Mailing List Archive

Hiya,

I doubt Bricolage will make it back into ubuntu or debian as a package. The
reason for this is threefold

1) You want to try out Bricolage and see what it's like, in which case just
download the Bricolage Ubuntu VM [*] and you're up and running in a
separate environment without impacting your existing installations.

2) You're installing Bricolage into a production environment in which case
you're more than likely going to want to install it in multimode into
specific directories of your choice due to size of media perhaps or your
dev team has built for a specific version and you don't want it changing.

Installing Bricolage on Debian or Ubuntu is very simple :

http://wiki.github.com/bricoleurs/bricolage/installation-tips

3) You're doing development and wanting to do lots of bespoke things which
will involve multiple installations, blowing things away and re-doing them,
in which case you might not be able to install into /usr/local/bricolage or
you want everything in one handy place without permissions problems. In
which case you can either install it yourself or run it as a VM.

There is another minor reason, which is that I don't have the time to work
out a bunch of debian packages and I seem to be the person who keeps the
Debian support up to date, not that I have a problem with that. I guess I
also feel that since the VM or full install routes are very simple that
adding package management isn't worth it

Hope this helps, :-)

regards,

Paul

[*] Admittedly these are a bit out of date, I'll try and get them updated soon

[**] Nor the VMs [*]


Phillip Smith wrote:
> Thoughts on the below? (Send to the-oc@bricolage.cc).
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> In the announcement of Bricolage 1.11.1 it said, "We hope to release 2.0
>> by the end of the year..." That was in October 2008.
>>
>> I appreciate that things do not always go to plan but I wondered whether
>> we could have an update on this, since I am sure that many, like myself,
>> are waiting for the day when Bricolage will find its way back into
>> Debian and Ubuntu, and that day will not be in sight until Bricolage 2
>> emerges.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Stephen Forster
>
> --
> Phillip Smith // Simplifier of Technology // COMMUNITY BANDWIDTH
> www.communitybandwidth.ca // www.phillipadsmith.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Paul Orrock Digital Craftsmen
Lead SysAdmin www.digitalcraftsmen.net
Exmouth House, 3 Pine Street, London, EC1R 0JH
Tel: 020 7183 1410 Fax: 020 7099 5140

On Apr 30, 2009, at 9:41 AM, Paul Orrock wrote:

> 1) You want to try out Bricolage and see what it's like, in which
> case just download the Bricolage Ubuntu VM [*] and you're up and
> running in a separate environment without impacting your existing
> installations.

Some folks don't do this.

> 2) You're installing Bricolage into a production environment in
> which case you're more than likely going to want to install it in
> multimode into specific directories of your choice due to size of
> media perhaps or your dev team has built for a specific version and
> you don't want it changing.

Why can't the Debian package use multimode locations?

> Installing Bricolage on Debian or Ubuntu is very simple :
>
> http://wiki.github.com/bricoleurs/bricolage/installation-tips

Yeah, Phillip said it was dead easy. Very glad about that.

> 3) You're doing development and wanting to do lots of bespoke things
> which will involve multiple installations, blowing things away and
> re-doing them, in which case you might not be able to install into /
> usr/local/bricolage or
> you want everything in one handy place without permissions problems.
> In which case you can either install it yourself or run it as a VM.

If you're doing development, you should use the Git repository and
`make dev`.

> There is another minor reason, which is that I don't have the time
> to work out a bunch of debian packages and I seem to be the person
> who keeps the Debian support up to date, not that I have a problem
> with that. I guess I also feel that since the VM or full install
> routes are very simple that adding package management isn't worth it

Some Debian folks, as you know, won't install software that has
no .deb. So we automatically lose those folks if there is no package.

Best,

David

Hi,

David E. Wheeler wrote:
> On Apr 30, 2009, at 9:41 AM, Paul Orrock wrote:
>> 1) You want to try out Bricolage and see what it's like, in which case
>> just download the Bricolage Ubuntu VM [*] and you're up and running in
>> a separate environment without impacting your existing installations.
>
> Some folks don't do this.

Some folks think IIS on Windows is a proper webserver, more fool them :-)

> Why can't the Debian package use multimode locations?

Ah but then that would not be the Debian way my young padawan, the force
that is Debian.org dictates that locations should be set at the start for
easy installation. Allowing the user to specify directories is not the
preferred way and allows for chaos within order.

>> Installing Bricolage on Debian or Ubuntu is very simple :
>> http://wiki.github.com/bricoleurs/bricolage/installation-tips
>
> Yeah, Phillip said it was dead easy. Very glad about that.

I do try and keep those docs up to date,

>> 3) You're doing development and wanting to do lots of bespoke things
>> In which case you can either install it yourself or run it as a VM.
>
> If you're doing development, you should use the Git repository and `make
> dev`.

Absolutely but that's if you're doing bricolage changes, I meant template
developers working with a released version. Also that's just going to get
you a bricolage tarball not everything else you need to run it.

> Some Debian folks, as you know, won't install software that has no .deb.
> So we automatically lose those folks if there is no package.

We also lose folks who want to use IIS on Windows but at least most debian
people will accept that there is another way :-)

Plus the only bit not in a .deb is bricolage itself and 3 cpan modules, and
experience with bricolage shows that one should have complete control over
what version one runs, rather than having some package manager change it
underneath you :-)

regards,

Paul

--
Paul Orrock, VCP Digital Craftsmen
Lead SysAdmin www.digitalcraftsmen.net
Exmouth House, 3 Pine Street, London, EC1R 0JH
Tel: 020 7183 1410 Fax: 020 7099 5140

On Apr 30, 2009, at 10:03 AM, Paul Orrock wrote:

>> Why can't the Debian package use multimode locations?
>
> Ah but then that would not be the Debian way my young padawan, the
> force that is Debian.org dictates that locations should be set at
> the start for easy installation. Allowing the user to specify
> directories is not the preferred way and allows for chaos within
> order.

Oh yeah. Another reason to hate Debian. “We know better than the
developers of the software.” Whatever.

>> If you're doing development, you should use the Git repository and
>> `make dev`.
>
> Absolutely but that's if you're doing bricolage changes, I meant
> template developers working with a released version. Also that's
> just going to get you a bricolage tarball not everything else you
> need to run it.

That vast majority of template development, AFAIK, is on production
systems. Does anyone really use bric_dev_sync?

>> Some Debian folks, as you know, won't install software that has
>> no .deb. So we automatically lose those folks if there is no package.
>
> We also lose folks who want to use IIS on Windows but at least most
> debian people will accept that there is another way :-)

Maybe. So are you volunteering to write a Windows installer, too? ;-P

> Plus the only bit not in a .deb is bricolage itself and 3 cpan
> modules, and experience with bricolage shows that one should have
> complete control over what version one runs, rather than having some
> package manager change it underneath you :-)

I agree with you, but I hate package managers so I'm biased. Can you
convince someone who *loves* their package manager?

Best,

David

David E. Wheeler wrote:
> On Apr 30, 2009, at 10:03 AM, Paul Orrock wrote:
> That vast majority of template development, AFAIK, is on production
> systems. Does anyone really use bric_dev_sync?

Our testing and initial dev is done on a dev install, which allows us to
fix bugs etc . We then make a clone and install it on the production
servers. Having a VM image also allows for very easy testing of changes.
bric_dev_sync has always seemed like voodoo so I've avoided it.

>> We also lose folks who want to use IIS on Windows but at least most
>> debian people will accept that there is another way :-)
>
> Maybe. So are you volunteering to write a Windows installer, too? ;-P

My windows installer would install vmware player and then get the Debian
Bricolage VM running on that :-)

> I agree with you, but I hate package managers so I'm biased. Can you
> convince someone who *loves* their package manager?

I convinced myself and I really love apt on debian. It's only ever let me
down once in 6 years of sysadmin of over 100 boxes. If you're running
fairly standard production systems and you don't have dev's who want the
latest, greatest version of something just because it was released
yesterday then package management on Debian or Ubuntu 8.04 LTS is very hard
to beat for stability and ease of adding / removing software.

regards,

P.


--
Paul Orrock Digital Craftsmen
Lead SysAdmin www.digitalcraftsmen.net
Exmouth House, 3 Pine Street, London, EC1R 0JH
Tel: 020 7183 1410 Fax: 020 7099 5140

On May 1, 2009, at 1:55 AM, Paul Orrock wrote:

> Our testing and initial dev is done on a dev install, which allows
> us to fix bugs etc . We then make a clone and install it on the
> production servers. Having a VM image also allows for very easy
> testing of changes. bric_dev_sync has always seemed like voodoo so
> I've avoided it.

Sure, but that's the same as just working with a production install.
The only difference is that you run it on a different box, first, and
then clone it. But how do you handle a site redesign?

>> Maybe. So are you volunteering to write a Windows installer, too? ;-P
>
> My windows installer would install vmware player and then get the
> Debian Bricolage VM running on that :-)

LOL! Sold!

>> I agree with you, but I hate package managers so I'm biased. Can
>> you convince someone who *loves* their package manager?
>
> I convinced myself and I really love apt on debian. It's only ever
> let me down once in 6 years of sysadmin of over 100 boxes. If you're
> running fairly standard production systems and you don't have dev's
> who want the latest, greatest version of something just because it
> was released yesterday then package management on Debian or Ubuntu
> 8.04 LTS is very hard to beat for stability and ease of adding /
> removing software.

It's also hard to beat it over the head when a new version of software
has a bug fix you need and they won't upgrade it for stability
reasons. It might show up on backcompat eventually, but always months
after you want it.

I detest these systems.

Best,

David