Mailing List Archive

Feb 4, 2004, 3:43 AM

Post #2 of 14 (2724 views)

dbmail currently uses the Return-Path header. If it cannot find such a
header, it uses the From header.

What would you suggest we do: search for the Sender and/or Errors-To
header and use that as a return address? Does this always work?

thanks,
Ilja

Christian G. Warden wrote:

> I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before, but dbmail doesn't
> seem to generate bounces correctly. I don't generate bounces within
> dbmail so I've never noticed this.
>
> Here is a bounce I got from a dbmail user in response to a message sent
> to the dbmail list.
> It does a few things wrong. The envelope sender is not <> as it should
> be, and the message is sent to the address in the From header rather
> than the envelope sender.
> How does dbmail determine the sender of a message that a bounce must be
> sent to? It doesn't look like the MTA of the user in question adds a
> header with the envelope sender, but Errors-To and Sender would be
> better choices than From.
>
> xn
>
> ----- Forwarded message from dbmail-bounce@netel.bg -----
>
> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:32:23 +0200 (EET)
> From: dbmail-bounce@netel.bg
> To: xndbmail@xerus.org
> Subject: DBMAIL: delivery failure
>
> This is the DBMAIL-SMTP program.
>
> I'm sorry to inform you that your message, addressed to naso,
> could not be delivered due to the following error.
>
> *** Mailbox of user naso is FULL ***
>
> If you think this message is incorrect please contact postmaster@netel.bg.
>
> Header of your message follows...
>
>
> --- header of your message ---
> Received: from twister.fastxs.net (unknown [213.214.98.20])
> by mail.netel.bg (Postfix) with ESMTP
> id C69575C004FF; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:32:16 +0200 (EET)
> Received: from twister.fastxs.net (localhost [127.0.0.1])
> by twister.fastxs.net (Postfix) with ESMTP
> id 2E7E37BE71; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:32:02 +0100 (CET)
> Received: from cayenne.xerus.org (adsl-66-51-218-170.dslextreme.com [66.51.218.170])
> by twister.fastxs.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C58A87B46F
> for <dbmail@dbmail.org>; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:30:59 +0100 (CET)
> Received: from safron ([192.168.1.5] helo=safron.xerus.org)
> by cayenne.xerus.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30 #1 (Debian))
> id 1Ao886-0007C2-3t
> for <dbmail@dbmail.org>; Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:30:46 -0800
> Received: from cwarden by safron.xerus.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian))
> id 1Ao88J-00071c-00
> for <dbmail@dbmail.org>; Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:30:59 -0800
> From: "Christian G. Warden" <xndbmail@xerus.org>
> To: dbmail@dbmail.org
> Subject: Re: [Dbmail] dbmail-smtp and imap folders
> Message-ID: <20040203213059.GS18848@xerus.org>
> References: <200402032143.20330.nervo@nervo.net> <200402032110.i13LABO9003894@dbmail-mx4.orcon.co.nz>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Disposition: inline
> In-Reply-To: <200402032110.i13LABO9003894@dbmail-mx4.orcon.co.nz>
> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i
> Sender: dbmail-admin@dbmail.org
> Errors-To: dbmail-admin@dbmail.org
> X-BeenThere: dbmail@dbmail.org
> X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.10
> Precedence: bulk
> Reply-To: dbmail@dbmail.org
> List-Help: <mailto:dbmail-request@dbmail.org?subject=help>
> List-Post: <mailto:dbmail@dbmail.org>
> List-Subscribe: <https://mailman.fastxs.nl/mailman/listinfo/dbmail>,
> <mailto:dbmail-request@dbmail.org?subject=subscribe>
> List-Id: <dbmail.dbmail.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <https://mailman.fastxs.nl/mailman/listinfo/dbmail>,
> <mailto:dbmail-request@dbmail.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> List-Archive: <https://mailman.fastxs.nl/pipermail/dbmail/>
> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 13:30:59 -0800
>
> --- end of header ---
>
>
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> _______________________________________________
> Dbmail-dev mailing list
> Dbmail-dev@dbmail.org
> http://twister.fastxs.net/mailman/listinfo/dbmail-dev

--
IC&S
Stadhouderslaan 57
3583 JD Utrecht

PGP-key:
http://www.ic-s.nl/keys/ilja.txt

Re: bounces [ In reply to ]

Feb 4, 2004, 6:15 AM

Post #3 of 14 (2728 views)

Based on my reading, I think that DBMail should not generate bounces at all.
Rather, appropriate temporary-failure and permanent-failure return codes
should come from dbmail-smtp and DSN codes from dbmail-lmtpd, along with
additional descriptive text in both cases, and the MTA will do the rest.

If this is the case, I can remove the bounce call from pipe.c right now; I'm
working on refining the delivery chain to produce appropriate error codes for
various failure conditions. Making sure to emit bounce codes for situations
which would have called the bounce() function won't be too hard.

Aaron

Ilja Booij <ilja@ic-s.nl> said:

> dbmail currently uses the Return-Path header. If it cannot find such a
> header, it uses the From header.
>
> What would you suggest we do: search for the Sender and/or Errors-To
> header and use that as a return address? Does this always work?
>
> thanks,
> Ilja
>
> Christian G. Warden wrote:
>
> > I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before, but dbmail doesn't
> > seem to generate bounces correctly. I don't generate bounces within
> > dbmail so I've never noticed this.
> >
> > Here is a bounce I got from a dbmail user in response to a message sent
> > to the dbmail list.
> > It does a few things wrong. The envelope sender is not <> as it should
> > be, and the message is sent to the address in the From header rather
> > than the envelope sender.
> > How does dbmail determine the sender of a message that a bounce must be
> > sent to? It doesn't look like the MTA of the user in question adds a
> > header with the envelope sender, but Errors-To and Sender would be
> > better choices than From.
> >
> > xn
> >
> > ----- Forwarded message from dbmail-bounce@netel.bg -----
> >
> > Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:32:23 +0200 (EET)
> > From: dbmail-bounce@netel.bg
> > To: xndbmail@xerus.org
> > Subject: DBMAIL: delivery failure
> >
> > This is the DBMAIL-SMTP program.
> >
> > I'm sorry to inform you that your message, addressed to naso,
> > could not be delivered due to the following error.
> >
> > *** Mailbox of user naso is FULL ***
> >
> > If you think this message is incorrect please contact postmaster@netel.bg.
> >
> > Header of your message follows...
> >
> >
> > --- header of your message ---
> > Received: from twister.fastxs.net (unknown [213.214.98.20])
> > by mail.netel.bg (Postfix) with ESMTP
> > id C69575C004FF; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:32:16 +0200 (EET)
> > Received: from twister.fastxs.net (localhost [127.0.0.1])
> > by twister.fastxs.net (Postfix) with ESMTP
> > id 2E7E37BE71; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:32:02 +0100 (CET)
> > Received: from cayenne.xerus.org (adsl-66-51-218-170.dslextreme.com
[66.51.218.170])
> > by twister.fastxs.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C58A87B46F
> > for <dbmail@dbmail.org>; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:30:59 +0100 (CET)
> > Received: from safron ([192.168.1.5] helo=safron.xerus.org)
> > by cayenne.xerus.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30 #1 (Debian))
> > id 1Ao886-0007C2-3t
> > for <dbmail@dbmail.org>; Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:30:46 -0800
> > Received: from cwarden by safron.xerus.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian))
> > id 1Ao88J-00071c-00
> > for <dbmail@dbmail.org>; Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:30:59 -0800
> > From: "Christian G. Warden" <xndbmail@xerus.org>
> > To: dbmail@dbmail.org
> > Subject: Re: [Dbmail] dbmail-smtp and imap folders
> > Message-ID: <20040203213059.GS18848@xerus.org>
> > References: <200402032143.20330.nervo@nervo.net>
<200402032110.i13LABO9003894@dbmail-mx4.orcon.co.nz>
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > Content-Disposition: inline
> > In-Reply-To: <200402032110.i13LABO9003894@dbmail-mx4.orcon.co.nz>
> > User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i
> > Sender: dbmail-admin@dbmail.org
> > Errors-To: dbmail-admin@dbmail.org
> > X-BeenThere: dbmail@dbmail.org
> > X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.10
> > Precedence: bulk
> > Reply-To: dbmail@dbmail.org
> > List-Help: <mailto:dbmail-request@dbmail.org?subject=help>
> > List-Post: <mailto:dbmail@dbmail.org>
> > List-Subscribe: <https://mailman.fastxs.nl/mailman/listinfo/dbmail>,
> > <mailto:dbmail-request@dbmail.org?subject=subscribe>
> > List-Id: <dbmail.dbmail.org>
> > List-Unsubscribe: <https://mailman.fastxs.nl/mailman/listinfo/dbmail>,
> > <mailto:dbmail-request@dbmail.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > List-Archive: <https://mailman.fastxs.nl/pipermail/dbmail/>
> > Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 13:30:59 -0800
> >
> > --- end of header ---
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- End forwarded message -----
> > _______________________________________________
> > Dbmail-dev mailing list
> > Dbmail-dev@dbmail.org
> > http://twister.fastxs.net/mailman/listinfo/dbmail-dev
>
> --
> IC&S
> Stadhouderslaan 57
> 3583 JD Utrecht
>
> PGP-key:
> http://www.ic-s.nl/keys/ilja.txt
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dbmail-dev mailing list
> Dbmail-dev@dbmail.org
> http://twister.fastxs.net/mailman/listinfo/dbmail-dev
>

--

Re: bounces [ In reply to ]

Feb 4, 2004, 6:24 AM

Post #4 of 14 (2717 views)

Hi,

Seems like a good idea to me. Let the MTA do what the MTA does best, and
let DBMail store the emails. Along the same lines: Can't we use the MTA
sending forwards and domain forwards in the same manner?

Ilja

Aaron Stone wrote:

> Based on my reading, I think that DBMail should not generate bounces at all.
> Rather, appropriate temporary-failure and permanent-failure return codes
> should come from dbmail-smtp and DSN codes from dbmail-lmtpd, along with
> additional descriptive text in both cases, and the MTA will do the rest.
>
> If this is the case, I can remove the bounce call from pipe.c right now; I'm
> working on refining the delivery chain to produce appropriate error codes for
> various failure conditions. Making sure to emit bounce codes for situations
> which would have called the bounce() function won't be too hard.
>
> Aaron
>
>
> Ilja Booij <ilja@ic-s.nl> said:
>
>
>>dbmail currently uses the Return-Path header. If it cannot find such a
>>header, it uses the From header.
>>
>>What would you suggest we do: search for the Sender and/or Errors-To
>>header and use that as a return address? Does this always work?
>>
>>thanks,
>>Ilja
>>
>>Christian G. Warden wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before, but dbmail doesn't
>>>seem to generate bounces correctly. I don't generate bounces within
>>>dbmail so I've never noticed this.
>>>
>>>Here is a bounce I got from a dbmail user in response to a message sent
>>>to the dbmail list.
>>>It does a few things wrong. The envelope sender is not <> as it should
>>>be, and the message is sent to the address in the From header rather
>>>than the envelope sender.
>>>How does dbmail determine the sender of a message that a bounce must be
>>>sent to? It doesn't look like the MTA of the user in question adds a
>>>header with the envelope sender, but Errors-To and Sender would be
>>>better choices than From.
>>>
>>>xn
>>>
>>>----- Forwarded message from dbmail-bounce@netel.bg -----
>>>
>>>Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:32:23 +0200 (EET)
>>>From: dbmail-bounce@netel.bg
>>>To: xndbmail@xerus.org
>>>Subject: DBMAIL: delivery failure
>>>
>>>This is the DBMAIL-SMTP program.
>>>
>>>I'm sorry to inform you that your message, addressed to naso,
>>>could not be delivered due to the following error.
>>>
>>>*** Mailbox of user naso is FULL ***
>>>
>>>If you think this message is incorrect please contact postmaster@netel.bg.
>>>
>>>Header of your message follows...
>>>
>>>
>>>--- header of your message ---
>>>Received: from twister.fastxs.net (unknown [213.214.98.20])
>>> by mail.netel.bg (Postfix) with ESMTP
>>> id C69575C004FF; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:32:16 +0200 (EET)
>>>Received: from twister.fastxs.net (localhost [127.0.0.1])
>>> by twister.fastxs.net (Postfix) with ESMTP
>>> id 2E7E37BE71; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:32:02 +0100 (CET)
>>>Received: from cayenne.xerus.org (adsl-66-51-218-170.dslextreme.com
>
> [66.51.218.170])
>
>>> by twister.fastxs.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C58A87B46F
>>> for <dbmail@dbmail.org>; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:30:59 +0100 (CET)
>>>Received: from safron ([192.168.1.5] helo=safron.xerus.org)
>>> by cayenne.xerus.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30 #1 (Debian))
>>> id 1Ao886-0007C2-3t
>>> for <dbmail@dbmail.org>; Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:30:46 -0800
>>>Received: from cwarden by safron.xerus.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian))
>>> id 1Ao88J-00071c-00
>>> for <dbmail@dbmail.org>; Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:30:59 -0800
>>>From: "Christian G. Warden" <xndbmail@xerus.org>
>>>To: dbmail@dbmail.org
>>>Subject: Re: [Dbmail] dbmail-smtp and imap folders
>>>Message-ID: <20040203213059.GS18848@xerus.org>
>>>References: <200402032143.20330.nervo@nervo.net>
>
> <200402032110.i13LABO9003894@dbmail-mx4.orcon.co.nz>
>
>>>Mime-Version: 1.0
>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>>Content-Disposition: inline
>>>In-Reply-To: <200402032110.i13LABO9003894@dbmail-mx4.orcon.co.nz>
>>>User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i
>>>Sender: dbmail-admin@dbmail.org
>>>Errors-To: dbmail-admin@dbmail.org
>>>X-BeenThere: dbmail@dbmail.org
>>>X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.10
>>>Precedence: bulk
>>>Reply-To: dbmail@dbmail.org
>>>List-Help: <mailto:dbmail-request@dbmail.org?subject=help>
>>>List-Post: <mailto:dbmail@dbmail.org>
>>>List-Subscribe: <https://mailman.fastxs.nl/mailman/listinfo/dbmail>,
>>> <mailto:dbmail-request@dbmail.org?subject=subscribe>
>>>List-Id: <dbmail.dbmail.org>
>>>List-Unsubscribe: <https://mailman.fastxs.nl/mailman/listinfo/dbmail>,
>>> <mailto:dbmail-request@dbmail.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>List-Archive: <https://mailman.fastxs.nl/pipermail/dbmail/>
>>>Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 13:30:59 -0800
>>>
>>>--- end of header ---
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----- End forwarded message -----
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Dbmail-dev mailing list
>>>Dbmail-dev@dbmail.org
>>>http://twister.fastxs.net/mailman/listinfo/dbmail-dev
>>
>>--
>>IC&S
>>Stadhouderslaan 57
>>3583 JD Utrecht
>>
>>PGP-key:
>>http://www.ic-s.nl/keys/ilja.txt
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Dbmail-dev mailing list
>>Dbmail-dev@dbmail.org
>>http://twister.fastxs.net/mailman/listinfo/dbmail-dev
>>
>
>
>
>

--
IC&S
Stadhouderslaan 57
3583 JD Utrecht

PGP-key:
http://www.ic-s.nl/keys/ilja.txt

Re: bounces [ In reply to ]

xndbmail at xerus

Feb 4, 2004, 9:09 AM

Post #5 of 14 (2726 views)

On Wed, Feb 04, 2004 at 01:15:48PM -0000, Aaron Stone wrote:
> Based on my reading, I think that DBMail should not generate bounces at all.
> Rather, appropriate temporary-failure and permanent-failure return codes
> should come from dbmail-smtp and DSN codes from dbmail-lmtpd, along with
> additional descriptive text in both cases, and the MTA will do the rest.

I agree that the MTA should handle undeliverable messages. The only
problem arises when dbmail-smtp is passed multiple recipients and only
some are undeliverable, or, if after alias expansion, some recipients are
undeliverable.

> If this is the case, I can remove the bounce call from pipe.c right now; I'm
> working on refining the delivery chain to produce appropriate error codes for
> various failure conditions. Making sure to emit bounce codes for situations
> which would have called the bounce() function won't be too hard.

Re: bounces [ In reply to ]

Feb 4, 2004, 9:34 AM

Post #6 of 14 (2716 views)

I know that LMTP defines a method for handling multiple recipients. I don't
think that the pipe delivery interface does, and in fact I think it
specifically is for one recipient only... unless we're parsing headers, in
which case we might have a few recipients.

I'm inclined to say that any delivery error to an expansion is a delivery
error for the original target address; at the very least, this ensures that
everyone will get a fair attempt at the delivery. An annoyance might be
multiple copies to those who recieved it in the first place and are receiving
it again in the redelivery attempt hours / days later.

Aaron

"Christian G. Warden" <xndbmail@xerus.org> said:

> On Wed, Feb 04, 2004 at 01:15:48PM -0000, Aaron Stone wrote:
> > Based on my reading, I think that DBMail should not generate bounces at all.
> > Rather, appropriate temporary-failure and permanent-failure return codes
> > should come from dbmail-smtp and DSN codes from dbmail-lmtpd, along with
> > additional descriptive text in both cases, and the MTA will do the rest.
>
> I agree that the MTA should handle undeliverable messages. The only
> problem arises when dbmail-smtp is passed multiple recipients and only
> some are undeliverable, or, if after alias expansion, some recipients are
> undeliverable.
>
> > If this is the case, I can remove the bounce call from pipe.c right now;
> > I'm working on refining the delivery chain to produce appropriate error
> > codes for various failure conditions. Making sure to emit bounce codes
> > for situations which would have called the bounce() function won't be
> > too hard.
> _______________________________________________
> Dbmail-dev mailing list
> Dbmail-dev@dbmail.org
> http://twister.fastxs.net/mailman/listinfo/dbmail-dev
>

--

Re: bounces [ In reply to ]

Feb 4, 2004, 9:39 AM

Post #7 of 14 (2709 views)

I don't think we can let the MTA do the forwards because we don't have a way
of communicating "forward this message to so and so..." to the MTA. We
definitely can't let the MTA be fully in charge because we want the forward
configuration to be in the database and not in some text file or something.

I'm sure that the various database user map patches to Postgres could help
handle this, but it puts a pretty stringent requirement onto the MTA.

I'm going to keep the forwards in there for now and remove the bounces. If we
can figure out a good way to pass forwards back to the MTA let's go for it!

Aaron

Ilja Booij <ilja@ic-s.nl> said:

> Hi,
>
> Seems like a good idea to me. Let the MTA do what the MTA does best, and
> let DBMail store the emails. Along the same lines: Can't we use the MTA
> sending forwards and domain forwards in the same manner?
>
> Ilja
>
>
> Aaron Stone wrote:
>
> > Based on my reading, I think that DBMail should not generate bounces at all.
> > Rather, appropriate temporary-failure and permanent-failure return codes
> > should come from dbmail-smtp and DSN codes from dbmail-lmtpd, along with
> > additional descriptive text in both cases, and the MTA will do the rest.
> >
> > If this is the case, I can remove the bounce call from pipe.c right now; I'm
> > working on refining the delivery chain to produce appropriate error codes for
> > various failure conditions. Making sure to emit bounce codes for situations
> > which would have called the bounce() function won't be too hard.
> >
> > Aaron
> >
> >
> > Ilja Booij <ilja@ic-s.nl> said:
> >
> >
> >>dbmail currently uses the Return-Path header. If it cannot find such a
> >>header, it uses the From header.
> >>
> >>What would you suggest we do: search for the Sender and/or Errors-To
> >>header and use that as a return address? Does this always work?
> >>
> >>thanks,
> >>Ilja
> >>
> >>Christian G. Warden wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before, but dbmail doesn't
> >>>seem to generate bounces correctly. I don't generate bounces within
> >>>dbmail so I've never noticed this.
> >>>
> >>>Here is a bounce I got from a dbmail user in response to a message sent
> >>>to the dbmail list.
> >>>It does a few things wrong. The envelope sender is not <> as it should
> >>>be, and the message is sent to the address in the From header rather
> >>>than the envelope sender.
> >>>How does dbmail determine the sender of a message that a bounce must be
> >>>sent to? It doesn't look like the MTA of the user in question adds a
> >>>header with the envelope sender, but Errors-To and Sender would be
> >>>better choices than From.
> >>>
> >>>xn
> >>>
> >>>----- Forwarded message from dbmail-bounce@netel.bg -----
> >>>
> >>>Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:32:23 +0200 (EET)
> >>>From: dbmail-bounce@netel.bg
> >>>To: xndbmail@xerus.org
> >>>Subject: DBMAIL: delivery failure
> >>>
> >>>This is the DBMAIL-SMTP program.
> >>>
> >>>I'm sorry to inform you that your message, addressed to naso,
> >>>could not be delivered due to the following error.
> >>>
> >>>*** Mailbox of user naso is FULL ***
> >>>
> >>>If you think this message is incorrect please contact postmaster@netel.bg.
> >>>
> >>>Header of your message follows...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>--- header of your message ---
> >>>Received: from twister.fastxs.net (unknown [213.214.98.20])
> >>> by mail.netel.bg (Postfix) with ESMTP
> >>> id C69575C004FF; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:32:16 +0200 (EET)
> >>>Received: from twister.fastxs.net (localhost [127.0.0.1])
> >>> by twister.fastxs.net (Postfix) with ESMTP
> >>> id 2E7E37BE71; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:32:02 +0100 (CET)
> >>>Received: from cayenne.xerus.org (adsl-66-51-218-170.dslextreme.com
> >
> > [66.51.218.170])
> >
> >>> by twister.fastxs.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C58A87B46F
> >>> for <dbmail@dbmail.org>; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:30:59 +0100 (CET)
> >>>Received: from safron ([192.168.1.5] helo=safron.xerus.org)
> >>> by cayenne.xerus.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30 #1 (Debian))
> >>> id 1Ao886-0007C2-3t
> >>> for <dbmail@dbmail.org>; Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:30:46 -0800
> >>>Received: from cwarden by safron.xerus.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian))
> >>> id 1Ao88J-00071c-00
> >>> for <dbmail@dbmail.org>; Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:30:59 -0800
> >>>From: "Christian G. Warden" <xndbmail@xerus.org>
> >>>To: dbmail@dbmail.org
> >>>Subject: Re: [Dbmail] dbmail-smtp and imap folders
> >>>Message-ID: <20040203213059.GS18848@xerus.org>
> >>>References: <200402032143.20330.nervo@nervo.net>
> >
> > <200402032110.i13LABO9003894@dbmail-mx4.orcon.co.nz>
> >
> >>>Mime-Version: 1.0
> >>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >>>Content-Disposition: inline
> >>>In-Reply-To: <200402032110.i13LABO9003894@dbmail-mx4.orcon.co.nz>
> >>>User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i
> >>>Sender: dbmail-admin@dbmail.org
> >>>Errors-To: dbmail-admin@dbmail.org
> >>>X-BeenThere: dbmail@dbmail.org
> >>>X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.10
> >>>Precedence: bulk
> >>>Reply-To: dbmail@dbmail.org
> >>>List-Help: <mailto:dbmail-request@dbmail.org?subject=help>
> >>>List-Post: <mailto:dbmail@dbmail.org>
> >>>List-Subscribe: <https://mailman.fastxs.nl/mailman/listinfo/dbmail>,
> >>> <mailto:dbmail-request@dbmail.org?subject=subscribe>
> >>>List-Id: <dbmail.dbmail.org>
> >>>List-Unsubscribe: <https://mailman.fastxs.nl/mailman/listinfo/dbmail>,
> >>> <mailto:dbmail-request@dbmail.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>List-Archive: <https://mailman.fastxs.nl/pipermail/dbmail/>
> >>>Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 13:30:59 -0800
> >>>
> >>>--- end of header ---
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>----- End forwarded message -----
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>Dbmail-dev mailing list
> >>>Dbmail-dev@dbmail.org
> >>>http://twister.fastxs.net/mailman/listinfo/dbmail-dev
> >>
> >>--
> >>IC&S
> >>Stadhouderslaan 57
> >>3583 JD Utrecht
> >>
> >>PGP-key:
> >>http://www.ic-s.nl/keys/ilja.txt
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Dbmail-dev mailing list
> >>Dbmail-dev@dbmail.org
> >>http://twister.fastxs.net/mailman/listinfo/dbmail-dev
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> IC&S
> Stadhouderslaan 57
> 3583 JD Utrecht
>
> PGP-key:
> http://www.ic-s.nl/keys/ilja.txt
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dbmail-dev mailing list
> Dbmail-dev@dbmail.org
> http://twister.fastxs.net/mailman/listinfo/dbmail-dev
>

--

Re: bounces [ In reply to ]

Feb 4, 2004, 9:46 AM

Post #8 of 14 (2726 views)

Ok, well I read the rest of the thread on forwards, and everyone there
advocates for Postfix to fully handle forwards by using the ??sql patches.

Unfortunately, I think this places a pretty steep requirement onto the MTA to
a) have this capability or b) have the right patches applied and anyways, that
c) it is configured to use the dbmail database, too.

There's gotta be a sane way for DBMail to send its own forwards properly...

Aaron

"Aaron Stone" <aaron@serendipity.palo-alto.ca.us> said:

> I don't think we can let the MTA do the forwards because we don't have a way
> of communicating "forward this message to so and so..." to the MTA. We
> definitely can't let the MTA be fully in charge because we want the forward
> configuration to be in the database and not in some text file or something.
>
> I'm sure that the various database user map patches to Postfix could help
> handle this, but it puts a pretty stringent requirement onto the MTA.
>
> I'm going to keep the forwards in there for now and remove the bounces. If
> we can figure out a good way to pass forwards back to the MTA let's go for
> it!
>
> Aaron
>
>
> Ilja Booij <ilja@ic-s.nl> said:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Seems like a good idea to me. Let the MTA do what the MTA does best, and
> > let DBMail store the emails. Along the same lines: Can't we use the MTA
> > sending forwards and domain forwards in the same manner?
> >
> > Ilja
> >
> >
> > Aaron Stone wrote:
> >
> > > Based on my reading, I think that DBMail should not generate bounces at all.
> > > Rather, appropriate temporary-failure and permanent-failure return codes
> > > should come from dbmail-smtp and DSN codes from dbmail-lmtpd, along with
> > > additional descriptive text in both cases, and the MTA will do the rest.
> > >
> > > If this is the case, I can remove the bounce call from pipe.c right now; I'm
> > > working on refining the delivery chain to produce appropriate error
codes for
> > > various failure conditions. Making sure to emit bounce codes for situations
> > > which would have called the bounce() function won't be too hard.
> > >
> > > Aaron
> > >
> > >
> > > Ilja Booij <ilja@ic-s.nl> said:
> > >
> > >
> > >>dbmail currently uses the Return-Path header. If it cannot find such a
> > >>header, it uses the From header.
> > >>
> > >>What would you suggest we do: search for the Sender and/or Errors-To
> > >>header and use that as a return address? Does this always work?
> > >>
> > >>thanks,
> > >>Ilja
> > >>
> > >>Christian G. Warden wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before, but dbmail doesn't
> > >>>seem to generate bounces correctly. I don't generate bounces within
> > >>>dbmail so I've never noticed this.
> > >>>
> > >>>Here is a bounce I got from a dbmail user in response to a message sent
> > >>>to the dbmail list.
> > >>>It does a few things wrong. The envelope sender is not <> as it should
> > >>>be, and the message is sent to the address in the From header rather
> > >>>than the envelope sender.
> > >>>How does dbmail determine the sender of a message that a bounce must be
> > >>>sent to? It doesn't look like the MTA of the user in question adds a
> > >>>header with the envelope sender, but Errors-To and Sender would be
> > >>>better choices than From.
> > >>>
> > >>>xn
> > >>>
> > >>>----- Forwarded message from dbmail-bounce@netel.bg -----
> > >>>
> > >>>Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:32:23 +0200 (EET)
> > >>>From: dbmail-bounce@netel.bg
> > >>>To: xndbmail@xerus.org
> > >>>Subject: DBMAIL: delivery failure
> > >>>
> > >>>This is the DBMAIL-SMTP program.
> > >>>
> > >>>I'm sorry to inform you that your message, addressed to naso,
> > >>>could not be delivered due to the following error.
> > >>>
> > >>>*** Mailbox of user naso is FULL ***
> > >>>
> > >>>If you think this message is incorrect please contact postmaster@netel.bg.
> > >>>
> > >>>Header of your message follows...
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>--- header of your message ---
> > >>>Received: from twister.fastxs.net (unknown [213.214.98.20])
> > >>> by mail.netel.bg (Postfix) with ESMTP
> > >>> id C69575C004FF; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:32:16 +0200 (EET)
> > >>>Received: from twister.fastxs.net (localhost [127.0.0.1])
> > >>> by twister.fastxs.net (Postfix) with ESMTP
> > >>> id 2E7E37BE71; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:32:02 +0100 (CET)
> > >>>Received: from cayenne.xerus.org (adsl-66-51-218-170.dslextreme.com
> > >
> > > [66.51.218.170])
> > >
> > >>> by twister.fastxs.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C58A87B46F
> > >>> for <dbmail@dbmail.org>; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:30:59 +0100 (CET)
> > >>>Received: from safron ([192.168.1.5] helo=safron.xerus.org)
> > >>> by cayenne.xerus.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30 #1 (Debian))
> > >>> id 1Ao886-0007C2-3t
> > >>> for <dbmail@dbmail.org>; Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:30:46 -0800
> > >>>Received: from cwarden by safron.xerus.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1
(Debian))
> > >>> id 1Ao88J-00071c-00
> > >>> for <dbmail@dbmail.org>; Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:30:59 -0800
> > >>>From: "Christian G. Warden" <xndbmail@xerus.org>
> > >>>To: dbmail@dbmail.org
> > >>>Subject: Re: [Dbmail] dbmail-smtp and imap folders
> > >>>Message-ID: <20040203213059.GS18848@xerus.org>
> > >>>References: <200402032143.20330.nervo@nervo.net>
> > >
> > > <200402032110.i13LABO9003894@dbmail-mx4.orcon.co.nz>
> > >
> > >>>Mime-Version: 1.0
> > >>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > >>>Content-Disposition: inline
> > >>>In-Reply-To: <200402032110.i13LABO9003894@dbmail-mx4.orcon.co.nz>
> > >>>User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i
> > >>>Sender: dbmail-admin@dbmail.org
> > >>>Errors-To: dbmail-admin@dbmail.org
> > >>>X-BeenThere: dbmail@dbmail.org
> > >>>X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.10
> > >>>Precedence: bulk
> > >>>Reply-To: dbmail@dbmail.org
> > >>>List-Help: <mailto:dbmail-request@dbmail.org?subject=help>
> > >>>List-Post: <mailto:dbmail@dbmail.org>
> > >>>List-Subscribe: <https://mailman.fastxs.nl/mailman/listinfo/dbmail>,
> > >>> <mailto:dbmail-request@dbmail.org?subject=subscribe>
> > >>>List-Id: <dbmail.dbmail.org>
> > >>>List-Unsubscribe: <https://mailman.fastxs.nl/mailman/listinfo/dbmail>,
> > >>> <mailto:dbmail-request@dbmail.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >>>List-Archive: <https://mailman.fastxs.nl/pipermail/dbmail/>
> > >>>Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 13:30:59 -0800
> > >>>
> > >>>--- end of header ---
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>----- End forwarded message -----
> > >>>_______________________________________________
> > >>>Dbmail-dev mailing list
> > >>>Dbmail-dev@dbmail.org
> > >>>http://twister.fastxs.net/mailman/listinfo/dbmail-dev
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>IC&S
> > >>Stadhouderslaan 57
> > >>3583 JD Utrecht
> > >>
> > >>PGP-key:
> > >>http://www.ic-s.nl/keys/ilja.txt
> > >>
> > >>_______________________________________________
> > >>Dbmail-dev mailing list
> > >>Dbmail-dev@dbmail.org
> > >>http://twister.fastxs.net/mailman/listinfo/dbmail-dev
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > IC&S
> > Stadhouderslaan 57
> > 3583 JD Utrecht
> >
> > PGP-key:
> > http://www.ic-s.nl/keys/ilja.txt
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Dbmail-dev mailing list
> > Dbmail-dev@dbmail.org
> > http://twister.fastxs.net/mailman/listinfo/dbmail-dev
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dbmail-dev mailing list
> Dbmail-dev@dbmail.org
> http://twister.fastxs.net/mailman/listinfo/dbmail-dev
>

--

Re: bounces [ In reply to ]

brian at macserve

Feb 4, 2004, 10:03 AM

Post #9 of 14 (2724 views)

On 2/4/2004 10:46 AM, "Aaron Stone" <aaron@serendipity.palo-alto.ca.us>
wrote:

> Ok, well I read the rest of the thread on forwards, and everyone there
> advocates for Postfix to fully handle forwards by using the ??sql patches.
>
> Unfortunately, I think this places a pretty steep requirement onto the MTA to
> a) have this capability or b) have the right patches applied and anyways, that
> c) it is configured to use the dbmail database, too.
>
> There's gotta be a sane way for DBMail to send its own forwards properly...
>

As I stated about a month ago, the way to "fix" the bounces of mail that has
reached dmail-smtp is add a FROM address parameter to the call syntax.
Postfix can send along the sender address in the master.cf pipe line for
dbmail-smtp

sendmail handles this with a -fuser@fromaddr.com type parameter.

Add this in and many of these issues will clean themselves up very quickly.

Until this is added, we are letting Postfix handles all forwards and bounces
using additional fields in our aliases and users tables.

Brian

Re: bounces [ In reply to ]

Feb 4, 2004, 11:09 AM

Post #10 of 14 (2722 views)

So I think the way to go about doing this is to rewrite the argument handling
in main.c to use getopt() so that adding another flag doesn't involve major
spaghetti code. Other than that, should be a piece of cake to add the from
address to the return_path list that is already passed to insert_message().

I'd love to do this but I barely have enough time for the pipe.c updates.

Aaron

Brian Blood <brian@macserve.net> said:

> On 2/4/2004 10:46 AM, "Aaron Stone" <aaron@serendipity.palo-alto.ca.us>
> wrote:
>
> > Ok, well I read the rest of the thread on forwards, and everyone there
> > advocates for Postfix to fully handle forwards by using the ??sql patches.
> >
> > Unfortunately, I think this places a pretty steep requirement onto the MTA
> > to a) have this capability or b) have the right patches applied and
> > anyways, that c) it is configured to use the dbmail database, too.
> >
> > There's gotta be a sane way for DBMail to send its own forwards
> > properly...
> >
>
> As I stated about a month ago, the way to "fix" the bounces of mail that has
> reached dmail-smtp is add a FROM address parameter to the call syntax.
> Postfix can send along the sender address in the master.cf pipe line for
> dbmail-smtp
>
> sendmail handles this with a -fuser@fromaddr.com type parameter.
>
> Add this in and many of these issues will clean themselves up very quickly.
>
> Until this is added, we are letting Postfix handles all forwards and bounces
> using additional fields in our aliases and users tables.
>
>
>
> Brian
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dbmail-dev mailing list
> Dbmail-dev@dbmail.org
> http://twister.fastxs.net/mailman/listinfo/dbmail-dev
>

--

RE: bounces [ In reply to ]

mark at orcon

Feb 4, 2004, 11:38 AM

Post #11 of 14 (2717 views)

> So I think the way to go about doing this is to rewrite the
> argument handling
> in main.c to use getopt() so that adding another flag doesn't
> involve major
> spaghetti code. Other than that, should be a piece of cake to
> add the from
> address to the return_path list that is already passed to
> insert_message().

>
> I'd love to do this but I barely have enough time for the
> pipe.c updates.

I assume changing to getopt() would allow command line options from
dbmail-smtp to be in any order, and alleviate the confusion it causes (like
the -m MAILBOX issue recently on the list).

If can't be done now -- a good thing to add to the wishlist for later
versions.

/Mark

Re: bounces [ In reply to ]

Feb 4, 2004, 3:28 PM

Post #12 of 14 (2721 views)

Hi,

Aaron Stone wrote:

> I don't think we can let the MTA do the forwards because we don't have a way
> of communicating "forward this message to so and so..." to the MTA. We
> definitely can't let the MTA be fully in charge because we want the forward
> configuration to be in the database and not in some text file or something.
I completely agree with that. The aliases table should be in the database.
>
> I'm sure that the various database user map patches to Postgres could help
> handle this, but it puts a pretty stringent requirement onto the MTA.
>
> I'm going to keep the forwards in there for now and remove the bounces. If we
> can figure out a good way to pass forwards back to the MTA let's go for it!
I guess it would be better to keep things in DBMail 2.0 as they are
(possibly correcting bounce behaviour), and do these major changes in
the next release.

Ilja

>
> Aaron
>
>
> Ilja Booij <ilja@ic-s.nl> said:
>
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Seems like a good idea to me. Let the MTA do what the MTA does best, and
>>let DBMail store the emails. Along the same lines: Can't we use the MTA
>>sending forwards and domain forwards in the same manner?
>>
>>Ilja
>>
>>
>>Aaron Stone wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Based on my reading, I think that DBMail should not generate bounces at all.
>>>Rather, appropriate temporary-failure and permanent-failure return codes
>>>should come from dbmail-smtp and DSN codes from dbmail-lmtpd, along with
>>>additional descriptive text in both cases, and the MTA will do the rest.
>>>
>>>If this is the case, I can remove the bounce call from pipe.c right now; I'm
>>>working on refining the delivery chain to produce appropriate error codes for
>>>various failure conditions. Making sure to emit bounce codes for situations
>>>which would have called the bounce() function won't be too hard.
>>>
>>>Aaron
>>>
>>>
>>>Ilja Booij <ilja@ic-s.nl> said:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>dbmail currently uses the Return-Path header. If it cannot find such a
>>>>header, it uses the From header.
>>>>
>>>>What would you suggest we do: search for the Sender and/or Errors-To
>>>>header and use that as a return address? Does this always work?
>>>>
>>>>thanks,
>>>>Ilja
>>>>
>>>>Christian G. Warden wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before, but dbmail doesn't
>>>>>seem to generate bounces correctly. I don't generate bounces within
>>>>>dbmail so I've never noticed this.
>>>>>
>>>>>Here is a bounce I got from a dbmail user in response to a message sent
>>>>>to the dbmail list.
>>>>>It does a few things wrong. The envelope sender is not <> as it should
>>>>>be, and the message is sent to the address in the From header rather
>>>>>than the envelope sender.
>>>>>How does dbmail determine the sender of a message that a bounce must be
>>>>>sent to? It doesn't look like the MTA of the user in question adds a
>>>>>header with the envelope sender, but Errors-To and Sender would be
>>>>>better choices than From.
>>>>>
>>>>>xn
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Forwarded message from dbmail-bounce@netel.bg -----
>>>>>
>>>>>Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:32:23 +0200 (EET)
>>>>>From: dbmail-bounce@netel.bg
>>>>>To: xndbmail@xerus.org
>>>>>Subject: DBMAIL: delivery failure
>>>>>
>>>>>This is the DBMAIL-SMTP program.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm sorry to inform you that your message, addressed to naso,
>>>>>could not be delivered due to the following error.
>>>>>
>>>>>*** Mailbox of user naso is FULL ***
>>>>>
>>>>>If you think this message is incorrect please contact postmaster@netel.bg.
>>>>>
>>>>>Header of your message follows...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--- header of your message ---
>>>>>Received: from twister.fastxs.net (unknown [213.214.98.20])
>>>>> by mail.netel.bg (Postfix) with ESMTP
>>>>> id C69575C004FF; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:32:16 +0200 (EET)
>>>>>Received: from twister.fastxs.net (localhost [127.0.0.1])
>>>>> by twister.fastxs.net (Postfix) with ESMTP
>>>>> id 2E7E37BE71; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:32:02 +0100 (CET)
>>>>>Received: from cayenne.xerus.org (adsl-66-51-218-170.dslextreme.com
>>>
>>>[66.51.218.170])
>>>
>>>
>>>>> by twister.fastxs.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C58A87B46F
>>>>> for <dbmail@dbmail.org>; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:30:59 +0100 (CET)
>>>>>Received: from safron ([192.168.1.5] helo=safron.xerus.org)
>>>>> by cayenne.xerus.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30 #1 (Debian))
>>>>> id 1Ao886-0007C2-3t
>>>>> for <dbmail@dbmail.org>; Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:30:46 -0800
>>>>>Received: from cwarden by safron.xerus.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian))
>>>>> id 1Ao88J-00071c-00
>>>>> for <dbmail@dbmail.org>; Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:30:59 -0800
>>>>>From: "Christian G. Warden" <xndbmail@xerus.org>
>>>>>To: dbmail@dbmail.org
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Dbmail] dbmail-smtp and imap folders
>>>>>Message-ID: <20040203213059.GS18848@xerus.org>
>>>>>References: <200402032143.20330.nervo@nervo.net>
>>>
>>><200402032110.i13LABO9003894@dbmail-mx4.orcon.co.nz>
>>>
>>>>>Mime-Version: 1.0
>>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>>>>Content-Disposition: inline
>>>>>In-Reply-To: <200402032110.i13LABO9003894@dbmail-mx4.orcon.co.nz>
>>>>>User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i
>>>>>Sender: dbmail-admin@dbmail.org
>>>>>Errors-To: dbmail-admin@dbmail.org
>>>>>X-BeenThere: dbmail@dbmail.org
>>>>>X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.10
>>>>>Precedence: bulk
>>>>>Reply-To: dbmail@dbmail.org
>>>>>List-Help: <mailto:dbmail-request@dbmail.org?subject=help>
>>>>>List-Post: <mailto:dbmail@dbmail.org>
>>>>>List-Subscribe: <https://mailman.fastxs.nl/mailman/listinfo/dbmail>,
>>>>> <mailto:dbmail-request@dbmail.org?subject=subscribe>
>>>>>List-Id: <dbmail.dbmail.org>
>>>>>List-Unsubscribe: <https://mailman.fastxs.nl/mailman/listinfo/dbmail>,
>>>>> <mailto:dbmail-request@dbmail.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>List-Archive: <https://mailman.fastxs.nl/pipermail/dbmail/>
>>>>>Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 13:30:59 -0800
>>>>>
>>>>>--- end of header ---
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>----- End forwarded message -----
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Dbmail-dev mailing list
>>>>>Dbmail-dev@dbmail.org
>>>>>http://twister.fastxs.net/mailman/listinfo/dbmail-dev
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>IC&S
>>>>Stadhouderslaan 57
>>>>3583 JD Utrecht
>>>>
>>>>PGP-key:
>>>>http://www.ic-s.nl/keys/ilja.txt
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Dbmail-dev mailing list
>>>>Dbmail-dev@dbmail.org
>>>>http://twister.fastxs.net/mailman/listinfo/dbmail-dev
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>--
>>IC&S
>>Stadhouderslaan 57
>>3583 JD Utrecht
>>
>>PGP-key:
>>http://www.ic-s.nl/keys/ilja.txt
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Dbmail-dev mailing list
>>Dbmail-dev@dbmail.org
>>http://twister.fastxs.net/mailman/listinfo/dbmail-dev
>>
>
>
>
>

--
IC&S
Stadhouderslaan 57
3583 JD Utrecht

PGP-key:
http://www.ic-s.nl/keys/ilja.txt

Re: bounces [ In reply to ]

Feb 4, 2004, 3:38 PM

Post #13 of 14 (2724 views)

I've put this into the TODO list for future releases. It should not take
to long to change to using getopt(), so we could probably put in dbmail 2.1

Ilja

Mark Mackay - Orcon wrote:

>>So I think the way to go about doing this is to rewrite the
>>argument handling
>>in main.c to use getopt() so that adding another flag doesn't
>>involve major
>>spaghetti code. Other than that, should be a piece of cake to
>>add the from
>>address to the return_path list that is already passed to
>>insert_message().
>
>
>>I'd love to do this but I barely have enough time for the
>>pipe.c updates.
>
>
> I assume changing to getopt() would allow command line options from
> dbmail-smtp to be in any order, and alleviate the confusion it causes (like
> the -m MAILBOX issue recently on the list).
>
> If can't be done now -- a good thing to add to the wishlist for later
> versions.
>
> /Mark
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dbmail-dev mailing list
> Dbmail-dev@dbmail.org
> http://twister.fastxs.net/mailman/listinfo/dbmail-dev

--
IC&S
Stadhouderslaan 57
3583 JD Utrecht

PGP-key:
http://www.ic-s.nl/keys/ilja.txt

Re: bounces [ In reply to ]

Feb 4, 2004, 5:30 PM

Post #14 of 14 (2722 views)