Mailing List Archive

LICENSE mark III
As I said, I like the point-by-point clarification. What I didn't like
was the notion of assigning copyright to all contributors individually
rather than to an umbrella organization (real or imaginary). I don't
care whether or not it can be defended in court -- we couldn't defend
it even if it was legal to do so. What matters *most*, in both civil society
and in US Law, is that the *intention* of the copyright owners is clear.

If we as a group agree to call ourselves "the Apache Group", and we then
agree to assign copyright to "the Apache Group" (and require that
copyright be assigned to future patches), then our *intentions* are
perfectly clear and that does hold considerable weight in US Law
(and even more, as I recall, in UK Law). Lawyers (solicitors) will
indeed advise us to have a stronger protection, but that is because
their job is to *guarantee* our property rights. Since we don't need
the guarantee, we don't need a lawyer.

Nevertheless, I'll send a copy of the final license to my sister
(an Assistant Attorney General for the State of Washington) so that
she can pick holes in it. Unfortunately, the AG's office is still in
the dark ages, so it'll have to be by snail mail.

......Roy

Here is what I would suggest as a replacement license:

/* ====================================================================
* Copyright (c) 1995 The Apache Group. All rights reserved.
*
* Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
* modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
* are met:
*
* 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
* notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
*
* 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
* notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in
* the documentation and/or other materials provided with the
* distribution.
*
* 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this
* software must display the following acknowledgment:
* "This product includes software developed by the Apache Group
* for use in the Apache HTTP server project (http://www.apache.org/)."
*
* 4. The names "Apache Server" and "Apache Group" must not be used to
* endorse or promote products derived from this software without
* prior written permission.
*
* 5. Redistributions of any form whatsoever must retain the following
* acknowledgment:
* "This product includes software developed by the Apache Group
* for use in the Apache HTTP server project (http://www.apache.org/)."
*
* THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE APACHE GROUP ``AS IS'' AND ANY
* EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE
* IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR
* PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE APACHE GROUP OR
* ITS CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL,
* SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT
* NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES;
* LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION)
* HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT,
* STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE)
* ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED
* OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
* ====================================================================
*
* This software consists of voluntary contributions made by many
* individuals on behalf of the Apache Group. A complete list of
* contributors is given in the CREDITS file included with the source
* code distribution. For more information on the Apache Group and
* the Apache HTTP server project, please see <http://www.apache.org/>.
*
*/
Re: LICENSE mark III [ In reply to ]
> As I said, I like the point-by-point clarification. What I didn't like
> was the notion of assigning copyright to all contributors individually
> rather than to an umbrella organization (real or imaginary). I don't
> care whether or not it can be defended in court -- we couldn't defend
> it even if it was legal to do so. What matters *most*, in both civil society
> and in US Law, is that the *intention* of the copyright owners is clear.
>
> If we as a group agree to call ourselves "the Apache Group", and we then
> agree to assign copyright to "the Apache Group" (and require that
> copyright be assigned to future patches), then our *intentions* are
> perfectly clear and that does hold considerable weight in US Law
> (and even more, as I recall, in UK Law). Lawyers (solicitors) will
> indeed advise us to have a stronger protection, but that is because
> their job is to *guarantee* our property rights. Since we don't need
> the guarantee, we don't need a lawyer.
>
> Nevertheless, I'll send a copy of the final license to my sister
> (an Assistant Attorney General for the State of Washington) so that
> she can pick holes in it. Unfortunately, the AG's office is still in
> the dark ages, so it'll have to be by snail mail.
>
> ......Roy

I am in complete agreement with Roy's position here. I would like
to call a vote on the following license. I would like to close
the vote on this license in 48 hours. Any problem with this?

The license has my +1, and I assume Roy's.




> Here is what I would suggest as a replacement license:
>
> /* ====================================================================
> * Copyright (c) 1995 The Apache Group. All rights reserved.
> *
> * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
> * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
> * are met:
> *
> * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
> * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
> *
> * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
> * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in
> * the documentation and/or other materials provided with the
> * distribution.
> *
> * 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this
> * software must display the following acknowledgment:
> * "This product includes software developed by the Apache Group
> * for use in the Apache HTTP server project (http://www.apache.org/)."
> *
> * 4. The names "Apache Server" and "Apache Group" must not be used to
> * endorse or promote products derived from this software without
> * prior written permission.
> *
> * 5. Redistributions of any form whatsoever must retain the following
> * acknowledgment:
> * "This product includes software developed by the Apache Group
> * for use in the Apache HTTP server project (http://www.apache.org/)."
> *
> * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE APACHE GROUP ``AS IS'' AND ANY
> * EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE
> * IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR
> * PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE APACHE GROUP OR
> * ITS CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL,
> * SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT
> * NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES;
> * LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION)
> * HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT,
> * STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE)
> * ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED
> * OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
> * ====================================================================
> *
> * This software consists of voluntary contributions made by many
> * individuals on behalf of the Apache Group. A complete list of
> * contributors is given in the CREDITS file included with the source
> * code distribution. For more information on the Apache Group and
> * the Apache HTTP server project, please see <http://www.apache.org/>.
> *
> */
Re: LICENSE mark III [ In reply to ]
+1 on changing latest licence

Mark
Mark J Cox, mark@telescope.org -- URL:http://www.telescope.org/mark.html
University of Bradford, England ---------- tel +44.1274.384070/fax 391333
Re: LICENSE mark III [ In reply to ]
We have already decided that a CREDITS file of the form that Andrew
proposes is unacceptable --- the last time we had this debate, it was
put forward and lost. It doesn't look any better to me this time around.
-1.

If there is a CREDITS file with the distribution, it should be a copy of
the contributors list on hyperreal. There is no need for multiple versions.

rst
Re: LICENSE mark III [ In reply to ]
I'd like to request a small change:

> > *
> > * This software consists of voluntary contributions made by many
> > * individuals on behalf of the Apache Group. A complete list of

Changed to :

This software consists of voluntary contributions made by many
individuals on behalf of the Apache Group and was orginally based
on NCSA HTTPd 1.3.



--
Elizabeth(Beth) Frank
NCSA Server Development Team
efrank@ncsa.uiuc.edu
Re: LICENSE mark III [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Beth Frank wrote:

> I'd like to request a small change:
>
> > > *
> > > * This software consists of voluntary contributions made by many
> > > * individuals on behalf of the Apache Group. A complete list of
>
> Changed to :
>
> This software consists of voluntary contributions made by many
> individuals on behalf of the Apache Group and was orginally based
> on NCSA HTTPd 1.3.

I think this is valuable, but I'd prefer:

* This software consists of voluntary contributions made by many
* individuals on behalf of the Apache Group and was orginally based
* on public domain software written at the National Center for
* Supercomputing Applications, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign.

dave
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
| David Oliver dave@newshare.com |
| Managing Director-Technology Newshare Corporation |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
Re: LICENSE mark III [ In reply to ]
>
> On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Beth Frank wrote:
>
> > I'd like to request a small change:
> >
> > > > *
> > > > * This software consists of voluntary contributions made by many
> > > > * individuals on behalf of the Apache Group. A complete list of
> >
> > Changed to :
> >
> > This software consists of voluntary contributions made by many
> > individuals on behalf of the Apache Group and was orginally based
> > on NCSA HTTPd 1.3.
>
> I think this is valuable, but I'd prefer:
>
> * This software consists of voluntary contributions made by many
> * individuals on behalf of the Apache Group and was orginally based
> * on public domain software written at the National Center for
> * Supercomputing Applications, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign.
>
> dave
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | David Oliver dave@newshare.com |
> | Managing Director-Technology Newshare Corporation |
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
>

That's fine with me.


--
Elizabeth(Beth) Frank
NCSA Server Development Team
efrank@ncsa.uiuc.edu
Re: LICENSE mark III [ In reply to ]
> I am in complete agreement with Roy's position here. I would like
> to call a vote on the following license. I would like to close
> the vote on this license in 48 hours. Any problem with this?

Yes, impatience is not a virtue.

> The license has my +1, and I assume Roy's.

I know the licence is near useless in extreme situations but I realise
my concerns are obviated by our inability to persue any legal recourse
should the need arise. I also use big words where small words are more
suitable.

I'm +1 on this enclosed version of the LICENCE, and quite prepared to +1
any and all improvement that may come about from consultation with
more qualified legal minds in the future.

As for the CREDITS file. Alphabetical order, nothing other than the name.
We already have a trophy cabinet back on apache.org, stick your "I dun this,
I dun that" comments in there please.

> > Here is what I would suggest as a replacement license:
> >
> > /* ====================================================================
> > * Copyright (c) 1995 The Apache Group. All rights reserved.
> > *
> > * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
> > * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
> > * are met:
> > *
> > * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
> > * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
> > *
> > * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
> > * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in
> > * the documentation and/or other materials provided with the
> > * distribution.
> > *
> > * 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this
> > * software must display the following acknowledgment:
> > * "This product includes software developed by the Apache Group
> > * for use in the Apache HTTP server project (http://www.apache.org/)."
> > *
> > * 4. The names "Apache Server" and "Apache Group" must not be used to
> > * endorse or promote products derived from this software without
> > * prior written permission.
> > *
> > * 5. Redistributions of any form whatsoever must retain the following
> > * acknowledgment:
> > * "This product includes software developed by the Apache Group
> > * for use in the Apache HTTP server project (http://www.apache.org/)."
> > *
> > * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE APACHE GROUP ``AS IS'' AND ANY
> > * EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE
> > * IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR
> > * PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE APACHE GROUP OR
> > * ITS CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL,
> > * SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT
> > * NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES;
> > * LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION)
> > * HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT,
> > * STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE)
> > * ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED
> > * OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
> > * ====================================================================
> > *
> > * This software consists of voluntary contributions made by many
> > * individuals on behalf of the Apache Group. A complete list of
> > * contributors is given in the CREDITS file included with the source
> > * code distribution. For more information on the Apache Group and
> > * the Apache HTTP server project, please see <http://www.apache.org/>.
> > *
> > */
>
>
>
>
Re: LICENSE mark III [ In reply to ]
Sorry, my mention of a CREDITS file was where I intended to move
the proper attribution for Rob McCool and NCSA's work. If it isn't
there already, it should at least be put in the README file.

> * This software consists of voluntary contributions made by many
> * individuals on behalf of the Apache Group and was orginally based
> * on public domain software written at the National Center for
> * Supercomputing Applications, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign.

That's okay on most files, but then someone will have to remember to
remove it from the non-NCSA based files.

+1 anyway

....Roy
Re: LICENSE mark III [ In reply to ]
As the author of most of the files which contain *no* NCSA code, I'm
happy enough to leave the "based on..." attribution as is. As I've
said before, our server, as a whole, *is* based on their server, as a
whole, and I have no problems with saying so. (It does not commit us
to anything, legally or otherwise --- it's just a matter of being
polite).

rst
Re: LICENSE mark III [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Roy Fielding wrote:

> > * This software consists of voluntary contributions made by many
> > * individuals on behalf of the Apache Group and was orginally based
> > * on public domain software written at the National Center for
> > * Supercomputing Applications, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign.
>
> That's okay on most files, but then someone will have to remember to
> remove it from the non-NCSA based files.

This would be a pain, yes?

So replace "was originally based" with "is partially based".
It seems to me that it is the "spirit of the attribution" that
is important, so this wording means that not every file
contained in the distribution {is,is not} attributable to
NCSA, but the entire work is.

This minutea (sp?) is delightful.

dave
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
| David Oliver dave@newshare.com |
| Managing Director-Technology Newshare Corporation |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
Re: LICENSE mark III [ In reply to ]
> We have already decided that a CREDITS file of the form that Andrew
> proposes is unacceptable --- the last time we had this debate, it was
> put forward and lost. It doesn't look any better to me this time around.
> -1.

Understood. My reference to CREDITS was based solely on it's mention in
Roy F's licence template (his suggestion, not mine). I'd prefer fuller
accreditation, if it exists at all, to exist on the web-site rather than
in some white-noise file we bundle with the distribution.

> If there is a CREDITS file with the distribution, it should be a copy of
> the contributors list on hyperreal. There is no need for multiple versions.
>
> rst

Roy F? Wanna propose another licence (IV) without a mention of a specific
CREDITS file? I guess we can keep references to the website.

Could the last paragraph be reworded:

* This software consists of voluntary contributions made by many
* individuals on behalf of the Apache Group. For more information on
* the Apache Group and the Apache HTTP server project, please see
* <http://www.apache.org/>.

Ay (chanting the mantra: It itsn't legal, it doesn't mean anything,
don't take it too seriously...)