Mailing List Archive

Thats because we are a dying bread. Every young whipper snapper thinks
that ssh or telnet is good enough. They don't realize that problems can
occur before the tcp/ip stack is operational. They also don't realize
how much it sucks to drive into downtown Atlanta at 4pm on a Friday to
attach to the serial console of a Cisco switch because it has issues.
Parking sucks too. I made that trip once and that was it!



On Fri, 2005-11-18 at 12:47 -0800, Zonker Harris wrote:
> Unfortunately, pre-registration for my
> remote console access service tutorial at
> LISA this year was too low, and the session
> has been withdrawn.
>
> If anyone on the list was planning to
> attend, please get in touch with me off-list.
> I have a couple questions for you. :-)
>
> Sorry for the broadcast to everyone else...
>
> -Z- http://www.conserver.com/consoles/
>
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> users@conserver.com
> https://www.conserver.com/mailman/listinfo/users

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Christopher Fowler wrote:
> Thats because we are a dying bread. Every young whipper snapper thinks
> that ssh or telnet is good enough. They don't realize that problems can
> occur before the tcp/ip stack is operational. They also don't realize
> how much it sucks to drive into downtown Atlanta at 4pm on a Friday to
> attach to the serial console of a Cisco switch because it has issues.
> Parking sucks too. I made that trip once and that was it!

Hey - I beg to differ - age has nothing to do with it. I setup remote
console servers at a company where the machine room was next door to my
office using conserver+cycaldes. I'm 23.

One of the first thing I do at every company I've been at is setup
console servers. Everything should be able to be done remotely and
reliably. When I get called at 4am I don't want to have to drive
anywhere - that's a pain for me, and more downtime for the company.

Age has nothing to do with it. If you don't understand how and when
technology can fail, you're a poor and/or inexperienced admin. Short and
simple. I've seen plenty of 50 year olds make that mistake.

--
Phil Dibowitz
P: 310-360-2330 C: 213-923-5115
Unix Admin, Ticketmaster.com

On Fri, 2005-11-18 at 14:25 -0800, Phil Dibowitz wrote:
> Age has nothing to do with it. If you don't understand how and when
> technology can fail, you're a poor and/or inexperienced admin. Short
> and
> simple. I've seen plenty of 50 year olds make that mistake.

I've been in this business for years and I hear excuses like "The Server
will never fail" or "Out network never goes down". Seriously do a
survey and figure out how many IT departments actually have what we call
"naked" consoles. Most of them do. If it has a console it needs to be
covered.

A year ago I installed a large company in Texas. I installed them after
their largest Cisco Switch had issues and nothing was attached to the
console port. This happens all them time.

The problem is that console management is a real project with real costs
and many companies can not see the need to spend that money especially
if they feel they'll never use it. I look at it like insurance. You
may not use it but if you need it then you'll have it. And there have
been times that I've needed to file a claim on our network. Like after
configuration ID-10-T errors.

For example. Here is an email I received from a prospect we have been
helping.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
The final migration of the <REMOVED> project was successfully completed
last Saturday, and our customers have enjoyed one week of incident-free
operations in the new data center.

In view of the need for funds to be diverted to other project issues and
the perceived low risk of any OOB management being required in the short
term, the entire OOB management solution has been abandoned, and will be
re-visited mid to late next year.

I would like to take this opportunity to join my thanks with those of
<REMOVED> for the time and effort which you have put into your proposal.
While technically sound, it is regrettable that it has been unable to
proceed at this juncture.
-----------------------------------------------------------------


Translated:
Now the funds needed to implement such a huge project is more than the
perceived risk of needing OOB during failure. (Out of Band) console
management.

Some people like me implement because we don't want failure and we need
access to the devices at the console level from anywhere. Others wait
till they get screwed a few times.





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Wow! And Phil's been on the list a few years! :-)

When I started planning my first presentation for
LISA 2000, Conserver was 10 years old, and still a
'best kept secret'. I was asking some admins why
Conserver was such a useful tool for them (how did
they find it invaluable). Many replied "How else
would you do it?" They had started out in shops
where Conserver was already deployed, and never
learned about crash carts, didn't have to wrestle
with serial settings, didn't have to walk or drive
to other sites when they wanted to check...

Since USENIX withdrew my class, the material won't
be in the proceedings, or on the CD-ROM. Therefore, I
think I'm free to use it in other arenas. I'm not sure
if I can interest SANS in it, or some other USENIX-like
entity in another region of the world. If I don't
find any opportunities that I can take, I'd likely be
willing to let the folks here get at the PDF file
sooner than the usual 1-year waiting period I've used.
(I use the "Notes Pages" format in PowerPoint, to
include most of the talking points for each slide
as part of the class handbook. You'd still be missing
the demos and interactive portions of the class...)

I started this thread to reach those that signed up
for LISA, but I'll probably share it with the group at
large, given that the discussion is generating attention.

-Z-

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Dibowitz [mailto:phil@ticketmaster.com]
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 2:26 PM
To: Christopher Fowler
Cc: Zonker Harris; users@conserver.com
Subject: Re: LISA 2005 attendees?

Christopher Fowler wrote:
> Thats because we are a dying bread. Every young whipper snapper thinks
> that ssh or telnet is good enough. They don't realize that problems can
> occur before the tcp/ip stack is operational. They also don't realize
> how much it sucks to drive into downtown Atlanta at 4pm on a Friday to
> attach to the serial console of a Cisco switch because it has issues.
> Parking sucks too. I made that trip once and that was it!

Hey - I beg to differ - age has nothing to do with it. I setup remote
console servers at a company where the machine room was next door to my
office using conserver+cycaldes. I'm 23.

One of the first thing I do at every company I've been at is setup
console servers. Everything should be able to be done remotely and
reliably. When I get called at 4am I don't want to have to drive
anywhere - that's a pain for me, and more downtime for the company.

Age has nothing to do with it. If you don't understand how and when
technology can fail, you're a poor and/or inexperienced admin. Short and
simple. I've seen plenty of 50 year olds make that mistake.

--
Phil Dibowitz
P: 310-360-2330 C: 213-923-5115
Unix Admin, Ticketmaster.com

_______________________________________________
users mailing list
users@conserver.com
https://www.conserver.com/mailman/listinfo/users

Zonker Harris wrote:
> Wow! And Phil's been on the list a few years! :-)

I started young. ;)

I actually gave a talk at LISA... erm.... 2002? "Over-Zealous Security
Administrators Are Breaking The Internet"

> Many replied "How else
> would you do it?" They had started out in shops
> where Conserver was already deployed, and never
> learned about crash carts, didn't have to wrestle
> with serial settings, didn't have to walk or drive
> to other sites when they wanted to check...

Oh, I've done both. Even with conserver crashcarts and stuff are needed.
When I worked on the 1500 node linux cluster at USC enough stuff had
problems often enough that even with IBM xSeries service processors,
BIOS console redirection, conserver, xcat, network boots for BIOS
upgrades and CMOS settings, and the whole deal we still needed a crash
cart more often than I would have liked... but WAY less often then if we
didn't have console servers.

--
Phil Dibowitz
P: 310-360-2330 C: 213-923-5115
Unix Admin, Ticketmaster.com

On Fri, 2005-11-18 at 14:38 -0800, Zonker Harris wrote:
> and never
> learned about crash carts, didn't have to wrestle
> with serial settings, didn't have to walk or drive
> to other sites when they wanted to check...
>

I worked for vars that did this so I got to see many data centers.


2 years ago I went to a data center that has aprox 10,000 Rack Saver
blades. It is a Linux cluster. Each rack had a Dell switch. That
switched served the rack. Sometimes the dell switch would go stupid. I
was there when it happened. 7 engineers was huddled around a crash cart
that had a PC for serial console access. Each one of them had to leave
their location and spend time solving these issues. Only one of them
could type and it was hard for all 7 to see the screen because it was so
crowded. Normally when this happens they telnet to the switches but
with the clusters the switches are so busy processing packets they can
no longer accept telnet connections. At that point the only access was
serial console. They might have had only a couple hundred of these
switches managing all these blades.

I could start a flame war on this list about how I feel about Dell but
if they wanted to run those critical switches headless then they should
have at least picked Cisco. This cluster processed geological data so
every second a node was down was money lost. One of the main goals of
this cluster was to find oil.


Now their competitor only had 2,000 nodes of Dell servers. Each node
was attached via console management. Each switch. Everything. They
had also written utilities to interact with all the consoles that were
in the system. Some people see the vision, some don't. Once you do you
never go back.


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On Fri, 2005-11-18 at 14:49 -0800, Phil Dibowitz wrote:
> "Over-Zealous Security
> Administrators Are Breaking The Internet"

Do you have the text :) I have to deal with people from the tin-foil
hat brigade every day.





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Zonker and list,

I work in San Diego and just woke up to the fact that LISA is going to be
here.

Does anyone on the list have any expo tickets or know where I can get some?

I would love to meet with some other Conserver "birds of a feather" and talk
for a while about what we have all been doing. I am gearing up to build
another new Conserver machine and would like to pick the group's brains.

Hopefully,

Greg Brown
CSC data center
858-573-3322 office


>From: "Zonker Harris" <Zonker.Harris@bigbandnet.com>
>To: <users@conserver.com>
>Subject: RE: LISA 2005 attendees?
>Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:38:25 -0800
>
> Wow! And Phil's been on the list a few years! :-)
>
> When I started planning my first presentation for
>LISA 2000, Conserver was 10 years old, and still a
>'best kept secret'. I was asking some admins why
>Conserver was such a useful tool for them (how did
>they find it invaluable). Many replied "How else
>would you do it?" They had started out in shops
>where Conserver was already deployed, and never
>learned about crash carts, didn't have to wrestle
>with serial settings, didn't have to walk or drive
>to other sites when they wanted to check...
>
> Since USENIX withdrew my class, the material won't
>be in the proceedings, or on the CD-ROM. Therefore, I
>think I'm free to use it in other arenas. I'm not sure
>if I can interest SANS in it, or some other USENIX-like
>entity in another region of the world. If I don't
>find any opportunities that I can take, I'd likely be
>willing to let the folks here get at the PDF file
>sooner than the usual 1-year waiting period I've used.
>(I use the "Notes Pages" format in PowerPoint, to
>include most of the talking points for each slide
>as part of the class handbook. You'd still be missing
>the demos and interactive portions of the class...)
>
> I started this thread to reach those that signed up
>for LISA, but I'll probably share it with the group at
>large, given that the discussion is generating attention.
>
> -Z-
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Phil Dibowitz [mailto:phil@ticketmaster.com]
>Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 2:26 PM
>To: Christopher Fowler
>Cc: Zonker Harris; users@conserver.com
>Subject: Re: LISA 2005 attendees?
>
>Christopher Fowler wrote:
> > Thats because we are a dying bread. Every young whipper snapper thinks
> > that ssh or telnet is good enough. They don't realize that problems can
> > occur before the tcp/ip stack is operational. They also don't realize
> > how much it sucks to drive into downtown Atlanta at 4pm on a Friday to
> > attach to the serial console of a Cisco switch because it has issues.
> > Parking sucks too. I made that trip once and that was it!
>
>Hey - I beg to differ - age has nothing to do with it. I setup remote
>console servers at a company where the machine room was next door to my
>office using conserver+cycaldes. I'm 23.
>
>One of the first thing I do at every company I've been at is setup
>console servers. Everything should be able to be done remotely and
>reliably. When I get called at 4am I don't want to have to drive
>anywhere - that's a pain for me, and more downtime for the company.
>
>Age has nothing to do with it. If you don't understand how and when
>technology can fail, you're a poor and/or inexperienced admin. Short and
>simple. I've seen plenty of 50 year olds make that mistake.
>
>--
>Phil Dibowitz
>P: 310-360-2330 C: 213-923-5115
>Unix Admin, Ticketmaster.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>users mailing list
>users@conserver.com
>https://www.conserver.com/mailman/listinfo/users


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Talk about a useful tool for servers, its also quite useful for
virtual servers! I use conserver for console access to a slew of
UML's. =]

http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/twiki/bin/view.cgi/HLUG/UsingConserverWithUserModeLinux

Russell

On Fri, Nov 18, 2005 at 02:38:25PM -0800, Zonker Harris wrote:
> Wow! And Phil's been on the list a few years! :-)
>
> When I started planning my first presentation for
> LISA 2000, Conserver was 10 years old, and still a
> 'best kept secret'. I was asking some admins why
> Conserver was such a useful tool for them (how did
> they find it invaluable). Many replied "How else
> would you do it?" They had started out in shops
> where Conserver was already deployed, and never
> learned about crash carts, didn't have to wrestle
> with serial settings, didn't have to walk or drive
> to other sites when they wanted to check...
>
> Since USENIX withdrew my class, the material won't
> be in the proceedings, or on the CD-ROM. Therefore, I
> think I'm free to use it in other arenas. I'm not sure
> if I can interest SANS in it, or some other USENIX-like
> entity in another region of the world. If I don't
> find any opportunities that I can take, I'd likely be
> willing to let the folks here get at the PDF file
> sooner than the usual 1-year waiting period I've used.
> (I use the "Notes Pages" format in PowerPoint, to
> include most of the talking points for each slide
> as part of the class handbook. You'd still be missing
> the demos and interactive portions of the class...)
>
> I started this thread to reach those that signed up
> for LISA, but I'll probably share it with the group at
> large, given that the discussion is generating attention.
>
> -Z-
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Dibowitz [mailto:phil@ticketmaster.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 2:26 PM
> To: Christopher Fowler
> Cc: Zonker Harris; users@conserver.com
> Subject: Re: LISA 2005 attendees?
>
> Christopher Fowler wrote:
> > Thats because we are a dying bread. Every young whipper snapper thinks
> > that ssh or telnet is good enough. They don't realize that problems can
> > occur before the tcp/ip stack is operational. They also don't realize
> > how much it sucks to drive into downtown Atlanta at 4pm on a Friday to
> > attach to the serial console of a Cisco switch because it has issues.
> > Parking sucks too. I made that trip once and that was it!
>
> Hey - I beg to differ - age has nothing to do with it. I setup remote
> console servers at a company where the machine room was next door to my
> office using conserver+cycaldes. I'm 23.
>
> One of the first thing I do at every company I've been at is setup
> console servers. Everything should be able to be done remotely and
> reliably. When I get called at 4am I don't want to have to drive
> anywhere - that's a pain for me, and more downtime for the company.
>
> Age has nothing to do with it. If you don't understand how and when
> technology can fail, you're a poor and/or inexperienced admin. Short and
> simple. I've seen plenty of 50 year olds make that mistake.
>
> --
> Phil Dibowitz
> P: 310-360-2330 C: 213-923-5115
> Unix Admin, Ticketmaster.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> users@conserver.com
> https://www.conserver.com/mailman/listinfo/users
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
users@conserver.com
https://www.conserver.com/mailman/listinfo/users

Well, I'm probably a "young whippersnapper", but I really like conserver
and we still use it extensively. I didn't sign up for the class since I
have our infrastructure up and running. Our biggest change, though, is
that our newest machines are now using Sun's ALOM hardware, which doesn't
really work with conserver. But as long as we have legacy systems, we'll
have conserver around.

Zonker - at the very least, we should have a Conserver BoF. That could
be a place to at least give some information about conserver to people who
had planned to take your class, and allow the folks already running it to
share their experiences and ideas.


Brian

On Fri, Nov 18, 2005 at 05:15:59PM -0500, Christopher Fowler wrote:
> Thats because we are a dying bread. Every young whipper snapper thinks
> that ssh or telnet is good enough. They don't realize that problems can
> occur before the tcp/ip stack is operational. They also don't realize
> how much it sucks to drive into downtown Atlanta at 4pm on a Friday to
> attach to the serial console of a Cisco switch because it has issues.
> Parking sucks too. I made that trip once and that was it!
>
>
>
> On Fri, 2005-11-18 at 12:47 -0800, Zonker Harris wrote:
> > Unfortunately, pre-registration for my
> > remote console access service tutorial at
> > LISA this year was too low, and the session
> > has been withdrawn.
> >
> > If anyone on the list was planning to
> > attend, please get in touch with me off-list.
> > I have a couple questions for you. :-)
> >
> > Sorry for the broadcast to everyone else...
> >
> > -Z- http://www.conserver.com/consoles/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > users mailing list
> > users@conserver.com
> > https://www.conserver.com/mailman/listinfo/users
>
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> users@conserver.com
> https://www.conserver.com/mailman/listinfo/users

--
Brian Sebby (sebby@anl.gov) | Unix and Operation Services
Phone: +1 630.252.9935 | Computing and Information Systems
Fax: +1 630.252.4601 | Argonne National Laboratory
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Brian Sebby wrote:
> Well, I'm probably a "young whippersnapper", but I really like conserver
> and we still use it extensively. I didn't sign up for the class since I
> have our infrastructure up and running. Our biggest change, though, is
> that our newest machines are now using Sun's ALOM hardware, which doesn't
> really work with conserver. But as long as we have legacy systems, we'll
> have conserver around.

Why not?

--
Phil Dibowitz
P: 310-360-2330 C: 213-923-5115
Unix Admin, Ticketmaster.com

Christopher Fowler wrote:
> On Fri, 2005-11-18 at 14:49 -0800, Phil Dibowitz wrote:
>
>>"Over-Zealous Security
>>Administrators Are Breaking The Internet"
>
>
> Do you have the text :) I have to deal with people from the tin-foil
> hat brigade every day.

Sure. http://www.phildev.net/mss/

--
Phil Dibowitz
P: 310-360-2330 C: 213-923-5115
Unix Admin, Ticketmaster.com
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
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https://www.conserver.com/mailman/listinfo/users

I wonder if its anything like IBM's new POWER5 systems. They use an
ethernet connection now for management versus serial console, though
serial console may still be an option on standalone nonLPARed systems.

Russell

On Fri, Nov 18, 2005 at 05:38:42PM -0600, Phil Dibowitz wrote:
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> users@conserver.com
> https://www.conserver.com/mailman/listinfo/users
>

> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 17:40:54 -0600
> Subject:
>
>

> Brian Sebby wrote:
> > Well, I'm probably a "young whippersnapper", but I really like conserver
> > and we still use it extensively. I didn't sign up for the class since I
> > have our infrastructure up and running. Our biggest change, though, is
> > that our newest machines are now using Sun's ALOM hardware, which doesn't
> > really work with conserver. But as long as we have legacy systems, we'll
> > have conserver around.
>
> Why not?
>
> --
> Phil Dibowitz
> P: 310-360-2330 C: 213-923-5115
> Unix Admin, Ticketmaster.com


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>>>>> "Phil" == Phil Dibowitz <phil@ticketmaster.com> writes:

Phil> Brian Sebby wrote:
>> Well, I'm probably a "young whippersnapper", but I really like conserver
>> and we still use it extensively. I didn't sign up for the class since I
>> have our infrastructure up and running. Our biggest change, though, is
>> that our newest machines are now using Sun's ALOM hardware, which doesn't
>> really work with conserver. But as long as we have legacy systems, we'll
>> have conserver around.

Phil> Why not?

The big thing I've run into on the Sun V210 boxes is that you can't
send a <break> anymore from conserver. You need to break into the
ALOM, then send the break. I sent an email a few weeks ago about it,
but got deafening silence in reply.

John
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On Mon, 2005-11-21 at 10:40, John Stoffel wrote:
> The big thing I've run into on the Sun V210 boxes is that you can't
> send a <break> anymore from conserver. You need to break into the
> ALOM, then send the break. I sent an email a few weeks ago about it,
> but got deafening silence in reply.

I must have missed it.

Are you using the serial port or are you using the ALOM as a one-port
terminal server?

We're using the latter. The original ALOM firmware didn't pass through
a telnet break as a console break, but there's a newer version of the
ALOM firmware available which will pass through a telnet BREAK.

- Bill





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Bill> Are you using the serial port or are you using the ALOM as a
Bill> one-port terminal server?

I'm using the ALOM port at the hookin from my Avocent CPS16, which is
controlled by conserver. I just get:

[halt sent]

BREAK Requested - Access Denied

When I try to send a break. I need to do '#.' to get to the sc>
prompt where I can do a 'break -y' and the 'console' to get back to
the PROM level, etc.

Bill> We're using the latter. The original ALOM firmware didn't pass
Bill> through a telnet break as a console break, but there's a newer
Bill> version of the ALOM firmware available which will pass through a
Bill> telnet BREAK.

Cool. Do you know which firmware this is?

sc> showsc
Advanced Lights Out Manager v1.5.1

Does this make sense?

John






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Greetings,
The Hardware Management Console (HMC) from IBM uses Ethernet on the Power5 but on the Power4 machines used a serial connection... AND the network connection for some activities. Dynamic LPAR doesn't work on Power4 without a network connection between the HMC and the LPAR.
Unfortunately if you are partitioning then you need to use the HMC so you don't have a serial console. The Power4 HMC disabled the serial console as well, and you were in the same boat. At least the HMC provides the ability for multiple users to use different consoles simultaneously.
Adam


-----Original Message-----
From: users-bounces@conserver.com [mailto:users-bounces@conserver.com]On
Behalf Of Adams, Russell L.
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 11:45 AM
To: users@conserver.com
Subject: Re: LISA 2005 attendees?


I wonder if its anything like IBM's new POWER5 systems. They use an
ethernet connection now for management versus serial console, though
serial console may still be an option on standalone nonLPARed systems.

Russell

On Fri, Nov 18, 2005 at 05:38:42PM -0600, Phil Dibowitz wrote:
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> users@conserver.com
> https://www.conserver.com/mailman/listinfo/users
>

> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 17:40:54 -0600
> Subject:
>
>

> Brian Sebby wrote:
> > Well, I'm probably a "young whippersnapper", but I really like conserver
> > and we still use it extensively. I didn't sign up for the class since I
> > have our infrastructure up and running. Our biggest change, though, is
> > that our newest machines are now using Sun's ALOM hardware, which doesn't
> > really work with conserver. But as long as we have legacy systems, we'll
> > have conserver around.
>
> Why not?
>
> --
> Phil Dibowitz
> P: 310-360-2330 C: 213-923-5115
> Unix Admin, Ticketmaster.com


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Actually, if I recall correctly there was a portion of IBM's HMC
software that uses conserver. ;]

Russell

On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 09:10:36AM -0800, Morris, Adam wrote:
> Greetings,
> The Hardware Management Console (HMC) from IBM uses Ethernet on the Power5 but on the Power4 machines used a serial connection... AND the network connection for some activities. Dynamic LPAR doesn't work on Power4 without a network connection between the HMC and the LPAR.
> Unfortunately if you are partitioning then you need to use the HMC so you don't have a serial console. The Power4 HMC disabled the serial console as well, and you were in the same boat. At least the HMC provides the ability for multiple users to use different consoles simultaneously.
> Adam
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: users-bounces@conserver.com [mailto:users-bounces@conserver.com]On
> Behalf Of Adams, Russell L.
> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 11:45 AM
> To: users@conserver.com
> Subject: Re: LISA 2005 attendees?
>
>
> I wonder if its anything like IBM's new POWER5 systems. They use an
> ethernet connection now for management versus serial console, though
> serial console may still be an option on standalone nonLPARed systems.
>
> Russell
>
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2005 at 05:38:42PM -0600, Phil Dibowitz wrote:
> > _______________________________________________
> > users mailing list
> > users@conserver.com
> > https://www.conserver.com/mailman/listinfo/users
> >
>
> > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 17:40:54 -0600
> > Subject:
> >
> >
>
> > Brian Sebby wrote:
> > > Well, I'm probably a "young whippersnapper", but I really like conserver
> > > and we still use it extensively. I didn't sign up for the class since I
> > > have our infrastructure up and running. Our biggest change, though, is
> > > that our newest machines are now using Sun's ALOM hardware, which doesn't
> > > really work with conserver. But as long as we have legacy systems, we'll
> > > have conserver around.
> >
> > Why not?
> >
> > --
> > Phil Dibowitz
> > P: 310-360-2330 C: 213-923-5115
> > Unix Admin, Ticketmaster.com
>
>
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