. Nevermind, found
it (man eutils.eclass), but maybe I'm not enough Linuxifed, to like it, that
I have to grep through the files to find out, what the name of the function
may be and where it may be implemented, before using man to get what I want.
The function does not test, if the icon exists btw..


Carsten
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
On Wednesday 06 October 2004 3:43 pm, marcos ferreyra wrote:
> Examples of things that DON'T WORK out-of-the-box are
> * wireless (in my experience, very hard to set up)

(Never tried w/ Gentoo.)

> * software suspend

There is no stable software suspend for Linux at all. Hardly something that
Gentoo can fix without kernel hackers joining one of the projects.

> * printers

Can be fixed by emerging the drivers w/ cups automatically. Perhaps a
USE=extra-drivers adding RDEPENDs

>
> --- Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2004-10-06 at 03:23, Gábor Farkas wrote:
> > > set up a printer in gnome.
> > >
> > > i must admit, maybe i just don't know how to do
> >
> > it.
> >
> > > i usually emerge kdebase, and use kcontrol (kde
> >
> > control center)
> >
> > > to add a cups printer.
> > >
> > > so, if there's a normal way to add a printer in
> >
> > gnome, tell me.
> >
> > emerge gnome-cups-manager
> >
> > I really wish this ebuild would add a .desktop entry
> > to the Desktop
> > Preferences section of my Gnome menu by default. In
> > fact, you might
> > even have it on your system and just not know it.
> >
> > --
> > Chris Gianelloni
> > Release Engineering - Operational/QA Manager
> > Games - Developer
> > Gentoo Linux
> >
> >
> > --
> > gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list
>
> --
> gentoo-desktop@gentoo.org mailing list

--
Luke-Jr
Developer, Utopios
http://utopios.org/
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
On Wednesday 06 October 2004 17:55, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> <soapbox>
> To say the least, Eric is no wilting violet when it comes to Linux
> software, but he pointed to something that's should be of concern to all of
> us. The open source equivalent of proprietary software's "tech support"
> that doesn't support is the FOSS project dev group that doesn't understand
> the needs of the non-dev community. Look at the docs on such an otherwise
> very useful project and you'll find a changelog, an API description, a FAQ
> with questions the average user would _never_ think to ask, prolly a
> prominent discussion of the license. I've run into plenty of projects
> which describe themselves in terms such as "project x is an upgrade to
> project y, and incorporates the evorgutated framus object framework from
> project z". Duh? </soapbox>

Reminds me of the openldap project. There is no documentation whatsoever on
how to actually operate the darn thing beyond the very basics. (Well some
independent, incomplete, howto's you find after some looking around)

Paul

--
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net
Re: What "just works" and what doesn't? [ In reply to ]
On Wednesday 06 October 2004 18:01, Toby Dickenson wrote:
> Anyone using cups and udev?

To my latest knowledge I do.
>
> Everything worked ok with devsf, but Im often seeing cups stalling when the
> printer device is managed by udev. It seems like cups doesnt notice the
> device node getting created if the printer gets switched on after cups
> starts.

Hmm. I do use a parport printer (with auto-on feature) that normally works
(except for stupid permission problems with network printing)

Paul

--
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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