Mailing List Archive

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On 03/11/2014 01:39 AM, Jean Jordaan wrote:

> I've been unsubscribed from the Zope mailing lists due to "excessive
> bounces". So for some reason despite my clicking "ignore, I trust this
> message" 100s of times, gmail doesn't like the mails zope.org sends.

Some mail appears to be coming from a host (hetzner04.zopefoundation.org)
which is not one of our MX hosts:

$ dig -t MX zope.org
...
;; ANSWER SECTION:
zope.org. 600 IN MX 0 mail.zope.org.
zope.org. 600 IN MX 5 mail2.zope.org.


Our SPF record says that mail should only be coming from them, so Google
is bouncing those messages. We need either to fix it so that mail comes
from the 'mail.zope.org' IP, or else add the other host to our MX list.

> When I try to visit the mailing list web interface, Firefox is
> stopped in its tracks by "Secure Connection Failed An error occurred
> during a connection to mail.zope.org. The OCSP server has no status
> for the certificate. (Error code: sec_error_ocsp_unknown_cert)"

There are two problems with HTTPS on mail.zope.org: our own certificate
is expired, and the issuer (StartCom) has an intermediate certificate
which expired even longer ago:

http://www.sslshopper.com/ssl-checker.html#hostname=mail.zope.org/

> When I try to use the "Kontakt" (sic) form at http://zope.org/, it
> pops up an empty div: "<div class="pb-ajax"><div></div></div>".

Ugh, I don't recall now where the software lives for that. CC'ing the
infrastructure list to verify.


Tres.
- --
===================================================================
Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver@palladion.com
Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com
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_______________________________________________
Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
(Related lists -
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )

On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Tres Seaver <tseaver@palladion.com> wrote:
>> When I try to visit the mailing list web interface, Firefox is
>> stopped in its tracks by "Secure Connection Failed An error occurred
>> during a connection to mail.zope.org. The OCSP server has no status
>> for the certificate. (Error code: sec_error_ocsp_unknown_cert)"
>
> There are two problems with HTTPS on mail.zope.org: our own certificate
> is expired, and the issuer (StartCom) has an intermediate certificate
> which expired even longer ago:
>
> http://www.sslshopper.com/ssl-checker.html#hostname=mail.zope.org/

I hope there is some luck folks having with resolving this. One can
always take the approach Jim took with ZODB-dev, moving it to Google
Groups, but there is real value in the archives regardless of where
the current lists live. And the archives are de-facto inaccessible
now -- if nothing else, the archives could be hosted on any static
HTTP site and would not need any SSL/TLS/certificate burden.

Sean
_______________________________________________
Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
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On Tue, 2014-03-11 at 17:12 -0400, Tres Seaver wrote:
> On 03/11/2014 01:39 AM, Jean Jordaan wrote:
> > When I try to use the "Kontakt" (sic) form at http://zope.org/, it
> > pops up an empty div: "<div class="pb-ajax"><div></div></div>".
>
> Ugh, I don't recall now where the software lives for that. CC'ing the
> infrastructure list to verify.

i've done the zope.org implementation together with michael
haubenwallner in 2010. it's a Plone 4 website. since then, not much
happened. i'd be happy to get some help with maintaining this.

this is the theme/integration package:
https://github.com/d2m/plonetheme.zopeorg
and here is the buildout:
http://svn.zope.org/zopeorg.buildout/branches/www.zope.org/


--
programmatic web development
di(fh) johannes raggam / thet
python plone zope development
plone framework team member
mail: office@programmatic.pro
web: http://programmatic.pro
http://bluedynamics.com

On Tue, 2014-03-11 at 17:07 -0600, Sean Upton wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Tres Seaver <tseaver@palladion.com> wrote:
> >> When I try to visit the mailing list web interface, Firefox is
> >> stopped in its tracks by "Secure Connection Failed An error occurred
> >> during a connection to mail.zope.org. The OCSP server has no status
> >> for the certificate. (Error code: sec_error_ocsp_unknown_cert)"
> >
> > There are two problems with HTTPS on mail.zope.org: our own certificate
> > is expired, and the issuer (StartCom) has an intermediate certificate
> > which expired even longer ago:
> >
> > http://www.sslshopper.com/ssl-checker.html#hostname=mail.zope.org/
>
> I hope there is some luck folks having with resolving this. One can
> always take the approach Jim took with ZODB-dev, moving it to Google
> Groups, but there is real value in the archives regardless of where
> the current lists live. And the archives are de-facto inaccessible
> now -- if nothing else, the archives could be hosted on any static
> HTTP site and would not need any SSL/TLS/certificate burden.

+1

>
> Sean
> _______________________________________________
> Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
> ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
> (Related lists -
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )

--
programmatic web development
di(fh) johannes raggam / thet
python plone zope development
plone framework team member
mail: office@programmatic.pro
web: http://programmatic.pro
http://bluedynamics.com

It might be better if the whole zope project is handed over to somebody willing to move it forward.

It’s pretty obvious the various parts that make up the community like mailing lists, website, forums etc have been dead or dying for a long time.

Will Zope ever get back to 2005-2006 levels…? See : http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=zope


Rich

On 11 Mar 2014, at 23:07, Sean Upton <sdupton@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Tres Seaver <tseaver@palladion.com> wrote:
>>> When I try to visit the mailing list web interface, Firefox is
>>> stopped in its tracks by "Secure Connection Failed An error occurred
>>> during a connection to mail.zope.org. The OCSP server has no status
>>> for the certificate. (Error code: sec_error_ocsp_unknown_cert)"
>>
>> There are two problems with HTTPS on mail.zope.org: our own certificate
>> is expired, and the issuer (StartCom) has an intermediate certificate
>> which expired even longer ago:
>>
>> http://www.sslshopper.com/ssl-checker.html#hostname=mail.zope.org/
>
> I hope there is some luck folks having with resolving this. One can
> always take the approach Jim took with ZODB-dev, moving it to Google
> Groups, but there is real value in the archives regardless of where
> the current lists live. And the archives are de-facto inaccessible
> now -- if nothing else, the archives could be hosted on any static
> HTTP site and would not need any SSL/TLS/certificate burden.
>
> Sean
> _______________________________________________
> Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
> ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
> (Related lists -
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )

_______________________________________________
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https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
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On 12 Mar 2014, at 10:05, zopyxfilter@gmail.com wrote:

> Rich Harley wrote:
>> It might be better if the whole zope project is handed over to somebody willing to move it forward.
>
> The whole Zope project is as open as an open-source project can be.

It’s not that Zope isn’t as open source as it can be, it’s that anyone building a new application will not use Zope, which is clearly a problem for longevity since in another 3 years there will be even less people using Zope as more and more legacy applications get rewritten.

Personally we are very embedded with Zope 2.11. It’s excellent for what we are using it for and we are incredibly grateful of the community that built that product over the last 10 years. We use Zope in a very simple way for just holding python code, handling roles and connecting out to a Postgres DB but there are other frameworks which would do the same thing in a leaner way now. Still, we are not looking to rewrite because it does what we need well, although the version control is more hassle than it should be.

> What is the problem here?

The problem is how to attract new developers to rebuild a Zope fit for life from 2015+. That would mean making the framework more modern in every sense but still retaining the features that made Zope great in the past like excellent security handling and a quick development cycle. This is not an easy task and would probably involve some rebranding as the Zope name is now associated with an old framework.


> The decade of the large application servers and frameworks is over.

Possibly but Zope could have moved with the times and evolved with the momentum it had 5 years ago instead of being usurped by frameworks like Django and Turbogears which any python dev would choose over Zope in a heartbeat these days if they wanted to build a scalable application. This is what needs to be addressed - or is it your opinion that Zope will die and there’s nothing we can do about it? That seems a shame to me.

Rich



>
>>
>> It’s pretty obvious the various parts that make up the community like mailing lists, website, forums etc have been dead or dying for a long time.
>>
>> Will Zope ever get back to 2005-2006 levels…? See : http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=zope
>>
>
>
> -aj

_______________________________________________
Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
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On 12 Mar 2014, at 11:08, zopyxfilter@gmail.com wrote:

> Rich Harley wrote:
>> On 12 Mar 2014, at 10:05, zopyxfilter@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Rich Harley wrote:
>>>> It might be better if the whole zope project is handed over to somebody willing to move it forward.
>>> The whole Zope project is as open as an open-source project can be.
>>
>> It’s not that Zope isn’t as open source as it can be,
>
> Why?

I am not disputing Zope is/was a great open source project.


>
>>
>> The problem is how to attract new developers to rebuild a Zope fit for life from 2015+. That would mean making the framework more modern in every sense but still retaining the features that made Zope great in the past like excellent security handling and a quick development cycle. This is not an easy task and would probably involve some rebranding as the Zope name is now associated with an old framework.
>>
>>
>>> The decade of the large application servers and frameworks is over.
>>
>> Possibly but Zope could have moved with the times and evolved with the momentum it had 5 years ago instead of being usurped by frameworks like Django and Turbogears which any python dev would choose over Zope in a heartbeat these days if they wanted to build a scalable application. This is what needs to be addressed - or is it your opinion that Zope will die and there’s nothing we can do about it? That seems a shame to me.
>
> Zope lives as long as someone uses it (Plone uses it).

Plone is going the same way of declining usage and development over the last 3-5 years.

> Apart from that:
> the project live from the contributions and contributors. The Zope
> world is kind of a legacy and it is unlikely at this will change.
> Keep it alive somehow to the point as you need by taking over
> responsibility. Do you step up for a particular task?

Good response:) No I don’t step up right now, too busy with our own codebase. But we would love to take the project forward in the future when we are a bigger company.

Is the Zope 4 project still alive that was talked about in 2011?










>
> Andreas

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You were misunderstanding me, I am not claiming that. I said "It’s not that Zope isn’t as open source as it can be, it’s that anyone building a new application will not use Zope”

I am saying there is nothing wrong with the open sourceness of Zope. That wasn’t very clear, apologies.

My concerns are solely around Zope moving forward over the next few years and how we can best achieve a community feel around Zope - or a deviate of Zope -once again.

Rich




On 12 Mar 2014, at 11:43, zopyxfilter@gmail.com wrote:

> Rich Harley wrote:
>>
>> On 12 Mar 2014, at 11:08, zopyxfilter@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Rich Harley wrote:
>>>> On 12 Mar 2014, at 10:05, zopyxfilter@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Rich Harley wrote:
>>>>>> It might be better if the whole zope project is handed over to somebody willing to move it forward.
>>>>> The whole Zope project is as open as an open-source project can be.
>>>> It’s not that Zope isn’t as open source as it can be,
>>> Why?
>>
>> I am not disputing Zope is/was a great open source project.
>
> Why do you claim that "Zope is not as open as it can be"? What is
> missing? Where is Zope not open? Please be specific.
>
>
> -aj
>

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On 03/11/2014 05:12 PM, Tres Seaver wrote:
> Our SPF record says that mail should only be coming from them, so
> Google is bouncing those messages. We need either to fix it so that
> mail comes from the 'mail.zope.org' IP, or else add the other host to
> our MX list.

I just double-checked, and the SPF record looks right:

- ------------------------ %< ----------------------
$ dig -t TXT zope.org

; <<>> DiG 9.8.1-P1 <<>> -t TXT zope.org
;; global options: +cmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 34927
;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0

;; QUESTION SECTION:
;zope.org. IN TXT

;; ANSWER SECTION:
zope.org. 600 IN TXT "v=spf1 mx a:cvs.zope.org a:grok.zope.org
a:hetzner04.zopefoundation.org -all"
- ------------------------ %< ----------------------

The 'hetzner04.zopefoundation.org' IP is the one that list mail appears
to come from: it should pass the SPF check.


Tres.
- --
===================================================================
Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver@palladion.com
Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com
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On 03/12/2014 11:20 AM, Tres Seaver wrote:
> On 03/11/2014 05:12 PM, Tres Seaver wrote:
>> Our SPF record says that mail should only be coming from them, so
>> Google is bouncing those messages. We need either to fix it so
>> that mail comes from the 'mail.zope.org' IP, or else add the other
>> host to our MX list.
>
> I just double-checked, and the SPF record looks right:

Encolpe Degoute replied to my off-list with information that Google and
others may be requiring DKIM for some kinds of sneders.

- - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DomainKeys_Identified_Mail

- - http://www.dkim.org/


- --
===================================================================
Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver@palladion.com
Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com
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On 03/11/2014 05:12 PM, Tres Seaver wrote:
> There are two problems with HTTPS on mail.zope.org: our own
> certificate is expired, and the issuer (StartCom) has an intermediate
> certificate which expired even longer ago:
>
> http://www.sslshopper.com/ssl-checker.html#hostname=mail.zope.org/

I have added a new certificate and updated the intermediates. Chromium
is now happy with https://mail.zope.org/, as is SSL Shopper:

http://www.sslshopper.com/ssl-checker.html#hostname=mail.zope.org

but Firefox will likely be unhappy over the next 6 - 12 hours due to OCSP
propagation delay:

https://forum.startcom.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2654



Tres.
- --
===================================================================
Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver@palladion.com
Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com
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