Mailing List Archive

Andrew Sawyers wrote:
> On 10/9/06 5:00 PM, "Lennart Regebro" <regebro@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10/9/06, Andrew Sawyers <andrew@sawdog.com> wrote:
>>> INSHO it has been known for quite sometime, but people are still trying to
>>> make progress in the only environment we can.
>> We can at this point only make progress by not trying to improve
>> zope.org, but by rebuilding it part by part in a microsite
>> organisation, where each site is separate and can be managed and
>> upgraded separately.
> Someone was seeking a solution, the solution I gave was quick and simple to
> answer the question being asked. Unless I'm volunteering, I won't turn
> people off of trying to do *something*.

As you well know, there are no quick solutions where the existing
zope.org is concerned.

>> I truly believe that, and will continue to repreat it like a broken
>> record until everybody agrees an kills me from frustration. :)
> I might be willing to do that :)
>
>
> Seriously though, if all that is desired is a microsite, all we need to do
> is setup a zwiki, point zwiki.zope.org to it. I believe Simon will do that?
> What about existing content? If so, lets just do it.

Come on. Remember NANZO? It's not something you can "just do".
If you want to "just do" something, Martijn is assembling volunteers.

Jim

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Jim Fulton wrote:
> That was yesterday:
>
> "Because zope.org is a brittle mess and I don't want to take a chance of making
> in worse. If someone who feels that they have some grasp on that software
> wants to help me, I'd be willing to try. "
>
> Perhaps you took so much offense at the first part of what I said,
> you didn't notice the second part.

Ah. No. I didn't understand - thought you were talking about a grasp on
zope.org's setup in general; and I didn't take offense at anything you
said. I don't see anything offensive there and I'm sorry if I come
across that way myself (but I'd rather risk a little of that than give
up). Yes: I want to help you upgrade zwiki.


> I don't know. Does ZWiki have any tendrils in CMF?

As far as I know, nothing that would affect CMF just from doing an upgrade.

Zwiki has a (manually invoked) upgradeAll method that adds some fields
to the catalog being used by a wiki (and reindexes all pages) for better
performance. I don't know which of the zope.org's wikis use a catalog,
and whether they share the global catalog or have their own; if shared,
this step could alter zope.org's memory usage, so I wouldn't do it right
now.


> Has the version
> of ZWiki used on zope.org been modified in any way to work with the
> CMF? I don't know.

I believe it's standard Zwiki 0.21.1. One security patch might have been
applied from a later release (the no_dtml option) ? No I think it was not.


> Oh, BTW, zope.org runs some revision of the Zope 2.6 branch.
> Does the latest ZWiki work with that?

No; it needs at least 2.7. You point out a problem I'd forgotten about.

The latest Zwiki that works with 2.6 is 0.28 (or 0.34 with a little
extra work). That's not a huge improvement on 0.21, perhaps not worth
the upgrade effort. So I guess a zope upgrade must come first.

Thanks,
-Simon

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> Seriously though, if all that is desired is a microsite, all we need to do
> is setup a zwiki, point zwiki.zope.org to it. I believe Simon will do that?

I'd rather have zope.org/zope foundation own this - I don't want to be a
bottleneck. But this does sound like a good interim option to try.

If there's interest I/we could harvest as many of the zope.org
pages/wikis as possible using Michael's list and work out some of the
hosting/content/cleanup issues as an independent task. This could be
moved to a new zope.org at some point in the future.

One problem would be duplicated content getting out of sync, but that
need not be a huge problem as there isn't much wiki editing going on
right now.

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On 10/9/06, Sidnei da Silva <sidnei@enfoldsystems.com> wrote:
> So, on your plan, how do you get the wikis from the current zope.org
> to wiki.zope.org? Manually?

If it is wiki.zope.org, then yes. :) wiki.zope.org should be another
name for zopewiki.org. If we want to update the current developers
wiki software but keep the data, another name (devwiki or wiki.dev)
should be used. Then the worst case scenario would be some sort of
import/export script.

--
Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/
CPS Content Management http://www.nuxeo.org/
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On 9 Oct 2006, at 17:10, Jim Fulton wrote:
>>> I'll repeat that our commercial cluster is not the right place to
>>> host
>>> zope.org. We can't really give volunteers the access to do what
>>> they need to
>>> do.
>> Please explain why? There is no commercial customers on the boxes
>> zope.org
>> services are on, outside of the load balancer and squid, which are
>> not
>> necessary to make progress until things can be moved.
>
> Because to do what people want to do, they think they need full sudo.
> I'm not sure this is necessary. For example, it's possible that
> it would be enough for many interesting tasks to give people
> the ability to sudo to the user zope. We could do that.
>
> Giving root access to those boxes is not a risk that we're willing
> to take.

It's strange how that never used to be a problem before, and all of a
sudden it is. Jim, remember us exchanging emails in 2005 about
providing full sudo access for tasks like moving CMF from CVS to
Subversion? I still have that whole email exchange. There was no
discussion at all about full sudo access being a problem. Matter of
fact you were all for people stepping up to solve problems.

I would never have signed all those documents that gave me access as
a non-employee if I had known every root-access sysadmin task had to
be approved by ZC. If you take a look at http://www.zope.org/About
there is a specific systems admin group mentioned. That's what I
thought I signed up for. I guess I was mistaken.

jens

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Come on Jim - there were people offering to help you. The roadblocks here
are wearisome. It's either procedure or someone who can't help stifling
things. Lets just make forward progress. We made some today; I am happy.
Andrew

On 10/9/06 5:18 PM, "Jim Fulton" <jim@zope.com> wrote:

> Andrew Sawyers wrote:
>> On 10/9/06 5:00 PM, "Lennart Regebro" <regebro@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/9/06, Andrew Sawyers <andrew@sawdog.com> wrote:
>>>> INSHO it has been known for quite sometime, but people are still trying to
>>>> make progress in the only environment we can.
>>> We can at this point only make progress by not trying to improve
>>> zope.org, but by rebuilding it part by part in a microsite
>>> organisation, where each site is separate and can be managed and
>>> upgraded separately.
>> Someone was seeking a solution, the solution I gave was quick and simple to
>> answer the question being asked. Unless I'm volunteering, I won't turn
>> people off of trying to do *something*.
>
> As you well know, there are no quick solutions where the existing
> zope.org is concerned.
>
>>> I truly believe that, and will continue to repreat it like a broken
>>> record until everybody agrees an kills me from frustration. :)
>> I might be willing to do that :)
>>
>>
>> Seriously though, if all that is desired is a microsite, all we need to do
>> is setup a zwiki, point zwiki.zope.org to it. I believe Simon will do that?
>> What about existing content? If so, lets just do it.
>
> Come on. Remember NANZO? It's not something you can "just do".
> If you want to "just do" something, Martijn is assembling volunteers.
>
> Jim


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Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
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> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> On 9 Oct 2006, at 17:10, Jim Fulton wrote:
>>>> I'll repeat that our commercial cluster is not the right place to host
>>>> zope.org. We can't really give volunteers the access to do what
>>>> they need to
>>>> do.
>>> Please explain why? There is no commercial customers on the boxes
>>> zope.org
>>> services are on, outside of the load balancer and squid, which are not
>>> necessary to make progress until things can be moved.
>>
>> Because to do what people want to do, they think they need full sudo.
>> I'm not sure this is necessary. For example, it's possible that
>> it would be enough for many interesting tasks to give people
>> the ability to sudo to the user zope. We could do that.
>>
>> Giving root access to those boxes is not a risk that we're willing
>> to take.
>
> It's strange how that never used to be a problem before, and all of a
> sudden it is. Jim, remember us exchanging emails in 2005 about providing
> full sudo access for tasks like moving CMF from CVS to Subversion?

Nope, but I'll take you're word for it.

> I
> still have that whole email exchange. There was no discussion at all
> about full sudo access being a problem. Matter of fact you were all for
> people stepping up to solve problems.

I still am.

> I would never have signed all those documents that gave me access as a
> non-employee if I had known every root-access sysadmin task had to be
> approved by ZC. If you take a look at http://www.zope.org/About there is
> a specific systems admin group mentioned. That's what I thought I signed
> up for. I guess I was mistaken.

This isn't my call.

I'm not going to judge whether it is right or wrong.

I'll just reiterate that zope.org needs to move.

Jim

--
Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered!
CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org
Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org
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