Mailing List Archive

As you can see in the ATI linux driver FAQ at
http://www.ati.com/products/catalyst/linux.html#3
it says
"Systems using 32-bit processors from Intel (Pentium III and later) and
AMD (Athlon and later) are currently supported. 64-bit drivers are under
development, and should be available in a future release."

And you've read yourself that it was promised for end of year, but
previous promises have been broken.

You should be able to come to your own conclusion on this one.

I say if you have the opportunity to trade in your ATI card for an
NVIDIA one, what are you waiting for? Hurry and then make us all jealous
because we can't trade ours in.

On Thu, Sep 16, 2004 at 03:53:24PM +0300, Nikolaos Korkakakis wrote:
> Hello guyz.
>
> I have read the jhuebel post at the forum and it states that somewhere
> in the end of this year the drivers should be out. On the other hand
> ATI's site says absolute nothing about AMD64 and linux [they just have
> a winblo$ beta driver] but nothing is said about linux-64 driver.
> Should I wait for a bit more, or return the god damned card at once
> and buy a nvidia one? My card is the OEM 9800 XT
>
> Thank's in advance. I hope i will soon be able to play tuxracer
> efficiently :-P and watch some glxgears moving ;-)
> --
> Undergraduate Student of CEID
> http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~korkakak
>
> --
> gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
>

--
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

nVidia is good for 2D, but useless otherwise without using proprietary
software *and* tainting the kernel.
The only current solution at the moment AFAIK, is to get a 9200 or lesser
Radeon which has Free 3D support builtin to Linux and X.

On Thursday 16 September 2004 11:39 am, max@maxandcarrie.com wrote:
> As you can see in the ATI linux driver FAQ at
> http://www.ati.com/products/catalyst/linux.html#3
> it says
> "Systems using 32-bit processors from Intel (Pentium III and later) and
> AMD (Athlon and later) are currently supported. 64-bit drivers are under
> development, and should be available in a future release."
>
> And you've read yourself that it was promised for end of year, but
> previous promises have been broken.
>
> You should be able to come to your own conclusion on this one.
>
> I say if you have the opportunity to trade in your ATI card for an
> NVIDIA one, what are you waiting for? Hurry and then make us all jealous
> because we can't trade ours in.
>
> On Thu, Sep 16, 2004 at 03:53:24PM +0300, Nikolaos Korkakakis wrote:
> > Hello guyz.
> >
> > I have read the jhuebel post at the forum and it states that somewhere
> > in the end of this year the drivers should be out. On the other hand
> > ATI's site says absolute nothing about AMD64 and linux [they just have
> > a winblo$ beta driver] but nothing is said about linux-64 driver.
> > Should I wait for a bit more, or return the god damned card at once
> > and buy a nvidia one? My card is the OEM 9800 XT
> >
> > Thank's in advance. I hope i will soon be able to play tuxracer
> > efficiently :-P and watch some glxgears moving ;-)
> > --
> > Undergraduate Student of CEID
> > http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~korkakak
> >
> > --
> > gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
>
> --
> gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

--
Luke-Jr
Developer, Utopios
http://utopios.org/

> nVidia is good for 2D, but useless otherwise without using proprietary
> software *and* tainting the kernel.

translation - Nvidia supports their cards with drivers.

> The only current solution at the moment AFAIK, is to get a 9200 or lesser
> Radeon which has Free 3D support builtin to Linux and X.
>

translation - ATI tells the user community - your're on your own. Support
it yourself and we're giving you minimal information to do so.

Bob

--
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

I'd much rather have very well done proprietary drivers that work on the
state-of-the-art hardware than to have to go with old hardware just to
have open-source drivers . Keep in mind that some companies to have a
need to protect intellectual property. NVIDIA is in business to make
money and not give away technological secrets. Just because we use an
open-source OS does not mean that everyone can do the same with their
software. They also apparently have agreements with other companies hat
prevent them from releasing their drivers as open-source.

I believe in open-source and even have my open-source software out there.
I am also a capitalist pig who believes in making a good living through
innovation and a strong product. Choose your fights wisely. I believe
that as long as they continue to supply the level of support that they
have in the past, we have nothing to complain about.

Lastly, this is a subject that has been beaten to death everywhere. Let's
take it off this mailing list. You're welcome to visit the forums at my
site to vent any further:
http://www.linuxhardware.org/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi

Thanks,
Kris Kersey (Augustus)
LinuxHardware.org Site Manager
augustus@linuxhardware.org
Gentoo Linux AMD64 Developer
augustus@gentoo.org

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004, Bob Sanders wrote:

>> nVidia is good for 2D, but useless otherwise without using proprietary
>> software *and* tainting the kernel.
>
> translation - Nvidia supports their cards with drivers.
>
>> The only current solution at the moment AFAIK, is to get a 9200 or lesser
>> Radeon which has Free 3D support builtin to Linux and X.
>>
>
> translation - ATI tells the user community - your're on your own. Support
> it yourself and we're giving you minimal information to do so.
>
> Bob
>
> --
> gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
>

--
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

On Thursday 16 September 2004 5:22 pm, Bob Sanders wrote:
> > nVidia is good for 2D, but useless otherwise without using proprietary
> > software *and* tainting the kernel.
>
> translation - Nvidia supports their cards with drivers.

Proprietary drivers, which may as well not exist.

>
> > The only current solution at the moment AFAIK, is to get a 9200 or lesser
> > Radeon which has Free 3D support builtin to Linux and X.
>
> translation - ATI tells the user community - your're on your own. Support
> it yourself and we're giving you minimal information to do so.

IIRC, ATi provided quite a bit of technical details to the DRI project for the
drivers. Either way, the result is 3D for ATi and 2D for nv

>
> Bob
--
Luke-Jr
Developer, Utopios
http://utopios.org/

On Thursday 16 September 2004 5:36 pm, augustus@linuxhardware.org wrote:
> I'd much rather have very well done proprietary drivers that work on the
> state-of-the-art hardware than to have to go with old hardware just to
> have open-source drivers .

Proprietary software is not only immoral, but it is also probably the biggest
problem with moving to a different platform or OS.

> Keep in mind that some companies to have a need to protect intellectual
> property.

I do not believe in intellectual property. I do believe that people should be
encouraged to share and not threatened into selfishness.

> NVIDIA is in business to make money and not give away technological secrets.

Drivers aren't going to be any use to people who don't buy their cards.
Especially for drivers, there is no argument in this area.

> Just because we use an
> open-source OS does not mean that everyone can do the same with their
> software.

It is their own fault if they cannot (NDAs or whatever).

> They also apparently have agreements with other companies hat
> prevent them from releasing their drivers as open-source.

Which is the company's fault. They can take the responsibility of negotiating
new terms or replacing such NDA-covered code.

>
> I believe in open-source and even have my open-source software out there.
> I am also a capitalist pig who believes in making a good living through
> innovation and a strong product. Choose your fights wisely. I believe
> that as long as they continue to supply the level of support that they
> have in the past, we have nothing to complain about.

I refuse to buy or use proprietary software. If you want me to buy anything
you write, it had better be at least open source. I'd be a lot more likely to
consider it if the license also allows for redistribution.

>
> Lastly, this is a subject that has been beaten to death everywhere. Let's
> take it off this mailing list. You're welcome to visit the forums at my
> site to vent any further:
> http://www.linuxhardware.org/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi
>
> Thanks,
> Kris Kersey (Augustus)
> LinuxHardware.org Site Manager
> augustus@linuxhardware.org
> Gentoo Linux AMD64 Developer
> augustus@gentoo.org
>
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004, Bob Sanders wrote:
> >> nVidia is good for 2D, but useless otherwise without using proprietary
> >> software *and* tainting the kernel.
> >
> > translation - Nvidia supports their cards with drivers.
> >
> >> The only current solution at the moment AFAIK, is to get a 9200 or
> >> lesser Radeon which has Free 3D support builtin to Linux and X.
> >
> > translation - ATI tells the user community - your're on your own.
> > Support it yourself and we're giving you minimal information to do so.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > --
> > gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
>
> --
> gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

--
Luke-Jr
Developer, Utopios
http://utopios.org/

This is a little silly in my opinion. We build Image generators
(flight sims) with linux now *waves bye to SGI* now that nvidia has
frame lock capable cards. I sleep well at night despite the
proprietary drivers :)
They work great, and it blows away being a slave to Silicon Graphics.
My two cents, maybe I'm just too much of a realist. If it works, it
works. If it works great, even better.


-Drew

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:28:29 +0000, Luke-Jr <luke-jr@utopios.org> wrote:
> On Thursday 16 September 2004 5:22 pm, Bob Sanders wrote:
> > > nVidia is good for 2D, but useless otherwise without using proprietary
> > > software *and* tainting the kernel.
> >
> > translation - Nvidia supports their cards with drivers.
>
> Proprietary drivers, which may as well not exist.
>
> >
> > > The only current solution at the moment AFAIK, is to get a 9200 or lesser
> > > Radeon which has Free 3D support builtin to Linux and X.
> >
> > translation - ATI tells the user community - your're on your own. Support
> > it yourself and we're giving you minimal information to do so.
>
> IIRC, ATi provided quite a bit of technical details to the DRI project for the
> drivers. Either way, the result is 3D for ATi and 2D for nv
>
> >
> > Bob
>
>
> --
> Luke-Jr
> Developer, Utopios
> http://utopios.org/
>
>
>
>

--
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

In fact I do agree...

With the idea of comletely destroying the market with fully open
source drivers. Of course you should be aware that many things will
change if propietary software vanquishes, imagine a world without
property. Are you prepared?
The easy answer is ok, but talk the talk, do you walk the walk? The
hard Q is how. Now there are political-economic and social points of
view in answering my Q's. What are yours?


-
Undergraduate Student of CEID
http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~korkakak

--
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Luke-Jr posted <200409162134.33169.luke-jr@utopios.org>, excerpted below,
on Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:34:30 +0000:

> Proprietary software is not only immoral, but it is also probably the
> biggest problem with moving to a different platform or OS.
>
> I refuse to buy or use proprietary software. If you want me to buy
> anything you write, it had better be at least open source. I'd be a lot
> more likely to consider it if the license also allows for redistribution.

Thanks for your replies, saying what I was going to so I don't have to.
Well put.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --
Benjamin Franklin



--
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

I find this view rather disturbing, say I own a software company, me
and my developers write a CAD app. Its cost me money in man hours,
resources etc. Why in the hell should I give the source code away?

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:33:22 -0700, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
> Luke-Jr posted <200409162134.33169.luke-jr@utopios.org>, excerpted below,
> on Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:34:30 +0000:
>
> > Proprietary software is not only immoral, but it is also probably the
> > biggest problem with moving to a different platform or OS.
> >
> > I refuse to buy or use proprietary software. If you want me to buy
> > anything you write, it had better be at least open source. I'd be a lot
> > more likely to consider it if the license also allows for redistribution.
>
> Thanks for your replies, saying what I was going to so I don't have to.
> Well put.

--
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

On Thursday 16 September 2004 4:34 pm, Luke-Jr wrote:
> On Thursday 16 September 2004 5:36 pm, augustus@linuxhardware.org wrote:
> > I'd much rather have very well done proprietary drivers that work on the
> > state-of-the-art hardware than to have to go with old hardware just to
> > have open-source drivers .
>
> Proprietary software is not only immoral, but it is also probably the
> biggest problem with moving to a different platform or OS.

This is a idealistic, naive comment. While Nvidia isn't providing insight
into the inner workings of their drivers/hardware, they are still providing
quality drivers for their product for our open sourced operating system.

The important point is that Nvidia is prodiving support. ATI is providing
neither 64bit drivers nor specs. If Nvidia didn't provide drivers /or/
specs, then you would have a complaint.

Anyway, getting back on topic. The user was asking for a realistic idea of
when he can expect ATI 3d support. To that, I can only tell you that ATI has
64bit drivers "in development". They have never officially provided a
release date for the drivers, but have changed their unofficial estimates of
the release a couple of times. First, they said "this summer", then they
said "late summer" and now they're saying "this year". That's frustrating,
to be sure.

If you want/need 3d accelleration anytime soon, then I would suggest returning
your ATI card while you're under warranty and replace it with an NVidia card.
I have a GeForceFX 5900 which has served me well so far.

So nobody claims I have an Nvidia bias, I also have an ATI All-In-Wonder
Radeon which has served me very well. My laptop has an ATI Radeon Mobility
9000. I have no complaints with it either. But the simple fact is that
there isn't 3d support for high-end ATI cards.

--
Jason Huebel
Gentoo/amd64 Strategic Lead
Gentoo Developer Relations/Recruiter

GPG Public Key:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9BA9E230

"Do not weep; do not wax indignant. Understand."
Baruch Spinoza (1632 - 1677)

On Thursday 16 September 2004 10:42 pm, Catherine Heathcote wrote:
> I find this view rather disturbing, say I own a software company, me
> and my developers write a CAD app. Its cost me money in man hours,
> resources etc. Why in the hell should I give the source code away?

Who said give the source away? Simply include it with the binaries like you
should so I can modify it, fix bugs, port to other OS, and recompile for my
platform.

>
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:33:22 -0700, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
> > Luke-Jr posted <200409162134.33169.luke-jr@utopios.org>, excerpted below,
> >
> > on Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:34:30 +0000:
> > > Proprietary software is not only immoral, but it is also probably the
> > > biggest problem with moving to a different platform or OS.
> > >
> > > I refuse to buy or use proprietary software. If you want me to buy
> > > anything you write, it had better be at least open source. I'd be a lot
> > > more likely to consider it if the license also allows for
> > > redistribution.
> >
> > Thanks for your replies, saying what I was going to so I don't have to.
> > Well put.
>
> --
> gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

--
Luke-Jr
Developer, Utopios
http://utopios.org/

On Thursday 16 September 2004 10:23 pm, Nikolaos Korkakakis wrote:
> In fact I do agree...
>
> With the idea of comletely destroying the market with fully open
> source drivers. Of course you should be aware that many things will
> change if propietary software vanquishes, imagine a world without
> property. Are you prepared?

Physical things are limited in number. You can't treat information, which can
be duplicated infinite times without any loss or degradation of the original,
in the same way.

> The easy answer is ok, but talk the talk, do you walk the walk?

I sure do. I run nothing unless I have the source for it, and I can't say I'm
missing out on much, if anything. Sure, a virtualizer (which only exist as
proprietary software) might work better than BOCHS, but in the end, I think I
would use BOCHS anyway since it doesn't risk affecting my system (running as
a normal user).

> The hard Q is how.

Quite easy. Running a non-x86-compatible platform (x86-64 with 32-bit mode
disabled included) is very helpful with this.

> Now there are political-economic and social points of
> view in answering my Q's. What are yours?
>
>
> -
> Undergraduate Student of CEID
> http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~korkakak
>
> --
> gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

--
Luke-Jr
Developer, Utopios
http://utopios.org/

On Thursday 16 September 2004 11:47 pm, Jason Huebel wrote:
> On Thursday 16 September 2004 4:34 pm, Luke-Jr wrote:
> > On Thursday 16 September 2004 5:36 pm, augustus@linuxhardware.org wrote:
> > > I'd much rather have very well done proprietary drivers that work on
> > > the state-of-the-art hardware than to have to go with old hardware just
> > > to have open-source drivers .
> >
> > Proprietary software is not only immoral, but it is also probably the
> > biggest problem with moving to a different platform or OS.
>
> This is a idealistic, naive comment. While Nvidia isn't providing insight
> into the inner workings of their drivers/hardware, they are still providing
> quality drivers for their product for our open sourced operating system.

I use Linux for 2 primary reasons: 1) it works best; 2) it is Free software
If companies do not wish to write drivers for my OS, I will simply not buy
their hardware. *They* are the ones who will lose out.

>
> The important point is that Nvidia is prodiving support.

I would rather nVidia *not* provide any support that way it would be more
likely the Free drivers and DRI would support their cards.

> ATI is providing neither 64bit drivers nor specs.

As with nVidia, even if they provided such 64-bit drivers I would refuse to
use them without proper source code.

> If Nvidia didn't provide drivers /or/ specs, then you would have a
> complaint.

Providing proprietary drivers is worse than providing none at all. So, I have
an even worse complaint that your proposed situation.

--
Luke-Jr
Developer, Utopios
http://utopios.org/

Luke-Jr wrote:

> I sure do. I run nothing unless I have the source for it

do you have the source code to your bios?


--
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

On Friday 17 September 2004 12:18 am, peter bleszynski wrote:
> Luke-Jr wrote:
> > I sure do. I run nothing unless I have the source for it
>
> do you have the source code to your bios?

Indeed you are right, I do not. Thank you for pointing this out. I will be
experimenting with LinuxBIOS ASAP.
--
Luke-Jr
Developer, Utopios
http://utopios.org/

On Friday 17 September 2004 1:26 am, B Vance wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-09-16 at 19:05, Luke-Jr wrote:
> > On Thursday 16 September 2004 11:47 pm, Jason Huebel wrote:
> > > On Thursday 16 September 2004 4:34 pm, Luke-Jr wrote:
> > > > On Thursday 16 September 2004 5:36 pm, augustus@linuxhardware.org
wrote:
> > > > > I'd much rather have very well done proprietary drivers that work
> > > > > on the state-of-the-art hardware than to have to go with old
> > > > > hardware just to have open-source drivers .
> > > >
> > > > Proprietary software is not only immoral, but it is also probably the
> > > > biggest problem with moving to a different platform or OS.
>
> Morality has nothing to do with whether software is proprietary or open
> source.

It sure does. Proprietary software restricts the freedom of those outside the
company producing it.

> Proprietary software does hinder moving between platforms, but
> look at it from a support view point. You transfer their product to
> another platform, how can they provide the support they're obligated to
> provide? Soon the company gets a reputation for lousy support.

I can't think of any case where manufacturers provide support to anyone
inexperienced with computers. I also don't see people expecting support when
they have modified the drivers from what was downloaded on the webpage.
And overall, I'd much rather be able to debug/port the driver myself than have
no driver whatsoever. I'm pretty sure this would be the case for anyone.

>
> > > This is a idealistic, naive comment. While Nvidia isn't providing
> > > insight into the inner workings of their drivers/hardware, they are
> > > still providing quality drivers for their product for our open sourced
> > > operating system.
> >
> > I use Linux for 2 primary reasons: 1) it works best; 2) it is Free
> > software If companies do not wish to write drivers for my OS, I will
> > simply not buy their hardware. *They* are the ones who will lose out.
>
> This view is a bit short sighted. Outside the server room, Linux isn't
> big enough to provide much of an income for any hardware producer. They
> may lose a little, but frocussing their eyes on the bigger prize, is far
> more profitable for them.

That will soon change. Also note, I intend to stop using Linux as soon as the
HURD makes for a good replacement. Will nVidia be providing HURD drivers
soon? I highly doubt it...

>
> > > The important point is that Nvidia is prodiving support.
> >
> > I would rather nVidia *not* provide any support that way it would be more
> > likely the Free drivers and DRI would support their cards.
>
> Umm thanks for asking that Nvidia not provide a perfectly suitable
> driver for their hardware to me. I have no trouble with Nvidia keeping
> their secrets from me. It allows them to honestly compete with ATI, and
> creates far better cards then either could by mere copying.

Actually, if ATi and nVidia copied each other just as Intel and AMD do, it
would probably help the market a lot. ATi won't need to reinvent nVidia's
technology and nVidia won't need to reinvent ATi's... Then all effort could
be focused on *new* things, to be copied by the competition a few months (6
for Intel/AMD, IIRC) down the line.

>
> > > ATI is providing neither 64bit drivers nor specs.
> >
> > As with nVidia, even if they provided such 64-bit drivers I would refuse
> > to use them without proper source code.
>
> That's your perogative, but others arn't as fanatical about it, and
> would rather just have something that works. That's why I use Linux.
> It "Just Works"

BTW, try getting Linux support for your system. You'll soon find that most, if
not all, Linux developers will refuse to even begin messing with any problems
you have. You still consider it a minor issue?

--
Luke-Jr
Developer, Utopios
http://utopios.org/

On Thu, 2004-09-16 at 21:11, Nuitari wrote:
> I am honestly getting tired of the NVIDIA proprietary vs NVIDIA open vs
> ATI debate on this list.

I agree, I would like it to end.


--
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

I am honestly getting tired of the NVIDIA proprietary vs NVIDIA open vs
ATI debate on this list.

Here is the situation, NVIDIA releases proprietary driver. Don't like it ?
Get an old card that works with the open-source one.

ATI doesn't support amd64 yet. The drivers are going to be proprietary
anyways. Their x86 drivers are crap too. You also have the option of
getting an older card and have the open drivers.

Don't like that companies don't release the specs? Ask the companies to do
it.

Can someone put this in a FAQ somewhere and let's all move on to more
pressing issues?

--
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

On Thu, 2004-09-16 at 19:05, Luke-Jr wrote:
> On Thursday 16 September 2004 11:47 pm, Jason Huebel wrote:
> > On Thursday 16 September 2004 4:34 pm, Luke-Jr wrote:
> > > On Thursday 16 September 2004 5:36 pm, augustus@linuxhardware.org wrote:
> > > > I'd much rather have very well done proprietary drivers that work on
> > > > the state-of-the-art hardware than to have to go with old hardware just
> > > > to have open-source drivers .
> > >
> > > Proprietary software is not only immoral, but it is also probably the
> > > biggest problem with moving to a different platform or OS.
> >
Morality has nothing to do with whether software is proprietary or open
source. Proprietary software does hinder moving between platforms, but
look at it from a support view point. You transfer their product to
another platform, how can they provide the support they're obligated to
provide? Soon the company gets a reputation for lousy support.
> > This is a idealistic, naive comment. While Nvidia isn't providing insight
> > into the inner workings of their drivers/hardware, they are still providing
> > quality drivers for their product for our open sourced operating system.
>
> I use Linux for 2 primary reasons: 1) it works best; 2) it is Free software
> If companies do not wish to write drivers for my OS, I will simply not buy
> their hardware. *They* are the ones who will lose out.
>
This view is a bit short sighted. Outside the server room, Linux isn't
big enough to provide much of an income for any hardware producer. They
may lose a little, but frocussing their eyes on the bigger prize, is far
more profitable for them.
> >
> > The important point is that Nvidia is prodiving support.
>
> I would rather nVidia *not* provide any support that way it would be more
> likely the Free drivers and DRI would support their cards.
>
Umm thanks for asking that Nvidia not provide a perfectly suitable
driver for their hardware to me. I have no trouble with Nvidia keeping
their secrets from me. It allows them to honestly compete with ATI, and
creates far better cards then either could by mere copying.

> > ATI is providing neither 64bit drivers nor specs.
>
> As with nVidia, even if they provided such 64-bit drivers I would refuse to
> use them without proper source code.
>
That's your perogative, but others arn't as fanatical about it, and
would rather just have something that works. That's why I use Linux.
It "Just Works"
> > If Nvidia didn't provide drivers /or/ specs, then you would have a
> > complaint.
>
> Providing proprietary drivers is worse than providing none at all. So, I have
> an even worse complaint that your proposed situation.
Again, not all are as fanatical.


--
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

On Thursday 16 September 2004 7:42 pm, Luke-Jr wrote:
> It sure does. Proprietary software restricts the freedom of those outside
> the company producing it.

My freedoms aren't hindered in any way by NVidia writing proprietary drivers
that support my platform. They work. Also, Nvidia is responsive to our
requests for support and new features.

> I can't think of any case where manufacturers provide support to anyone
> inexperienced with computers. I also don't see people expecting support
> when they have modified the drivers from what was downloaded on the
> webpage. And overall, I'd much rather be able to debug/port the driver
> myself than have no driver whatsoever. I'm pretty sure this would be the
> case for anyone.

First, you must not have any real world experience in a helpdesk environment.
There are plenty of morons who call for support. There are people who
simply /should not/ touch a computer. Nurses at hospitals are a prime
example. There are some nurses who simply don't have the mental wherewithall
to operate a computer.

> That will soon change. Also note, I intend to stop using Linux as soon as
> the HURD makes for a good replacement. Will nVidia be providing HURD
> drivers soon? I highly doubt it...

The HURD? Seriously? How long have we been waiting for the HURD? 5 years? 10?
Frankly, the Linux community is better off without fanatical idealism. I'm
idealistic in some things, but not to the point of inflexibility.

> BTW, try getting Linux support for your system. You'll soon find that most,
> if not all, Linux developers will refuse to even begin messing with any
> problems you have. You still consider it a minor issue?

I /am/ support for my system (see job title below). And there are MANY
developers who are willing to provide support to users with or without
proprietary NVidia video drivers. Additionally, there are many developers
who are willing to troubleshoot issues and provide feedback to NVidia
technical support. They provide us with useful drivers, we provide them with
feedback on issues.

The nice part about Linux is that there are plenty of distributions out there.
If one distribution doesn't provide the support you need, you can switch to
another. If you're not happy with the support that the Gentoo community is
providing for your amd64 installation, perhaps Fedora, Mandrake, SUSE or
Debian unstable will serve you better?

--
Jason Huebel
Gentoo/amd64 Strategic Lead
Gentoo Developer Relations/Recruiter

GPG Public Key:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9BA9E230

"Do not weep; do not wax indignant. Understand."
Baruch Spinoza (1632 - 1677)

On Friday 17 September 2004 10:11 pm, Jason Huebel wrote:
> On Thursday 16 September 2004 7:42 pm, Luke-Jr wrote:
> > It sure does. Proprietary software restricts the freedom of those outside
> > the company producing it.
>
> My freedoms aren't hindered in any way by NVidia writing proprietary
> drivers that support my platform. They work. Also, Nvidia is responsive to
> our requests for support and new features.

Ok. So if I, as a single user, ask for an ARM driver for my old TNT2, they
will provide it? I *highly* doubt it.

>
> > I can't think of any case where manufacturers provide support to anyone
> > inexperienced with computers. I also don't see people expecting support
> > when they have modified the drivers from what was downloaded on the
> > webpage. And overall, I'd much rather be able to debug/port the driver
> > myself than have no driver whatsoever. I'm pretty sure this would be the
> > case for anyone.
>
> First, you must not have any real world experience in a helpdesk
> environment.

Plenty.

> There are plenty of morons who call for support.

Yep.

> There are people who simply /should not/ touch a computer.

Correct.

> Nurses at hospitals are a prime example. There are some nurses who simply
> don't have the mental wherewithall to operate a computer.

Probably, though I've never dealt with nurses.

However, none of these kinds of people are going to know *how* to find
unofficial drivers nor how to compile source code, let alone modify it.

>
> > That will soon change. Also note, I intend to stop using Linux as soon as
> > the HURD makes for a good replacement. Will nVidia be providing HURD
> > drivers soon? I highly doubt it...
>
> The HURD? Seriously? How long have we been waiting for the HURD? 5 years?
> 10?

Probably about 12.

> Frankly, the Linux community is better off without fanatical idealism.
> I'm idealistic in some things, but not to the point of inflexibility.

I'm more of a part of the Free Software community over the Linux community.

>
> > BTW, try getting Linux support for your system. You'll soon find that
> > most, if not all, Linux developers will refuse to even begin messing with
> > any problems you have. You still consider it a minor issue?
>
> I /am/ support for my system (see job title below). And there are MANY
> developers who are willing to provide support to users with or without
> proprietary NVidia video drivers. Additionally, there are many developers
> who are willing to troubleshoot issues and provide feedback to NVidia
> technical support. They provide us with useful drivers, we provide them
> with feedback on issues.
>
> The nice part about Linux is that there are plenty of distributions out
> there. If one distribution doesn't provide the support you need, you can
> switch to another. If you're not happy with the support that the Gentoo
> community is providing for your amd64 installation, perhaps Fedora,
> Mandrake, SUSE or Debian unstable will serve you better?

I am not talking about Gentoo support. I am talking about Linux support.
Loading such drivers marks your kernel as tainted. The reason for the tainted
flag is so Linux developers know to skip any bug reports with it.
--
Luke-Jr
Developer, Utopios
http://utopios.org/

On Saturday 18 September 2004 10:45 pm, Kyle Schlansker wrote:
> Luke-Jr wrote:
> > That will soon change. Also note, I intend to stop using Linux as soon as
> > the HURD makes for a good replacement. Will nVidia be providing HURD
> > drivers soon? I highly doubt it...
>
> wait wait wait. Are you abandoning your utopios project?

Not at all.

> Shouldn't you be coding some free software about now?

One can email at the same time as code.

> On that note, I challenge your claim that Utopios will be a "new operating
> system". It sounds to me like its just another Linux distribution, or
> should I say GNU/Linux distribution :)

Linux is a mere kernel. You may be right in classifying it as Linux distro for
now, but as mentioned above, once there is a usable alternative that could
soon change. If not the HURD, possibly BSD or Darwin (though not likely
unless either suddenly work with glibc). "Linux distribution" restricts
things to using Linux for a kernel and overemphasises it. What end user cares
what particular kernel their computer uses? Most probably don't care about
the commandline userland and only about the DE.
--
Luke-Jr
Developer, Utopios
http://utopios.org/