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Eric Gorr wrote:

> Since Analog 6.0 is the last version, I was wondering if people had
> any opinion on what the next 'best' analyzer is or will be?
>

I find it difficult to believe that no-one has picked up where Stephen
left off - are there no developers on this list? I did some work (XML
output) on analog myself about three years ago, but right now I just
haven't got the time to get involved.

There isn't really much of a learning curve - the package is just the
source code and a Makefile. There's no SVN or autoconf to make things
complicated :-)

Even if an updated version couldn't be published at www.analog.cx,
someone could still create a fork and publish that.



/Per Jessen, Zürich

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On Friday, August 31, 2007 6:49 AM [EDT],
Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:

> Eric Gorr wrote:
>
>> Since Analog 6.0 is the last version, I was wondering if people had
>> any opinion on what the next 'best' analyzer is or will be?
>>
>
> I find it difficult to believe that no-one has picked up where Stephen
> left off - are there no developers on this list? I did some work (XML
> output) on analog myself about three years ago, but right now I just
> haven't got the time to get involved.
>
> There isn't really much of a learning curve - the package is just the
> source code and a Makefile. There's no SVN or autoconf to make things
> complicated :-)
>
> Even if an updated version couldn't be published at www.analog.cx,
> someone could still create a fork and publish that.

Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do you start with a fork, or do
you start with unmet needs? Most forks occur because someone needs an
application to do something that it currently can't do. Analog has been user
modified to meet minor needs, but the occasional calls for functionality
that isn't in Analog (path tracking, or exit page reporting) aren't things
that would necessarily fall out of the processing that Analog already does.

Aengus

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Aengus wrote:

> Analog has been user modified to meet minor needs,

User-modifications are the first signs of a beginning fork. Why not a
6.01 release instead?
Has anyone collected these user-mods into a combined patch?

> but the occasional calls for functionality that isn't in Analog (path
> tracking, or exit page reporting) aren't things that would necessarily
> fall out of the processing that Analog already does.

How about reporting on compression ratios, browser language settings and
perhaps ssl settings?
Maybe introducing autoconf into the build? (I think I did some work on
that already).
Improved default config with common browsers and robots preconfigured.

(personally I also think the config syntax and semantics could do with
an "upgrade").

A fork is not necessary, but as Stephen never did invite other
maintainers/developers, it seems to be only way forward.


/Per Jessen, Zürich
PS: another key issue is that analogs popularity will decline the
more "mature" (read: stale) analog becomes. New users tend not to opt
for software that has not been maintained for over 3 years.

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Per Jessen wrote:
>
> I find it difficult to believe that no-one has picked up where Stephen
> left off - are there no developers on this list? I did some work (XML
> output) on analog myself about three years ago, but right now I just
> haven't got the time to get involved.

Web server log analysis is a fairly mature field at this point. AWStats,
<http://www.awstats.org/>, another popular open source log analyzer, has
had more recent development effort than Analog. But even they are
running out of features to add and have dramatically slowed their
development efforts.

The same is true of the commercial products. There hasn't been much
innovation since ClickTracks came out several years ago. These days
changes are mostly limited to making sure that the occasional new web
browser has their agent string properly parsed.

Jason

--
Jason@Summary.Net
--
Dr. Seuss books . . . can be read and enjoyed on several levels. For
example, 'One Fish Two Fish, Red Fish Blue Fish' can be deconstructed
as a searing indictment of the narrow-minded binary counting system.
-- Peter van der Linden, Expert C Programming, Deep C Secrets
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Per Jessen wrote:

> User-modifications are the first signs of a beginning fork. Why not a
> 6.01 release instead?
> Has anyone collected these user-mods into a combined patch?

Found one:

http://iddl.vt.edu/~jackie/analog/analog-6.01beta1.patch


/Per Jessen, Zürich

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Jason Linhart wrote:

> These days
> changes are mostly limited to making sure that the occasional new web
> browser has their agent string properly parsed.

Yes, very true - but even something as minor as that warrants a
maintenance release, IMHO.



/Per Jessen, Zürich

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Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
> Per Jessen wrote:
>
>> User-modifications are the first signs of a beginning fork. Why not a
>> 6.01 release instead?
>> Has anyone collected these user-mods into a combined patch?
>
> Found one:
>
> http://iddl.vt.edu/~jackie/analog/analog-6.01beta1.patch


http://www.mail-archive.com/analog-help@lists.meer.net/msg03230.html

Aengus


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Hi All,

Just to say, the last time HTML had a significant update was in 1999.

Not much decline in popularity there so far as I can tell!

Paul

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Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
> Aengus wrote:
>
>> Analog has been user modified to meet minor needs,
>
> User-modifications are the first signs of a beginning fork. Why not a
> 6.01 release instead?
> Has anyone collected these user-mods into a combined patch?

One of the core concepts behind Analog is it's cross platform
funxtionality. Most of the user modifications that I recall coming up on
this list are platform specific tweaks - to be honest, there haven't
been many of them. The only other cross-platform modification that I
recall is the one to add Windows Vista to the list of recognizes Windows
variants. You already found a copy, and I've pointed to the list
archives where I documented the process for Windows users to compile the
change for themselves.

>> but the occasional calls for functionality that isn't in Analog (path
>> tracking, or exit page reporting) aren't things that would
>> necessarily fall out of the processing that Analog already does.
>
> How about reporting on compression ratios, browser language settings
> and perhaps ssl settings?
> Maybe introducing autoconf into the build? (I think I did some work on
> that already).
> Improved default config with common browsers and robots preconfigured.
>
> (personally I also think the config syntax and semantics could do with
> an "upgrade").

There are a couple of syntactic quirks that, with hindsight, might be
usefully reworked, but I'm not sure that the benefits of making
"FILEINCLUDE robots" work the same way as "FILEINCLUDE pages" is enough
to provide the momentum for a fork.

> A fork is not necessary, but as Stephen never did invite other
> maintainers/developers, it seems to be only way forward.

I don't think Stephen was exactly beating down requests to join the
development team! Analog is a pretty mature application, and most of the
people with the skills to help focussed on "helper apps", that enhance
the functionality of Analog, without modifying Analog itself (Report
Magic is probably the biggest, though the various DNS resolver tools are
the other obvious area where potential functionality within Analog was
sacrificed to maintain the maximum cross-platform compatibility. The
very structure of Analog makes helper apps a good method to add
functionality, without modifying Analog.

This was Stephens response to why he didn't release an "official" patch
to include Vista:
http://lists.meer.net/pipermail/analog-help/2006-November/020028.html

I certainly have no objection to a fork - I doubt that Stephen has. I'm
just not sure that there's sufficient demand for a fork to maintain the
necessary momentum.

Aengus


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Hi,

The great thing about Analog is that like HTML it’s mature. This means in
other words that it works…

Analog benefits from an excellent support network, has no install to mess up
your computer, plus it’s free.

I haven’t found any application with sufficient benefits to warrant switching
over and I’ve tried several.

So long as Vista is in there it's fine. Just IMHO that’s all…

Paul


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Per Jessen wrote:
...
> Maybe introducing autoconf into the build?

Please don't: applications that use libtool tend to only build on "GNU's
Not Unix". Besides, if the code is written in $language -- as opposed to
GNU$language, most of autoconf's checks are unnecessary cruft. Perhaps
if someone rewrites analog in gunk (aka gnuc) it'll need an automagical
check if c compiler can create excutables and isn't missing stdio.h. But
as it stands now, it ain't broken to begin with.

Dima
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Dimitri Maziuk wrote:

> Per Jessen wrote:
> ...
>> Maybe introducing autoconf into the build?
>
> Please don't: applications that use libtool tend to only build on
> "GNU's Not Unix". Besides, if the code is written in $language -- as
> opposed to GNU$language, most of autoconf's checks are unnecessary
> cruft. Perhaps if someone rewrites analog in gunk (aka gnuc) it'll
> need an automagical check if c compiler can create excutables and
> isn't missing stdio.h. But as it stands now, it ain't broken to begin
> with.

Alright, then perhaps not autoconf itself, but the general "edit the
header file" configuration method is a little dated, so some kind of
assisted config tool would come in handy.



/Per Jessen, Zürich

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At 09:55 a -0400 08/31/2007, Jason Linhart didst inscribe upon an
electronic papyrus:

>Per Jessen wrote:
>>
>>I find it difficult to believe that no-one has picked up where Stephen
>>left off - are there no developers on this list? I did some work (XML
>>output) on analog myself about three years ago, but right now I just
>>haven't got the time to get involved.
>
>Web server log analysis is a fairly mature field at this point.
>AWStats, <http://www.awstats.org/>, another popular open source log
>analyzer, has had more recent development effort than Analog. But
>even they are running out of features to add and have dramatically
>slowed their development efforts.

I wonder how much of their development is just patching security holes....
(I had installed AWStats for a user, and then found that it got used
to install a spam sender on my server. :/ )

>The same is true of the commercial products. There hasn't been much
>innovation since ClickTracks came out several years ago.

What's that?

>These days changes are mostly limited to making sure that the
>occasional new web browser has their agent string properly parsed.

Hmm... anyone seen iPhone's Safari show up in Analog yet?

As far as Analog development goes, I'd sure like to see the form
output's HTML raised from HTML 2.0 to 4.0, to use CSS formatting on
the report.


-W
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Aengus wrote:

>> (personally I also think the config syntax and semantics could do
>> with an "upgrade").
>
> There are a couple of syntactic quirks that, with hindsight, might be
> usefully reworked, but I'm not sure that the benefits of making
> "FILEINCLUDE robots" work the same way as "FILEINCLUDE pages" is
> enough to provide the momentum for a fork.

I think the entire runtime config is quirky to say the least. Certainly
when compared to the tools we otherwise work with - apache, mysql,
syslog-ng, logrotate, rsync etc. Just fixing a couple of minor
oddities isn't really worth looking at, I agree.

>> A fork is not necessary, but as Stephen never did invite other
>> maintainers/developers, it seems to be only way forward.
>
> I don't think Stephen was exactly beating down requests to join the
> development team!

He wasn't inviting any either. An obvious first step would have been to
use the sourceforge project that was set up, but I don't think he ever
did. (apart from the front page).

> The very structure of Analog makes helper apps a good
> method to add functionality, without modifying Analog.

It's a slightly different discussion, but sometimes it's nicer to have
just one tool instead five or six that you need to cobble together with
a bit of scripting etc.

> This was Stephens response to why he didn't release an "official"
> patch to include Vista:
> http://lists.meer.net/pipermail/analog-help/2006-November/020028.html

Perfectly reasonable, but had he for instance already had others on the
project to help support some of these platforms, it would have been
much easier to do a new release.

> I certainly have no objection to a fork - I doubt that Stephen has.
> I'm just not sure that there's sufficient demand for a fork to
> maintain the necessary momentum.

I don't think Stephen has any issue with a fork either, I'm just
surprised it hasn't happened yet. Maybe a fork will become more
attractive in an other couple of user-mods and a bit of sticky tape
here and some chewing gum there :-)


/Per Jessen, Zürich

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Paul Wade wrote:

>
> Hi All,
>
> Just to say, the last time HTML had a significant update was in 1999.
> Not much decline in popularity there so far as I can tell!

You're talking about HTML 4.01 - there's been a few new things since
then. XHTML and XML+XSL for instance. Apaches manual is published
entirely in XML.


/Per Jessen, Zürich

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Per Jessen <per@...> writes:

> You're talking about HTML 4.01 - there's been a few new things since
> then. XHTML and XML+XSL for instance. Apaches manual is published
> entirely in XML.

Yeah, I'm talking about HTML...

Not much decline in popularity as I say!

;0))




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On Friday 31 August 2007 12:18:30 Per Jessen wrote:
> Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
> > Per Jessen wrote:
> > ...
> >
> >> Maybe introducing autoconf into the build?
> >
> > Please don't: applications that use libtool tend to only build on
> > "GNU's Not Unix". Besides, if the code is written in $language -- as
> > opposed to GNU$language, most of autoconf's checks are unnecessary
> > cruft. Perhaps if someone rewrites analog in gunk (aka gnuc) it'll
> > need an automagical check if c compiler can create excutables and
> > isn't missing stdio.h. But as it stands now, it ain't broken to begin
> > with.
>
> Alright, then perhaps not autoconf itself, but the general "edit the
> header file" configuration method is a little dated, so some kind of
> assisted config tool would come in handy.

My take on it, if one can't edit the defines in Makefile/header file, then one
probably won't be able to create a usable analog config file either. Or
apache config file -- so that person probably shouldn't try to run a
webserver anyway.

As for latest and greatest [X]HTML, W3C's been criticized, laughed at, etc.
over the whole deal enough so that they finally started talking about an
upcoming new HTML (not "X") draft. That's supposed to primarily include
support for dynamic pages, which is not really relevant for analog output.
(Neither is most of HTML since 3.2, except stylesheets.)

Dima
--
Dimitri Maziuk
Programmer/sysadmin
BioMagResBank, UW-Madison -- http://www.bmrb.wisc.edu
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Walter Ian Kaye wrote:

> As far as Analog development goes, I'd sure like to see the form
> output's HTML raised from HTML 2.0 to 4.0, to use CSS formatting on
> the report.

Four years ago I did in fact work on upgrading the HTML output to 4.1,
but I then moved on the produce XHTML, and then ended up writing the
XML output module. You could produce HTML 4.01 or XHTML using a
relatively simple XSLT stylesheet.


/Per Jessen, Zürich

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Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
>
> Alright, then perhaps not autoconf itself, but the general "edit the
> header file" configuration method is a little dated, so some kind of
> assisted config tool would come in handy.

What changes have you made in your header file that would have benefited
from assisted config tool? And given that you could just put those same
changes into the analog.cfg file instead of compiling them in, why not
just write your assisted config tool to create custom analog.cfg files?

As it happens, analog already ships with just such a tool (the form
interface) and there's a number of others listed on the Helper Apps
page - http://analog.cx/helpers/index.html#conftools

Aengus


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On Fri, 31 Aug 2007, Walter Ian Kaye wrote:

> >Web server log analysis is a fairly mature field at this point.
> >AWStats, <http://www.awstats.org/>, another popular open source log
> >analyzer, has had more recent development effort than Analog. But
> >even they are running out of features to add and have dramatically
> >slowed their development efforts.
>
> I wonder how much of their development is just patching security holes....
> (I had installed AWStats for a user, and then found that it got used
> to install a spam sender on my server. :/ )

While AWStats produces pretty reports, if you take a look at its source
code (it's written in perl), you'll find that it's just gawd-awful. The
codebase of Analog (admittedly written in C, so requiring more of a
professional programmer to maintain) was relatively clean the last I
looked at it, probably back around version 4.

Point being, it wouldn't be surprising to me if AWStats was full of
holes, though just what type of security holes a log analysis tool could
expose is unclear to me.

Also, I agree with whomever stated the issue with Analog's configuration
syntax being confusing. I use analog a lot, but I were to change one
thing about it, it would be to modify the configuration syntax to be a
little more consistent and less like a 1980's DOS .bat file.

Just my 2 cents.

--
Steve Reppucci sgr@logsoft.com |
Logical Choice Software http://logsoft.com/ |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- My God! What have I done? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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Dimitri Maziuk wrote:

>>
>> Alright, then perhaps not autoconf itself, but the general "edit the
>> header file" configuration method is a little dated, so some kind of
>> assisted config tool would come in handy.
>
> My take on it, if one can't edit the defines in Makefile/header file,
> then one probably won't be able to create a usable analog config file
> either. Or apache config file -- so that person probably shouldn't try
> to run a webserver anyway.

autoconf is used by 99.9% of the software I use. That alone seems to be
a strong indication of its distinct advantages over hand-editing a pile
of header files.

If it was up to me, analog-7.0 would be autoconf'ed.



/Per Jessen, Zürich

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Per Jessen wrote:

> Walter Ian Kaye wrote:
>
>> As far as Analog development goes, I'd sure like to see the form
>> output's HTML raised from HTML 2.0 to 4.0, to use CSS formatting on
>> the report.
>
> Four years ago I did in fact work on upgrading the HTML output to 4.1,
> but I then moved on the produce XHTML, and then ended up writing the
> XML output module. You could produce HTML 4.01 or XHTML using a
> relatively simple XSLT stylesheet.

This is in fact a good example of how analog could benefit from having a
few more builtin features (instead of leaving these to external bolt-on
tools).
In order to produce e.g. a report in XHTML, one need to run analog to
produce the XML report, then use saxon or xalan or some such with an
XSLT stylesheet.


/Per Jessen, Zürich

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All,

Here is the latest from W3C on the HTML 5 specification, an editor’s draft
dated August 24, 2007.

It would seem there is scope for XHTML 5 after all…

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#html-vs

But none of this has anything to do with Analog of course.

Rest assured that if somebody did want to pick up the further development of
this wonderful app and include a few of the features everyone is talking
about, that would always be fine with me. Otherwise we’d all still be using
DOS and SGML wouldn’t we?

I know, I know. Some of you still are…

:0)))

Paul


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Stephen Reppucci schrieb am 31.08.2007 20:34:

> Point being, it wouldn't be surprising to me if AWStats was full of
> holes, though just what type of security holes a log analysis tool could
> expose is unclear to me.

AWStats has a static mode, where it produces just html pages like analog
does. Plus (and this is the default mode), there is the dynamic mode where
pages are rendered by perl script on access. This is where the security
holes are. Advantage of the dynamic mode (I just use and know from one): You
can have "one" report where you got drop down boxes for months and year. You
don't have to create different static reports for each month.

Cheers,
Guenther

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